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  #51  
Old 04-14-2017, 03:55 PM
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Bigfoot is protected in Washington state.

Most states have laws protecting endangered species. Bigfoot seems pretty elusive and hard to find. Their population must be pretty small, assuming that they exist,

http://modernnotion.com/dont-shoot-b...-its-homicide/
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The law was amended in 1984 changing the crime from a felony to a gross misdemeanor punishable by a $1,000 fine and/or a one year jail sentence. The amendment also stated that if a coroner concludes Bigfoot to be a humanoid the killer would be charged with homicide.

Finally in 1991, Whatcom County, Washington, a neighboring community to Skamania County, declared the entire area, about a million acres of land, a Sasquatch Protection and Refuge Area, creating the first ever Bigfoot sanctuary.

Last edited by aceplace57; 04-14-2017 at 03:57 PM.
  #52  
Old 04-14-2017, 06:31 PM
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Bigfoot is protected in Washington state.
*moves*
  #53  
Old 04-14-2017, 07:35 PM
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I'm dying to know what the great book cover was, since Exapno's link is dead. The only book covers I can find on google are pretty pathetic: A blue background and a red circle: https://img.fantasticfiction.com/images/n28/n140647.jpg

Going with the French title isn't any better.
  #54  
Old 04-14-2017, 08:02 PM
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What if somebody DID shoot Bigfoot?
Tyhe Six Million Dollar Man would rise up, & avenge his buddy.
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  #55  
Old 04-14-2017, 09:02 PM
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Depends on what the authorities want. Probably confiscate the body and threaten you into silence.

Social media makes revealing them easier (if they exist), but any pics or footage could still be explained away as a hoax. Just because you can replicate something with CGI means it's fake dontcha know?

Nearly ALL Native American lore contain their own version of sasquatch. Will there be a backlash from tribal elders who view them as literal forest people?

There seems to be very real complications if their existence is widely known.

IMO one would have to hide the body and reveal it at a football game or a big social event with lots of news media to really expose it.
  #56  
Old 04-14-2017, 09:17 PM
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A question related to this is circling the net, and I am interested in the American legal view on this.

Suppose a surviving individual of a hominid sideline, so far unknown to science, is found and deliberately killed by a licensed hunter. Could he be charged with homicide? In other words, how is a "human" legally defined in terms of being a murder victim?
I think it is a crime to shoot a buffoon wearing a Bigfoot costume. That's about as far as this conversation should go.
  #57  
Old 04-14-2017, 09:20 PM
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What exactly do "the authorities" have to gain by keeping Bigfoot secret?

I mean, I get it. We don't have any evidence of Bigfoot, so if Bigfoot is common, someone must being doing a lot of work to keep the existence of Bigfoot a secret. And who is that someone? "The authorities".

But who exactly are these authorities? And how, if Bigfoot is a secret, do the lesser authorities know to keep Bigfoot a secret? Like, do local sheriffs and game wardens and wildlife biologists know all about Bigfoot, and know to keep it secret? But how exactly do the authorities enlist the assistance of all these hundreds of low level local dudes, and none of them ever go public, and we don't have any documents or secret memos from the Illuminati to the Washington State Department of Fish and Wildlife ordering them to cover up the existence of Bigfoot?

And if the low level guys aren't in on it, how exactly do the Men in Black swoop in every time someone finds evidence of Bigfoot? How does it work, logistically?

It makes no sense.
  #58  
Old 04-14-2017, 09:43 PM
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What exactly do "the authorities" have to gain by keeping Bigfoot secret?
What did they have to gain by keeping mermaids under wraps?

Last edited by kaylasdad99; 04-14-2017 at 09:43 PM.
  #59  
Old 04-14-2017, 10:06 PM
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Thanks for the chuckle.
  #60  
Old 04-14-2017, 10:12 PM
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Well, if I am someplace where I am authorized to be hunting deer, and some idiot decides to prance through the area in a reasonably convincing deer costume, I bet I would not end up charged with anything serious if anything at all. So I think the human in bigfoot costume would be a similar situation.
Perhaps all you had were doe tags and he was dessed as a buck? Would it be murder or poaching?
  #61  
Old 04-14-2017, 10:27 PM
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I'm dying to know what the great book cover was, since Exapno's link is dead. The only book covers I can find on google are pretty pathetic: A blue background and a red circle: https://img.fantasticfiction.com/images/n28/n140647.jpg

Going with the French title isn't any better.
I wanted to know the same thing. The cover of the version on Amazon is different... it looks like a sketch of a guy holding a monkey or something. Thankfully, Exapno Mapcase is still around and can help us out.
  #62  
Old 04-14-2017, 10:43 PM
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What exactly do "the authorities" have to gain by keeping Bigfoot secret?

I mean, I get it. We don't have any evidence of Bigfoot, so if Bigfoot is common, someone must being doing a lot of work to keep the existence of Bigfoot a secret. And who is that someone? "The authorities".

But who exactly are these authorities? And how, if Bigfoot is a secret, do the lesser authorities know to keep Bigfoot a secret? Like, do local sheriffs and game wardens and wildlife biologists know all about Bigfoot, and know to keep it secret? But how exactly do the authorities enlist the assistance of all these hundreds of low level local dudes, and none of them ever go public, and we don't have any documents or secret memos from the Illuminati to the Washington State Department of Fish and Wildlife ordering them to cover up the existence of Bigfoot?

And if the low level guys aren't in on it, how exactly do the Men in Black swoop in every time someone finds evidence of Bigfoot? How does it work, logistically?

It makes no sense.
You don't think a giant hairy monster (???) would upset outdoor recreation or logging business for example?

A bear rummaging through your cooler is one thing. But a wild, manlike being looking at you from behind a tree like a creep. I would probably crap myself (with the bear too).

If Native Americans recognize them as people, and people start insisting they be treated as such, will we have to give them rights? Property?

If they are real; and let's assume with nearly human intelligence, and seem to know that mixing with humans usually means getting shot, then their elusiveness is a good thing if you want to deny their existance.

They don't exist. No need to provide protection for giant wood hippies, no need to allocate land, funds or anything. Just confiscate whatever real evidence that rarely ever shows up, explain everything away as swamp gas and weather balloons, done.

Just because one doesn't believe in them shouldn't make a person lack all imagination to the "what ifs". Writers don't necessarily have to believe in ghosts or shape shifting clown-creatures either.
  #63  
Old 04-14-2017, 10:54 PM
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You don't think a giant hairy monster (???) would upset outdoor recreation or logging business for example?
So you think it's the local tourism boards that have these vast resources for the bigfoot denial conspiracy?

In truth, proof that bigfoot existed would be the biggest boon to tourism they could ever hope to get. Thousands of people would be flocking to the woods for a chance to see a bigfoot.

And you didn't answer Lemur866's question: how do these "authorities" keep the hundreds of people quiet who would have to be in on the conspiracy?

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If Native Americans recognize them as people, and people start insisting they be treated as such, will we have to give them rights? Property?
What problem do you think the "authorities" are worried about if they were given rights? 300 million people in this country already have rights. And if they were recognized as people, then like all people, they would have to pay for property. But I'm sure they could earn a good living on the talk show circuit.

Last edited by markn+; 04-14-2017 at 10:56 PM.
  #64  
Old 04-14-2017, 11:25 PM
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Would it be legal to shoot a gorilla or chimpanzee if you saw it in a forest in Texas (or the Pacific Northwest)? That is, assuming it wasn't attacking you.

(Just to clarify, this is not sarcasm or a rhetorical device. I'm actually asking.)
  #65  
Old 04-15-2017, 12:23 AM
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Bigfoot is protected in Washington state.

Most states have laws protecting endangered species. Bigfoot seems pretty elusive and hard to find. Their population must be pretty small, assuming that they exist,

http://modernnotion.com/dont-shoot-b...-its-homicide/
Brought up in post #26 three years ago.
  #66  
Old 04-15-2017, 01:50 AM
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The weirdest and most mysterious thing about this thread is why it was allowed to remain in GQ. I'm with Musicat on this one. And with all due respect Colibri, finding another species of Tapir in the middle of Amazoinia or reclassifying existing known animals is quite a far cry from finding a Bigfoot in Texas. I'm from Texas, I grew up and hunted every corner of it. I've also backpacked and camped in most of it. Even in the depths of the Big Thicket or the bowels of its national forests you will find people. I've found almost every kind of skull you can think of, heck I've even found an eagle skull. I've found bones by the thousands. Every last one of them accounted for in an existing species.

Given that Bigfeets (Bigfoots?) would need to have sustained a breeding population for thousands and thousands of years and remain undetected and leave no remains is just not possible.
  #67  
Old 04-15-2017, 02:27 AM
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I'm polluting the thread a little, but I recall reading a scifi story--almost certainly first published in Asimov's Science Fiction--about an alternate universe in which the Americas was populated not by other humans, but by a relict group of hominids with rather lesser intelligence than homo sapiens, but beyond that of the great apes. A legal and ethical controversy raged and--SPOILER!--it turns out interbreeding is possible.

Anyone got info on this? My patented Lazy Google turned up nothing.
  #68  
Old 04-15-2017, 07:13 AM
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I believe that in Utah, the hunting season on Bigfoot is the first day which falls after March 31st.
  #69  
Old 04-15-2017, 07:42 AM
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The weirdest and most mysterious thing about this thread is why it was allowed to remain in GQ.
The content of the laws is a factual matter. Why wouldn't it be in GQ?
  #70  
Old 04-15-2017, 08:42 AM
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The content of the laws is a factual matter. Why wouldn't it be in GQ?
Since Bigfoot really doesn't exist, it's a hypothetical. Seems like it should go in IMHO.
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Old 04-15-2017, 08:48 AM
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If it weren't a hypothetical, then it would need to go in IMHO.
  #72  
Old 04-15-2017, 08:54 AM
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So you think it's the local tourism boards that have these vast resources for the bigfoot denial conspiracy?

In truth, proof that bigfoot existed would be the biggest boon to tourism they could ever hope to get. Thousands of people would be flocking to the woods for a chance to see a bigfoot.
Maybe they aren't all hippy dippy beings? They have been called cannibals, etc.. Potentially Dangerous.

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And you didn't answer Lemur866's question: how do these "authorities" keep the hundreds of people quiet who would have to be in on the conspiracy?
.

They mostly dont have to. Smart ass skeptics already mock them enough. Maybe it's a reputation thing.



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What problem do you think the "authorities" are worried about if they were given rights? 300 million people in this country already have rights. And if they were recognized as people, then like all people, they would have to pay for property. But I'm sure they could earn a good living on the talk show circuit.
They can force bigfoot to pay tax?

This is of course assuming they are real. Who knows, I haven't seen one with my own eyes, but do think there may be more to it than just hoaxes.
  #73  
Old 04-15-2017, 09:16 AM
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Would it be legal to shoot a gorilla or chimpanzee if you saw it in a forest in Texas (or the Pacific Northwest)? That is, assuming it wasn't attacking you.

(Just to clarify, this is not sarcasm or a rhetorical device. I'm actually asking.)
My Google-fu is off this morning, all I'm getting is basketball hits when I look for cites ...

I seem to remember many years ago that some folks were out in the woods hunting in Southern Oregon (since renamed Jefferson) ... they had licenses, the proper tags and it was in fact bear season ... so they shot a bear ... so far so good, but when they got to the carcass they noticed right away it was somewhat larger than the usual black bear (they are a bit smaller here on the West Coast) and it was colored a little funny ...

Turns out they shot a Grizzly Bear ... a pretty serious violation of ODFW regulations ... so they turned themselves in right away and they were given a pass on the offense ... it was ruled an innocent mistake since Grizzlies hadn't been seen in Jefferson for nearly a century ... and this particular animal was escaped from a nearby wildlife park ...

So it is illegal ... but that doesn't mean it's automatically prosecuted ... just don't be a jackass towards law enforcement officials ...

I want to believe that anyone who bags a Bigfoot would promptly deliver it to a local university's Zoology Department for a proper scientific description to be written out ... and this action would clear them of any wrong-doing ... although one might still have to deal with a civil lawsuit financed with J.D. Cooper's money ... I'd love to sit in on that hearing regarding standing ...
  #74  
Old 04-15-2017, 10:11 AM
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Maybe they aren't all hippy dippy beings? They have been called cannibals, etc.. Potentially Dangerous.
Bears are not only potentially dangerous, they're actually dangerous. And yet thousands of people go hiking and camping in bear-infested forests every year. Some morons even approach the bears and try to feed them.

Anyway, I'm not really following your argument. You're saying these "authorities" know so much about bigfoot that they know that they're likely to kill people they come in contact with? How do they know this? Have a lot of people been killed in bigfoot encounters? Why aren't loggers and hikers who spend a lot of time in the forest also aware of this? And I thought you said earlier that bigfoots avoid encounters with people because they know they will be shot by the murderous humans.
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Old 04-15-2017, 11:31 AM
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  #76  
Old 04-15-2017, 11:56 AM
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If it weren't a hypothetical, then it would need to go in IMHO.
I can see your point. I'm not criticizing the modding, I just said it seemed strange to me.
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Old 04-15-2017, 11:57 AM
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Bears are not only potentially dangerous, they're actually dangerous. And yet thousands of people go hiking and camping in bear-infested forests every year. Some morons even approach the bears and try to feed them.

Anyway, I'm not really following your argument. You're saying these "authorities" know so much about bigfoot that they know that they're likely to kill people they come in contact with? How do they know this? Have a lot of people been killed in bigfoot encounters? Why aren't loggers and hikers who spend a lot of time in the forest also aware of this? And I thought you said earlier that bigfoots avoid encounters with people because they know they will be shot by the murderous humans.
Depends on the people, 'squatch and situation.
  #78  
Old 04-15-2017, 04:37 PM
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Somebody might go after the shooter for violating the terms of his hunting license... ("Does it say 'Bigfoot' anywhere on this card?")
I thought if it didn't have a listed season and wasn't on the endangered list it was huntable [perhaps as vermin?]
  #79  
Old 04-15-2017, 05:29 PM
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Bugs and Daffy tearing posters off a tree:

"It's Rabbit Season!"
"Duck Season!"
"Rabbit Season!"
"Duck Season!"
"Bigfoot Season!"

"Shhhh! Be vewwy, vewwy quiet. We're hunting Sasquatch! Hahahahahahaha! "

Last edited by cochrane; 04-15-2017 at 05:32 PM.
  #80  
Old 12-20-2018, 01:11 AM
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Update: someone recently nearly shot Bigfoot. The primate in question insists that he isn't Bigfoot, but that sounds exactly like what Bigfoot would say.
  #81  
Old 12-20-2018, 11:15 AM
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The person who did the shooting would ultimately be seen as doing science a favor, though, if he indeed provided the body to a university -- providing confirmation of a heretofore unknown primate. It would be the discovery of the century! Surely the hunter would be exempted from prosecution. I dunno!

After official confirmation of the species, the second person who shot one would be in a load of trouble, I think...

Excellent point!
  #82  
Old 12-20-2018, 12:28 PM
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Update: someone recently nearly shot Bigfoot. The primate in question insists that he isn't Bigfoot, but that sounds exactly like what Bigfoot would say.
I hope Bigfoot reads that article, apparently he just needs to start wearing a bright orange jacket and people will stop shooting at him.
  #83  
Old 12-20-2018, 01:42 PM
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Aside, from something I learned from another SDMB thread: The actor playing Chewbacca did, in fact, have to wear a high-visibility vest while on location and not filming, precisely so that he wouldn't get mistaken for Bigfoot.
  #84  
Old 12-20-2018, 01:55 PM
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Aside, from something I learned from another SDMB thread: The actor playing Chewbacca did, in fact, have to wear a high-visibility vest while on location and not filming, precisely so that he wouldn't get mistaken for Bigfoot.
This reminds me of a situation my environmental engineer friend encountered. He was wearing a white hazmat suit while collecting samples of water every 100 feet in a stream that had been polluted by a hog farm water runoff.

He heard several gunshots in the distance while working.

He told me that since it was deer season and he was wearing a white suit he thought he would be OK.

Then he realized that it only took one idiot with a deer rifle and a wish to be the first guy to bag a space alien and he'd end up dead.

Packed up his test kit and got the hell out of there.

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  #85  
Old 12-20-2018, 03:01 PM
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This reminds me of a situation my environmental engineer friend encountered. He was wearing a white hazmat suit while collecting samples of water every 100 feet in a stream that had been polluted by a hog farm water runoff.

He heard several gunshots in the distance while working.

He told me that since it was deer season and he was wearing a white suit he thought he would be OK.

Then he realized that it only took one idiot with a deer rifle and a wish to be the first guy to bag a space alien and he'd end up dead.

Packed up his test kit and got the hell out of there.
They are called White-tailed Deer for a reason. When white-tailed deer are spooked, they lift their tails, exposing the white underside of their tail, and the white hair running down both legs of their back side, and run away. White-tailed deer also raise their white tails when they poop. And they poop a lot.

White-tailed deer hunters look for antlers, brown outlines, and white tails. Who ever told your friend to wear white, in the woods, during white-tailed deer season, probably doesn't like him very much. just sayin'
  #86  
Old 12-20-2018, 04:44 PM
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Serious question. Someone above claimed that killing a mammal not an official game species was illegal in Maine. Does this mean that setting a mousetrap is a crime there?
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Old 12-20-2018, 04:51 PM
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Suppose a surviving individual of a hominid sideline, so far unknown to science, is found and deliberately killed by a licensed hunter.
Why is this important to include? Hunter's receive licenses to kill certain numbers and breeds of animals, such as deer, ducks, pheasants, etc. within certain time periods. There is no general hunting license that permits hunters to kill animals at will.

Well unless you are killing as a part of the hunger games, and then it's a completely different situation.
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Old 12-20-2018, 04:56 PM
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On a separate note, it's a shame no one has verified the existence of bigfoot yet. It may require that nearly every human being on the earth to carry around a high definition camera and video camera on their person at all times so that when bigfoot does appear, then actual photographic and or video evidence could be obtained. Until our society is ready to be that prepared, we'll only have vague eyewitness accounts of bigfoot sightings.
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Old 12-20-2018, 05:11 PM
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Serious question. Someone above claimed that killing a mammal not an official game species was illegal in Maine. Does this mean that setting a mousetrap is a crime there?
I don't know about this (I would assume that mice, rats and bats are not protected wildlife?), but, in response to some of the comments above, surely it must be highly illegal to unload the old elephant gun on a target that you don't even know what it is-- Bigfoot, a guy in a fancy dress, whatever.

Now I am no professional zoologist, but according to Wikipedia there is a real-life example of identifying a species without bagging a zoological holotype, though according to the article it appears to be controversial. Either way, it would not be done by some random drunken idiot. ("Wabbit season! Duck season!")

Last edited by DPRK; 12-20-2018 at 05:14 PM.
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Old 12-20-2018, 05:37 PM
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On a separate note, it's a shame no one has verified the existence of bigfoot yet. It may require that nearly every human being on the earth to carry around a high definition camera and video camera on their person at all times so that when bigfoot does appear, then actual photographic and or video evidence could be obtained. Until our society is ready to be that prepared, we'll only have vague eyewitness accounts of bigfoot sightings.
I see that two-thirds of the world population does already carry a camera, https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ers-worldwide/ many of them high-definition, so the mere fact that there are no photographs extant of these mythical creatures would seem to be a good indicator that they do not exist.
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Old 12-20-2018, 05:39 PM
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Why is this important to include? ... There is no general hunting license that permits hunters to kill animals at will.
Probably because it gives legitimacy to the person being out on public land with a loaded firearm with killin' on his mind, differentiating that person from a crazed drunk on a shooting spree. Also, there are situations in which a hunter might have to shoot a non-licence animal. Being charged by a bear protecting cubs or a kill comes to mind... and what if the bear turned out to be a bigfoot instead? That person would probably be looked at much more favorably than an escaped prisoner who's shooting at anything human-looking with a stolen hand gun while running away.
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Old 12-20-2018, 05:50 PM
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And that's worldwide: It's probably much higher for Americans.

But I'm pretty sure that Omar was being facetious.

EDIT:

Oh, and most states have a category for "vermin" animals, which can be killed at will whenever encountered (though there might be other relevant laws, such as discharging firearms within city limits). Mice would be a typical example.

Last edited by Chronos; 12-20-2018 at 05:51 PM.
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Old 12-22-2018, 01:08 PM
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Serious question. Someone above claimed that killing a mammal not an official game species was illegal in Maine. Does this mean that setting a mousetrap is a crime there?
I'm familiar with Game officials in a state where they do something similar. First rule in the book is that shooting all animals is illegal except for those subsequently listed and with the specified allowable dates. Technically, they start by defaulting everything to be illegal, then walk that back with rules. So if it isn't mentioned in the rule book to be ok, it is defaulted to being illegal. It would appear that killing a mouse would be illegal.

No one has ever been prosecuted for that though. But, I don't like that mentality and I wonder if it would hold up to constitutional challenge if a case were brought up.

Other states I've lived in go by the idea that if its not in the book than it defaults to being legal.

Anecdote: Years ago, I didn't know if it was ok to kill chipmunks in my garden. I called fish and game. They looked.....nothing says that it is illegal so I'm fine. BUT...in the other state.....since it doesn't specifically say that killing chipmunks is allowed, it would be illegal.

Last edited by Sigene; 12-22-2018 at 01:11 PM.
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Old 12-22-2018, 01:14 PM
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I see that two-thirds of the world population does already carry a camera, https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ers-worldwide/ many of them high-definition, so the mere fact that there are no photographs extant of these mythical creatures would seem to be a good indicator that they do not exist.
I think you were whooshed. This is precisely what Omar meant.

Obligatory xkcd reference:
https://xkcd.com/1235/

And supplementary obligatory note that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence is a stupid aphorism, because it's so widely misunderstood and misapplied. To the contrary, when a hypothesis predicts that we should expect see evidence, then absence of evidence may be compelling evidence that the hypothesis is false (i.e. evidence of absence).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_of_absence

Carl Sagan meant well in promoting the aphorism in situations where it does apply, but unfortunately did more harm than good, I think.

Last edited by Riemann; 12-22-2018 at 01:18 PM.
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Old 12-23-2018, 04:08 AM
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I'm polluting the thread a little, but I recall reading a scifi story--almost certainly first published in Asimov's Science Fiction--about an alternate universe in which the Americas was populated not by other humans, but by a relict group of hominids with rather lesser intelligence than homo sapiens, but beyond that of the great apes. A legal and ethical controversy raged and--SPOILER!--it turns out interbreeding is possible.

Anyone got info on this? My patented Lazy Google turned up nothing.
Have only just noticed this post from 2017. Could the work concerned, be A Different Flesh by Harry Turtledove? I have not actually read same; but I understand that it's a collection of short stories, all by Turtledove: set at various times over the span of the seventeenth to the twentieth century. Premise of the work is that the Americas -- discovered by Europeans at approximately the same date as in "real history" -- were inhabited not by homo sapiens; but by homo erectus (referred to by the European colonists, as "sims"), plus sundry megafauna which in "real history" were exterminated pre-colonisation, by the h. sapiens Native Americans.
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Old 12-23-2018, 10:04 AM
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I haven't read all the responses, but no one has seemed to brought up the idea of "How can you PROVE, the bigfoot was human enough?" You can't prove this newly discovered dead critter was sentient or more intelligent than a dog, squirrel, horse, monkey, or mouse.

So I don't think you can charge someone with murder in the human sense if you can't prove this critter was in that class of organism. There may be other charges, but homicide seems right out.

Last edited by Sigene; 12-23-2018 at 10:05 AM.
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Old 12-23-2018, 10:31 AM
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..."How can you PROVE, the bigfoot was human enough?" You can't prove this newly discovered dead critter was sentient or more intelligent than a dog, squirrel, horse, monkey, or mouse.
Sure you can. The first thing we'd do if someone really encountered a new ape-like species would be to sequence its genome, which would show its phylogeny.
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Old 12-23-2018, 10:43 AM
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Sure you can. The first thing we'd do if someone really encountered a new ape-like species would be to sequence its genome, which would show its phylogeny.
Cool....so maybe its a new primate (or a weird kangaroo); killing primates is not homicide. As far as I know, DNA of newly discovered organisms cannot prove sentience. Only if the DNA proves that its human, can you bring homicide charges....but then if its human, its not bigfoot.
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Old 12-23-2018, 10:55 AM
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As far as I know, DNA of newly discovered organisms cannot prove sentience.
The genome sequence can show its phylogeny with absolute certainty. When you know its relationship to other living species, and its evolutionary divergence time, you can make strong inferences about its sentience and intelligence. It might show that it's a type of kangaroo. Or it might show that it's a close relative to humans that diverged from the human lineage half a million years ago.
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Old 12-23-2018, 11:50 AM
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The genome sequence can show its phylogeny with absolute certainty. When you know its relationship to other living species, and its evolutionary divergence time, you can make strong inferences about its sentience and intelligence. It might show that it's a type of kangaroo. Or it might show that it's a close relative to humans that diverged from the human lineage half a million years ago.

but still does not prove sentience. Or enough to convict of "homicide"
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