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  #201  
Old 02-20-2006, 03:55 AM
BabaBooey is offline
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Clusterfucks = most appropriate roto-team name ever, working just as hard in the offseason as it does during the regular.
  #202  
Old 02-23-2006, 09:13 PM
Omniscient is offline
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I ought to get my potential keepers on paper.

1. (3) S. Alexander
2. (26) C. Johnson
3. (31) J. Arrington
4. (54) T. Jones
5. (59) T. Houshmandzadeh
6. (82) Carolina
7. (87) B. Leftwich
8. (110) M. Robinson
9. (115) A. Brooks
10. (138) M. Vanderjagt
11. (143) Mi. Clayton
12. (166) Q. Griffin
13. (171) B. Franks
14. (194) K. Curtis
15. (199) M. Booker
16. () D. Rhodes
  #203  
Old 02-24-2006, 01:52 AM
Ellis Dee is offline
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He Hate Me Keeper League Year 3 Roundup (Second year with keepers)

Keeper Rules
1. You can only keep a maximum of 3 players.
2. You can only keep players drafted after the third round. (Fourth rounders or later only.)
3. A player can only be kept a maximum of twice. (Making 3 total roster years.)
4. A kept player incures a two round penalty. (e.g: drafted in the 6th, kept in the 4th.)
5. The deadline for declaring keepers isn't until at least next year's thread is started.

Hall of Fame
Year 1 winner: mouthbreather (Although rosters were lost, so no keepers going into year 2, allowing me to join.)
Year 2 winner: Spiritus Mundi
Year 3 winner: Spiritus Mundi

Final Standings: Year 3
1. Mundi Morning Blues
2. Cedric Benson Busts
3. Fourth And Nineteen
4. Varlos' Zzzzzzz
5. BoomGoesTheDynamite
6. New York Fanboys
7. Rhinosaurs(neuroman)
8. Clusterfucks
9. Crabby Hermits
10. Feed My Family
11. Moridwon
12. Baltimore Wierdos
13. Fightin' Quakers
14. Pentium None

Draft Order, Year 4
1. BoomGoesTheDynamite
2. New York Fanboys
3. Rhinosaurs(neuroman)
4. Clusterfucks
5. Pentium None
6. Fightin' Quakers
7. Baltimore Wierdos
8. Moridwon
9. Feed My Family
10. Crabby Hermits
11. Varlos' Zzzzzzz
12. Fourth and Nineteen
13. Cedric Benson Busts
14. Mundi Morning Blues

Settings (Not in stone, but this is what we used this year.)
Max Teams: 14
Scoring Type: Head-to-Head
Start Scoring on: Week 1
Can't Cut List Provider: Yahoo! Sports
Max Moves: No maximum
Max Trades: No maximum
Trade Reject Time: 2
Trade End Date: November 18, 2005
Trade Review: League Votes
Waiver Time: 2 days
Post Draft Players: Follow Waiver Rules
Playoffs: Week 15 and 16 (4 teams)
Roster Positions: QB, WR, WR, RB, RB, TE, W/R, K, DEF, BN, BN, BN, BN, BN, BN, BN

Stat Categories (Not in stone, but this is what we used this year.)
Passing Yards (30 yards per point)
Passing Touchdowns (6)
Interceptions (-2)
Rushing Yards (10 yards per point)
Rushing Touchdowns (6)
Reception Yards (10 yards per point)
Reception Touchdowns (6)
Return Yards (30 yards per point)
Return Touchdowns (6)
2-Point Conversions (2)
Fumbles Lost (-2)
Offensive Fumble Return TD (6)
Field Goals 0-19 Yards (3)
Field Goals 20-29 Yards (3)
Field Goals 30-39 Yards (3)
Field Goals 40-49 Yards (4)
Field Goals 50+ Yards (5)
Point After Attempt Made (1)
Sack (1)
Interception (2)
Fumble Recovery (1)
Touchdown (6)
Safety (2)
Block Kick (2)
Kickoff and Punt Return Touchdowns (6)
Points Allowed 0 points (10)
Points Allowed 1-6 points (7)
Points Allowed 7-13 points (4)
Points Allowed 14-20 points (1)
Points Allowed 21-27 points (0)
Points Allowed 28-34 points (-1)
Points Allowed 35+ points (-4)
Fractional Points: Yes
Negative Points: Yes

The next post will contain the complete list of all final rosters with keeper eligibility. Thanks to the recent posts by a few owners, I only have a few more to do, so I'm doing it now.

Trades are allowed before the draft, and in fact at least one has already happened. Feel free to post details of your trades after the roster roundup to follow. I encourage you do this, to make it easy to remember when we begin next year's league.
  #204  
Old 02-24-2006, 04:17 AM
Ellis Dee is offline
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Here's the complete list of final rosters, in next year's draft order, with keeper info. Note that all draft rounds are from THIS year, so anyone you keep will cost a draft pick two rounds earlier.

Players not eligible to be keepers have been struck out, along with the reason they are ineligible. Players eligible for keeper status are followed with their draft round, how many times they've been kept before, and how acquired if the owner didn't draft them. I also bolded the keepers that look promising.

Players kept last year can be kept again, but this is their final year of eligibility. This applies even if you weren't the owner who kept them last year. (Right?)

As a final note, the yahoo site isn't the final word. Partially because for some reason they don't list the final standings properly, (eg: the consolation bracket is a clusterfuck,) but also because we had several drafting fuckups where somebody accidentally drafted somebody else's keeper. VarlosZ did a great job correcting this back on page 3, which is the list I went by for determining keeper eligibility.

1. BoomGoesTheDynamite (Munch)
QB C. Palmer (10th round pick) - kept last year
WR Ji. Smith (5th round pick)
WR D. Bennett (6th round pick) - kept last year
RB T. Duckett (7th round pick)
RB Z. Crockett (free agent)
TE J. Stevens (free agent)
W/R Ma. Clayton (free agent)
BN L. Jordan (5th rounder, trade from Baltimore Weirdos) - kept last year
BN L. Smith (8th round pick)
BN M. Alstott (free agent)
BN S. Bryson (free agent)
BN M. Jenkins (15th round pick)
BN A. Chatman (free agent)
K J. Kasay (free agent)
DEF Minnesota (released and re-signed)
BN Indianapolis (free agent)

2. New York Fanboys (Ellis Dee)
QB E. Manning (9th round pick)
WR P. Burress (6th rounder, trade from Baltimore Weirdos.)
WR A. Toomer (12th round pick)
RB T. Barber (1st rounder)
RB J. Sowell (free agent)
TE J. Shockey (4th round pick)
W/R L. Coles (3rd rounder)
BN J. McCareins (14th round pick)
BN C. Martin (2nd rounder)
BN W. Ponder (free agent)
BN T. Carter (free agent)
BN D. Ward (free agent)
K J. Feely (7th round pick)
BN M. Nugent (released and re-signed)
DEF New York Giants (8th round pick)
BN New York Jets (released and re-signed)

3. Rhinosaurs (neuroman)
QB J. Plummer (7th round pick)
WR H. Ward (Free agent? Looks like an eligible 4th rounder acquired by trade from Mundi. Not kept last year.)
WR Ro. Williams (7th round pick) - kept last year
RB C. Portis (1st rounder)
RB M. Barber (free agent
TE T. Heap (6th round pick)
W/R D. Driver (4th round pick)
BN J. Jones (2nd rounder)
BN T. Bell (2nd rounder, trade from Baltimore Weirdos.)
BN D. Brees (8th round pick)
BN D. Stallworth (10th round pick)
BN K. McCardell (11th round pick)
K J. Reed (12th round pick)
DEF Philadelphia (9th round pick)
BN Seattle (free agent
BN Washington (free agent

4. Clusterfucks (BabaBooey)
QB M. Brunell (free agent)
WR E. Kennison (5th round pick)
WR D. Branch (6th round pick) - kept last year
RB C. Williams (3rd rounder)
RB C. Houston (free agent for Speedy McQuickFingers...heh)
TE J. Wiggins (12th round pick))
W/R R. Williams (13th round pick) - kept last year (BWAHAHAHAHA)
BN K. Warner (7th round pick)
BN M. Moore (4th round pick)
BN B. Edwards (8th round pick)
BN K. Orton (16th round pick)
BN R. Fitzpatrick (free agent)
BN M. Hicks (14th rounder, may be ineligible; possible trade from Feed My Family)
K L. Tynes (15th round pick)
DEF Chicago (14th round pick)
BN Dallas (10th round pick)

5. Pentium None (Nurse Carmen)
QB P. Manning (1st rounder)
WR C. Chambers (5th round pick)
WR J. Horn (3rd rounder)
RB D. Foster (2nd rounder)
RB M. Faulk (4th round pick)
TE C. Cooley (10th round pick)
W/R K. Robinson (free agent)
BN W. Welker (free agent)
BN B. Watson (free agent)
BN N. Burleson (11th round pick) - kept last year
BN T. Taylor (14th round pick)
BN J. Bettis (7th round pick) - kept last year
BN B. Roethlisberger (12th round pick) - kept last year
K R. Lindell (free agent)
DEF Tennessee (free agent)
BN St. Louis (free agent)

6. Fightin' Quakers (furt)
QB D. Garrard (free agent)
WR M. Muhammad (8th round pick) - kept last year
WR L. Fitzgerald (5th round pick)
RB F. Gore (10th round pick)
RB M. Bennett (3rd rounder)
TE H. Miller (9th round pick)
W/R S. Smith (4th round pick)
BN M. McMahon (free agent)
BN K. Holcomb (free agent)
BN T. Thompson (free agent)
BN Ma. Jones (11th round pick)
BN R. Brown (3rd rounder, trade from Moridwon)
BN J. Arrington (3rd rounder, trade from Cedrick Benson Busts)
BN R. Dayne (13th round pick)
K N. Kaeding (free agent)
DEF Arizona (14th round pick)

7. Baltimore Weirdos (Weirddave)
QB K. Boller (free agent)
WR J. Porter (5th round pick)
WR C. Henry (free agent)
RB R. Droughns (4th round pick)
RB S. Davis (9th round pick)
TE A. Gates (10th round pick) - kept last year
W/R L. Johnson (9th rounder, trade from BoomGoesTheDynamite) - kept last year
BN K. Collins (4th rounder, trade from BoomGoesTheDynamite)
BN A. Hakim (free agent)
BN D. Givens (8th round pick)
BN D. Hall (free agent)
BN K. Barlow (3rd rounder)
BN G. Frerotte (free agent)
K M. Stover (11th round pick)
DEF Baltimore (7th round pick)
BN Jacksonville (free agent)

8. Moridwon (Hamlet)
QB M. Vick (6th round pick)
WR R. Moss (1st rounder)
WR J. Jurevicius (free agent)
RB S. Jackson (4th round pick) - kept last year
RB G. Jones (free agent)
TE R. McMichael (8th round pick) - kept last year
W/R R. Brown (3rd rounder)
BN K. Jones (2nd rounder)
BN B. Favre (5th round pick)
BN T. Williamson (11th round pick)
BN M. Pittman (11th rounder - trade from Fourth and Nineteen)
BN B. Jones (free agent)
K J. Brown (free agent)
BN R. Bironas (free agent)
DEF Miami (free agent)
BN Buffalo (10th round pick)

9. Feed My Family (Jimmy Chitwood)
QB T. Green (3rd rounder)
WR J. Galloway (4th round pick)
WR M. Harrison (2nd rounder)
RB J. Lewis (1st rounder)
RB D. Sproles (free agent)
TE A. Crumpler (5th round pick)
W/R A. Boldin (6th round pick) - kept last year
BN S. McNair (10th round pick)
BN B. Lloyd (11th round pick)
BN D. Staley (7th round pick)
BN A. Bryant (12th round pick)
BN D. Carr (9th round pick) - kept last year
BN R. Moats (14th rounder, may be ineligible; possible trade from Moridwon)
K J. Wilkins (14th rounder, may be ineligible; possible trade from BoomGoesTheDynamite)
BN N. Rackers (free agent)
DEF Denver (16th rounder, may be ineligible; possible trade from Moridwon)

10. Crabby Hermits (The Mad Hermit)
QB D. Bledsoe (9th round pick)
WR I. Bruce (5th round pick)
WR P. Crayton (free agent)
RB C. Brown (2nd rounder)
RB C. Dillon (1st rounder)
TE Da. Clark (7th round pick)
W/R W. Parker (11th round pick)
BN A. Randle El (10th round pick)
BN A. Lelie (6th round pick) - kept last year
BN A. Brooks (9th rounder, may be ineligible; possible trade from Cedric Benson Busts)
BN R. Proehl (free agent)
BN V. Haynes (free agent)
BN A. Smith (free agent)
BN R. Smart (free agent)
K J. Elam (8th round pick) - kept last year
DEF Pittsburgh (12th round pick) - kept last year

11. Varlos' Zzzzzzz (VarlosZ)
QB M. Hasselbeck (4th round pick)
WR T. Holt (2nd rounder)
WR Ke. Johnson (8th round pick)
RB E. James (1st rounder)
RB W. McGahee (5th round pick) - kept last year
TE J. Witten (6th round pick)
W/R B. Engram (10th round pick)
BN R. Ferguson (12th round pick)
BN E. Wilford (free agent)
BN B. Jacobs (13th round pick) (fucker!)
BN L. Evans (free agent)
BN D. Jackson (4th rounder, may be ineligible; possible trade from Crabby Hermits)
BN C. Simms (free agent)
BN P. Pass (free agent)
K S. Janikowski (14th round pick)
DEF Green Bay (free agent)

12. Fourth and Nineteen (Wilson)
QB J. Delhomme (8th round pick)
WR R. Wayne (4th round pick) - kept last year
WR D. Mason (5th round pick)
RB L. Tomlinson (#1 overall)
RB F. Taylor (2nd rounder)
TE J. Putzier (free agent)
W/R J. Wells (free agent)
BN A. Smith (free agent)
BN S. Gado (free agent)
BN E. Moulds (7th round pick)
BN B. Stokley (12th round pick) - kept last year
BN M. Williams (9th round pick)
BN P. Rivers (16th round pick)
BN E. Parker (free agent)
K S. Graham (free agent)
DEF Atlanta (10th round pick)

13. Cedric Benson Busts (Omniscient)
QB C. Frye (free agent)
WR K. Curtis (14th round pick)
WR C. Johnson (2nd rounder)
RB S. Alexander (1st rounder)
RB T. Jones (4th round pick)
TE B. Troupe (15th rounder, may be ineligible; possible trade from Fightin' Quakers)
W/R T. Houshmandzadeh (5th round pick)
BN J. Losman (free agent)
BN B. Bollinger (free agent)
BN B. Finneran (free agent)
BN A. Peterson (free agent)
BN D. Rhodes (16th round pick)
BN M. Robinson (8th round pick)
BN C. Perry (free agent)
K M. Vanderjagt (10th round pick)
DEF Carolina (6th round pick) - kept last year

14. Mundi Morning Blues (Spiritus Mundi)
QB T. Brady (6th round pick)
WR S. Moss (8th round pick)
WR Ro. Smith (7th round pick)
RB R. Johnson (1st rounder)
RB M. Anderson (3rd rounder, trade from Rhinosaurs)
TE T. Gonzalez (3rd rounder)
W/R W. Dunn (5th round pick) - kept last year
BN T. Glenn (16th round pick)
BN D. Davis (2nd rounder)
BN A. Johnson (free agent)
BN C. Taylor (9th round pick) - kept last year
BN R. Caldwell (13th round pick)
BN T. Bouman (free agent)
BN D. Flutie (free agent)
K A. Vinatieri (11th round pick) - kept last year
DEF Cincinnati (15th round pick)

Wow, that took longer than I thought it would. (I've been doing this nonstop since the previous post.) My eyes are just about shot at this point, but I think this is mostly correct. Corrections and clarifications are welcome.
  #205  
Old 02-24-2006, 04:31 AM
Ellis Dee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellis Dee
Draft Order, Year 4
1. BoomGoesTheDynamite
2. New York Fanboys
3. Rhinosaurs(neuroman)
4. Clusterfucks
5. Pentium None
6. Fightin' Quakers
7. Baltimore Wierdos
8. Moridwon
9. Feed My Family
10. Crabby Hermits
11. Varlos' Zzzzzzz
12. Fourth and Nineteen
13. Cedric Benson Busts
14. Mundi Morning Blues
Dammit, this is actually a departure from how we did it last year, and I didn't notice until just now. Doh!

If you check the draft order on the yahoo page, you'll note that I drafted 10th overall, and we all know I was dead last the year before. So if we wanted to be consistent, Pentium would be drafting 10th, not 5th.

However, I thought it was a bit of a raw deal that dead last drafted 10th, (though it didn't matter for me personally,) so I think this way is actually much preferred.
  #206  
Old 02-24-2006, 05:14 AM
Omniscient is offline
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I'm not sure what happened there. Looking at the previous draft order you're right, but I remember us agreeing that it'd be this way.

It was 1-4 draft slots were the 4 consolation bracket teams based on order of finish, 5-10 were the bottom 6 finishers in reverse order, and 11-14 were the top four finishers in reverse order.

Though it appears that we ended up with the 5-10 slots being the bottom 6 in order of finish instead. Was that a fuck-up or did we change our mind?
  #207  
Old 02-24-2006, 05:57 AM
Ellis Dee is offline
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Looking at the conversations on the yahoo page, it appears that we were planning on doing it the same way as last year. I also found a few other tidbits of interest.

Regarding the draft order:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crabby Hermits in yahoo comment #375
Accodring to the rules we looked over when we started this, the draft order should work out like this:

1. (Consolation bowl winner)
2. (Conslation bowl loser)
3. (lower seeded team in consolation bracket)
4. (higher seeded team in consolation bracket)
5. Crabby Hermits
6. Feed My Family
7. Moridwon
8. Baltimore Weirdos
9. Fightin' Quakers
10. Pentium None
11. (lower seeded team in championship bracket)
12. (higher seeded team in championship bracket)
13. (Championship game loser)
14. (League Champion)
There was clarification that the seeding wasn't needed because we could just use the final results. But Pentium is listed as 10th. As I said, I'm not a fan of this, and would prefer the order I listed above, which I copied from early in page 4 of this thread. Speaking of which, that inconsistency was noted:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crabby Hermits in yahoo comment #409
The posted draft order is wrong according to the formula I was using, but who cares?
Apparently nobody, as no objections were raised.

Regarding how to handle trades of draft picks, and the potential nightmare of people making errors similar to forgetting another guy's keeper, Mundi had a great idea:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiritus Mundi in yahoo comment #392
As for trades, I propose a simple solution: trading draft picks is allowed, but only when both parties are present at the live draft in order to execute the deal. Then it is simply a matte of each player honoring their deal, selecting players per the partner's desire, and trading post-draft. This also niceley places the onus of bookkeeping on the owners making the trade.
Regarding my question of whether you could trade first round selections, as they are on the Can't Cut list:
Quote:
Originally Posted by BoomGoesTheDynamite in yahoo comment #394
Not an issue. It just means you can't dump your roster of good players - it's typically to prevent poor-sport losers from throwing a hissy fit and ruining a league. The commish can turn that option off (which I recommend - it's not necessary in this league). You can certainly trade players on the list.

Yahoo does a good job of updating the list (it's usually the top 50 players) for injuries. I was able to drop Priest a day after he hit the IR. But there is a delay, and it could become a factor in a league this size, so I vote we opt out of it next year.
  #208  
Old 02-25-2006, 01:51 PM
Weirddave is offline
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Well, I made a trade with BoomGoesThe Dynamite. I traded Larry Johnson for his first round pick this coming year and for his second round pick the year following. What are the logistics for handling that?
  #209  
Old 02-26-2006, 10:38 AM
Ellis Dee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weirddave
Well, I made a trade with BoomGoesThe Dynamite. I traded Larry Johnson for his first round pick this coming year and for his second round pick the year following. What are the logistics for handling that?
Basically, it would appear that the only requirements are that you both be involved in the live draft, but even that won't be necessary because it is the first overall pick.

Normally, the best way to handle it would be when Boom's first rounder is on the clock, you call out who you want him to pick, and he drafts that guy onto his team for you. You then wait to draft LJ in the 7th as is his normal keeper position. After the draft, either the commish can then swap those two players, or you two can just do a straight-up trade.

But because you're acquiring the first overall pick, and you don't have to worry that your guy will be taken ahead of you, there is a much better way to handle it. Simply let us know (whenever, as long as it's before the draft starts) who you want with his pick. (I'm guessing Tomlinson.) Then we can all add him to our exclude lists like a regular keeper. Boom will then pick up Johnson with the #1 overall, and you'll pick Tomlinson (or whomever) with your 7th rounder. That way no post-draft trades would be necessary.

Regarding the "max three keepers" rule, I'm going back and forth on this one. You are trading away what I'll refer to as the "keeper rights" to a player, meaning you can't make the trade unless you "spend" one of your max three keepers on him. Then again, he is acquiring the "keeper rights" to a player, which could mean he's using up one of his max three keepers as well.

I don't care, and won't object to whatever, but my two cents would be that this trade -- because it involves a keeper -- would cost both of you one of your max three keeper spots, meaning that you can only (in effect) keep two guys, and Boom can only keep two guys other than Johnson.

Oh, and, uh, I personally find this trade notably lopsided in favor of one of you. I'm not going to say which just yet, as I don't want to be the guy who screwed this up for one of you, but it really does seem to be an unfair trade to me. Do we want to have a policy on that, similar to yahoo's objection feature?
  #210  
Old 02-26-2006, 10:46 AM
Weirddave is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellis Dee

But because you're acquiring the first overall pick, and you don't have to worry that your guy will be taken ahead of you, there is a much better way to handle it. Simply let us know (whenever, as long as it's before the draft starts) who you want with his pick. (I'm guessing Tomlinson.) Then we can all add him to our exclude lists like a regular keeper. Boom will then pick up Johnson with the #1 overall, and you'll pick Tomlinson (or whomever) with your 7th rounder. That way no post-draft trades would be necessary.
No, that won't work because then I'd only get my pick at #7 in the first round, not the 2 1st round picks this trade gives me.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellis Dee
Oh, and, uh, I personally find this trade notably lopsided in favor of one of you. I'm not going to say which just yet, as I don't want to be the guy who screwed this up for one of you, but it really does seem to be an unfair trade to me. Do we want to have a policy on that, similar to yahoo's objection feature?
He proposed it to me. I accepted. I was quite happy to keep LJ as a 7th round pick, and really the effect is the same. No question that LJ is a 1st round pick this year, the only difference is that now I get to pick "him" (or his value) at #1 overall.
  #211  
Old 02-26-2006, 10:50 AM
Weirddave is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weirddave
No, that won't work because then I'd only get my pick at #7 in the first round, not the 2 1st round picks this trade gives me.


ooops. I misread. Sorry. This would work. My confusion is that I also have the 7th pick in the draft. I read "7th pick" instead of "7th rounder". My mistake.
  #212  
Old 02-26-2006, 03:29 PM
Omniscient is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weirddave
Well, I made a trade with BoomGoesThe Dynamite. I traded Larry Johnson for his first round pick this coming year and for his second round pick the year following. What are the logistics for handling that?
Why do I not remember this? Seems like trading for "future" considerations would have been something that needed to be discussed amongst everyone.
  #213  
Old 02-26-2006, 07:24 PM
Weirddave is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omniscient
Why do I not remember this? Seems like trading for "future" considerations would have been something that needed to be discussed amongst everyone.
Why? The league is modeled on the NFL, and such trades are common there. Once we decided that we could trade players for picks, I don't see what the big deal is.
  #214  
Old 02-26-2006, 07:46 PM
Omniscient is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weirddave
Once we decided that we could trade players for picks, I don't see what the big deal is.
There you have it. I don't recall there being a conversation stating we could trade picks of players.


Not saying it didn't happen, but I don't recall seeing it. Little help?
  #215  
Old 02-26-2006, 09:51 PM
Least Original User Name Ever is offline
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you guys got any openings?
  #216  
Old 02-26-2006, 11:40 PM
MysteryFellow63427 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omniscient
There you have it. I don't recall there being a conversation stating we could trade picks of players.


Not saying it didn't happen, but I don't recall seeing it. Little help?
There was some conversation regarding draft day trades, but I don't think trading picks in future seasons was ever discussed in earnest (or possibly at all?)

I'm not opposed in theory to the idea of trading future picks, but operationally it seems like a hassle. It requires bookkeeping, as we'll have to maintain records of those trades. The beauty of coach-to-coach trades on draft day is that in theory the commish doesn't have to mess with them.

Plus, there is always the chance someone drops out of the league. If an owner has mortgaged his future by trading away next year's picks and then quits the league, we are left with the unpleasant choice of
1) saddling a new owner with a disadvantaged team, or
2) screwing over the existing owner who was expecting those picks.

Least Original, check back as summer rolls around to see if we have anyone not returning whose reins you could take. But even if there aren't any openings in this league, there should be several SDMB fantasy football leagues floating around.
  #217  
Old 03-01-2006, 12:47 AM
Ellis Dee is offline
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He Hate Me FF Keeper League -- complete history

2003 Season 1
The SDMB "He Hate Me, He Hate Me Not" Football League

2004 Season 2
Upcoming SDMB fantasy football league...
He Hate Me Keeper League Mid-Season Review
SDMB H.H.M. Keeper League Rules Ballot.

2005 Season 3
Yahoo fantasy football signup now open...
He Hate Me Keeper League Mid-Season Draft Review 2006
  #218  
Old 03-01-2006, 12:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neuroman
There was some conversation regarding draft day trades, but I don't think trading picks in future seasons was ever discussed in earnest (or possibly at all?)
I certainly recall the trading of draft picks on draft day. That I have no issue with. Active players for picks seems like another barrel of worms, I personally don't like it, seems like a recipe for a draft day disaster.
  #219  
Old 03-01-2006, 01:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Omniscient
I certainly recall the trading of draft picks on draft day. That I have no issue with. Active players for picks seems like another barrel of worms, I personally don't like it, seems like a recipe for a draft day disaster.
Wait, what? The only active players are keepers. You don't like the idea of trading keepers for picks?

A keeper pretty much is a draft pick; i.e: Dave's 7th rounder (keeper draft pick) for Munch's 1st rounder...

(Ignoring for the moment the future picks issue.)
  #220  
Old 03-01-2006, 01:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellis Dee
Wait, what? The only active players are keepers. You don't like the idea of trading keepers for picks?

A keeper pretty much is a draft pick; i.e: Dave's 7th rounder (keeper draft pick) for Munch's 1st rounder...

(Ignoring for the moment the future picks issue.)
I see your point, but somehow it feels like there's extra complexity there. Maybe I'm just being paranoid.
  #221  
Old 03-01-2006, 09:22 AM
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I honestly don't see a problem with trading future draft picks, but I would only do it for the upcoming year, and only because it's a pain in the ass to control.

In one of my money leagues, the only way you can trade for a future draft pick is if the person who is trading the draft pick pays, up front, next year's entrance fee. That way, the person isn't trading a draft pick and then leaving the league, screwing either the guy who inherits his team or the guy who traded for the draft picks. I'm not sure how we could do it for a non-money league.

Now I have to get back to finding next years' super sleeper that will help me kick all your asses next year. It may be a long search....
  #222  
Old 03-01-2006, 11:58 AM
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Now I have to get back to finding next years' super sleeper that will help me kick all your asses next year. It may be a long search....
I think Ladainian Tomlinson is poised for a pretty good year. You may or may not be able to pick him up in the middle of the 6th round or so, but you may want to use your 5th rounder in case others are privy to him.
  #223  
Old 03-01-2006, 01:21 PM
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I see your point, but somehow it feels like there's extra complexity there. Maybe I'm just being paranoid.
No, we pretty much all do hate you.
  #224  
Old 03-01-2006, 01:33 PM
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Which makes beating you all the sweeter. Now excuse me while I channel the chip on my shoulder into devising the perfect draft startegy, honing my squad into the unbeatable dynasty.
  #225  
Old 03-01-2006, 02:26 PM
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I see that we have a choice- if we declare our keepers now, then we're obligated to deal only with those three. On the other hand, while we still have all the players on the roster, we can trade a specific pick before declaring the keepers. If the pick is required to be one of the keepers, that works out- but what if the first player has three picks already in mind, and someone wants them to trade a particular player that's not one of the three?

I still intend to play, but I'd like to pass the commissioner's job to someone who is more into it. I can't see refereeing some of the squabbles that are bound to come up, and I passed up chances to do things just because someone might accuse me of using the commissioner's power to gain an advantage. Whether or not it actually happened is another story; I'm just avoiding unnecessary conflict.

If we are trading picks, particularly keepers, who will offer me something for Randle El?
  #226  
Old 03-01-2006, 02:58 PM
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You bring up a good point. Since we have been declaring keepers at the end of the off-season, and not the start, trading a keeper becomes a bit more dicey. Ending up with a Ricky Williams situation could get ugly. Maybe it's time to nominate a new standing commish so we can define these things.
  #227  
Old 03-01-2006, 07:44 PM
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VarlosZ did an excellent job as commish for a different league that some of us participated in last year, complete with a nice waivers system. So I'd nominate him.

If he's not into it, and nobody else wants to, I'd be willing to give it a shot. One advantage is that at least I'll have the fewest potential player conflicts with the rest of you, and thus most rulings would likely have no implications for me or my team. (Just to point out, the only conflict that came up last season for me, Cedrick Houston, was one where I always knew that BabaBooey got him fair and square; my only recourse was an attempt at a public shaming. heh.) Of note is that I'm not exactly eager to be commish, so I'd be willing to do it this coming year and then step down. (The original "rotating commish" idea is starting to come into focus.)

Also, I'd agree that it probably makes sense to hold off on trades until we get closer to next year, but I personally have no problem with people doing trades now. (Though I'd add a clause saying that early trades be null & void should the player hit the equivalent of IR before the live draft, ala Kellen Winslow Jr or Ricky Williams.)

Regarding trading keeper picks, does anybody else have an opinion on how that impacts the max three keepers rule? Recapping my thoughts:
Quote:
Regarding the "max three keepers" rule, I'm going back and forth on this one. You are trading away what I'll refer to as the "keeper rights" to a player, meaning you can't make the trade unless you "spend" one of your max three keepers on him. Then again, he is acquiring the "keeper rights" to a player, which could mean he's using up one of his max three keepers as well.

I don't care, and won't object to whatever, but my two cents would be that this trade -- because it involves a keeper -- would cost both of you one of your max three keeper spots, meaning that you can only (in effect) keep two guys, and Boom can only keep two guys other than Johnson.
So if we put it to a vote, trading a keeper should...

a) ...cost only the guy trading him away one of his keeper spots.
b) ...cost only the guy acquiring him one of his keeper spots.
c) ...cost both owners one keeper spot each.

I half-heartedly vote "c", but could easily be swayed to either of the other two options. If forced to choose between the first two, I'd lean toward "b", which would have the nice effect of everybody still ending up with a potential 3 keepers. (The first option would result in one owner potentially keeping 4 while the other could only keep 2.)

Actually, I just convincend myself. "b" makes the most sense; for the trade currently on the table, it translates into Munch sending one of his keeper slots over to Dave to use on LJ.

Finally, I'm not a fan of trading future picks for several reasons, but this post is already too long to enumerate them.
  #228  
Old 03-01-2006, 08:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellis Dee
trading a keeper should...

a) ...cost only the guy trading him away one of his keeper spots.
b) ...cost only the guy acquiring him one of his keeper spots.
c) ...cost both owners one keeper spot each.
I think the rights to "keep" a player should stay vested with the team that player is on at the end of a season, so I like option A. If we use option B (only the acquiring player uses a spot), then we have essentially allowed Team 1 to keep four players (and trade one of them away for another pick.)

I believe the goal of the 3-max keepers rule is to ensure that one team doesn't overly dominate the league. Option A seems to be in the spirit of this goal. For example, if one team had an unbelievable draft and had 5 excellent keepers for the next year, option B (only the acquiring player pays keeper costs) would allow this player to trade 2 of his keepers for high round draft picks, and then use his 3 keeper slots on his remaining 3 good keepers. I'm not saying we shouldn't reward drafting prowess, but the goal of the 3 keeper rule is to keep things reasonably competetive from year to year. Option B would frustrate this goal.


One might argue that the team on the acquring end of the keeper trade is then getting 4 keepers, but I don't see that as a real problem. Any draft pick traded for a keeper is necessarily going to be higher than the keeper's spot in the draft, so the acquiring team presumably gains no special advantage by making the deal.

I can see even more problematic wrinkles from trading future draft picks, so I think I'm going to adopt a firmer stand and join Ellis Dee in the camp of "no trading future picks."
  #229  
Old 03-01-2006, 08:15 PM
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*firmer stance
  #230  
Old 03-01-2006, 10:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neuroman
I think the rights to "keep" a player should stay vested with the team that player is on at the end of a season, so I like option A. If we use option B (only the acquiring player uses a spot), then we have essentially allowed Team 1 to keep four players (and trade one of them away for another pick.)

I believe the goal of the 3-max keepers rule is to ensure that one team doesn't overly dominate the league. Option A seems to be in the spirit of this goal. For example, if one team had an unbelievable draft and had 5 excellent keepers for the next year, option B (only the acquiring player pays keeper costs) would allow this player to trade 2 of his keepers for high round draft picks, and then use his 3 keeper slots on his remaining 3 good keepers. I'm not saying we shouldn't reward drafting prowess, but the goal of the 3 keeper rule is to keep things reasonably competetive from year to year. Option B would frustrate this goal.
I agree totally.

Quote:
One might argue that the team on the acquring end of the keeper trade is then getting 4 keepers, but I don't see that as a real problem. Any draft pick traded for a keeper is necessarily going to be higher than the keeper's spot in the draft, so the acquiring team presumably gains no special advantage by making the deal.
I'm in the camp that says the acquiring team is getting an extra keeper. To me it doesn't matter that they are giving up a high draft pick. The uncertainty in draft picks makes the inherently less valuable than a keeper.

For that reason I'd vote for option C.

Quote:
I can see even more problematic wrinkles from trading future draft picks, so I think I'm going to adopt a firmer stand and join Ellis Dee in the camp of "no trading future picks."
Me too, but I'd extend this a little further. Essentially instituting a trading deadline for off season trades. I feel we should not be allowed to trade upcoming draft picks during the season for obvious reasons. Additionally, I think keeper/draft pick trades should only be made after keeper declarations have been made official. No future draft picks can be traded. The keeper declaration deadline should be set sometime between the NFL Draft and our Fantasy Draft, maybe even set at the start of Trainging Camp so we get a idea of what rosters everyone's likely to be on.

This would lessen the chances of a keeper player getting hurt or suspended in the offseason, throwing a trade into smithereens. It makes the risk for everyone equal.
  #231  
Old 03-01-2006, 11:45 PM
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Compelling argument, neuroman.

While I kinda like the option "c" of it costing both owners a keeper, it just occured to me that logistically speaking, neuroman's vote for option a is the only viable one.

Otherwise, the keeper "penalties" can be easily sidestepped by just making a deal in private and then not making the trade until after the draft. Not to beat on Munch & Dave, but just as an easy to follow example:

Assuming option c, they could decide to abandon the #1 for LJ trade altogether and draft normally, having their 3 keepers each. Now, the day after the live draft, Munch can simply trade LT (who would now be a real player instead of a draft pick) for LJ (who is still a keeper but no longer attached to a draft pick) and end up with the same result as option a would have given them.

So I strongly favor option a, where it mimics exactly what would happen if they just waited until after the draft. This way there is no incentive for behind the scenes collusion, which would help keep the league as light and friendly as I trust we all want.

Also, good points on trading during the season for next year's picks, Omni. I completely agree.

As for when the keeper declaration deadline should be, I suggest the day after the final week 3 preseason game is played. (Assuming we can find a draft time later than that but still before opening day.) Week 3 in preseason is really the last time injuries, trades or roster changes take place before the season starts.
  #232  
Old 03-15-2006, 09:52 AM
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My votes:
  1. Draft picks may only be traded on draft day with both players present.
  2. Keeper picks are treated just like any other draft pick for (1)
  3. Keeper picks must be declared one week prior to the live draft
  4. Therefore, a keeper pick that gets traded away counted as a keeper only for the original team.
  5. As a consequence of (1), future draft picks may never be traded.

Oh, and I think if Ellis is willing to take on the role of commish he has already demonstrated the OCD tendencies that the job requires. He gets my vote.
  #233  
Old 03-15-2006, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiritus Mundi
As a consequence of (1), future draft picks may never be traded.
The nuance -- that I never realized until I corresponded with Munch -- is that trading a keeper is trading future draft picks. (Assuming they aren't in their last year of eligibility, as LJ is and which Munch was unaware of.)

Consider The Mad Hermit and Willie Parker. He's probably late first round value for the next two seasons, and he can be kept in the 8th and 6th rounds respectively. Let's ignore for the moment that he's a homer pick. What possible incentive would Hermit have for trading him away if we can't offer him a compensatory pick in the second year to offset the fact that he's losing late first round value from a 6th round pick?
  #234  
Old 03-15-2006, 05:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellis Dee
Consider The Mad Hermit and Willie Parker. He's probably late first round value for the next two seasons, and he can be kept in the 8th and 6th rounds respectively. Let's ignore for the moment that he's a homer pick. What possible incentive would Hermit have for trading him away if we can't offer him a compensatory pick in the second year to offset the fact that he's losing late first round value from a 6th round pick?
I realize that as a problem, but it's one I'm willing to stomach compared to the problems created by future draft pick trading. Personally I like th thought of keepers actually being keepers....meaning they belong to the player who drafted them. I'm in the minority I assume so I'm open to deciding a system to trade them, but we need to accept that were aren't recreating the NFL here and everything isn't necessarily a comodity. Keeping things manageable is important here, especially since this is entirely done via email and message boards.
  #235  
Old 03-15-2006, 06:16 PM
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I will come down on the side of not trading draft picks. The situation that I'm in is a valid argument- how could I get a fair value for a player if he's a relatively cheap draft pick for the round he's taken?

Multi-year trades present a whole new problem- if the player's performance falls off, and he is devalues, the owner who accepted the trade is stuck with an undesirable man, potentially ruining his team.

I say that we keep each year as a self-contained entity, and if trading of top picks is desired, then do it after the draft. We have no website that keeps the rosters in a format independent of our Yahoo host, and it will take a lot of work to add to whay can already be done. If you want a custom league with all the trimmings, there are pay leagues out there that make it all worth the time you spend. This one is more of a "casual" league, and why complicate it more than it already is?

One other little thing: Everyone came back from the previous year, and I hope everyone comes back again- but if someone drops out, we need to know in time before the draft so that we can allow some other Doper to join us- there are plenty out there.
  #236  
Old 03-16-2006, 12:06 AM
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Probably the best balance is to stick with Mundi's five point plan. It's the easiest way to allow the fun of trading picks without adding any real complication to the league.

The point I brought up regarding keeper trades: Both sides in such a trade should just factor in the reality that they cannot offer "future incentive" to offset the loss of the keeper in future years, and adjust the trade offer accordingly.
  #237  
Old 03-16-2006, 05:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellis Dee
Consider The Mad Hermit and Willie Parker. He's probably late first round value for the next two seasons, and he can be kept in the 8th and 6th rounds respectively. Let's ignore for the moment that he's a homer pick. What possible incentive would Hermit have for trading him away if we can't offer him a compensatory pick in the second year to offset the fact that he's losing late first round value from a 6th round pick?
Well, couldn't The Mad Hermit agree to trade Willie Parker and his 15th pick for someone else's #1 and #2 pick? I don't think you need multi year deals to achieve "fair" compensation for a stud keeper in a trade.
  #238  
Old 03-17-2006, 07:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neuroman
Well, couldn't The Mad Hermit agree to trade Willie Parker and his 15th pick for someone else's #1 and #2 pick? I don't think you need multi year deals to achieve "fair" compensation for a stud keeper in a trade.
Exactly.
  #239  
Old 03-17-2006, 10:11 AM
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WRT the LJ trade, neither Munch nor I realized that he only had this coming year of keeper status left. Trading next year's 2nd round pick was to compensate me for giving up LJ in that year too (cuz I likely would have kept him again). Since he only has 1 year of keeper eligibility left, this is obviously a moot point, and I have indicated to Munch that I am willing to modify the trade (although I haven't heard back from him yet).

That being said, I don't really see a problem with trading future draft picks for multi year keepers. All the arguments against it make little sense to me. It IS how the real NFL works, and we're modeled on that. This is a fun league, not a money league, so big deal anyway. We're been going 3 years now with the same teams, saying "Oh, someone might quit" is certainly true, but it shouldn't be hard to find a replacement if they do. "Someone might quit" is in fact a better argument against keepers entirely. As for the keeper trade question, definitely "B". Use my situation as an example. If trading LJ can't get me extra picks and is going to cost me a keeper spot, [i]why on earth would I have any incentive at all to make a trade?[i]. I can't think of one, can someone give me one? Trades are exciting because they have that element of risk on each side, and the calculations each owner makes as to the benefits to him or her. Each owner is going to calculate this risk differently. That's what makes it exciting. Arguing that "we have to make sure every trade is absolutely "fair"" defeats the purpose of trades entirely. If I want to trade LJ for Matt Schobel, well then, that's my business, isn't it? Nobody makes a trade unless they think they are going to benefit more than the other guy from it. Someone is usually wrong in their calculations. That's the whole fun of it.
  #240  
Old 03-23-2006, 01:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weirddave
If trading LJ can't get me extra picks and is going to cost me a keeper spot, [i]why on earth would I have any incentive at all to make a trade?[i]. I can't think of one, can someone give me one?
See my above post. You could trade LJ and your #15 for a #1 and #2 pick (or whatever.) Your incentive to trade is having four picks in the first two rounds.
  #241  
Old 03-23-2006, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neuroman
See my above post. You could trade LJ and your #15 for a #1 and #2 pick (or whatever.) Your incentive to trade is having four picks in the first two rounds.
I would think trading LJ for the #1 overall straight up would be incentive enough.

If it weren't, then your original trade makes no sense. The second year out involved trading LJ for a second rounder. The only way that evens out is if the #1 overall this year is more valuable than LJ.
  #242  
Old 03-23-2006, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellis Dee
I would think trading LJ for the #1 overall straight up would be incentive enough.

If it weren't, then your original trade makes no sense. The second year out involved trading LJ for a second rounder. The only way that evens out is if the #1 overall this year is more valuable than LJ.
Then again, as was just pointed out to me, the incentive of trading LJ to include a 2nd rounder next year (rather than a 1st rounder) takes into account the possibility of injury. WD would have shored up a free pick, regardless of LJ hurting himself.

Dave, Munch has tried to e-mail you a couple times, but it seems like you're not getting them. Spam filter, perhaps?
  #243  
Old 04-26-2006, 03:30 AM
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1. Does Ricky Williams have to submit to random drug tests while he's suspended for all of next season? Because if not, I see some good times in his future.

2. Is anyone planning on not resubscribing to this board? Just curious. Because I was thinking about it.
  #244  
Old 04-26-2006, 05:54 AM
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According to ESPN as of last night, Ricky has to submit to random testing if he ever wants to return.

His coach is disputing the test that he failed, but the appeal was denied. Some think Ricky is getting a raw deal.

I'm still considering whether to re-up myself, but I would stay just for the league. Are we still into it?
  #245  
Old 04-26-2006, 06:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Mad Hermit
I'm still considering whether to re-up myself, but I would stay just for the league. Are we still into it?
I am, as may be obvious.

I actually re-upped primarily for this keeper league, despite the fact that I've been posting a lot lately.

Mostly I've lost interest in the boards in general, but find that the most interesting sports discussions are to be found here. Team boards blow chunks, and there really aren't many interactive sports-themed boards worth reading. So it's a downer that some of our precious few sports fans are leaving, IMO.

If we do lose a bunch of the managers, but want to still keep the league going, I'd recommend the FFL forum at giants.com, as it's free and uses the same VB tags as here. But really, any free board would do. (Preferably one that doesn't mask profanity, unlike the giants boards.)

As the yahoo group has been lost, if anyone is leaving who doesn't have a publicly-viewable email in their profile here, please send me an email if you're still into it.
  #246  
Old 04-26-2006, 06:57 PM
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If you need a new person in the league, I'm in.

Looks like I'm the one that's going to carry on the sports tradition of the Dope, me being youngest (possibly) and all.

I woulda done baseball, but my computer died and my replacement doesn't run java (I've got NO clue why).

I'll have access to a computer that DOES run Java, though, so I'm in if need be.
  #247  
Old 04-26-2006, 08:20 PM
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I have not been active on the boards for some time, but I still subscribe because I long ago promised to support the Reader for the many hours of pleasure I received during the days of the free intellectual exchange. Has the tenor/quality of the boards changed recently that some of you are considering dropping your subscriptions?
  #248  
Old 04-26-2006, 09:29 PM
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I waited for months after the pay to post went into affect so I won't have to reup until I think November.

I love you Ricky! Thanks for the great value you've given me over the past 2 years!!
  #249  
Old 04-26-2006, 10:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiritus Mundi
I have not been active on the boards for some time, but I still subscribe because I long ago promised to support the Reader for the many hours of pleasure I received during the days of the free intellectual exchange. Has the tenor/quality of the boards changed recently that some of you are considering dropping your subscriptions?
Not by much. The problem is that the subscriptions reduced the new membership to a trickle. In most threads I open, the vast majority of posts are from Charter Members, and about half the non-Charter members have join dates from before pay-to-post was instituted.

Thus, there is virtually no new discussion on the boards with the exception of entertainment and current events, but even the latter often reduce to the same posters getting into the same old arguments that may only be tangentally related to the current event in question.

Basically, the ever-dwindling membership is showing signs of becoming too incestuous to bother paying for. That's my take, at least, and I suspect this is part of the reason furt and Neurotik are likely to let their accounts expire.

What's the one thing you can't find on the SDMB nowadays? A fresh point of view.
  #250  
Old 04-26-2006, 10:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BabaBooey
I love you Ricky! Thanks for the great value you've given me over the past 2 years!!
hehheh, might this have something to do with the OP of this thread?

Worst. Pick. Ever.
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