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  #101  
Old 10-09-2019, 10:19 AM
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Fox News is reporting the US military has been ordered by Trump not to assist the Kurds.

https://twitter.com/JenGriffinFNC/st...254283784?s=20
  #102  
Old 10-09-2019, 10:23 AM
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Fox News is reporting the US military has been ordered by Trump not to assist the Kurds.

https://twitter.com/JenGriffinFNC/st...254283784?s=20
But wasn't he going to destroy the Turkish economy if they did this?
  #103  
Old 10-09-2019, 10:32 AM
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But wasn't he going to destroy the Turkish economy if they did this?
Right after he gets done repealing and replacing Obamacare.
  #104  
Old 10-09-2019, 11:55 AM
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Fox News is reporting the US military has been ordered by Trump not to assist the Kurds.

https://twitter.com/JenGriffinFNC/st...254283784?s=20
If "assist the Kurds" with air support and a no-fly zone means that we go to war with a NATO "ally", I'm not the least bit surprised that the President told them not to.
  #105  
Old 10-09-2019, 12:10 PM
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But wasn't he going to destroy the Turkish economy if they did this?
He was planning on building a wall between Syria and Turkey and making Turkey pay for it.

Last edited by Little Nemo; 10-09-2019 at 12:11 PM.
  #106  
Old 10-09-2019, 12:17 PM
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If "assist the Kurds" with air support and a no-fly zone means that we go to war with a NATO "ally", I'm not the least bit surprised that the President told them not to.
I think you got this totally backwards. It's Turkey who is starting a war.

Can I ask, since you are a Trump supporter, does some of your acceptance of Trump's authoritarian streaks as just sort of "there he goes again" carry over into your opinions of other authoritarian leaders around the world? I mean, here we are where Erdogan is starting a war with the groups that beat the shit out of ISIS at our behest, and you don't seem very concerned with Erdogan at all. I'm curious as to whether you see yourself giving him the benefit of the doubt since he has some Trump-like characteristics.
  #107  
Old 10-09-2019, 12:20 PM
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If it can be done, I think the Kurds in Syria should try to reach some sort of an agreement with the Syrian government. Perhaps some sort of semi-autonomous region.
What do the Kurds have to negotiate with? The only asset the Kurds had was American support and they just lost that. Turkey will be able to just take everything they want. All the Kurds can offer is a surrender.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Lebodnik View Post
It IS a betrayal of the Kurds, however I suppose it had to happen sometime (the U.S. leaving).
Overall though, it was and is extremely unwise to get too involved in Middle Eastern affairs, on anyones side.
The whole region always was and likely always will be an absolute mess. Conflict there is forever.
I agree. I said it was a mistake for America to get involved in Syria back when Obama sent troops there. It was a conflict between a brutal dictatorship and religious fanatics; there was no good side for us to fight for. Obama was being unrealistic in thinking he could impose some third alternative.

Last edited by Little Nemo; 10-09-2019 at 12:22 PM.
  #108  
Old 10-09-2019, 12:24 PM
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I think you got this totally backwards. It's Turkey who is starting a war.
No, I'm crystal clear on who is starting the war. We're simply not going to intervene on the other (Kurd) side, by bombing Turks or shooting down Turkish jets. That's not remotely realistic.

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... you don't seem very concerned with Erdogan at all. ...
I think Erdogan is a piece of shit and I deeply wish the coup against him had succeeded. I suppose now I'll get called anti-democracy or some shit.
  #109  
Old 10-09-2019, 12:44 PM
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I suppose now I'll get called anti-democracy or some shit.
I don't think that's the case. Throughout this whole thread you've seemed ambivalent as to whether Turkey killing Kurds is a problem for you. Thanks for clearing it up.
  #110  
Old 10-09-2019, 01:29 PM
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Moron Trump says that the attack he greenlit is a "bad idea".
  #111  
Old 10-09-2019, 04:26 PM
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Daniel Dale, CNN, brings the latest from Trump:
Quote:
For his decision on Syria, Trump says, "We've had tremendous support" outside of "the little Washington area."
...
Trump is emphasizing the history of conflict between Turkey and the Kurds, suggesting it can't be contained by the US forever. "It's amazing when you look at history and you look at culture," he says.
...
Asked about the possibility of ISIS escapees, Trump says "Well, they're going to be escaping to Europe."
  #112  
Old 10-09-2019, 04:39 PM
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Like the fucking moron has ever 'looked' at history and culture.
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  #113  
Old 10-09-2019, 04:40 PM
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Trump says Turkey and the Kurds is like Israel and the Palestinians, in terms of how old and strong the hatred is, except maybe the hatred is even stronger.
...
Trump on the Kurds: "They didn't help us in the Second World War, they didn't help us with Normandy." He says they're only interested in fighting for "their land." He adds, "With all of that being said, we like the Kurds."
...
Trump says he goes to Dover Air Force base to greet slain soldiers "when I can." Telling a detailed story, he says that families smile when they see him and thank him for coming, and he thought they were taking the death "so well," but then the coffin comes and they "scream."
  #114  
Old 10-09-2019, 04:45 PM
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Why won't the callous bastard just fucking die, already?
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  #115  
Old 10-09-2019, 04:46 PM
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I can't imagine a more nightmarish scenario than being at Dover to see the transfer of my loved one's remains & finding out I have to also meet an extremely public figure in the midst of it.
  #116  
Old 10-09-2019, 04:50 PM
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I can't imagine a more nightmarish scenario than being at Dover to see the transfer of my loved one's remains & finding out I have to also meet an extremely public figure in the midst of it.
Will need to read an exact transcript of what Trump said to see whether they called him "sir".
  #117  
Old 10-09-2019, 05:10 PM
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Won't anybody think of Trump Towers Istanbul? If Trump doesn't let Erdoğan bomb the hell out of the people who did all of our heavy lifting against ISIS, who's to say what might happen to Trump Towers Istanbul?

Selfish libtards!
  #118  
Old 10-09-2019, 05:27 PM
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Turkey to be hit with sanctions.

Sen. Chris Van Hollen:
Quote:
Today @LindseyGrahamSC and I are announcing a framework for sanctions against Turkey to respond to their military operation in northeastern Syria, which is already underway. These sanctions will have immediate, far-reaching consequences for Erdogan and his military.
...
Our bill includes sanctions on:
→ Turkey's political leadership
→ Military transactions with Turkey
→ Turkey's domestic energy sector

It will also:
→ Prohibit U.S. military support for Turkey
→ Trigger 2017 CAATSA sanctions
→ Restrict U.S. visas for Turkish leadership
  #119  
Old 10-09-2019, 05:37 PM
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Gotta be signed by Dotard, right? And they probably should pass this with a veto-proof tally (which probably won't be hard, but still, it raises the bar a bit higher).

Last edited by JohnT; 10-09-2019 at 05:37 PM.
  #120  
Old 10-09-2019, 05:37 PM
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IMHO, Erdogan started this operation because in Turkey the economy is going worse and he needs to gain "nationalist" votes.
BTW, Kurdistan Workers Party is not a nice organisation.
  #121  
Old 10-09-2019, 08:16 PM
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Fox News Reporter Jennifer Griffin:

https://twitter.com/JenGriffinFNC/st...744276993?s=19

Quote:
"I just spoke to a distraught US Special Forces soldier who is among the 1000 or so US troops in Syria tonight who is serving alongside the SDF Kurdish forces. It was one of the hardest phone calls I have ever taken.

"I am ashamed for the first time in my career."

This veteran US Special forces soldier has trained indigenous forces on multiple continents. He is on the frontlines tonight and said they are witnessing Turkish atrocities.

"Turkey is not doing what it agreed to. It's horrible," this military source on the ground told me.

"We met every single security agreement. The Kurds met every single agreement. There was NO threat to the Turks - NONE - from this side of the border." "This is insanity," the concerned US service member told me. ""I don't know what they call atrocities but they are happening."

This American soldier told me the Kurds have not left their positions guarding the ISIS prisoners. In fact "they prevented a prison break last night without us."
"They are not abandoning our side (yet)."
The Kurds are "pleading for our support." We are doing "nothing."

Troops on the ground in Syria and their commanders were "surprised" by the decision Sunday night.
Of the President's decision: "He doesn't understand the problem. He doesn't understand the repercussions of this. Erdogan is an Islamist, not a level headed actor."

Acc to this US soldier on the ground tonight in Syria: "The Kurds are as close to Western thinking in the Middle East as anyone. "It's a shame. It's horrible." "This is not helping the ISIS fight." Re: ISIS prisoners: "Many of them will be free in the coming days and weeks."

This US Special Forces soldier wanted me to know: "The Kurds are sticking by us. No other partner I have ever dealt with would stand by us."

Disappointed in the decisions coming from their senior leaders.
This soldier sounds more than disappointed. He seems distraught.

Last edited by JohnT; 10-09-2019 at 08:17 PM.
  #122  
Old 10-09-2019, 08:37 PM
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Deep state! Fake news! Soldier with integrity! Unfair!
  #123  
Old 10-09-2019, 08:52 PM
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Deep state! Fake news! Soldier with integrity! Unfair!
MAGA!
  #124  
Old 10-09-2019, 08:55 PM
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Mike Flynn must be happy.
  #125  
Old 10-09-2019, 09:24 PM
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Turkey to be hit with sanctions.

Sen. Chris Van Hollen:
Sure, we'll successfully sanction a country where we have at least 5000 US airmen and store tactical nukes.

ETA: I'm sure Mike Flynn's thrilled! Now if only Turkey'd get rid of all those Muslims, he'd be in heaven.

Last edited by Nawth Chucka; 10-09-2019 at 09:28 PM.
  #126  
Old 10-09-2019, 10:57 PM
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The US betraying allies isn't news; what's news is that the American government is betraying Americans. It's only fitting that we betray the Kurds. It wouldn't be right to betray ourselves and not betray a foreign ally.
  #127  
Old 10-09-2019, 11:07 PM
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Fox News Reporter Jennifer Griffin:

https://twitter.com/JenGriffinFNC/st...744276993?s=19



This soldier sounds more than disappointed. He seems distraught.
I have no sympathy for the soldiers who just blindly shout "Hoo rah" for any jackass republican who wraps himself in the flag and screams bloody murder the moment a democrat with an IQ over room temperature enters the Oval Office.

I'm done with troop worship. Done with 9/11 flag waving. Done with yellow stickers. Done with all that shit. We're not defending country. We're just engaging in global jackassery.
  #128  
Old 10-09-2019, 11:18 PM
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No, I'm crystal clear on who is starting the war. We're simply not going to intervene on the other (Kurd) side, by bombing Turks or shooting down Turkish jets. That's not remotely realistic.
Gee. Maybe your boy should not have started this whole shit show with his tweet the other day then.

This debacle is 100% on Trump. He owns it. Including all the ISIS fighters who will now be free to go back to whatever it is they like to do.

Oh, they'll just go to Europe and blow stuff up there... so tough titty for them foreigners.
  #129  
Old 10-09-2019, 11:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Walken After Midnight View Post
Turkey to be hit with sanctions.

Sen. Chris Van Hollen:
So Trump destroys the US relationship with the Kurds, who helped fight ISIS.

Then the US destroys the US relationship with Turkey, because Trump told them to go ahead and attack the Kurds.

Makes sense. Fuck everything up. "Look everyone! Over there! The world is fucked up!!! Stop thinking about my impeachment!"
  #130  
Old 10-09-2019, 11:22 PM
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Gee. Maybe your boy should not have started this whole shit show with his tweet the other day then.

This debacle is 100% on Trump. He owns it. Including all the ISIS fighters who will now be free to go back to whatever it is they like to do.

Oh, they'll just go to Europe and blow stuff up there... so tough titty for them foreigners.
It's not 100% on Trump; it's on Bush, and even more importantly, it's on Lindsay "I'm gay as hell but don't want to admit it" Graham. I blame Graham more than anyone. He's the chickenshit who voted for war in the Middle East, claimed to be a never Trumper, but then became the biggest gobbler of Trump's junk of any member of congress. Total coward. Been there all along as the US has wrecked an entire region.
  #131  
Old 10-09-2019, 11:24 PM
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Oh, and as an added bonus, Trump shits on NATO again today. Good job Trump. Is there anyone you have not pissed off lately?

<thinks>

Putin seems awfully happy.
  #132  
Old 10-09-2019, 11:26 PM
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It's not 100% on Trump; it's on Bush, and even more importantly, it's on Lindsay "I'm gay as hell but don't want to admit it" Graham. I blame Graham more than anyone. He's the chickenshit who voted for war in the Middle East, claimed to be a never Trumper, but then became the biggest gobbler of Trump's junk of any member of congress. Total coward. Been there all along as the US has wrecked an entire region.
Moscow Mitch and Graham are the wormtounges to Trump's Saruman.

(Well, if Saruman was a complete fecking moron)
  #133  
Old 10-09-2019, 11:58 PM
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Oh, and as an added bonus, Trump shits on NATO again today. Good job Trump. Is there anyone you have not pissed off lately?

<thinks>

Putin seems awfully happy.
Could it be....SATAN![/church lady]
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  #134  
Old 10-10-2019, 12:13 AM
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Have the Kurds ever had an US president who was truly supportive of them? Trump is an unusually bad POTUS for them, but I don't recall Obama, Bush, Clinton, etc. ever been favorable to them (although GWB's invasion of Iraq and deposing of Saddam probably did them a big indirect favor). I don't get the sense that any of the (D) candidates for next year care about them either.
  #135  
Old 10-10-2019, 12:55 AM
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I just don't understand why Erdogan abandoned the Security Zone process. Everything I've read indicates it was working and US forces & Kurds were complying with the terms.

I predict now this betrayal more than anything else will cost Trump the election. Americans will be shocked at the outcome of slaughter and upheaval in Syria.


https://www.foxnews.com/world/turkey...mpression=true
Quote:
A member of U.S. Special Forces serving alongside the Kurdish-led Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) in Syria told Fox News on Wednesday they were witnessing Turkish atrocities on the frontlines.

“I am ashamed for the first time in my career,” said the distraught soldier, who has been involved in the training of indigenous forces on multiple continents. The hardened service member is among the 1,000 or so U.S. troops who remain in Syria.

“Turkey is not doing what it agreed to. It’s horrible,” the military source on the ground said. “We met every single security agreement. The Kurds met every single agreement [with the Turks]. There was no threat to the Turks -- none -- from this side of the border."
Lindsey Graham
@LindseyGrahamSC
I have tried to work with Turkey to satisfy their legitimate national security concerns.

I find the threat to invade into Syria – made by President Erdogan -- to be disrespectful of those efforts and a major escalation of tensions between the US and Turkey

Last edited by aceplace57; 10-10-2019 at 12:59 AM.
  #136  
Old 10-10-2019, 01:07 AM
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This whole time Erdogan was building up forces to invade. Turkey never intended to let the Security Zone process work.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nort...ia_Buffer_Zone
Quote:
The DMZ was managed by United States Armed Forces and Turkish Armed Forces personnel until the agreement was abandoned and in early October 2019 after U.S. President Donald Trump gave his approval of Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan's planned ground incursion into northern Syria, reportedly after the latter promised to take responsibility for ISIL captives in Syrian Democratic Forces-run prisons. The subsequent Turkish ground offensive rendered the buffer zone obsolete before it was ever fully implemented.

Last edited by aceplace57; 10-10-2019 at 01:11 AM.
  #137  
Old 10-10-2019, 02:36 AM
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I find myself of 2 minds on this one.

1) Yes, we have betrayed the Kurds. He also said the Kurds,have been paid “massive amounts of money and equipment” by the U.S. That is a truly despicable statement.

2) Trump said, “It is time for us to get out of these ridiculous Endless Wars, many of them tribal, and bring our soldiers home.” Arguably, he is not wrong about this.

It seems to me that once again Trump is doing something that is at least arguably good in the worst possible way and for the worst possible reasons. And in a way that is guaranteed to cause the most amount of harm to others.
The second one sounds like a nice sentiment, but in this case it's actually bullshit.

As the LA Times editorial points out:
Quote:
Even if you sympathize — as this page does — with the desire to keep the U.S. out of quagmires, unwinnable conflicts and “endless wars” that don’t affect vital American interests, the stabilizing role played by U.S. forces in Syria is not an example of intolerable overreach. It’s a markedly more modest and less dangerous commitment than the continued U.S. military mission in Afghanistan and it serves two purposes: protecting the Syrian Kurds from Turkey (which sees them as terrorists aligned with Kurdish insurgents from Turkey) and preventing the resurgence of Islamic State.

There is a danger that U.S. troops might stay too long in Syria and become hostages to regional politics. But decisions on whether and when to withdraw those forces should be made by the president after respectful consultation with experts and allies, the sort of deliberative process Trump disdains. This episode is a reminder that, whether or not Congress concludes that Trump committed “high crimes and misdemeanors” deserving of impeachment, he is operatically incompetent in discharging the duties of the presidency.
  #138  
Old 10-10-2019, 02:42 AM
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Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham of South Carolina and Democratic Sen. Chris Van Hollen of Maryland on Wednesday announced a framework to place immediate sanctions on senior Turkish government officials, ban all US military business and military transactions with Turkey, and immediately activate 2017 sanctions on the country until Ankara stops its operations against the Kurds.
Hey here's an idea Senator Graham:

How about if you work to remove the FUCKING MADMAN who started this whole shit-show off with his insane tweet that gave the go-ahead for the slaughter?

It's not hard - simply work with the Democrats to release EVIDENCE for Trump's impeachment investigation? You don't even have to do anything difficult. You just have to do WHAT IS LEGAL AND MORAL. Think you can manage that, you pustule?
  #139  
Old 10-10-2019, 02:48 AM
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Economic sanctions? We tried that already with many other countries like Iran, N Korea, Russia and it doesn't do a damn bit of good.
Right. That's why Putin wants nothing more than to have sanctions removed. Because they don't do a damn bit of good. Hell, it was even in the Mueller Report:
Quote:
Russian President Vladimir Putin urged a Russian banking executive with ties to one of the country’s largest commercial banks to establish a line of communication with the incoming Trump administration following the 2016 U.S. presidential election, according to special counsel Robert Mueller’s report on Russian interference in the election.

Mr. Putin’s chief concern, according to the report: U.S. sanctions.
Because sanctions don't work, right?

Here is evidence in handy chart form how they have worked in Iran, for example.

There's a lot of evidence sanctions work, especially when allies share in the sanctions, and certainly that they are less detrimental than war or other actions taken against international bad actors.
  #140  
Old 10-10-2019, 03:00 AM
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I predict now this betrayal more than anything else will cost Trump the election. Americans will be shocked at the outcome of slaughter and upheaval in Syria.
Right. The same Americans who don't know where Syria is on a map.

Here's the talking point (and it's already been uttered in this very thread): "I'm just looking to get our servicemen home, we're tired of inserting ourselves into the affairs of other countries."

It's bullshit, but so is nearly every White House talking point. Republicans in congress will start saying their lines, the Right Wing Media will amplify them, and in this case you'll even see staunchly anti-war so-called "progressives" thrilled (they are of course not smart enough to understand the complexities of the issues, or see how Trump's actions are actually making for *more* death and instability and when Isis makes a comeback, then we'll declare war on them yet again or whatever terrorist group our dumb actions help birth this time).

Now, it could be something which finally erodes the support from Republicans in congress. There is evidence of this. But the average voter? I don't see it. We have too many people on both sides of the spectrum who are ignorant or oblivious to international policy.
  #141  
Old 10-10-2019, 05:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Trump
[The Kurds] didn't help us in the Second World War, they didn't help us with Normandy.
Forget it - he's rolling.

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Originally Posted by Walken After Midnight View Post
Turkey to be hit with sanctions.
Give it seven weeks and he'll pardon them.
  #142  
Old 10-10-2019, 08:07 AM
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The US president told reporters that the Kurds “didn’t help us in the second world war, they didn’t help us with Normandy as an example – they mention the names of different battles, they weren’t there”

Of course Trump is allied with Germany - presumably because they were at Normandy.

P.S. If you really want to know how dumb the President is:

Trump said he learned that the Kurds didn’t help in Normandy from a “very, very powerful article”....

Who knew that a persecuted minority in the Middle East didn't join in the D-day landings?
  #143  
Old 10-10-2019, 09:27 AM
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The US president told reporters that the Kurds “didn’t help us in the second world war, they didn’t help us with Normandy as an example – they mention the names of different battles, they weren’t there”

Of course Trump is allied with Germany - presumably because they were at Normandy.

P.S. If you really want to know how dumb the President is:

Trump said he learned that the Kurds didn’t help in Normandy from a “very, very powerful article”....

Who knew that a persecuted minority in the Middle East didn't join in the D-day landings?
If anyone is interested, here’s the “very powerful article”.

https://townhall.com/columnists/kurt...-wars-n2554328

TL/dr TRUMP GOOD, EVERYONE ELSE BAD.
  #144  
Old 10-10-2019, 10:30 AM
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It seems that the Turkish leader is using humans as weapons now. I probably didn't phrase that accurately, so his own words:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Recep Tayyip Erdogan
"Hey EU, wake up. I say it again: if you try to frame our operation there as an invasion, our task is simple: we will open the doors and send 3.6 million migrants to you," he said.
Heard it on my morning news; found something online here: https://www.telegraph.co.uk...
  #145  
Old 10-10-2019, 11:09 AM
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The sad but simple truth is, this is the fate of people like the Kurds - people with a distinct identity but no nation-state advocating for them. The Turkish have done this before, destroying the Armenian people within their borders to make the land easier to rule. And now they'll try to do it to the Kurds.

After the Germans tried to wipe out the Jews, we all said, never again. Yet since then we've seen genocide in Cambodia, Rwanda, and many other countries. Usually, the world's response is tepid, comes too late, and does little of consequence. I fear that this will be the case here, too. It's unfortunate - the Kurds share many of our values, they've greatly aided us in the war against ISIS, and they could be our staunch allies. They are exactly the kinds of people we should ally ourselves with if we want to bring peace, democracy, and human rights to the region. Instead, we kowtow to dictators and monarchs and debase ourselves before them. It's disgusting.
  #146  
Old 10-10-2019, 11:11 AM
Babale is online now
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I want to be hopeful, but I'm afraid that the Kurds -- like the people of Hong Kong -- are well and truly screwed.
  #147  
Old 10-10-2019, 11:17 AM
HurricaneDitka is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shunpiker View Post
It seems that the Turkish leader is using humans as weapons now. I probably didn't phrase that accurately, so his own words:

Heard it on my morning news; found something online here: https://www.telegraph.co.uk...
This is not the first time he's done something like that.
  #148  
Old 10-10-2019, 01:31 PM
Elendil's Heir is offline
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A stupid, short-sighted, ally-betraying, immoral, pro-Russia foreign policy decision. In other words, just another day in Trumpworld.
  #149  
Old 10-10-2019, 08:06 PM
Northern Piper is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nawth Chucka View Post
Sure, we'll successfully sanction a country where we have at least 5000 US airmen and store tactical nukes.

ETA: I'm sure Mike Flynn's thrilled! Now if only Turkey'd get rid of all those Muslims, he'd be in heaven.
How is that any different from making a formal legal finding that Canada is a threat to the national security of the United States?

You know, the country that is a key part of NORAD and early warning in the far north? A NATO member?

The US no longer has allies. You have countries with whom you have treaty relations, but you no longer have the trust that the world "ally" carries.

We can't trust the US. Haven't since the day your leader refused to affirm that an attack on one NATO member is an attack on all.
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  #150  
Old 10-10-2019, 08:21 PM
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manson1972 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aceplace57 View Post
Americans will be shocked at the outcome of slaughter and upheaval in Syria.
You actually believe that most Americans care about brown people being killed in the Middle East? We've been drone bombing people for almost 2 decades.
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