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Old 11-06-2018, 01:01 PM
Saint Cad Saint Cad is offline
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Is lying allowed on SD? Because calling it out certainly is not.

Got a warning for accusing a poster of lying. Before you go, "Of course you did. That's against the rules." Please look here.

OK you didn't click? Here it is. In a thread on politician lying I pointed out that Harry Ried lied and no one cared. Happy Fun Ball comes along and says he agrees and then follows up with commenting that he looked at my post history and that I support the following positions
*Benghazi was a crime
*Hillary Clinton should be imprisoned for the email server fiasco
*I'm a Trump supporter

Thing is, based on my posting history the first two are objectively false and the third is subjective and although I support some of Trump policies I don't blindly support everything he does*. But this is a thread on lying and how no one cares right? I mean Happy Fun Ball agreed with me that no one cares. Maybe (I think) he deliberately did that for irony. You must admit that his post makes a huge shift in the second paragraph and transitioned with "Or maybe I should say nobody cares unless it is their ox being gored. For instance,"

Quote:
I agree with you that lying is a serious problem in the US. The lies told about Kerry when he was a Presidential nominee were shameful and don't even get me started on the smear job that was done on the Clinton's or that Muslim Obama's birth place. It is clear that you are right and nobody cares. Or maybe I should say nobody cares unless it is their ox being gored.

For instance, I see from your posting history that you still think Benghazi was a crime and that Hillary should be locked up for her email server (this despite numerous investigations). I also see that you are a big Trump supporter, a President who demonstrably lies more than any other politician in my lifetime. I haven't seen you call anybody out over those lies. Or maybe you believe all of that because it fits your narrative?
So I took that as deliberately making up lies to illustrate his point. Why didn't I report it?** Because I felt it was an example appropriately in a thread about lying just like my response of Hey you're lying was appropriate as a bit between HFB and me to show that people don't care.

And to top it off, Bone gives me a warning for accusing HFB of lying but of course no comment made to HFB. I disagree with the warning and ask that it be recinded based on the context of the thread, how HFB wrote his post and me being explicit saying "Are you trying to be ironic lying about my positions because ..." in my reply.


BUT that raises a point. Suppose a poster says things that a objectively and provably untrue. Suppose I say in a thread that poster X has written many times that he thinks raping unconcious women is OK since they can't say no. That is a lie but if poster X says, "That's a lie." He is warned. Am I ever warned? Should poster X report it? If so will the mods make it clear my post was a lie? Is it even possible for poster X to rebut what I said without explicitly calling me a liar? And if so, how is it fair that I can toss out these thread bombs of lies left and right and other posters need to tiptoe around them lest they get modded? Why must the rebuttal be softer than the accusation.

So what is the SD rules and policies when a poster says thing that are objectively untrue about another poster and how can the other side respond?



*Although sometimes I think that on the SDMB that not believing everything Trump does is evil makes you a Trump supporter.

** FTR I did report it after my warning because if I get a warning for saying "You're lying." then the liar should as well. But honestly I feel neither one of us should get any modding BUT I feel more strongly that there should not be a double-standard.
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Old 11-06-2018, 01:04 PM
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In a similar situation, I responded, "not true", and I had no problem. I think that's because "not true" isn't an attack on someone's character, but "you're lying" is.
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Old 11-06-2018, 01:11 PM
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It's not the best rule, IMO, but it's been here for a long time. Never say any poster is lying. You can say a third party is lying, but not a poster. In GD, at least.

That said, I do think we should at least be able to report it when someone seems to be deliberately stating falsehoods, with the idea that, if the mods agree, they will tell the poster to stop doing so.
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Old 11-06-2018, 01:12 PM
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That thread is in Great Debates, which has specific rules regarding accusations of lying:
Quote:
Accusations of lying - It is against the rules to accuse another poster of lying or being a liar in the Great Debates or Elections fora. Questioning or disputing the accuracy of another poster's statements--"I don't think that's right", "That's incorrect", "You are mistaken", or even "That's not true"-- is what Great Debates is all about. However, questioning the intent of another poster in making an arguably false statement--e.g., "You are a liar", "You are lying", "That is a lie", "That's not true and you darned well know it isn't true"--is crossing the line into attacking the other poster rather than attacking the other poster's arguments, and will be considered a violation of the rules of the forum. In general, to be considered an accusation of lying a post must contain the following two elements: 1) deliberately saying something that the person knows is untrue, and 2) doing so with the intent to deceive.
This and other GD specific rules can be found in the sticky at the top of the forum.
  #5  
Old 11-06-2018, 01:39 PM
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I once had a poster accuse me of supporting molestation of women (or something equally vile) in my posts. I said it was not true and challenged him to provide one single post of mine supporting that position. After a period that was, I assumed, busy with research on his part, he apologized saying that he had confused me with another poster. Sloppy posting on his part, but not lying (if I were to take him at his word, which I did). Your case might have been something similar.

This wasn't in GD (I don't think it was anyway) but I think it is the best approach for any case where you are being accused of supporting some position in your SDMB posts. I know this kind of thing can feel like a very personal attack, but you, the accused, have to maintain your cool. If you play it right, maybe you can get an apology too.

There are lots of things said on this board that are not true (this is not one of them). Some of them may be lies, but when it is not a personal attack it really doesn't matter, it's a matter of finding and supporting the truth where possible. If there is an extreme case of lying about you, and you can prove it's a lie (without calling it that), the liar could conceivably get modded for a personal attack, but you would have to handle it very carefully, with objectivity and calm.

Last edited by Roderick Femm; 11-06-2018 at 01:40 PM.
  #6  
Old 11-06-2018, 01:53 PM
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Interestingly, exactly that scenario has played out here. Happy Fun Ball has admitted mistaking Saint Cad for another poster and apologized for it.
  #7  
Old 11-06-2018, 02:50 PM
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I kind of wish that even a sincere apology weren't a get out of jail free card for making that kind of mistake. I mean, lots of people might read the accusation who never come back to read the retraction. This is one of the problems with all the ad hominem attacks on this board (i.e. that people aren't careful to research their attacks in advance) and one of the reasons I wish we didn't have so much of that stuff here. For myself, I don't much care what anyone "really" believes, I am mostly interested in their arguments as stated.

Last edited by Roderick Femm; 11-06-2018 at 02:51 PM.
  #8  
Old 11-06-2018, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saint Cad View Post
Suppose a poster says things that a objectively and provably untrue. Suppose I say in a thread that poster X has written many times that he thinks raping unconcious women is OK since they can't say no. That is a lie but if poster X says, "That's a lie." He is warned. Am I ever warned? Should poster X report it? If so will the mods make it clear my post was a lie? Is it even possible for poster X to rebut what I said without explicitly calling me a liar? And if so, how is it fair that I can toss out these thread bombs of lies left and right and other posters need to tiptoe around them lest they get modded? Why must the rebuttal be softer than the accusation.

So what is the SD rules and policies when a poster says thing that are objectively untrue about another poster and how can the other side respond?
Just take your grudge to the Pit, where you can say what you want.
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Old 11-06-2018, 03:30 PM
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I think my issue with the warning was it is not a simple as accusing the poster of lying. Given the thread and the way he wrote the post I didn't take it as malicious lying but rather "As an example, let me demonstrate that I can make up lies about you and you are the only one that will care." To that end and to support his demonstration I think saying explicitly "Those are lies because we are talking about lying so let's be clear those are lies and you are lying." What is lost on Bone methinks is the context of the two posts and how they relate to the discussion.
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Old 11-06-2018, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saint Cad View Post
BUT that raises a point. Suppose a poster says things that a objectively and provably untrue. Suppose I say in a thread that poster X has written many times that he thinks raping unconcious women is OK since they can't say no. That is a lie but if poster X says, "That's a lie." He is warned. Am I ever warned? Should poster X report it? If so will the mods make it clear my post was a lie? Is it even possible for poster X to rebut what I said without explicitly calling me a liar? And if so, how is it fair that I can toss out these thread bombs of lies left and right and other posters need to tiptoe around them lest they get modded? Why must the rebuttal be softer than the accusation.

So what is the SD rules and policies when a poster says thing that are objectively untrue about another poster and how can the other side respond?
First, there is a difference between being mistaken and lying. This example emphasizes this point. HFB states that he was mistaken, not lying. Yet you accused him of lying which is not permitted.

I'm going to address the questions and comments all at once:

If you continually make up statements and falsely attribute them to another poster, it can be considered harassment, trolling, hijacking, or simply being a jerk. Context will determine whether it's a pattern of behavior or something different. It is unlikely the moderation team will make a declaration that a given statement is a lie. It is simple to rebut an inaccurate statement without explicitly calling another poster a liar. A rebuttal need not be softer than the accusation. If a poster says something that is objectively untrue then the simplest way to respond is to demonstrate the falsity of the statement. If the statement is constructed in such a way as this demonstration would be difficult as it would be to prove a negative, then a call for evidence is typically the way to go.

A: You told everyone that blue was your favorite color!
B: No, I didn't. Do you have any evidence that I made that claim?
A: *crickets*
  #11  
Old 11-06-2018, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saint Cad View Post
Got a warning for accusing a poster of lying. Before you go, "Of course you did. That's against the rules." Please look here.
Of course you did. That's against the rules.

I don't need to "look here", because I saw this already and there is no question that you accused another poster of lying. Whether that poster was lying, or whether you were accusing of him of "ironically" lying is besides the point. There is no escape clause in the rules for either of those situations.

Last edited by John Mace; 11-06-2018 at 04:51 PM.
  #12  
Old 11-06-2018, 05:16 PM
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I do think that if a poster makes a provably false claim, is corrected, and later (even in another thread) repeats it, then they should be called out for lying, but maybe it should be a moderator making the determination after a report?
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Old 11-06-2018, 05:27 PM
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Just for the record, I never thought HFB was lying per se. Given the thread and his post, I thought he was making a point and I went along with it and used the term "lying" because I thought given the topic of lying and what I thought he was trying to point out that saying "I believe you are mistaken my good sir" would soften his point of "No one cares about blatant lying." I still object to the warning since I feel it neglects any context of the thread, his post or mine but I guess that's what you get with zero tolerance rules.
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Old 11-06-2018, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bone View Post
If you continually make up statements and falsely attribute them to another poster, it can be considered harassment, trolling, hijacking, or simply being a jerk. Context will determine whether it's a pattern of behavior or something different. It is unlikely the moderation team will make a declaration that a given statement is a lie.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
I do think that if a poster makes a provably false claim, is corrected, and later (even in another thread) repeats it, then they should be called out for lying, but maybe it should be a moderator making the determination after a report?
Looks like that is "unlikely". I don't see why it's so important that someone gets called a liar. But if you really must, just do it in the Pit. Problem solved.
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Old 11-06-2018, 06:41 PM
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...but I guess that's what you get with zero tolerance rules.
zero tolerance rules are really easy to enforce.

Anyway, it was just one warning, and now you know.
  #16  
Old 11-06-2018, 09:48 PM
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Quote:
Is lying allowed on SD?
No.
  #17  
Old 11-08-2018, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
I do think that if a poster makes a provably false claim, is corrected, and later (even in another thread) repeats it, then they should be called out for lying, but maybe it should be a moderator making the determination after a report?
That question mark adds a little ambiguity. Are you intending to TELL us what you think, or ASK us what you think?
  #18  
Old 11-08-2018, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
I do think that if a poster makes a provably false claim, is corrected, and later (even in another thread) repeats it, then they should be called out for lying, but maybe it should be a moderator making the determination after a report?
I'll admit to having done something similar once or twice. I recall in a Same Sex Marriage debate someone kept bringing up the 'marrying my dishwasher' argument and being refuted. Finally, when it was brought up again I declared it out of bounds and jerkish behavior to keep returning to it. I took the step because it appeared to not be debating in good faith.
  #19  
Old 11-08-2018, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Jonathan Chance View Post
I'll admit to having done something similar once or twice. I recall in a Same Sex Marriage debate someone kept bringing up the 'marrying my dishwasher' argument and being refuted. Finally, when it was brought up again I declared it out of bounds and jerkish behavior to keep returning to it. I took the step because it appeared to not be debating in good faith.
Hopefully, the poster didn't shift the argument to marrying his refrigerator!
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Old 11-08-2018, 04:37 PM
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Hopefully, the poster didn't shift the argument to marrying his refrigerator!
That's cold.
  #21  
Old 11-08-2018, 04:39 PM
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You guys get the idea, though. I reserve the right to forbid an argument if it's been refuted and, in my opinion, it's being brought up again solely to distract debate from the main topic or to troll.
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Old 11-08-2018, 05:37 PM
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I dont know why it is perfectly Ok within the rules to lie your ass off, but if you even imply that poster is doing so- you get a warning.

I think the Op here has a point.

Jonathan is overly sensitive on this, but does nothing to stop the lying in the first place.
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Old 11-08-2018, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Jonathan Chance View Post
I'll admit to having done something similar once or twice. I recall in a Same Sex Marriage debate someone kept bringing up the 'marrying my dishwasher' argument and being refuted. Finally, when it was brought up again I declared it out of bounds and jerkish behavior to keep returning to it. I took the step because it appeared to not be debating in good faith.
My wife married her dishwasher...
  #24  
Old 11-09-2018, 01:22 AM
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Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
I dont know why it is perfectly Ok within the rules to lie your ass off, but if you even imply that poster is doing so- you get a warning.

I think the Op here has a point.

Jonathan is overly sensitive on this, but does nothing to stop the lying in the first place.
You think it's "perfectly OK within the rules", and you're complaining that the mods don't stop it?

Last edited by John Mace; 11-09-2018 at 01:23 AM.
  #25  
Old 11-09-2018, 02:21 AM
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He's wondering why it's okay within the rules.
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Old 11-09-2018, 02:28 AM
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My wife married her dishwasher...
I see what you did there
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Old 11-09-2018, 08:18 AM
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Interesting choice of topic from this poster. Hey OP, were you being entirely truthful when you stated the following the other day?

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Since my state doesn't have Voter ID I'm going to vote multiple times and straight Republican just to undo all of your Dumbocrat votes.
https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...6&postcount=64

Last edited by El_Kabong; 11-09-2018 at 08:22 AM.
  #28  
Old 11-09-2018, 09:25 AM
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He's wondering why it's okay within the rules.
Correct (first sentence). And he's complaining about the mods not enforcing something that he thinks isn't against the rules (last sentence).

First of all, he's wrong about lying being OK, as was already explained. But the idea that the mods have the time, or the ability, to be the "Liar Police" is ridiculous. Besides, we have two perfectly fine options here: Demonstrate that the poster is wrong (and let readers decide if the poster is lying or not). Go to the Pit and call the poster a liar.
  #29  
Old 11-09-2018, 09:30 AM
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Keep in mind that it's a judgment call as to whether a person is lying or simply mistaken. I'm sure that, at one time or another, we've all ardently believed something that turned out to be incorrect.
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Old 11-09-2018, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mace View Post
First of all, he's wrong about lying being OK, as was already explained.
Cite? That has not been my experience.

Quote:
But the idea that the mods have the time, or the ability, to be the "Liar Police" is ridiculous.
Not asking that. But lying should count as being a jerk, in my opinion. It is wrong for the mods to punish someone who says "liar" while giving the lie itself a free pass. The mods don't have to police it if the lie has been demonstrated clearly.

Quote:
Besides, we have two perfectly fine options here: Demonstrate that the poster is wrong (and let readers decide if the poster is lying or not). Go to the Pit and call the poster a liar.
Trading insults in the pit is a fools game.
  #31  
Old 11-09-2018, 11:34 AM
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The mods don't have to police it if the lie has been demonstrated clearly.
You let me know when that happens and I'll take a look. In my experience, the vast majority of times a person thinks another is lying, they are wrong.

Last edited by Bone; 11-09-2018 at 11:35 AM.
  #32  
Old 11-09-2018, 01:50 PM
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Yeah, judging by the many MANY reports we get - Bone, Tom and I - a great many people confuse 'disagrees with me' with 'lying'.

And I think it would be a vast mistake for the moderation staff to try to police actual lying outside of truly egregious cases. You could time the accusations of political bias with a stopwatch that tracks microseconds. Possibly nanoseconds.
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Old 11-09-2018, 02:27 PM
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You think it's "perfectly OK within the rules", and you're complaining that the mods don't stop it?
No, I said "I dont know why it is perfectly Ok within the rules to lie your ass off,..". Apparently it currently is, but I dont think it shoudl be.

Mind you there is a difference between opinions and facts. You cant really lie about a opinion.
  #34  
Old 11-09-2018, 02:31 PM
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Cite? That has not been my experience.



Not asking that. But lying should count as being a jerk, in my opinion. It is wrong for the mods to punish someone who says "liar" while giving the lie itself a free pass. The mods don't have to police it if the lie has been demonstrated clearly.


Right. At least, when a poster lies his ass off, and someone points that out, that poster shouldnt be warned. Ok, maybe a Note, sure, like "We realize that posterX may have been untrue, but we still have rules against calling people a liar". As it is, there is no culpability for lying, and strong and swift punishments by Jonathan when there is even a hint of someone calling out the liar. The dichotomy there implies that it is perfectly Ok to lie, but banhammer for calling out that liar.
  #35  
Old 11-09-2018, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Jonathan Chance View Post
Yeah, judging by the many MANY reports we get - Bone, Tom and I - a great many people confuse 'disagrees with me' with 'lying'.

And I think it would be a vast mistake for the moderation staff to try to police actual lying outside of truly egregious cases. You could time the accusations of political bias with a stopwatch that tracks microseconds. Possibly nanoseconds.
In the case where you warned me, that poster had stated three times I hadnt provided any cites, but my cites were there for everyone to see. That is clear and obvious lying and it is easy to check. That's not a matter of opinion- either I had posted a cite or I hadn't. And of course knowing full well I had posted cites, but still stating no less than three times that I hadn't- that is harassment. However, even tho I only implied he was lying and it was dead obvious that he had lied- I got a (belated) warning and he not even a note. That is a truly egregious case.

Mind you, as I said- I dont expect you guys to make a big deal of policing lies. But, when there is a truly egregious case- the person who says "Hmm, that appears like a fib there." shouldnt be warned.

You guys are pretty good at catching trolls, so we arent supposed to call out trolls, just report them- fine. But I don't know why we can't call out the occasional truly egregious case of flat out lying.
  #36  
Old 11-09-2018, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
No, I said "I dont know why it is perfectly Ok within the rules to lie your ass off,..". Apparently it currently is, but I dont think it shoudl be.
I didn't say you thought it should be. I said you thought it is. Is. That's the word I used, not "should be".

Last edited by John Mace; 11-09-2018 at 05:15 PM.
  #37  
Old 11-09-2018, 05:34 PM
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I didn't say you thought it should be. I said you thought it is. Is. That's the word I used, not "should be".
Now, I have no idea of what meaningless pedantic point you are trying to make.
  #38  
Old 11-09-2018, 08:11 PM
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If there is one thing I hate more than trying to buy condoms for my 14" penis, it is people who lie on the internet.
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