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  #401  
Old 01-27-2019, 10:05 AM
Irishman Irishman is offline
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Originally Posted by Budget Player Cadet View Post
I've made Züricher Geschnetzeltes that's less rich and white than hiring a PR firm to handle your son being part of a racist, misogynistic mob.
I will agree it is upper middle class to rich to hire a PR firm, but I maintain it is a sensible way to address unfair portrayals of your son's actions. The kid just stood there. Phillips walked into the crowd and directly up to him. Sandmann didn't move out of the way because he didn't know what to do, so he wanted to stay still and calm and smile to let Phillips know he wasn't a threat. Phillips could have walked around him, or back out the way he came, or any other direction, but didn't even try to do so. Yet you are making the kid out to be a racist and misogynist because he wore a MAGA hat and attended a Right to Life rally.

Let's be clear - you have no record of this kid doing anything - yelling at women, saying racist comments, getting violent... none of it. Yet he's evil for hiring a PR firm to address a PR situation that falsely shows him in a negative light.

Let's ask this - if you were in his family's shoes, how would you address the negative PR and negative social media onslaught for an unfair portrayal?

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Originally Posted by Procrustus View Post
I suppose I am in a bubble. I don't interact with anyone who I know or suspect voted for, or supports, President Trump. ( Other than here at the SDMB)
I find this unlikely. I have relatives that voted for Trump and support his positions. Though interestingly, one of my more conservative uncle's who is a bit racist doesn't like Trump. Go figure. Anyway, Velocity said it better. You likely interact with people at work or school or stores or just generally in your life that voted for Trump, and support his positions, even if they don't wear a MAGA hat or bring it up in conversation.

Quote:
The very idea is still incomprehensible to me. Literally. I can not comprehend.

I do understand the problems people are facing. To believe Trump is anyway connected to solving those problems is the mystifying part.
I'm, with you there.
  #402  
Old 01-27-2019, 03:18 PM
RaftPeople RaftPeople is offline
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Originally Posted by Irishman View Post
I will agree it is upper middle class to rich to hire a PR firm, but I maintain it is a sensible way to address unfair portrayals of your son's actions. The kid just stood there. Phillips walked into the crowd and directly up to him. Sandmann didn't move out of the way because he didn't know what to do, so he wanted to stay still and calm and smile to let Phillips know he wasn't a threat. Phillips could have walked around him, or back out the way he came, or any other direction, but didn't even try to do so. Yet you are making the kid out to be a racist and misogynist because he wore a MAGA hat and attended a Right to Life rally.

Let's be clear - you have no record of this kid doing anything - yelling at women, saying racist comments, getting violent... none of it. Yet he's evil for hiring a PR firm to address a PR situation that falsely shows him in a negative light.
Agree with this.

It's hard to understand how someone can watch the longer video and come to such biased and non-factual conclusions as I'm seeing in this thread. It's frankly a little scary.

I saw on some news item that Phillips "forgives" the kid. WTF? For what exactly? Just absolutely bizarre.
  #403  
Old 01-28-2019, 12:38 AM
Urbanredneck Urbanredneck is offline
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Originally Posted by RaftPeople View Post
Agree with this.

It's hard to understand how someone can watch the longer video and come to such biased and non-factual conclusions as I'm seeing in this thread. It's frankly a little scary.

I saw on some news item that Phillips "forgives" the kid. WTF? For what exactly? Just absolutely bizarre.
He is guilty of not taking his hat off, throwing it to the ground, stomping on it, while all the time bowing down to Phillips and apologizing for being white and apologizing that his people killed his people and so on and so on...

I wonder if even then Phillips would have been happy?
  #404  
Old 01-28-2019, 12:45 AM
Procrustus Procrustus is online now
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Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
Even in the most liberal cities, around 15-20% of people voted for Trump. Some of your co-workers or neighbors or mailmen or store clerks or doctors or whoever are statistically likely to be Trump voters, no doubt, even if they don't wear MAGA hats or anything that screams Trump.
I’m sure there are some. But not my coworkers. And none of my relatives (Except my mother in law, but we don’t discuss it.). So, yes, I probably run into Trump voters now and then. But I don’t think I’ve ever run into anyone in real life who admitted it (one taxi driver in Vegas is the exception that proves the rule )
  #405  
Old 01-28-2019, 06:34 PM
doorhinge doorhinge is offline
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Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
He is guilty of not taking his hat off, throwing it to the ground, stomping on it, while all the time bowing down to Phillips and apologizing for being white and apologizing that his people killed his people and so on and so on...

I wonder if even then Phillips would have been happy?
Not likely. Team Phillips was probably very happy that someone in the main stream media was finally paying attention to them, and their cause.

Last edited by doorhinge; 01-28-2019 at 06:35 PM.
  #406  
Old 01-28-2019, 06:43 PM
doorhinge doorhinge is offline
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...nope. I'm literally saying the opposite of that.

And you live in a bubble as well. The difference between you and I though is that you can't admit it.

What is it, exactly, do you think "living in a bubble" means, and why do you think you are uniquely immune?

You are welcome to believe whatever the fuck you want to believe.
Perhaps, in your spare time, you could provide a definition of what you mean when you say you live in a bubble. Just for the purpose of clarification, of course.
  #407  
Old 01-30-2019, 08:05 AM
Hamlet Hamlet is offline
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Let's be clear - you have no record of this kid doing anything - yelling at women, saying racist comments, getting violent... none of it.
If the kid had been there alone, I would agree with much of what you said. Take away the dozens of other white, privileged teenagers who were openly mocking Phillips with chants, dancing, and tomahawk chops and you'd have one kid, standing alone smirking, who is approached by a Indigenous person who played his drum and chanted too close for comfort at the kid (I know, horrible crime right?). You need to completely ignore everyone else except that one kid to buy into the current narrative the right is trying to sell. Ignore what you actually saw, focus only one person, and vilify a guy for playing a hand-drum and chanting too close.

The problem with that rips any context away from what actually occurred. It ignores the racist mocking that Phillips was subjected to. It ignores the tension between the teens and the other idiots that Phillips was trying to defuse. And it ignores the difference between how a person acts alone, and when surrounded by a group of like-minded people.

Of all the assholes in the video, the kid was clearly much less blameworthy than much of the group. After all, all he did was allow others to do the racist mocking and then smirk at a guy. It's the problem of trying to simplfy a chaotic event and find a good guy and a bad guy that caused his vilification. But it also ignores everything else we actually saw in the video.
  #408  
Old 01-30-2019, 03:50 PM
doorhinge doorhinge is offline
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Originally Posted by Banquet Bear View Post
...nope. I'm literally saying the opposite of that.

And you live in a bubble as well. The difference between you and I though is that you can't admit it.

What is it, exactly, do you think "living in a bubble" means, and why do you think you are uniquely immune?

You are welcome to believe whatever the fuck you want to believe.
HEY Banquet Bear!!!!! How about a little help here. You brought it up. I'm trying to understand how to speak New Zealand. What do you mean when you say, "live in a bubble"?
  #409  
Old 02-04-2019, 06:02 PM
Irishman Irishman is offline
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Originally Posted by Hamlet View Post
If the kid had been there alone, I would agree with much of what you said. Take away the dozens of other white, privileged teenagers who were openly mocking Phillips with chants, dancing, and tomahawk chops and you'd have one kid, standing alone smirking, who is approached by a Indigenous person who played his drum and chanted too close for comfort at the kid (I know, horrible crime right?). You need to completely ignore everyone else except that one kid to buy into the current narrative the right is trying to sell. Ignore what you actually saw, focus only one person, and vilify a guy for playing a hand-drum and chanting too close.
I'm not trying to "vilify" Phillips, or anyone (except maybe the racist instigators - the Black Hebrews or whatever). I'm describing accurately what happened. It's Urbanredneck and the like that are twisting things the other way.

Yes, there was a crowd of teens who, as a group, were rowdy and disrespectful and standing for opinions I don't support ("MAGA", pro-life). But the media (especially social media) singled out this one kid as the symbol of all that was wrong in that interaction and treated him like the social media does - hate and disparagement and threats of violence. When in fact the Native Americans were just as much to blame for the weird conflict.
  #410  
Old 02-05-2019, 04:24 PM
Sam Stone Sam Stone is offline
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News flash: Large group of kids on a field trip has a few unruly members. Stop the presses. Destroy them.
  #411  
Old 02-05-2019, 05:56 PM
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Snowboarder Bo Snowboarder Bo is offline
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Originally Posted by Sam Stone View Post
News flash: Large group of kids on a field trip has a few unruly members. Stop the presses. Destroy them.
News flash: Large group of kids is shot at and killed while in their own school. Stop the presses. Destroy them.
  #412  
Old 02-05-2019, 08:10 PM
doorhinge doorhinge is offline
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Originally Posted by Snowboarder Bo View Post
News flash: Large group of kids is shot at and killed while in their own school. Stop the presses. Destroy them.
Is that what the lame stream media, and racists, were hoping would happen when they began vilifying a teenager for simply standing on a step at the Lincoln Memorial when an old man tried to bully him into standing aside?
  #413  
Old 02-05-2019, 08:17 PM
Procrustus Procrustus is online now
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Originally Posted by doorhinge View Post
Is that what the lame stream media, and racists, were hoping would happen when they began vilifying a teenager for simply standing on a step at the Lincoln Memorial when an old man tried to bully him into standing aside?
You left out the part about his offensive headwear.
  #414  
Old 02-06-2019, 12:58 PM
Gyrate Gyrate is offline
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Is that what the lame stream media, and racists, were hoping would happen when they began vilifying a teenager for simply standing on a step at the Lincoln Memorial when an old man tried to bully him into standing aside?
It's hard to speculate about what imaginary people would have done in a hypothetical situation.

On the other hand, actual right-wing media and actual right-wing politicians and actual right-wing posters on this messageboard engaged in an extended campaign of vilification of actual students after they were actually shot at and, in some cases, actually killed in their own schools. But at least they weren't criticised for their hats.
  #415  
Old 02-06-2019, 09:03 PM
doorhinge doorhinge is offline
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Originally Posted by Procrustus View Post
You left out the part about his offensive headwear.
Haters will find anything to justify their hating. The old man didn't chose to bully the teenager because of a cap.
  #416  
Old 02-06-2019, 09:07 PM
doorhinge doorhinge is offline
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Originally Posted by Gyrate View Post
It's hard to speculate about what imaginary people would have done in a hypothetical situation.

On the other hand, actual right-wing media and actual right-wing politicians and actual right-wing posters on this messageboard engaged in an extended campaign of vilification of actual students after they were actually shot at and, in some cases, actually killed in their own schools. But at least they weren't criticised for their hats.
But, "Has the media misrepresented the incident with the Covington Cathlic kids?" I believe that the answer to the OP's question is, Yes.
  #417  
Old 02-06-2019, 10:18 PM
BeenJammin BeenJammin is offline
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I believe that the answer to the OP's question is, Yes.
What if we say NO! often enough and loud enough?

Sadly, the outcome to this type scenario really can go either way these days - no different than ever, just happens faster and harder now.
  #418  
Old 02-07-2019, 06:24 AM
Batano Batano is offline
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I'm not sure why is it's so hard for liberals to say we over-reacted to the video. We saw a story that fit out narrative and ran with it. It's the same thing that happens with right-wing memes like Comet Pizza, Benghazi, Vince Foster, birtherism, etc.

The moral is that all of us should take a deep breath before we share viral videos. It's bad when the right shares bullshit it and it's bad when the left does it as well.

Yeah the kid had a MAGA hat. A lot of us had Mao shirts when we were younger, and he turned out to be a mass murderer.
  #419  
Old 02-07-2019, 08:21 AM
Hamlet Hamlet is offline
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Originally Posted by Sam Stone View Post
News flash: Large group of kids on a field trip has a few unruly members. Stop the presses. Destroy them.
I'll go out on a limb and say "unruly" is selling the conduct of the group and their racist mocking of Phillips and his group way short. But, as always, YMMV. Boys will be boys after all.

Last edited by Hamlet; 02-07-2019 at 08:21 AM.
  #420  
Old 02-07-2019, 08:34 AM
JRDelirious JRDelirious is offline
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Maybe the young man simply suffers from Resting Smug Smirk Face a.k.a. Shkreli's Disease.


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Originally Posted by Batano View Post
I'm not sure why is it's so hard for liberals to say we over-reacted to the video. We saw a story that fit out narrative and ran with it. It's the same thing that happens with right-wing memes like Comet Pizza, Benghazi, Vince Foster, birtherism, etc.
That is reflection of another narrative: The one where the Right Wing stands fast and doubles down when called out on their memes, and it does not hurt them, while the Left Wing folds and puts on sackcloth and ashes when called out on ours, and we end up the worse for it.
  #421  
Old 02-07-2019, 12:57 PM
Sam Stone Sam Stone is offline
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Originally Posted by Batano View Post
I'm not sure why is it's so hard for liberals to say we over-reacted to the video. We saw a story that fit out narrative and ran with it. It's the same thing that happens with right-wing memes like Comet Pizza, Benghazi, Vince Foster, birtherism, etc.

The moral is that all of us should take a deep breath before we share viral videos. It's bad when the right shares bullshit it and it's bad when the left does it as well.

Yeah the kid had a MAGA hat. A lot of us had Mao shirts when we were younger, and he turned out to be a mass murderer.
He didn't just 'turn out' to be a mass murderer: He was a well known mass murderer at the time you were wearing his shirt. And young progressives today still wear Mao caps and Che Guevera hipster wear. My kid's social studies classroom had a poster of Che Guevera just a couple of years ago.

I'll put up a MAGA hat any time against a shirt depicting the loving iconography of a mass murderer. How 'safe' would you feel if you were a Cuban refugee in college and were forced to look at T-shirts celebrating the man who cheered while your friends and family were shot in the back of the head?
  #422  
Old 02-07-2019, 01:17 PM
doorhinge doorhinge is offline
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What if we say NO! often enough and loud enough?
(post shortened)

Nothing would change. Neither side is actually listening to what the other side has to say. Yellow dog Democrats actually tell each other not to talk to the other side. Facts no longer matter, actions can/will be spun, haters will continue to hate, etc. Unfortunately, this is now considered SNAFU.

Last edited by doorhinge; 02-07-2019 at 01:17 PM.
  #423  
Old 02-11-2019, 02:01 AM
phxjcc phxjcc is offline
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...I'm an SJW. The "Fakestream media" or whatever the fuck you want to call it is not on my side. If they were on my side then they would be in the process of furiously changing the narrative of this story, throwing Phillips under the bus, and elevating the Covington Kids to sainthood. They aren't on my side. They are on "both sides." And that is the fucking problem.
This is the best statement.

It is all about ratings and clicks, which drives revenue.

You REALLY think that editorial content is presented without ratings consideration.?

Seriously?

Watch the news with a stop watch.

When a story comes on that DIRECTLY affects you health, wealth, safety, warmth then time it.

The murder in the next town? Nope
Trump saying something stupid? Nope
Bezos shows off his d!ck? Nope
Pelosi saying something stupid? Nope
Town expanding library hours? Yup
Apple releasing iWhizbang 25.12 next week? Nope
Carco recalling 3 million 2014-2019 econoboxes? Maybe
Iron man 13 sets box office record? Nope
Sports? Nope
Cute puppy gets adopted? Nope
Stock report? Yup
Weather? Yup
Old couple celebrates 50 anniversary skydiving? Nope

All the rest is grand drama to retain your interest.
And get you to buy the iWhizbang and see Ironman 13...which coincidentally have miraculously supplied commercials during the newscast.

This is why Paley didn't want the news division to be a revenue center.

Sheep get sheared, pigs get slaughtered.

FFS.

Log off, shutdown and go talk to someone that you disagree with.

Then you might really learn something.

They might also.

It's a start.

Because all of the foregoing?

Mental masturbation.

But I am warm in my sweater and enjoy the bacon.
  #424  
Old 02-11-2019, 11:54 AM
BeenJammin BeenJammin is offline
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This is the best statement.
Both sides? No side? Because why? What is their motivation? Simple - same as EVERYONE else: Payday! Woo HOO!! What gets me the most $$$$? Validity? Truth? Bollocks, we don't care, just give us the money.

All the while we'll continue browbeating you with the tired old "fair and balanced" bullshit and other similar slogans designed to channel your thought process. It's not the truth that matters - only what you "think."
  #425  
Old 02-11-2019, 12:22 PM
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I'm not sure why is it's so hard for liberals to say we over-reacted to the video. We saw a story that fit out narrative and ran with it.
Because we didn't. That's the conservative narrative about what happened. But the actually true narrative is that all of this additional context did not substantially change anything. Where it has changed things, we have backed down.

But the conservative narrative is that we're all SJWs who saw something that looked racist and assumed it was racist when in fact it never was. But that story DID NOT HAPPEN. But since we won't give in and say that's what happened, the narrative of the stubborn liberals who won't admit they are wrong is spreading.

Unless we say "the college kids did nothing wrong," we are called the bad guys. And we won't lie, so we are called the bad guys.

That's just the way it is, and hopefully we can have the character to remain steadfast in this, rather than buckle because the media this time decided to give into the conservative narrative.

Last edited by BigT; 02-11-2019 at 12:24 PM.
  #426  
Old 02-11-2019, 12:52 PM
Velocity Velocity is online now
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What were the Covington kids supposed to do when Phillips approached? Take off their hats and bow?
  #427  
Old 02-11-2019, 02:05 PM
Shodan Shodan is online now
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What were the Covington kids supposed to do when Phillips approached? Take off their hats and bow?
They were supposed to be provoked into doing something that he could make hay out of. They didn't, so he had to lie about what they did.

He was trying to start an incident with the white kids in the MAGA hats. That's why he went up, not to the Black Israelites who were screaming racist and homophobic insults, but to the white kids.

Phillips was trying to create a narrative - racist fascist Trump supporters attack innocent Native American. The facts didn't fit the narrative. So he changed the facts, and the MSM ran with it. Because that narrative fit their preconceptions better than the facts.

Regards,
Shodan
  #428  
Old 02-11-2019, 04:11 PM
Sam Stone Sam Stone is offline
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Yep, People should actually read what he said. The 'peacemaker' says he was trying to protect the Black Israelites, who he described as 'prey', from the children, who he described as 'beasts'.

This is so twisted, so wrong that it makes me wonder if Nathan Phillips is actually crazy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan Phillips
They were in the process of attacking these four black individuals. I was there and I was witnessing all of this ... As this kept on going on and escalating, it just got to a point where you do something or you walk away, you know? You see something that is wrong and you're faced with that choice of right or wrong. "
...
"There was that moment when I realized I've put myself between beast and prey. These young men were beastly and these old black individuals was their prey, and I stood in between them and so they needed their pounds of flesh and they were looking at me for that."
Apparently the process for young children to attack four adult black men involves standing peacefully for about an hour while racist insults are thrown at them. And everyone knows that typical 'prey' behaviour is to find a predator and heckle it. And the 'pound of flesh' that kid extracted from Nathan Phillips appears to largely consist of standing still while having a drum beaten in his face.

Last edited by Sam Stone; 02-11-2019 at 04:12 PM.
  #429  
Old 02-11-2019, 05:00 PM
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Darren Garrison Darren Garrison is offline
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Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
Phillips was trying to create a narrative - racist fascist Trump supporters attack innocent Native American. The facts didn't fit the narrative. So he changed the facts, and the MSM ran with it.

And he is having his ass sued for it.
  #430  
Old 02-11-2019, 05:19 PM
Velocity Velocity is online now
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Yep, People should actually read what he said. The 'peacemaker' says he was trying to protect the Black Israelites, who he described as 'prey', from the children, who he described as 'beasts'.

This is so twisted, so wrong that it makes me wonder if Nathan Phillips is actually crazy.



Apparently the process for young children to attack four adult black men involves standing peacefully for about an hour while racist insults are thrown at them. And everyone knows that typical 'prey' behaviour is to find a predator and heckle it. And the 'pound of flesh' that kid extracted from Nathan Phillips appears to largely consist of standing still while having a drum beaten in his face.

Scarily, many people have the attitude of, "Who cares if the kids were harassing Phillips or not - the very fact that they were wearing MAGA hats makes them worthy of punishment."
  #431  
Old 02-11-2019, 05:19 PM
Urbanredneck Urbanredneck is offline
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Good. Maybe Phillips will think twice next time for being a jerk and thinking just because he's native american he's entitled to go around beating his drum in some kids face and lying about it later to get his name in the news.

Although I doubt Phillips has any money.
  #432  
Old 02-11-2019, 06:45 PM
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Because we didn't. That's the conservative narrative about what happened. But the actually true narrative is that all of this additional context did not substantially change anything. Where it has changed things, we have backed down.

But the conservative narrative is that we're all SJWs who saw something that looked racist and assumed it was racist when in fact it never was. But that story DID NOT HAPPEN. But since we won't give in and say that's what happened, the narrative of the stubborn liberals who won't admit they are wrong is spreading.

Unless we say "the college kids did nothing wrong," we are called the bad guys. And we won't lie, so we are called the bad guys.

That's just the way it is, and hopefully we can have the character to remain steadfast in this, rather than buckle because the media this time decided to give into the conservative narrative.

WHAT didn't happen? That the kids weren't harassing the old man? Because there was shown no proof of it. None whatsoever.

And how did it not change anything? You mean to tell me that the video was false, and they actually DID say "build the wall!"? And that the Black Israelites weren't really there? (BTW, both the ADL AND the SPLC have designated them a hate group).

They wore hats we didn't like. That's it. But they were not harassing some old man. Why wouldn't you be happy that it didn't happen?

Quote:
“The real test is this. Suppose one reads a story of filthy atrocities in the paper. Then suppose that something turns up suggesting that the story might not be quite true, or not quite so bad as it was made out. Is one’s first feeling, ‘Thank God, even they aren’t quite so bad as that,’ or is it a feeling of disappointment, and even a determination to cling to the first story for the sheer pleasure of thinking your enemies as bad as possible? If it is the second then it is, I am afraid, the first step in a process which, if followed to the end, will make us into devils.”

-C.S. Lewis


(Oh, and they were high school kids, not college kids)
  #433  
Old 02-11-2019, 06:59 PM
Sam Stone Sam Stone is offline
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And they weren't all wearing MAGA hats, either. From what I could see of that crowd, it was a small minority. And apparently those hats are for sale everywhere on the mall, So the few that had them probably purchased them there as souvenirs. The horror.
  #434  
Old 02-11-2019, 09:40 PM
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FWIW, I think the school should've told them to take the hats off. They were there to represent the school, and it would be a bad idea to try and display any kind of partisan symbol. I'd say the same thing about any kind of left-wing politician.

But then, I think if we're going to blame anyone, it should be the chaperones. They were adults, and supposed to be in charge of the whole thing. I don't know WHY they're not getting more heat than these kids. (In fact, I've hardly heard any complaints against them)
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