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Old 10-08-2016, 05:18 AM
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Shouldn't Trump Be Arrested?


IANAL, but with news breaking about Jill Harth, and with Trump on tape gleefully admitting to at the very least sexual harassment, shouldn't he be arrested for sexual misconduct if not sexual assault? What's the law here, and the statute of limitations?

Yes, the tape of Trump verbally demeaning women is disgusting, but what is more disturbing to me is, with his words, he has established that there is a pattern of unacceptable and coercive actions he has taken in his sexual pursuit of women he finds attractive over the years. He didn't say "one time I did X." He said "You know Iím automatically attracted to beautiful women. I just start kissing them. Itís like a magnet. Just kiss. I donít even wait,Ē and ďAnd when youíre a star they let you do it. You can do anything ... Grab them by the pussy. You can do anything.Ē

Trump is an absolute pig, but I think the latest revelation, if it can be corroborated by heretofore unknown victims of his unwanted advances, should do more than simply end his chances at the Presidency, it should land his ass in jail.
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Old 10-08-2016, 05:33 AM
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Don't you have a statute of limitations in the US?
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Old 10-08-2016, 06:03 AM
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I don't think he has said anywhere that the actions were not consensual (quite the opposite actually) or that he improperly used a position of power to get consent; it was I "just kiss em, they let me cause I am rich and famous" as opposed to "gimme a blowjob if you want to stay on". (and yes, it would not surprise me if he has done that, but this recording is not this)

He's a Billionaire (yes yes I know ). Scoring chicks is never a problem for them. You think his wives married him for his looks and winning personality?

Last edited by AK84; 10-08-2016 at 06:05 AM.
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Old 10-08-2016, 07:59 AM
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There are several issues:

1) Lack of specificity - Trump did not admit to committing any kind of involuntary, non-consensual assault/sexual assault at a given time, place, and on a specific person. Without these details, it is impossible to charge him with a specific crime that took place in the jurisdiction of a particular court.

2) Trump did not admit to doing anything without consent since his assertion was precisely that women would consent to him trying to flirt with, kiss, touch, etc. them because he was famous.

3) Corpus - even if the first two things were not issues and that Trump did admit to touching a woman with a sexual intent and without her permission at a specific time, place, and with a particular woman, there is no independent evidence that this happened (namely a specific woman's statement alleging such an incident that corresponds with the details in his statements).

4) Statute of limitations - again, even assuming that there was an actual admitted assault/sexual assault here, since each state has their own laws establishing separate statutes of limitations, there is no way of telling what the time limitations would be here without knowing the location.

Last edited by ganthet; 10-08-2016 at 08:01 AM.
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Old 10-08-2016, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by ganthet View Post
There are several issues:

1) Lack of specificity - Trump did not admit to committing any kind of involuntary, non-consensual assault/sexual assault at a given time, place, and on a specific person. Without these details, it is impossible to charge him with a specific crime that took place in the jurisdiction of a particular court.

2) Trump did not admit to doing anything without consent since his assertion was precisely that women would consent to him trying to flirt with, kiss, touch, etc. them because he was famous.

3) Corpus - even if the first two things were not issues and that Trump did admit to touching a woman with a sexual intent and without her permission at a specific time, place, and with a particular woman, there is no independent evidence that this happened (namely a specific woman's statement alleging such an incident that corresponds with the details in his statements).

4) Statute of limitations - again, even assuming that there was an actual admitted assault/sexual assault here, since each state has their own laws establishing separate statutes of limitations, there is no way of telling what the time limitations would be here without knowing the location.
Yeah, other than that it's a slam dunk prosecution.

Seriously though, it doesn't matter if random people on the internet go overboard with this, that's what the internet is for. But it illustrates the possibility of Democrats overplaying it, which even in their glee the more level headed ones surely realize.

What you have is video, not just audio not just somebody saying so, of Trump crudely speaking of women then getting off the bus and all 'charming' to the woman in the purple dress (IMO that's a serious part of it, rather than just what's said on the bus). Creep. That's really it, good stuff for anti-Trump purposes, but really no need to try to invent some phony criminal aspect.
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Old 10-08-2016, 12:22 PM
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Seriously though, it doesn't matter if random people on the internet go overboard with this, that's what the internet is for. But it illustrates the possibility of Democrats overplaying it, which even in their glee the more level headed ones surely realize.
Exactly. Let me emphasize this. The Democrats should not imitate Trump. Trump has been spewing out barrels of lying propaganda against both Clintons and calling for at least Hilary's arrest. The Democrats should not copy that behavior. They should stick to facts and official findings - because that's what makes Democrats different from Republicans. It's a good difference and one that needs to be preserved. Trump is offering plenty of rope. No need to invent a new string.

If this sinks Trump, it does so with the usual perversity of politics. We know his personality. Probably nobody on earth aware of him will be truly surprised he said this. Or a hundred other things exactly like this. He has in fact said a hundred things in the same ballpark, not just about women but about every group that isn't his own family. This is a nothing in the larger picture of what we know about Trump. Yet this might be the one thing that sticks when a hundred similar or worse things slide. Nobody has ever figured out why some things get headline news and others just like them are local stories. Stuff just happens. This may be his Dukakis tank moment. Or tomorrow's debate may produce a new outrage that wipes this out of public memory. Nobody knows.
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Old 10-08-2016, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by ganthet View Post
There are several issues:

1) Lack of specificity - Trump did not admit to committing any kind of involuntary, non-consensual assault/sexual assault at a given time, place, and on a specific person. Without these details, it is impossible to charge him with a specific crime that took place in the jurisdiction of a particular court.

2) Trump did not admit to doing anything without consent since his assertion was precisely that women would consent to him trying to flirt with, kiss, touch, etc. them because he was famous.

3) Corpus - even if the first two things were not issues and that Trump did admit to touching a woman with a sexual intent and without her permission at a specific time, place, and with a particular woman, there is no independent evidence that this happened (namely a specific woman's statement alleging such an incident that corresponds with the details in his statements).

4) Statute of limitations - again, even assuming that there was an actual admitted assault/sexual assault here, since each state has their own laws establishing separate statutes of limitations, there is no way of telling what the time limitations would be here without knowing the location.
Good summary.

When I was a kid, I used to wonder--and be outraged by--how so many people were such obvious Bad Guys, even to the extent of admitting in public that they continually broke the law, and were allowed to get away with it. "People talk about these mafia bosses as though everyone knows they're in the mafia," I thought, "why don't the police just go and arrest them?" Rock stars and rap stars repeatedly, openly, even defiantly referenced their own, ongoing use of illegal drugs--why don't the police march right down to their houses and arrest them?

The Real World just doesn't work that way.
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Old 10-08-2016, 12:38 PM
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Harth actually did file a sexual harassment suit, which alleged attempted rape, but withdrew the suit as a condition of the $100,000 settlement she said Trump paid her.
Yes I said it was brought up in civil court. What I was trying to say is that this is not a case of someone coming forward with allegations after the statute of limitations ran out. Her allegations came out in time for a criminal investigation but she chose to sue. I don't know why. Maybe advice of counsel.
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Old 10-08-2016, 09:40 AM
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I don't think he has said anywhere that the actions were not consensual (quite the opposite actually) or that he improperly used a position of power to get consent; it was I "just kiss em, they let me cause I am rich and famous" as opposed to "gimme a blowjob if you want to stay on". (and yes, it would not surprise me if he has done that, but this recording is not this)

He's a Billionaire (yes yes I know ). Scoring chicks is never a problem for them. You think his wives married him for his looks and winning personality?
Yes, he did. He admits to tricks he does to kiss people, for one. Tricks aren't consensual.
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Old 10-08-2016, 11:19 AM
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And I'd be interested to know under which statute in which jurisdiction he might be arrested for "sexual harassment."
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Which law does the OP think Trump has broken? Please be specific and also check statute of limitations. Hint: The recently reviewed video is form 11 years ago.
Listen you two, I stated that I am not a lawyer, and was asking those here more knowledgable than I what the law and statute of limitations is. If you have answers to my questions fine. If you don't then say so.

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I don't think he has said anywhere that the actions were not consensual (quite the opposite actually) or that he improperly used a position of power to get consent; it was I "just kiss em, they let me cause I am rich and famous" as opposed to "gimme a blowjob if you want to stay on". (and yes, it would not surprise me if he has done that, but this recording is not this)
You're wrong. He specifically stated that he went after Nancy O'Dell "heavy" but she rebuffed him. That certainly does not sound consensual to me. Does that mean he grabbed or groped her? No, but he did say that is something he does.

Also, Jill Harth testified that Trump did do that type of thing to her. Are you going to spin that as somehow consensual as well?

Based on what I have read, and heard from Trump's own mouth, I consider him a sexual predator. Does what he has admitted to rise to the level of criminal activity, I think so, but again, read carefully: I am not a lawyer.
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Old 10-08-2016, 11:27 AM
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Listen you two, I stated that I am not a lawyer, and was asking those here more knowledgable than I what the law and statute of limitations is. If you have answers to my questions fine. If you don't then say so.
Did you read the second part of my post. THE PART YOU LEFT OUT OF YOUR QUOTE??? That answers your question.
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Old 10-08-2016, 11:41 AM
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Did you read the second part of my post. THE PART YOU LEFT OUT OF YOUR QUOTE??? That answers your question.
There is no need to become agitated, John. I quoted the part of your post I meant to wherein you asked me for answers to questions I asked in the OP.
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Old 10-08-2016, 11:29 AM
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Sexual harassment is normally a civil offense not a criminal one. It may rise to the level of a crime in the workplace, but not as a matter of dating.

ganthet already answered the question properly. I can't see anything in the video that rises to a criminal complaint, and that would be true if the tape were made yesterday.
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Old 10-08-2016, 11:52 AM
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Sexual harassment is normally a civil offense not a criminal one. It may rise to the level of a crime in the workplace, but not as a matter of dating.
Interestingly, there's a story out now noting that Nancy O'Dell -- the married woman he tried to move on "heavily", the one he "failed" to bed when he "moved on her like a bitch" and so on and so forth -- is somebody he then apparently tried to get fired from hosting the Miss USA pageant back when he owned it.
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Old 10-08-2016, 11:40 AM
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You're wrong. He specifically stated that he went after Nancy O'Dell "heavy" but she rebuffed him. That certainly does not sound consensual to me. Does that mean he grabbed or groped her? No, but he did say that is something he does.

Also, Jill Harth testified that Trump did do that type of thing to her. Are you going to spin that as somehow consensual as well?

Based on what I have read, and heard from Trump's own mouth, I consider him a sexual predator. Does what he has admitted to rise to the level of criminal activity, I think so, but again, read carefully: I am not a lawyer.
No he is not wrong. Sexual advances that are rebuffed are not a crime. There have to be some pretty specific (jurisdiction specific) actions for it to rise to a crime. It may be a tort but not a crime.

It was explained to you that it does not rise to the level of a crime especially since he wasn't specifically talking about anyone. In a previous post the term corpus was used. Cops have the saying "No victim no crime."
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Old 10-08-2016, 11:46 AM
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No he is not wrong. Sexual advances that are rebuffed are not a crime. There have to be some pretty specific (jurisdiction specific) actions for it to rise to a crime. It may be a tort but not a crime.
Okay, now I think we are getting somewhere. Thanks. So if what Trump did to Nancy O'Dell was not a crime, which I am okay with stipulating, does that mean it was consensual?
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It was explained to you that it does not rise to the level of a crime especially since he wasn't specifically talking about anyone. In a previous post the term corpus was used. Cops have the saying "No victim no crime."
Okay, understood. What about the Jill Harth case?
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Old 10-08-2016, 11:55 AM
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Okay, understood. What about the Jill Harth case?
Here is the SoL law in FL, where the crime allegedly was committed. Looks like it's well past the limit.
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Old 10-08-2016, 11:59 AM
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Okay, now I think we are getting somewhere. Thanks. So if what Trump did to Nancy O'Dell was not a crime, which I am okay with stipulating, does that mean it was consensual?
Okay, understood. What about the Jill Harth case?
Does anyone know how a sexual advance will be received before it happens? When you make whatever your patented move is do you stop and ask consent first? If someone makes an advance and is rebuffed and they stop there is no crime. It may be the tort of sexual harassment.

The Jill Harth case might be a crime but I am not familiar with the law in Florida and especially not familiar with Florida caselaw which is not easily googlable. As I understand it the case was never investigated as a crime and only went forward as a lawsuit.

I have no doubt that Trump at least skirted the line up to assault and is a horrible person. If people want to think of him as a rapist then fine as long as he doesn't get elected.
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Old 10-08-2016, 11:49 AM
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No he is not wrong. Sexual advances that are rebuffed are not a crime. There have to be some pretty specific (jurisdiction specific) actions for it to rise to a crime. It may be a tort but not a crime.

It was explained to you that it does not rise to the level of a crime especially since he wasn't specifically talking about anyone. In a previous post the term corpus was used. Cops have the saying "No victim no crime."
Hold on. I think that needs further explanation. Criminal law (your field), not civil.

What is a sexual advance, is it physical or merely words? (in your jurisdiction if you like) Can Joe grab Jill's crotch one time and stop when she says "no," and not have committed a crime? Does it matter if they are friends or strangers?
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Old 10-08-2016, 09:45 AM
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I cannot believe I am defending Trump here, but no he did not. Its crass, vulgar and vintage Trump, but nothing in their suggests he did anything unlawful.
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Old 10-08-2016, 09:56 AM
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Which law does the OP think Trump has broken? Please be specific and also check statute of limitations. Hint: The recently reviewed video is form 11 years ago.

Now, if we have a real, live woman who steps forward and has an actionable complaint within the last 7 years (typical of SoL), then there might be something.
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Old 10-08-2016, 11:30 AM
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Which law does the OP think Trump has broken? Please be specific and also check statute of limitations. Hint: The recently reviewed video is form 11 years ago.

Now, if we have a real, live woman who steps forward and has an actionable complaint within the last 7 years (typical of SoL), then there might be something.
The OP is asking a question. He's not making a statement as you seem to imply.

ETA: statute of limitations in CA
Sexual offenses against a minor
Before victim
turns 28

Rape
10 years

And discovering who the rapist is via DNA evidence at a later date, may change those.

Last edited by Morgenstern; 10-08-2016 at 11:33 AM.
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Old 10-08-2016, 11:46 AM
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The OP is asking a question. He's not making a statement as you seem to imply.

ETA: statute of limitations in CA
Sexual offenses against a minor
Before victim
turns 28

Rape
10 years

And discovering who the rapist is via DNA evidence at a later date, may change those.
Very different by state. No statute of limitations for sexual assault in NJ.
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Old 10-08-2016, 02:32 PM
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The OP is asking a question. He's not making a statement as you seem to imply.
Just Asking Questions?

There should be a term for that.
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Old 10-08-2016, 04:27 PM
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Which law does the OP think Trump has broken? Please be specific and also check statute of limitations. Hint: The recently reviewed video is form 11 years ago.

Now, if we have a real, live woman who steps forward and has an actionable complaint within the last 7 years (typical of SoL), then there might be something.
Take your pick. The SoL is expired on some of the sexual assaults though.

http://www.revelist.com/politics/tru...other-crimes/1

https://www.reddit.com/r/EnoughTrump...hy_trump_is_a/
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Old 10-08-2016, 10:56 AM
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So you're just now realizing he's vulgar and crass?

And I'd be interested to know under which statute in which jurisdiction he might be arrested for "sexual harassment."
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Old 10-08-2016, 01:33 PM
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He managed to get away with fraud, bribery, violating the Cuban embargo, tax evasion, and inciting violence. I agree that he should be arrested, and you or I would be arrested for these actions. But unfortunately he seems unstoppable, and I doubt he will face legal consequences for this scandal either.
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Old 10-08-2016, 02:35 PM
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Let me get on the record, again, that I fully expect Donald Trump to be in handcuffs within 3 years. There are too many crimes, too many pissed off people, too many powerful politicians who no longer can stand the man, his goose is literally and effectively cooked.

I'll even go further out in a limb and say it's going to be a RICO indictment: There are too many organizations and too many crimes to prosecute effectively, both operationally (with multiple jurisdictions) and the cost.

Rico is likely the only answer. Otherwise, the Department of Justice, the state of New York, the State of Florida, the FEC, the IRS, and multiple other jurisdictions have to spend their time and money prosecuting Donald Trump in any of his three organizations.

Again, in my admittedly not legal opinion
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Old 10-08-2016, 07:14 PM
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Let me get on the record, again, that I fully expect Donald Trump to be in handcuffs within 3 years. There are too many crimes, too many pissed off people, too many powerful politicians who no longer can stand the man, his goose is literally and effectively cooked.
Or in a few weeks, he is going to be president elect, in which case those same powerful people will line up at the trough. Business is business.

Declan
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Old 10-08-2016, 08:35 PM
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Or in a few weeks, he is going to be president elect, in which case those same powerful people will line up at the trough. Business is business.

Declan
Naw, he isn't going to win. Hillary's ground game and his own party will make sure of that. The RNC has suspended campaign activities for Trump, and he was depending upon them to GOTV. And people are already voting!

Last edited by JohnT; 10-08-2016 at 08:36 PM.
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Old 10-08-2016, 09:03 PM
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Naw, he isn't going to win. Hillary's ground game and his own party will make sure of that. The RNC has suspended campaign activities for Trump, and he was depending upon them to GOTV. And people are already voting!
It certainly looks now like he won't win. There are plenty of people who have made their mind up about him that won't change but not enough to win. Hopefully no October surprises coming out on the other end to swing things back.
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Old 06-21-2019, 03:12 PM
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Let me get on the record, again, that I fully expect Donald Trump to be in handcuffs within 3 years. There are too many crimes, too many pissed off people, too many powerful politicians who no longer can stand the man, his goose is literally and effectively cooked.

I'll even go further out in a limb and say it's going to be a RICO indictment: There are too many organizations and too many crimes to prosecute effectively, both operationally (with multiple jurisdictions) and the cost.

Rico is likely the only answer. Otherwise, the Department of Justice, the state of New York, the State of Florida, the FEC, the IRS, and multiple other jurisdictions have to spend their time and money prosecuting Donald Trump in any of his three organizations.

Again, in my admittedly not legal opinion
LOLOLOLOLOLOL. Getta load of this guy!
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Old 10-08-2016, 09:01 PM
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"70yo admits 60yo self was crude, assures he has matured since then."
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Old 10-08-2016, 09:03 PM
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"70yo admits 60yo self was crude, assures he has matured since then."
Brilliant
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Old 10-08-2016, 09:35 PM
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http://www.cnbc.com/2016/08/09/trump...dangerous.html



Yeah I think he should had been arrested for saying against Hillary !
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Old 06-21-2019, 02:01 PM
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Prominent advice columnist E. Jean Carroll says Trump tried to rape her 23 years ago:

http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/...m_campaign=nym

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When Carroll meets Donald Trump in Bergdorf Goodman, the encounter starts as a friendly one. Trump recognizes her as “that advice lady”; Carroll recognizes him as “that real-estate tycoon.” Trump tells Carroll that he’s there to buy a gift for “a girl,” and though we don’t learn the identity of this mystery woman, Carroll places the ensuing incident in late 1995 or early 1996, during which time Trump was married to Marla Maples. When Trump asks Carroll to advise him on what to buy, she agrees, and the two eventually make their way to the lingerie section. Trump suggests a lace bodysuit and encourages Carroll to try it on; she, deflecting, jokingly suggests that he try it on instead. After they reach the dressing rooms, events turn violent. In Carroll’s account, Trump shoves her against a wall inside a dressing room, pulls down her tights, and, “forcing his fingers around my private area, thrusts his penis halfway — or completely, I’m not certain — inside me.”
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Old 06-21-2019, 02:12 PM
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Reading the quote of the details at the end of that made me throw up in my mouth a little.

And, absolutely nothing will come of this other than Fox and Trump's other minions completely shredding Carroll's reputation.
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Old 06-21-2019, 02:37 PM
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Reading the quote of the details at the end of that made me throw up in my mouth a little.

And, absolutely nothing will come of this other than Fox and Trump's other minions completely shredding Carroll's reputation.
Not to make light of the situation, but I gotta imagine that the not being certain about whether it was "halfway" or "completely" is a not so subtle insult.
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Old 06-21-2019, 02:40 PM
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Not to make light of the situation, but I gotta imagine that the not being certain about whether it was "halfway" or "completely" is a not so subtle insult.
I laughed, along with feeling enormous empathy. Good on her.
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Old 06-21-2019, 03:10 PM
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No statute of limitations for 1st degree rape in NY .

In 1994 Trump had been married to Marla Maples for a year and Tiffany was a year old.
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Old 06-21-2019, 03:27 PM
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I hope the prosecutor for that jurisdiction indicts that orange prick. And let's get the woman to testify before the House Judiciary Committee.
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Old 06-21-2019, 03:31 PM
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I'd prefer to not see her dragged before the house. I'd like her to tell her story to an investigator, a prosecutor, and a judge/jury, and be done with it.
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Old 06-24-2019, 03:18 AM
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I'd prefer to not see her dragged before the house. I'd like her to tell her story to an investigator, a prosecutor, and a judge/jury, and be done with it.
This. Though the House has a Democratic majority, I'd hate to see another episode like Christine Blasey Ford's testimony. The politically-driven derision and victim-condemnation, both on the floor and among the public, was especially painful for sexual assault survivors to witness.
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Old 06-25-2019, 03:00 PM
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I understand why rape victims don't come forward, but if she was going to face the shitstorm anyway, I sure wish she'd spoken up in October 2016. Probably wouldn't have made any difference, but ...
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Old 06-21-2019, 10:18 PM
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No statute of limitations for 1st degree rape in NY.
I know there are good psychological reasons a rape victim might not come forward for many years, but the fact is that such delay damages the jury appeal of a case. While there is no legal statute of limitations, without DNA evidence, there might as well be.

The President is obviously above federal law. That's why Mueller didn't recommend prosecution. In practice, I suspect he is also above state law.

Post-presidency, I think federal prosecution, is unlikely, even if DJT neglects to issue a self-pardon. A Democratic successor wouldn't want the news every day to be about Donald Trump.

As for post-presidency state prosecution, that is conceivable. But massive prejudicial pre-trial publicity would make it hard for him to get a fair trial. All it takes is one Trumpkin on the jury for it to hang.

Guatemala and Honduras both have former presidents currently in prison. AFAIK it hasn't improved their governance.
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Old 06-23-2019, 06:42 PM
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Guatemala and Honduras both have former presidents currently in prison. AFAIK it hasn't improved their governance.
A former president of Israel did five years for rape and obstruction of justice; he was forced to resign before the trial. It didn't improve the governance there, either.
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Old 06-23-2019, 07:50 PM
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A former president of Israel did five years for rape and obstruction of justice; he was forced to resign before the trial. It didn't improve the governance there, either.
Israeli president is not that important, their PM runs the country. You almost never hear about the president of Israel, at least here in the US. But it's still a pretty big deal that he was forced to quit and got convicted.
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Old 06-25-2019, 04:15 PM
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No statute of limitations for 1st degree rape in NY .

In 1994 Trump had been married to Marla Maples for a year and Tiffany was a year old.
There's no statute of limitations now. In the 90s, however, the SOL for first degree rape was five years. That was changed in 2006. I guess they can investigate, but it's extremely unlikely Two Scoops can/will be charged.
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Old 06-21-2019, 03:34 PM
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NY DA is the son of Carter's secretary of state Cyrus Vance

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrus_Vance_Jr.
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Old 06-21-2019, 09:43 PM
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ny da is the son of carter's secretary of state cyrus vance

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/cyrus_vance_jr.
Angry Democrats Fake News Witch Hunt Hillary's Emails

Last edited by Kolak of Twilo; 06-21-2019 at 09:45 PM.
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