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  #101  
Old 03-15-2019, 12:23 AM
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It's been another long day. My son is safe, the school is in full crisis management mode, and so it goes.

New information. Some entries on the list are groups of people. "All the N----rs." "The Trannies".

As my son wryly noted "The List is very diverse and inclusive in its hatefulness."




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  #102  
Old 03-15-2019, 02:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Mona Lisa Simpson View Post
It's been another long day. My son is safe, the school is in full crisis management mode, and so it goes.

New information. Some entries on the list are groups of people. "All the N----rs." "The Trannies".

To be fair, naggers are annoying.


It is amazing how the school and the media managed to take something that would have traditionally been a minor bit of gossip for a couple of days and blew it up into a crisis. (Did Momo make the list?)
  #103  
Old 03-15-2019, 09:07 AM
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Their mistake was in thinking something "private" was not. They're not blameless in this situation, and there should be consequences. Not life-altering consequences like not being able to attend college, but something.
So they should be punished for thinking something "private" was not?
  #104  
Old 03-15-2019, 09:25 AM
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It's been another long day. My son is safe, the school is in full crisis management mode, and so it goes.
Is it legal to think both that bullying is bad and that you are totally overreacting?
  #105  
Old 03-15-2019, 10:45 AM
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Is it legal to think both that bullying is bad and that you are totally overreacting?
I actually agree with you. I was overreacting, but I have witnessed some horrific things in my life so I am aware of worst case scenarios. Just because something is improbable does not make it impossible. Think positive but be aware. It's all I can do.


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  #106  
Old 03-15-2019, 01:29 PM
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So they should be punished for thinking something "private" was not?
If one person picks on another student, that's a bully.

If two people discuss their bullying of other students, that's conspiracy.

It is not what they thought that they are being held to account for, it is what they discussed. Sure, if no one had known about their conspiracy, if they were correct that their coordinates of abuse would go unnoticed and stay private, then they would not be punished for conspiring against their fellow students, even though they would be guilty of having done so.

When a third party stumbles on your conspiracy and blows the whistle on it, it's not their fault.
  #107  
Old 03-15-2019, 01:38 PM
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Try not to pull any muscles trying to stretch a shared list of "people we don't like" into a conspiracy to plan bullying.
  #108  
Old 03-15-2019, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
If one person picks on another student, that's a bully.

If two people discuss their bullying of other students, that's conspiracy.

It is not what they thought that they are being held to account for, it is what they discussed. Sure, if no one had known about their conspiracy, if they were correct that their coordinates of abuse would go unnoticed and stay private, then they would not be punished for conspiring against their fellow students, even though they would be guilty of having done so.

When a third party stumbles on your conspiracy and blows the whistle on it, it's not their fault.
Sorry, but I'm having trouble seeing the "conspiracy" here. I see two kids making a list of kids that they don't like at their school. What's the conspiracy?

If I made a list of posters here that I didn't like and talked about my list with another person, are we part of a "conspiracy"?
  #109  
Old 03-15-2019, 02:22 PM
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Sorry, but I'm having trouble seeing the "conspiracy" here. I see two kids making a list of kids that they don't like at their school. What's the conspiracy?

If I made a list of posters here that I didn't like and talked about my list with another person, are we part of a "conspiracy"?

Are you listing people because of visible minority status, religion, or affiliation (real or imagined) with the LGBTQ community? Because if so, it is treading close to hate speech. I know this wasn't published, or shared by the list creators, and it maybe wasn't ever meant as an agenda or conspiracy. But seriously creating a list of 100+ people and describing them in homophobic and bigoted and racist language is not a harmless act.


Also, it is the week before Spring break, and my son says that several of his teachers have spent the classes discussing the issue. Although it usually isn't a big week school-wise, these last two weeks have been hijacked by this topic.


Also, for context, school plays/ musicals (with budgets of over $20,000) has been cancelled by infractions by student actors, (smoking marijuana in the drama studio). Other acts by students have caused cancellations so my earlier comments about cancelling grad activities may have been extreme but not outside the realms of possibility.
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  #110  
Old 03-15-2019, 02:30 PM
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Try not to pull any muscles trying to stretch a shared list of "people we don't like" into a conspiracy to plan bullying.
No problem, not much of a stretch needed. That bullying is not considered a crime is the only fig leaf to protect them, but if they had made a list of houses that were easy to rob, or stores that were easy to shoplift from, would that have concerned you as little?

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Sorry, but I'm having trouble seeing the "conspiracy" here. I see two kids making a list of kids that they don't like at their school. What's the conspiracy?
If either or both of them also engaged in bullying of those kids they didn't like, while coordinating that bullying, then that sounds pretty much like a conspiracy to me.
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If I made a list of posters here that I didn't like and talked about my list with another person, are we part of a "conspiracy"?
If there could be any reason to think that any harmful action could come from either of you from that discussion about which posters you have a mutual dislike for, yes.

Last edited by k9bfriender; 03-15-2019 at 02:32 PM.
  #111  
Old 03-15-2019, 02:48 PM
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If either or both of them also engaged in bullying of those kids they didn't like, while coordinating that bullying, then that sounds pretty much like a conspiracy to me.
Sure, but did either or both of them engage in bullying of those kids they didn't like?
  #112  
Old 03-15-2019, 02:54 PM
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Sure, but did either or both of them engage in bullying of those kids they didn't like?
We do not have the answer to that. I would say most likely, but I have nothing but the basic speculation that someone that would go to the trouble of making a list of people they don't like would express in actions that as well.

If, instead, they had had a list of addresses of houses that were easy to break into, would you say that they would have to actually break into any of the houses?
  #113  
Old 03-15-2019, 03:04 PM
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We do not have the answer to that. I would say most likely, but I have nothing but the basic speculation that someone that would go to the trouble of making a list of people they don't like would express in actions that as well
I see. So you don't know if they have done anything other than make a list, is that it?

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If, instead, they had had a list of addresses of houses that were easy to break into, would you say that they would have to actually break into any of the houses?
Not sure. Is making a list of houses that are easy to break into a crime?

I work in cybersecurity. What if I made a list of vulnerable web servers and shared it with my cybersecurity colleagues?
  #114  
Old 03-15-2019, 03:09 PM
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I see. So you don't know if they have done anything other than make a list, is that it?
that's what I said, yes. Do you know that they never initiated a negative interaction with anyone on their list?
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Not sure. Is making a list of houses that are easy to break into a crime?
Depends on intent, to some extent, but it certainly can be.
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I work in cybersecurity. What if I made a list of vulnerable web servers and shared it with my cybersecurity colleagues?
If you shared it with your cybersecurity colleagues in order to develop better defenses, that's fine. If you share it with your neighbor, would that be any different?
  #115  
Old 03-15-2019, 03:10 PM
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If, instead, they had had a list of addresses of houses that were easy to break into, would you say that they would have to actually break into any of the houses?
Absolutely. Positivly. Anything else would be supporting thoughtcrime.
  #116  
Old 03-15-2019, 03:12 PM
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that's what I said, yes. Do you know that they never initiated a negative interaction with anyone on their list?
Not sure if I could prove a negative, even if I felt so inclined to waste time doing so.

If they physically harmed any of the people on their list, then yeah, I'm all for punishment. Just making a list? And for that list-making they deserve dire consequences? Nah, I'm just not seeing it.
  #117  
Old 03-15-2019, 03:18 PM
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Absolutely. Positivly. Anything else would be supporting thoughtcrime.
So, you are saying that no action can be taken until they have actually broken in?

They can have a list of houses, a timetable for when the owners are home, a list of valuables in the houses, methods of entry and security codes, and your only concern would be that someone may "support[] thoughtcrime" by discouraging such a list?

I don't know if you know what thoughtcrime actually means.

Just so I get a measure here, is this thoughtcrime?
  #118  
Old 03-15-2019, 03:19 PM
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Not sure if I could prove a negative, even if I felt so inclined to waste time doing so.

If they physically harmed any of the people on their list, then yeah, I'm all for punishment. Just making a list? And for that list-making they deserve dire consequences? Nah, I'm just not seeing it.
I said nothing about dire consequences for making the list.
  #119  
Old 03-15-2019, 03:31 PM
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I said nothing about dire consequences for making the list.
Fair enough. Do you, k9bfriender, think the kids that made the list should be punished in some way? If so, what should they be punished for?
  #120  
Old 03-15-2019, 03:38 PM
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Fair enough. Do you, k9bfriender, think the kids that made the list should be punished in some way? If so, what should they be punished for?
If they never engaged in any bullying, then they should have the punishment of a stern lecture about how foolish their actions were.

If they did engage in bullying, then whatever punishment there is for their actions should be increased fairly substantially.
  #121  
Old 03-15-2019, 03:40 PM
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If they never engaged in any bullying, then they should have the punishment of a stern lecture about how foolish their actions were.

If they did engage in bullying, then whatever punishment there is for their actions should be increased fairly substantially.
We seem to be in agreement then.
  #122  
Old 03-17-2019, 10:35 AM
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Hi. OP here. I've stepped away from posting in this thread for a few days but I have followed your duacussion.

I just wondered if anyone would like to read the Code of Conduct for all students in the Vancover School noard, then you can have a starting place to discuss the repercussions for students who a) created the list and b) distributed the list.

Code of Conduct:

http://go.vsb.bc.ca/schools/hamber/A...f-Conduct.aspx

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  #123  
Old 03-17-2019, 12:58 PM
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At best most of the code of conduct is feel-good waffle that's not enforceable.

We will...

Develop our cooperative learning skills
Be helpful to individuals needing help
Celebrate achievement
Demonstrate school spirit
Achieve to our highest potential
Encourage others
Actively attempt to problem solve in a positive peaceful manner
Grow as individuals in the world beyond school
Use appropriate means to solve problems and achieve goals
Respect our greater environment
Advocate for Hamber school pride
Support others to pursue high standards and academic excellence
Create a learning community where we strive for excellence in everything we do

These are all very nice guides to live by but are not enforceable. In addition to this there are 2 words on their code that are beyond their reach "off campus".

They can exercise some degree of thought control within the campus. But off campus it’s a different story. Unless the list makers codified harming someone then the private list they made is just that. If they’re advocating harm then the school has jurisdiction. They need to protect people on campus from harm.

If it were my child I’d want the local authorities (not the school) to ascertain if there was any intent to harm.
  #124  
Old 03-17-2019, 01:11 PM
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Some interesting stuff on that list. For example, the students are supposed to "accept diversity" and "respect diversity of all kinds", but also "speak a common language so as not to exclude anyone."
  #125  
Old 03-17-2019, 02:16 PM
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These are all very nice guides to live by but are not enforceable. In addition to this there are 2 words on their code that are beyond their reach "off campus".

They can exercise some degree of thought control within the campus. But off campus it’s a different story. Unless the list makers codified harming someone then the private list they made is just that. If they’re advocating harm then the school has jurisdiction. They need to protect people on campus from harm.
If such a scenario like this played out where a private list that chiefly ridiculed special ed students was outed, I expect a school would end up taking action on the side of protecting those who in general may run into problems standing up for themselves, if for no other reason than the possibility of litigation. I also brought up a scenario where mining data on fellow students could be taken to an excess that most would find stalker-ish. The judgment of whether to probe off campus activity done for private amusement not conveying harmful intent should be situational.
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