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Old 02-22-2019, 09:28 AM
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Your All-Time greatest team (any pro team sport)


PLEASE read the guidelines first:

Pick a professional team sport. American football, baseball, hockey, basketball, and association football (soccer) of course, but also any other pro team sport you may be knowledgeable about, like lacrosse or Canadian football or cricket or rugby or field hockey or whatever; if they've got a professional league and you know a lot about the players, you're welcome to participate.

Build your all-time greatest team. Starters and one backup for each position only. All players who have ever played professionally are eligible.

Players must be in their primary position (or "one of" if a player regularly played multiple positions professionally, e.g. Chris Davis pitched in an MLB game once in a pinch, but that doesn't make him as a pitcher, but he's played first base, third, and center field regularly and those do count), and each starting position must be represented, so no teams of like 9 center fielders or 22 QBs, not that I think anyone would want to do that.

For baseball specifically, we'll specify one right-handed and one left-handed starting pitcher, 3 relief pitchers, and a DH.

You may include a head coach/manager if you like.

I hope that all makes sense. Seems like it should be simple enough, but I always forget at least one important thing when I do this, so feel free to point that out. Everyone always does.
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Old 02-22-2019, 10:34 AM
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C - Josh Gibson (Johnny Bench)
1B - Buck Leonard (Albert Pujols)
2B - Jackie Robinson (Joe Morgan)
3B - Mike Schmidt (Wade Boggs)
SS - Honus Wagner (Alex Rodriguez)
LF - Ted Williams (Barry Bonds)
CF - Willie Mays (Oscar Charleston)
RF - Babe Ruth (Hank Aaron)
DH - Edgar Martinez (Frank Thomas)
SP-R - Walter Johnson (Satchel Paige)
SP-L - Randy Johnson (Lefty Grove)
RP - Mariano Rivera (Goose Gossage, Hoyt Wilhelm)
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Old 02-22-2019, 10:44 AM
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Center: 1976 Kareem, 2000 Shaq
Power Forward: 2003 Tim Duncan, 1993 Charles Barkley
Small Forward: 2007 LeBron, 1986 Larry Bird
Shooting Guard: 1992 Jordan, 2002 Kobe Bryant (or 2006 D-Wade. I could go either way on this one.)
Point Guard: 2015 Steph Curry, 1987 Magic Johnson (I thought really long and hard about this one - 5, 10 seconds, easy).
Coach: Popovich. Or Auerbach. I'd be happy either way.
GM: Jerry West

Last edited by JohnT; 02-22-2019 at 10:45 AM.
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Old 02-22-2019, 11:05 AM
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International Test Cricket (slight wrinkle - the alternates will only be I have actually seen, otherwise you'd likely just run down a stats sheet to select these sides)

1 Jack Hobbs (Matthew Hayden)
2 WG Grace (Alastair Cook)
3 Don Bradman (Ricky Ponting)
4 Sachin Tendulkar (Brian Lara)
5 Viv Richards (Kumar Sangakkara)
6 Garfield Sobers (Jacques Kallis)
7 Alan Knott (Adam Gilchrist) - both to keep wicket
8 Wasim Akram (Imran Khan)
9 Shane Warne (Curtly Ambrose)
10 Malcolm Marshall (Waqar Younis)
11 Glenn McGrath (Muttiah Muralitharan)
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Old 02-22-2019, 02:56 PM
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My NFL team (will skew heavily from the 80s forward because I'm not old enough to have ever seen, say, Jim Brown play; and I like the 4-3 defense):

QB Joe Montana (Dan Marino)
FB Franco Harris (John Riggins)
HB Barry Sanders (Walter Payton)
WR1 Jerry Rice (Randy Moss)
WR2 Art Monk (Calvin Johnson)
TE Tony Gonzalez (Antonio Gates)
LT Jonathan Ogden (Orlando Pace)
LG Larry Allen (Steve Hutchinson)
C Dwight Stephenson (Dermontti Dawson)
RG Russ Grimm (Gene Upshaw)
RT Walter Jones (Anthony Munoz)

DE Reggie White (Bruce Smith)
DT Warren Sapp (Geno Atkins)
DT John Randle (Aaron Donald)
DE Deacon Jones (J.J. Watt)
OLB1 Lawrence Taylor (Dick Butkus)
MLB Ray Lewis (Mike Singletary)
OLB2 Derrick Thomas (Derrick Brooks)
CB1 Deion Sanders (Champ Bailey)
CB2 Rod Woodson (Charles Woodson)
FS Ken Houston (Sean Taylor)
SS Ed Reed (Rodney Harrison)

K Morten Andersen (Adam Vinatieri)
P Sammy Baugh (Shane Lechler)
PR Devin Hester (Dante Hall)
KR Deion Sanders (Brian Mitchell)

HC Vince Lombardi (Joe Gibbs)
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Old 02-22-2019, 07:48 PM
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Center: 1976 Kareem, 2000 Shaq
Power Forward: 2003 Tim Duncan, 1993 Charles Barkley
Small Forward: 2007 LeBron, 1986 Larry Bird
Shooting Guard: 1992 Jordan, 2002 Kobe Bryant (or 2006 D-Wade. I could go either way on this one.)
Point Guard: 2015 Steph Curry, 1987 Magic Johnson (I thought really long and hard about this one - 5, 10 seconds, easy).
Coach: Popovich. Or Auerbach. I'd be happy either way.
GM: Jerry West
I decided to build a team to compete against this one. So no duplicates.

Center: 1962 Wilt Chamberlain; 1995 Hakeem Olajuwon
Power Forward: 1990 Karl Malone; 2004 Kevin Garnett
Small Forward: 2014 Kevin Durant; 1973 Julius Erving
Shooting Guard: 1995 Reggie Miller; 1969 John Havlicek
Point Guard: 1962 Oscar Robertson; 1991 John Stockton
Coach: Phil Jackson
GM: Jerry Reinsdorf

I still think my team would lose, but it'd be a good game.

Last edited by ekedolphin; 02-22-2019 at 07:48 PM.
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Old 02-22-2019, 07:53 PM
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It would be. However, I got a center with the most unstoppable 2-pt shot ever and I have a guard who is the greatest shooter ever, as well as another guard who is the greatest competitor ever. I like my chances.
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Old 02-22-2019, 08:14 PM
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It would be. However, I got a center with the most unstoppable 2-pt shot ever and I have a guard who is the greatest shooter ever, as well as another guard who is the greatest competitor ever. I like my chances.
Well, you did get first pick on every position in the entire history of the NBA, LOL.
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Old 02-22-2019, 08:24 PM
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I also think you have too many 60s guys who won't have the training or athleticism of the modern guys, and the only 3-pt specialist you have is Reggie Miller... and he's no Steph.

Are we playing with a 3pt shot?

I'd love to see prime Hakeem vs prime Shaq.

Biggest defensive liabilities: Curry and Erving. You'd kill me on screens, with Stockton/Malone teaming up again, but I have 2 legitimate 3-point threats, as well as Jordan who once hit 6 threes in a Finals game (the Shrug game). And LeBron.

Sorry, Bill Russell.
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Old 02-22-2019, 08:30 PM
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Well, you did get first pick on every position in the entire history of the NBA, LOL.
Like that's an advantage!

Great idea for threads though - 2 posters do a draft of the best players of each "league"*, then another thread with a poll on which team would win. NBA would be easy to do... want to try?

*Could even be done via PM, but what the fun is that?
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Old 02-22-2019, 10:11 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnT
Center: 1976 Kareem, 2000 Shaq
Power Forward: 2003 Tim Duncan, 1993 Charles Barkley
Small Forward: 2007 LeBron, 1986 Larry Bird
Shooting Guard: 1992 Jordan, 2002 Kobe Bryant (or 2006 D-Wade. I could go either way on this one.)
Point Guard: 2015 Steph Curry, 1987 Magic Johnson (I thought really long and hard about this one - 5, 10 seconds, easy).
Coach: Popovich. Or Auerbach. I'd be happy either way.
GM: Jerry West
Quote:
Originally Posted by ekedolphin View Post
I decided to build a team to compete against this one. So no duplicates.

Center: 1962 Wilt Chamberlain; 1995 Hakeem Olajuwon
Power Forward: 1990 Karl Malone; 2004 Kevin Garnett
Small Forward: 2014 Kevin Durant; 1973 Julius Erving
Shooting Guard: 1995 Reggie Miller; 1969 John Havlicek
Point Guard: 1962 Oscar Robertson; 1991 John Stockton
Coach: Phil Jackson
GM: Jerry Reinsdorf

I still think my team would lose, but it'd be a good game.
5: 1983 Moses Malone; 1996 Arvydas Sabonis
4: 2007 Dirk Nowitzki; 1987 Kevin McHale
3: 1992 Scottie Pippen; 2019 Giannis Antetokounmpo
2: 2001 Allen Iverson; 2006 Dwyane Wade
1: 1989 Isiah Thomas; 2006 Steve Nash
Coach Larry Brown
GM R.C. Buford

ekedolphin - you mean Jerry Krause, Reinsdorf was the owner.

Last edited by The Other Jeffrey Lebowski; 02-22-2019 at 10:12 PM.
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Old 02-23-2019, 10:28 AM
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I decided to build a team to compete against this one. So no duplicates.

Center: 1962 Wilt Chamberlain; 1995 Hakeem Olajuwon
Power Forward: 1990 Karl Malone; 2004 Kevin Garnett
Small Forward: 2014 Kevin Durant; 1973 Julius Erving
Shooting Guard: 1995 Reggie Miller; 1969 John Havlicek
Point Guard: 1962 Oscar Robertson; 1991 John Stockton
Coach: Phil Jackson
GM: Jerry Reinsdorf

I still think my team would lose, but it'd be a good game.
If we're playing with current rules, then against Shaq, don't you want a modern center, who's strong enough to at least slow Shaq down, but can knock down threes well enough to force him out of the paint on defense (and make all the other defenders worry about the pop as well as the roll)?
If Shaq hits 60% of his post-ups against Al Horford (probably not the first choice, but first to come to mind), but Horford hits 40% of his threes, that's even.

Likewise, either move Durant to the 4, or consider bringing in a modern 3-and-D guy. It's not like you need an unstoppable one-on-one power forward, with Durant and Reggie Miller on your team, right?
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Old 02-23-2019, 01:53 PM
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Davis Cup Tennis:

Roger Federer
Novak Djokovic
The Bryan Brothers


Nadal is definitely an option, but I have come around the last few years to the opinion that Novak may actually be the better player.
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Old 02-23-2019, 03:16 PM
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C - Josh Gibson (Johnny Bench)
1B - Buck Leonard (Albert Pujols)
2B - Jackie Robinson (Joe Morgan)
3B - Mike Schmidt (Wade Boggs)
SS - Honus Wagner (Alex Rodriguez)
LF - Ted Williams (Barry Bonds)
CF - Willie Mays (Oscar Charleston)
RF - Babe Ruth (Hank Aaron)
DH - Edgar Martinez (Frank Thomas)
SP-R - Walter Johnson (Satchel Paige)
SP-L - Randy Johnson (Lefty Grove)
RP - Mariano Rivera (Goose Gossage, Hoyt Wilhelm)
These guys could give your's a tough series maybe:

C - Yogi Berra, Pudge Rodriguez
1b - Lou Gehrig, Stan Musial
2b - Eddie Collins, Rogers Hornsby
3b - George Brett, Eddie Mathews
SS - Cal Ripken Jr, Ozzie Smith
LF - Ricky Henderson, Tim Raines
CF - Tris Speaker, Mickey Mantle
RF - Barry Bonds, Roberto Clemente
DH - Mike Trout, Joe DiMaggio
SP -R - Greg Maddux, Roger Clemens
SP -L - Warren Spahn, Steve Carlton
RP - Dennis Eckersley, Trevor Hoffman

If you get first pick, then I get the steriod guys. ;-)
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Old 02-23-2019, 10:36 PM
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I also think you have too many 60s guys who won't have the training or athleticism of the modern guys, and the only 3-pt specialist you have is Reggie Miller... and he's no Steph.

Are we playing with a 3pt shot?

I'd love to see prime Hakeem vs prime Shaq.

Biggest defensive liabilities: Curry and Erving. You'd kill me on screens, with Stockton/Malone teaming up again, but I have 2 legitimate 3-point threats, as well as Jordan who once hit 6 threes in a Finals game (the Shrug game). And LeBron.

Sorry, Bill Russell.
I loved Shaquille O'Neal being both an LSU grad and Lakers fan, but I felt then and now that Hakeen Olajuwon was a better center. And in today's game, he'd be much better.
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Old 02-23-2019, 10:42 PM
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These guys could give your's a tough series maybe:

C - Yogi Berra, Pudge Rodriguez
1b - Lou Gehrig, Stan Musial
2b - Eddie Collins, Rogers Hornsby
3b - George Brett, Eddie Mathews
SS - Cal Ripken Jr, Ozzie Smith
LF - Ricky Henderson, Tim Raines
CF - Tris Speaker, Mickey Mantle
RF - Barry Bonds, Roberto Clemente
DH - Mike Trout, Joe DiMaggio
SP -R - Greg Maddux, Roger Clemens
SP -L - Warren Spahn, Steve Carlton
RP - Dennis Eckersley, Trevor Hoffman

If you get first pick, then I get the steriod guys. ;-)
Just figured I'd point out that Sandy Koufax was a triple crown pitcher 3 times. He was, in my opinion, for a 3-5 year window, the best pitcher who ever lived.
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Old 02-24-2019, 09:47 AM
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I loved Shaquille O'Neal being both an LSU grad and Lakers fan, but I felt then and now that Hakeen Olajuwon was a better center. And in today's game, he'd be much better.
While this is true, Olajuwon was a better overall player, Shaq would have done fine in any era, IMO.

Offensively, his game was more or less "be bigger than everyone else, and be quicker and faster than anyone that big has ever been." I know that's an extremely simplistic interpretation of his play, but it pretty much boils down to that, doesn't it? He was a freak of nature, and nobody else had another comparable freak of nature to put up against him.

Defensively, he was an elite rim defender, and at the time, on those teams, that was enough, but otherwise he was mostly just a physical obstacle, and was useless in transition (not to mention I remember reading that Phil Jackson, and most of his other coaches for that matter, basically told him to focus on offense and just try not to foul anyone on defense).
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Old 02-24-2019, 03:48 PM
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While this is true, Olajuwon was a better overall player, Shaq would have done fine in any era, IMO.

Offensively, his game was more or less "be bigger than everyone else, and be quicker and faster than anyone that big has ever been." I know that's an extremely simplistic interpretation of his play, but it pretty much boils down to that, doesn't it? He was a freak of nature, and nobody else had another comparable freak of nature to put up against him.

Defensively, he was an elite rim defender, and at the time, on those teams, that was enough, but otherwise he was mostly just a physical obstacle, and was useless in transition (not to mention I remember reading that Phil Jackson, and most of his other coaches for that matter, basically told him to focus on offense and just try not to foul anyone on defense).
Regarding no one else having a comparable freak, there was one name that popped into my head, that being Yao Ming. Iím not sure if he was supposed to be the second coming of Shaq and he just never panned out, or if his skill set was fundamentally different.
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Old 02-24-2019, 06:06 PM
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Screw it I'm gonna staff a whole 25-man baseball team but you can assume the first name is the starter, meeting the OP's rule.

C - Josh Gibson, Yogi Berra
1B - Lou Gehrig
2B - Joe Morgan, Eddie Collins
SS - Honus Wagner, Alex Rodriguez
3B - Mike Schmidt, George Brett
LF - Barry Bonds
CF - Willie Mays, Oscar Charleston
RF - Babe Ruth, Hank Aaron
DH - David Ortiz
SP - Walter Johnson, Randy Johnson, Roger Clemens, Satchel Paige, Lefty Grove
RP - Mariano Rivera, Hoyt Wilhelm, Goose Gossage, Dan Quisenberry, Trevor Hoffman
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Last edited by RickJay; 02-24-2019 at 06:06 PM.
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Old 02-24-2019, 10:57 PM
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Regarding no one else having a comparable freak, there was one name that popped into my head, that being Yao Ming. Iím not sure if he was supposed to be the second coming of Shaq and he just never panned out, or if his skill set was fundamentally different.
Injured feet.

Had Yao Ming played in today's era and had he not been brutalized by his Chinese basketball handlers, he could have been an elite player for the ages. He was truly gifted.
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Old 02-24-2019, 10:59 PM
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A little surprised that Ryne Sandberg isn't getting some love at 2B.
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Old 02-25-2019, 09:46 AM
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While this is true, Olajuwon was a better overall player, Shaq would have done fine in any era, IMO.

Offensively, his game was more or less "be bigger than everyone else, and be quicker and faster than anyone that big has ever been." I know that's an extremely simplistic interpretation of his play, but it pretty much boils down to that, doesn't it? He was a freak of nature, and nobody else had another comparable freak of nature to put up against him.
I disagree. Shaq had great footwork, control, and amazing soft-touch hands. Even an equal-sized freak of nature couldn't have stopped him in the post.

[Which is why, to me, it was so frustrating that the refs let him just push people over and dunk it, but that's not this thread...]

Again, I think Shaq would be less useful/important in today's game, since he'd ruin spacing on offense and on defense give up a lot of threes to a modern center. But he was a real talented athlete, not just an unskilled giant.
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Old 02-25-2019, 10:16 AM
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But he was a real talented athlete, not just an unskilled giant.
I never said the man had no skills. There is no question he was a talented player, but there's also no denying his greatest single advantage was being 7'1", 325, and quick. Would he have been as dominant as he was if he were a mere 6'10", 260? Maybe, but I doubt it.
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Old 02-25-2019, 11:45 AM
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There is/was no center that can effectively cover Shaq. Sure, they might make a few 3 pointers and pull him out of the paint on defense but they are going to be beat to hell by the 3rd quarter and Shaq is going to feast...until they start the hack-a-shaq...


PG - Magic, Stockton
SG - Jordan, Kobe
SF - Bird, Pippen
PF - Rodman, Duncan
C - Shaq, Kareem

Jordan, Pippen, Rodman, Duncan and Shaq can control the middle and lock down the best wing scorers on the defensive end of the court.
Rodman, Shaq, Duncan and Magic are gonna grab ALL the rebounds.
Magic, Bird and Stockton can control the game while taking no more than 5-8 shots apiece which leaves plenty of shots for Jordan, Kobe, Kareem and Shaq to split amongst themselves.

I don't have any 3 point experts but I think I can get by

Last edited by BeagleJesus; 02-25-2019 at 11:48 AM. Reason: Finally thought of a good backup for SF
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Old 02-25-2019, 12:19 PM
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These guys could give your's a tough series maybe:

C - Yogi Berra, Pudge Rodriguez
1b - Lou Gehrig, Stan Musial
2b - Eddie Collins, Rogers Hornsby
3b - George Brett, Eddie Mathews
SS - Cal Ripken Jr, Ozzie Smith
LF - Ricky Henderson, Tim Raines
CF - Tris Speaker, Mickey Mantle
RF - Barry Bonds, Roberto Clemente
DH - Mike Trout, Joe DiMaggio
SP -R - Greg Maddux, Roger Clemens
SP -L - Warren Spahn, Steve Carlton
RP - Dennis Eckersley, Trevor Hoffman

If you get first pick, then I get the steriod guys. ;-)
Hey no fair - Trout and Joe D weren't DH's! Plus although Bonds was great, I'm not sure he's great enough to be on both rosters.

But I do see almost all of my third choices on your roster. Leaving Rickey! off was probably my hardest decision...
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Old 02-25-2019, 12:34 PM
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Just figured I'd point out that Sandy Koufax was a triple crown pitcher 3 times. He was, in my opinion, for a 3-5 year window, the best pitcher who ever lived.
No doubt Koufax had a great peak, but...

I'd argue that Pedro 1997-2000 was a better four year peak; probably The Big Unit's 1999-2002 as well. And both had way more of a rest of a career then Koufax.

In retrospect maybe I should drop Satchel Paige and use Pedro Martinez as my backup RHP.
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Old 02-26-2019, 04:13 PM
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No doubt Koufax had a great peak, but...

I'd argue that Pedro 1997-2000 was a better four year peak; probably The Big Unit's 1999-2002 as well. And both had way more of a rest of a career then Koufax.

In retrospect maybe I should drop Satchel Paige and use Pedro Martinez as my backup RHP.
Are these 'greatest' teams competing against each other? Because if you need someone who can pitch against an All-Star team, you probably can't go wrong with '99 Pedro.
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Old 02-26-2019, 07:26 PM
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A little surprised that Ryne Sandberg isn't getting some love at 2B.
He just doesn't measure up to the top guys - old timers like Hornsby and Collins, but also Morgan and even Rod Carew, who is another guy who hasn't been mentioned yet. He's on the next tier down with guys like Biggio and Alomar (both of whom are great).

Last edited by Tom Scud; 02-26-2019 at 07:26 PM.
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Old 02-26-2019, 07:39 PM
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No doubt Koufax had a great peak, but...

I'd argue that Pedro 1997-2000 was a better four year peak; probably The Big Unit's 1999-2002 as well. And both had way more of a rest of a career then Koufax.

In retrospect maybe I should drop Satchel Paige and use Pedro Martinez as my backup RHP.
Sandy Koufax was a great pitcher but as amazing as his numbers look he was NOT as great at his peak as some guys. I agree Pedro and the Big Unit were at least as good and maybe better, and would argue Grove, Clemens, Walter Johnson, and a few other guys are as good or better.

Koufax was a Hall of Famer all the way but if you account for him pitching in a low scoring time and in a very low scoring ballpark he isn't quite Pedro, Randy, or Grove. Or maybe he is - but you can't definitely say he was better. And if he definitively wasn't better at his peak, he sure as hell isn't catching up to them on longetivity.

That's no insult, just as it's no insult to say Ryne Sandberg wasn't as great as Joe Morgan (or that, say, Phil Esposito wasn't as great as Wayne Gretzky, or that Shaq wasn't quite Kareem, or that Brett Favre isn't quit Tom Brady.) Hall of Famer isn't the standard here. GREATEST is the standard.
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Old 02-26-2019, 09:16 PM
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Soccer, lets say a 4-3-3.

GK - Buffon (Zoff)
LB - Maldini (Roberto Carlos?)
CB - Baresi (Nesta)
CB - Beckenbauer (Moore)
RB - Cafu (Lahm)
CM - Lothar Matthaus (Rijkaard)
AM - Zidane (Xavi)
AM - Platini (Maradona)
LW - Christiano Ronaldo (not a great #2 at this position. Ronaldinho or Zoltan Czibor?)
CF - Pele (van Basten)
RW - Messi (Cruyff)
  #31  
Old 02-27-2019, 12:38 AM
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Sandy Koufax was a great pitcher but as amazing as his numbers look he was NOT as great at his peak as some guys. I agree Pedro and the Big Unit were at least as good and maybe better, and would argue Grove, Clemens, Walter Johnson, and a few other guys are as good or better.

Koufax was a Hall of Famer all the way but if you account for him pitching in a low scoring time and in a very low scoring ballpark he isn't quite Pedro, Randy, or Grove. Or maybe he is - but you can't definitely say he was better. And if he definitively wasn't better at his peak, he sure as hell isn't catching up to them on longetivity.
Koufax was the only guy I know of who won the baseball pitching triple crown three times. I think a lot of people get it wrong when they compare stats across eras. The real test is how they were relative to the competition of their time. Sandy Koufax was indisputably *the* best pitcher, the most dominant pitcher relative to his competition. He did it three times. Something no other pitcher in the 6 decades before and nearly 6 decades since has done.

Last edited by asahi; 02-27-2019 at 12:38 AM.
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Old 02-27-2019, 12:48 AM
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My NFL team (will skew heavily from the 80s forward because I'm not old enough to have ever seen, say, Jim Brown play; and I like the 4-3 defense):

QB Joe Montana (Dan Marino)
It's hard to argue with these. Brady seems like the obvious pick, but I also think that Brady (like Montana) benefited from being in a great organization. Marino had a great coach and an okay organization. Marino had to do more with less. Seriously the guy had midget receivers and no running backs, and Miami was no longer known for its defense by the time he came around.

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HC Vince Lombardi (Joe Gibbs)
Bill Belichick is the greatest coach in football history - at pretty much any level.
  #33  
Old 02-27-2019, 09:43 PM
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Because there are a limited number of shots and a single ball, I tried to base my picks on that. Also, defence matters, at least to me.

PG: Magic Johnson, Jason Kidd
SG: Michael Jordan, Ray Allen
SF: Lebron James, Scottie Pippen
PF: Tim Duncan, Dirk Nowitzki
C: Kareen Abdul-Jabbar, Hakeem Olajuwon
Coach: Gregg Popovich
GM: Jerry West

I love the idea of being able to put out 5 lock down defenders who can score. Not every one on the list is a great defender but there is at least one at every position. I like the balance in scoring, as well. I'm not forgetting about Kobe...I know he exists.
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Old 02-27-2019, 10:34 PM
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It's hard to argue with these. Brady seems like the obvious pick, but I also think that Brady (like Montana) benefited from being in a great organization.
Not to mention modern rules that outlaw pass defense.

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Bill Belichick is the greatest coach in football history - at pretty much any level.
Maybe. But my guys didn't do too badly, either.
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Old 02-28-2019, 08:32 AM
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Koufax was the only guy I know of who won the baseball pitching triple crown three times. I think a lot of people get it wrong when they compare stats across eras. The real test is how they were relative to the competition of their time. Sandy Koufax was indisputably *the* best pitcher, the most dominant pitcher relative to his competition. He did it three times. Something no other pitcher in the 6 decades before and nearly 6 decades since has done.
Both Walter Johnson and Grover Cleveland Alexander did this.

I mean, it's a cool accomplishment, don't get me wrong, but it's juuuuust a bit of a cherry pick; why is strikeouts a more important stat than fewest walks, or most complete games, or whatever?

Lefty Grove "only" did this twice; in 1928, he led the league in wins and strikeouts but missed the ERA crown by 0.07 to a guy named Garland Braxton. Was Lefty Grove not the best pitcher in the AL in 1928? Hell, of course he was. He was a way better pitcher than Garland Braxton. Grove was the best pitcher in his league year after year, at least six or seven times in all; you don't have to win the PTC to be the best pitcher in the league. Similar points can be made for Roger Clemens - again, he "only" did this twice in 1997 and 1998, but really, you can't seriously argue he wasn't the best pitcher in his league in a lot of other years. Randy Johnson was the best pitcher in his league four or five times. So was Greg Maddux, who never led the league in strikeouts.

Again, this isn't a shot at Koufax, who wasn't called "The Left Arm of God" for nothing, and whose World Series performances were otherworldly.

Of course, what makes him such an odd case is that unlike anyone else I have mentioned, he just stopped mid-career. This wasn't any sort of a small matter - he might well have lost the use of his arm if he'd kept on going. It was amazing he lasted as long as he did. Anyway, in 1966 he was the best pitcher in the major leagues, and just 30 years old, and that was it; as I am sure you know, that made him the youngest player ever elected to the Hall of Fame. He walked away when he was arguably the most dominant player in baseball. I cannot think of any comparable example of a pitcher that young and that great just stopping. (JR Richard's career also ended at 30 but he wasn't in that class at all.) Had Koufax remained healthy, who knows what might have been?
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Last edited by RickJay; 02-28-2019 at 08:44 AM.
  #36  
Old 03-01-2019, 10:12 AM
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Soccer, lets say a 4-3-3.

GK - Buffon (Zoff)
LB - Maldini (Roberto Carlos?)
CB - Baresi (Nesta)
CB - Beckenbauer (Moore)
RB - Cafu (Lahm)
CM - Lothar Matthaus (Rijkaard)
AM - Zidane (Xavi)
AM - Platini (Maradona)
LW - Christiano Ronaldo (not a great #2 at this position. Ronaldinho or Zoltan Czibor?)
CF - Pele (van Basten)
RW - Messi (Cruyff)
Now that I've thought about it some more, probably Puskas or Gerd Muller over van Basten. Cannavaro over Nesta and Carlos Alberto over Lahm at RB are probably good flips too. Rijkaard could definitely be knocked out at the DM/CM slot, but no strong feelings on who would be the replacement.
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Old 03-01-2019, 11:33 AM
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Screw it I'm gonna staff a whole 25-man baseball team
Same.

STARTING LINEUP
LF Ty Cobb
SS-UT Honus Wagner
DH Ted Williams
RF Babe Ruth
CF Willie Mays
1B Albert Pujols
2B Eddie Collins
3B Mike Schmidt
C Johnny Bench

BENCH
PH-1B Lou Gehrig
PH-C Josh Gibson
OF Hank Aaron
IF-PR Ozzie Smith
UT-PR Jackie Robinson
C Yogi Berra

STARTING ROTATION
RHP Satchel Paige
LHP Sandy Koufax
RHP Walter Johnson
LHP Randy Johnson
RHP Tom Seaver

BULLPEN
CLOSER Mariano Rivera
LHP Lefty Grove
RHP Bob Gibson
RHP Greg Maddux
RHP Grover Cleveland Alexander

Manager Joe McCarthy

If you want to play by the rules, my starters would be Satchel Paige and Sandy Koufax. My relievers would be Mariano Rivera, Lefty Grove, and Walter Johnson. If you fault me for using Teddy Ballgame at DH, that's your prerogative.

ETA: I emphasized defense here, hence Pujols over Gehrig, Bench over Gibson, and Collins over Hornsby.
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Last edited by StusBlues; 03-01-2019 at 11:37 AM.
  #38  
Old 03-01-2019, 12:00 PM
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NBA

FORWARDS
Larry Bird
LeBron James
Karl Malone
Tim Duncan

CENTERS
Wilt Chamberlain
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Hakeem Olajuwon

GUARDS
Michael Jordan
Steph Curry
Magic Johnson
John Stockton
Oscar Robertson

Coach: Phil Jackson

ETA: Tough to pick a starting lineup. I'd want to start both Bird and LeBron, which is a little problematic but not impossible. I'd definitely start Wilt and Jordan. Point guard is hardest, which is mostly what kept me from naming starters. Pick one of four, I guess.
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Last edited by StusBlues; 03-01-2019 at 12:03 PM.
  #39  
Old 03-01-2019, 12:15 PM
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I don't think there's a way to pick a "wrong" starting lineup out of that roster. You can easily go traditional, "small ball," Magic allows you to really go "big," or anything in between.
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Old 03-01-2019, 02:58 PM
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I don't think there's a way to pick a "wrong" starting lineup out of that roster. You can easily go traditional, "small ball," Magic allows you to really go "big," or anything in between.
Thanks. The problem is that Curry, possibly the greatest scoring threat of the modern game, doesn't fit the "quarterback" model of Magic, Robertson, or Stockton.

Also, it's difficult for me to reconcile the "Bird, Magic, Michael" orthodoxy of the Dream Team era with the obvious changes in the game since. If the game has come that far in 30 years, those three shouldn't still be starters on an All-Time team-- except that Jordan obviously WAS that good, and I still have a hard time comprehending that anyone has ever had more mastery of more facets of the game than Larry Bird. Per the comments above about superior conditioning of today's athletes in defending the center position, how can one say that about a guy who AVERAGED 48 minutes a game like Wilt did?

So many great players....

But to hell with Kobe Bryant.
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  #41  
Old 03-01-2019, 06:46 PM
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Soccer, lets say a 4-3-3.

GK - Buffon (Zoff)
LB - Maldini (Roberto Carlos?)
CB - Baresi (Nesta)
CB - Beckenbauer (Moore)
RB - Cafu (Lahm)
CM - Lothar Matthaus (Rijkaard)
AM - Zidane (Xavi)
AM - Platini (Maradona)
LW - Christiano Ronaldo (not a great #2 at this position. Ronaldinho or Zoltan Czibor?)
CF - Pele (van Basten)
RW - Messi (Cruyff)
I don't know much about football, but...Maradona as a second-stringer? And no Beckham?

I am in no position to debate; just wondering about your reasoning.
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Old 03-01-2019, 11:37 PM
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I don't know much about football, but...Maradona as a second-stringer? And no Beckham?

I am in no position to debate; just wondering about your reasoning.
I think Zidane and Maldini would fit into a full team of superstars better than Maradona, but if most people want him in the first team instead of either of those two, I wouldn't argue much.

Beckam probably doesn't make the 10th string, I'd have to spend a lot more time thinking about it. He was never the best player on his team, excepting his time in MLS, let alone one of the best players of his generation. Plus, his skill set doesn't fit a 4-3-3.
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Old 03-02-2019, 01:28 PM
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I don't know much about football, but...Maradona as a second-stringer? And no Beckham?
Beckham is the Joe Namath of soccer: way, way, more famous than his actual playing ability. [Not to say either was horrible, but neither were all-time greats].
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Old 03-02-2019, 02:28 PM
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Gosh - this far and no hockey yet.

Like to see a game between these teams:

Centre: um, Gretzky Gretzky Gretzky / Crosby
LW: Ovie / Shanahan
RW: definitely Howe / Jagr (or Bossy? Kurri? ACK!)
LD: um, Orr, Orr, Orr / Robinson
RD: Lidstrom / Park
G: Brodeur / Plante
C: Bowman

- vs -

Centre: Lemieux (Claude - no just kidding) / Sean Avery (ok maybe kidding again - try McDavid instead) (almost Richard - who's been incorrectly attributed as a right winger in some corners of the internet)
LW: (Bobby - not Brett...greatness, remember?) Hull / Alexander Yukashev (interesting - WAY less pickins than RW)
RW: Messier / Lafleur
LD: Harvey / Potvin
RD: Chelios / Stevens (heh - way less pickins than LD)
G: Sawchuk / Dryden
C: toss-up between Arbour / Blake / Babcock


Quote:
Originally Posted by asahi View Post
Had Yao Ming played in today's era and had he not been brutalized by his Chinese basketball handlers...
Interesting - how so?

Quote:
Originally Posted by asahi View Post
I think a lot of people get it wrong when they compare stats across eras. The real test is how they were relative to the competition of their time.
Good point, that made me vacillate between decisions.
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Old 03-02-2019, 02:34 PM
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Gosh - this far and no hockey yet.

Like to see a game between these teams:

Centre: um, Gretzky Gretzky Gretzky / Crosby
LW: Ovie / Shanahan
RW: definitely Howe / Jagr (or Bossy? Kurri? ACK!)
LD: um, Orr, Orr, Orr / Robinson
RD: Lidstrom / Park
G: Brodeur / Plante
C: Bowman

- vs -

Centre: Lemieux (Claude - haha no just kidding) / Sean Avery (ok maybe kidding again - try McDavid instead) (almost Richard - who's been incorrectly attributed as a right winger in some corners of the internet)
LW: (Bobby - not Brett...greatness, remember?) Hull / Alexander Yukashev (interesting - WAY less pickins than RW)
RW: Messier / Lafleur
LD: Harvey / Potvin
RD: Chelios / Stevens (heh - way less pickins than LD)
G: Sawchuk / Dryden
C: toss-up between Arbour / Blake / Babcock


Quote:
Originally Posted by asahi View Post
Had Yao Ming played in today's era and had he not been brutalized by his Chinese basketball handlers...
Interesting - how so?

Quote:
Originally Posted by asahi View Post
I think a lot of people get it wrong when they compare stats across eras. The real test is how they were relative to the competition of their time.
Good point, that made me vacillate between decisions.

ETA:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahaloth View Post
Nadal is definitely an option, but I have come around the last few years to the opinion that Novak may actually be the better player.
On hard court and grass, sure.
I'll wager RN has at least two more FO titles in him.

Last edited by Guest-starring: Id!; 03-02-2019 at 02:36 PM.
  #46  
Old 03-02-2019, 04:49 PM
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Fuck - first for everything, I guess.
Apologies.
  #47  
Old 03-02-2019, 11:12 PM
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NFL football:


Coach = Bill Belichick
QB = Tom Brady
RB = Barry Sanders
WR = Randy Moss, Jerry Rice
TE = Jason Witten
Offensive linemen = Larry Allen, Orlando Pace, Anthony Munoz, Walter Jones, Jim Otto

Defensive linemen = Reggie White, Michael Strahan, Bruce Smith, Warren Sapp
LB = Lawrence Taylor, Brian Urlacher, Ray Lewis
CB = Deion Sanders, Richard Sherman, Darrelle Revis
Safeties = Ed Reed, Darren Woodson
  #48  
Old 03-03-2019, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guest-starring: Id! View Post
Gosh - this far and no hockey yet.

Like to see a game between these teams:

Centre: um, Gretzky Gretzky Gretzky / Crosby
LW: Ovie / Shanahan
RW: definitely Howe / Jagr (or Bossy? Kurri? ACK!)
LD: um, Orr, Orr, Orr / Robinson
RD: Lidstrom / Park
G: Brodeur / Plante
C: Bowman
Well, we gotta do this now

C: Gretzky, Lemieux
RW: Howe, Richard
LW: Hull, Ovechkin
D: Orr, Lidstrom, Bourque, Robinson
G: Roy, Brodeur, Dryden
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  #49  
Old 03-03-2019, 12:15 PM
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The problem with these All-Superstar baseball teams is that if you sent them back to 1927 they'd still have a tough time beating the '27 Yankees.*

And it's hard to understand why Bob Gibson was left off the pitching staffs. That's the guy I'd want in a tough spot.

*Babe Ruth would have to play for both sides, but I'm sure he wouldn't mind if promised extra chow after the game. Or maybe even during it.
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Old 03-04-2019, 07:59 AM
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The problem with these All-Superstar baseball teams is that if you sent them back to 1927 they'd still have a tough time beating the '27 Yankees.*
The 1927 Yankees were a wonderful team but they had no all-time great pitchers. Waite Hoyt and Herb Pennock are in the Hall of Fame, but they really aren't great choices; they're in the Hall BECAUSE they were on the 1927 Yankees. Dennis Martinez and Frank Tanana were just as good as those guys. Urban Shocker was a hell of a pitcher but by 1927 he wasn't as dominating as he had once been - that was his last full year. Wilcy Moore had a great year but it was a fluke.

Against lineups of the sort presented here, the lack of super-elite pitchers is a fatal flaw. The '27 Yankees would be crushed by our All-Star teams. Absolutely massacred. Only in right field and first base are they as good; at every other position they are totally overmatched. Tony Lazzeri and Earle Combs and Bob Meusel were fine players indeed but nowhere close to Joe Morgan, Willie Mays and Barry Bonds. The left side of the infield is men against boys, and I'd forgotten who their catcher was.

Look at it this way... the 1927 Yankees went 110-44. How would our superteams fare in a 154-game season? They wouldn't lose 44 games. I'm not sure they'd lose 14. We're struggling to find a roster spot for BOB GIBSON.
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