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  #151  
Old 10-20-2019, 09:23 PM
F. U. Shakespeare is offline
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My favorite version:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jREUrbGGrgM
  #152  
Old 10-20-2019, 09:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Exapno Mapcase View Post
Yeah! If we slaughter them all to the last literate man and woman they wouldn't be able to write anything!

Wrong answer. Reconstruction and its forced failure saw the losing traitors restored to power. And with gerrymandered districts and unpopular electoral-college wins, we install losers in power in the US. That works pretty good, sure-nuff.
  #153  
Old 10-20-2019, 10:42 PM
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Wrong answer.
Seriously? There was a right answer to "Why do we let the losers write history?"?
  #154  
Old 10-21-2019, 12:24 AM
Some Call Me... Tim is offline
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Originally Posted by Horatio Hellpop View Post
Let me broaden the question here: How many AMERICAN writers, poets or thinkers had critical or popular acclaim in England or Europe before 1861? The answer is, maybe four total, and one of them--who had spent the bulk of his adult life and the whole of his childhood in Richmond and Baltimore--was Edgar Allan Poe. You want to paint the antebellum South as a cultural empty glass? The rest of the country was in about the same shape.
Oddly for a man who spent "the whole of his childhood in Richmond and Baltimore", Poe was born in Boston and was in Scotland and England from 1815-1820, attending several different schools there.
  #155  
Old 10-21-2019, 02:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Exapno Mapcase View Post
Seriously? There was a right answer to "Why do we let the losers write history?"?
Try this:

Because the winners eventually didn't care that they'd won. Southern traitors seceded for slavery; that's in the secession documents. The United States defaulted to fight to end slavery, and wrote that into the Constitution, but then quit enforcing rights for blacks. White northerners thus thought white traitors smelled better than black citizens.

The winners forgave the losers and didn't bother truthifying; c.f the destruction of Reconstruction. The losers got to lie all they wanted. We see how well that's worked out.
  #156  
Old 10-21-2019, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Some Call Me... Tim View Post
Oddly for a man who spent "the whole of his childhood in Richmond and Baltimore", Poe was born in Boston and was in Scotland and England from 1815-1820, attending several different schools there.
From the age of one to the age of 18, he spent five years in Britain, one in Charlottesville and pretty much the balance in Richmond. The North's claim on his formative years is pretty tenuous.
  #157  
Old 10-21-2019, 09:58 AM
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Just as an outside data point, I associate Poe with Baltimore, Boston and New York. The last two are definitely not Southern, and the first one certainly wasn't part of the Confederate South, and I don't think, as an outsider, that it was part of what I'd call Southern "culture", for want of a better word, either.
  #158  
Old 10-21-2019, 12:18 PM
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Is the Confederacy/South more interesting than the Union/North?


Oh, pre-Civil War Baltimore was quite South. The Union guns on Federal Hill were not all pointing outward.

And gotta agree with RioRico, political and business considerations among the Northern Establishment led to a policy of “reconciliation” with the Southern Establishment, that lasted into the mid-20th Century, and part of it was not pushing back against the Lost Cause mythos in order to “let them keep their dignity”.

One wonders, if the North may have looked the other way for a while longer if the South had just desisted from expanding slavery to new territories or seeking to enforce runaway laws in the free states (just as in our timeline for decades it did not care about Jim Crow as long as it stayed in the South).

Last edited by JRDelirious; 10-21-2019 at 12:20 PM.
  #159  
Old 10-21-2019, 12:34 PM
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If I may junior-mod a bit before the thread goes off tracks: This thread is not asking about the morality of either side - obviously, the Confederacy was more evil. I am asking which side was/is more interesting to an audience to write about, or provides more fodder for the arts. ISTM there was a good argument that Gone With the Wind was successful because it was about the South, not the North.
Little Women was successful, and it was set in New England.
  #160  
Old 10-21-2019, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Ají de Gallina View Post
It's like, in WWII, Germany is far more interesting tan France or Poland, or even the UK.
The were genocidal monsters, of course, but they are more interesting in a creepy way.
The serial murderer is more interesting than the teacher that helps underprivileged kids.
...Jerry Springer is more interesting than Mike Douglas.
  #161  
Old 10-21-2019, 12:41 PM
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One wonders, if the North may have looked the other way for a while longer if the South had just desisted from expanding slavery to new territories or seeking to enforce runaway laws in the free states (just as in our timeline for decades it did not care about Jim Crow as long as it stayed in the South).
I strongly suspect they would have, particularly as there were and still are a great many racists all over (unquestionably ire, by proportion, and more virulent then than now, though). If the southern states had really wanted to preserve the institution of slavery (and they did), then secession was the dumbest thing they could have done. There were enough slave-holding states (fifteen in all) to stave off anything like even the 13th amendment into the present day, even without expansion. By unlawfully attempting to secede, they gave those "radical Republicans" the window needed to build an anti-slavery consensus in the North, and then out in place puppet governments as southern governments were defeated, ensuring they could ram through whatever "wild, crazy, downright dangerous" legislation or amendments they desired.

I mean, can you imagine it, giving slaves and the like not only their freedom, but citizenship and the right to vote? Horror!

And yet the blundering of incompetent southern politicians led directly to it. I suppose we should be grateful to them, in a perverse sort of way, for their fomenting a bloody rebellion. Their actions, though horribly wrong, were as integral to the salvation of the soul of United States as Judas's betrayal of Jesus is supposed to have been to the salvation of all mankind according to most Christian ideologies.

Last edited by ASL v2.0; 10-21-2019 at 12:41 PM.
  #162  
Old 10-21-2019, 12:49 PM
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I'd say Gone With the Wind was successful because it was about people with money. The rich are always seen as more interesting than the middle class or poor. I don't see that a story of a shop owner in antebellum Alabama is more interesting than that of a shop owner in Connecticut in the same time period.
Little Women was successful, and the March family were as poor as churchmice...

  #163  
Old 10-21-2019, 01:17 PM
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Hello. This was the sentence in question.



I’d say that “the antebellum South” includes the entire region, so seeing the other eras (“the Jim-Crow South” etc.) as region-wide is an understandable interpretation. BUT! It’s almost impossible to think that Exapno was also saying, “Fuck the slaves,” so taking his remark to include All Southerners is, ultimately, a flawed interpretation.

I kinda doubt he even meant to include every white Southern. So, outrage is unwarranted, but slightly understandable.
Ehh. It’s the kind of outrage that’s understandable in the sense of “I understand that you’re looking for a plausible reason to take offense.”
  #164  
Old 10-22-2019, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by MrDibble View Post
Just as an outside data point, I associate Poe with Baltimore, Boston and New York. The last two are definitely not Southern, and the first one certainly wasn't part of the Confederate South, and I don't think, as an outsider, that it was part of what I'd call Southern "culture", for want of a better word, either.
Poe died a good 12 years before the Confederacy started, so his place in the Confederate south is kind of irrelevant. They owned slaves and were south of the actual Mason-Dixon line. As for their wartime sympathies, my Baltimore-native uncle pointed out to me (a Virginian) that "Maryland didn't have a river to hide behind."
  #165  
Old 10-22-2019, 06:26 PM
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Enlist enough propagandists, and ANY place can seem interesting. Frame your image and go. I can make a sewage line sound and look quaint or futuristic from the right angle(s).

During the War of Southern Treason, the United States extended out to my California mountain mining community. Union vs Traitor fights raged in the main streets. The vast scope of the United States made it more interesting than the Traitor states, with fewer lies needed.
  #166  
Old 10-24-2019, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Horatio Hellpop View Post
Poe died a good 12 years before the Confederacy started, so his place in the Confederate south is kind of irrelevant.
I'd say it's very relevant to whether the Confederacy gets to claim him for their side.
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They owned slaves and were south of the actual Mason-Dixon line.
Doesn't matter, fought on the Union side.
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As for their wartime sympathies, my Baltimore-native uncle pointed out to me (a Virginian) that "Maryland didn't have a river to hide behind."
That and half Maryland's Blacks were Free, and the city wasn't beholden to the plantations, having moved to industrialization well before the war. Like - when Poe lived there. Like I said, they weren't really part of the same Southern culture by then.

And Poe wasn't a Southern writer. When he wasn't in Baltimore or Richmond, he was in New York, or Philly, or Boston. His first published work was as "A Bostonian".

Last edited by MrDibble; 10-24-2019 at 10:19 AM.
  #167  
Old 10-24-2019, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by kaylasdad99 View Post
Little Women was successful, and the March family were as poor as churchmice...

The March family was struggling middle class. They had a home and a servant as opposed to the March girls working as servants like the girls from families that were truly as poor as churchmice had to do.
  #168  
Old 10-26-2019, 01:04 PM
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Underdogs are artistically more interesting. By no statistical rational measure should the South have won. And they didn't. Artistically at least there's sympathy for those fighting a lost cause.

Artistic representation of the Southern struggle FOR Southerners has been cheaply written about though.

So many that fought never owned a slave and would never be able to afford one. So why preserve the institution with your life? Racism? Hardly. Abolitionists abounded in the North and South that never cared about black lives, it was a ruling aristocracy they wanted to prevent. The poor white southern sharecropper was a misguided fool who clung to notions of local identity rather than national. The shame is racism helped divide poor white people from poor black people so rich white people stay in power and do to this day.

It's a shame that story never seems to be told.
  #169  
Old 10-26-2019, 10:04 PM
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So many that fought never owned a slave and would never be able to afford one. So why preserve the institution with your life? Racism? Hardly. Abolitionists abounded in the North and South that never cared about black lives, it was a ruling aristocracy they wanted to prevent. The poor white southern sharecropper was a misguided fool who clung to notions of local identity rather than national. The shame is racism helped divide poor white people from poor black people so rich white people stay in power and do to this day.

It's a shame that story never seems to be told.
Actually The Free State of Jones (2016) depicts the revolt of poor whites and escaped slaves against the Confederacy.
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