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  #151  
Old 02-19-2020, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Absolute View Post
We've all got problems - this one's yours.
It becomes your problem too if you're seated directly in front of me.


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Originally Posted by Absolute View Post
The intersection of all the conditions required to make a sympathetic case here (tall person, urgent travel, would normally pay to upgrade, only basic economy available, no other routes, etc.) is too rare to justify the position that reclining is wrong in general.
You don't need ALL of these conditions, though--that's the point. I'm not even particularly tall, for example, but I have long legs relative to my short torso, so at 5'7" some seat configurations will impinge upon me. It doesn't necessarily have to be urgent travel for upgrades to be unavailable, either because they are sold out, not even offered (if most of your flying is LAX to JFK or IAD, I think you may not realize what the options are like for flying into Wichita, Kansas, or Amarillo, Texas, but the rules you want to exist would apply to those flights too), or off-limits for whatever reason.
  #152  
Old 02-19-2020, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Fiveyearlurker View Post
Probably because you could have switched to one of those many empty seats and chose to act in a very strange and aggressive manner instead.
Maybe, but I've also been on flights where the cabin crew was on a power trip: you WILL sit in your assigned seat, even if others are available, or you are a "disruptive passenger." Particularly post 9/11, getting labelled disruptive is not a good situation.
  #153  
Old 02-19-2020, 11:19 AM
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It is amazing the knots people are twisting themselves into so they don't have to be considerate of other people.
  #154  
Old 02-19-2020, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by madmonk28 View Post
It is amazing the knots people are twisting themselves into so they don't have to be considerate of other people.
Who is being inconsiderate? The person who uses the reclining function built into the seat? Or the passenger behind them who denies them the option because, knowing that they are tall, they chose not to pay for an extra space seat?

Realistically, it's the airlines who are responsible for setting the passengers against each other.

Last edited by Dewey Finn; 02-19-2020 at 11:37 AM.
  #155  
Old 02-19-2020, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Riemann View Post
Nope. Seats are designed to recline, so nobody is taking away "your" space, it's a feature of the seat configuration. Similarly, your seat is designed to recline. I get that you don't like this, and you'd prefer that all seats were non-reclining. But that isn't the seat configuration that most airlines provide at the moment.
The airplane bathrooms are also designed to be used - that still doesn't mean you can camp out in one the whole flight. Sure, the airlines could solve this "problem" by providing each passenger with a 5 minute passcode every two hours to make everything "fair", but sometimes people have valid reasons to need to spend 20+ minutes in there, right? Just don't be a jerk about it.

The armrests between the seats are also designed to be used, that still doesn't mean you can always expect to hog the whole thing. Sure, the airlines could solve the "problem" by increasing the width of the seats to give everyone their own armrest (and charging everyone more), or putting a partition between the armrest (since the partition itself is going to take up space, everyone would be left with less room overall). Or everyone could just not be a jerk about it.

Seat reclining is the same thing. The airlines could solve the "problem" by eliminating/reducing the tilt angle for everyone, or increasing the distance between rows (and charging everyone more). But sometimes its a redeye when everyone is sleeping anyway, or there's a small child behind you, or you were simply polite about it and asked first. Again, just don't be a jerk about it.
  #156  
Old 02-19-2020, 11:40 AM
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I just remembered that my very first mod warning was in a thread on this very topic.
  #157  
Old 02-19-2020, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by slash2k View Post
Maybe, but I've also been on flights where the cabin crew was on a power trip: you WILL sit in your assigned seat, even if others are available, or you are a "disruptive passenger." Particularly post 9/11, getting labelled disruptive is not a good situation.
Oh, c'mon. Here's the claim:

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Originally Posted by Saint Cad View Post
Back in the 80's I was on a flight with like 10 people on it - plenty of empty seats. The guy in front of me decides to recline all the way. I spent the next 2 hours banging the back of his chair with my knees. When we debarked he shot me the nastiest look.
You think for one second (assuming that this happened as described) that a flight attendant would stop a passenger from moving one seat to the left or the right of this flight with 10 people on it or even notice if it happened? And that Saint Cad decided that his or her best course of action to avoid being labeled a disruptive passenger by calmly moving one seat was to instead spend the next 2 hours banging the back of his chair with his knees?
  #158  
Old 02-19-2020, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Fiveyearlurker View Post
You think for one second (assuming that this happened as described) that a flight attendant would stop a passenger from moving one seat to the left or the right of this flight with 10 people on it or even notice if it happened? And that Saint Cad decided that his or her best course of action to avoid being labeled a disruptive passenger by calmly moving one seat was to instead spend the next 2 hours banging the back of his chair with his knees?
I have no idea at all whether this did happen as described, but oh yes, I have met people who would be more than happy to come down like a load of bricks on anybody who dared to deviate from their assigned position, and with only ten people in the cabin, it's a lot easier to keep track of who is "supposed to be" sitting where.

This was indeed supposed to be back in the '80s, when the rules were somewhat loosy-goosy, and it would be rare now for a flight to be that empty. However, today, failure to comply with the cabin crew before take-off means the plane won't leave until you comply or are removed from the flight; failure to comply in-flight means you'll get to meet law enforcement at the other end. Either makes a bad day a whole lot worse.

Have you never run into a power-mad petty dictator who demands absolute compliance with the rules, no matter how absurd? They're thankfully rare, but I've encountered several over the years in various positions, and it's never a pleasant experience. Sure, you can complain later, but that won't help you in the immediate.

Here is one example: the airline claimed a couple were repeatedly trying to "self-upgrade" to better seats; the couple claimed they sat somewhere else in a half-empty cabin because a sleeping man was in their seats. They were removed from the flight. No matter who was right in that instance, their travel plans were disrupted.
  #159  
Old 02-19-2020, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by slash2k View Post
I have no idea at all whether this did happen as described, but oh yes, I have met people who would be more than happy to come down like a load of bricks on anybody who dared to deviate from their assigned position, and with only ten people in the cabin, it's a lot easier to keep track of who is "supposed to be" sitting where.

This was indeed supposed to be back in the '80s, when the rules were somewhat loosy-goosy, and it would be rare now for a flight to be that empty. However, today, failure to comply with the cabin crew before take-off means the plane won't leave until you comply or are removed from the flight; failure to comply in-flight means you'll get to meet law enforcement at the other end. Either makes a bad day a whole lot worse.

Have you never run into a power-mad petty dictator who demands absolute compliance with the rules, no matter how absurd? They're thankfully rare, but I've encountered several over the years in various positions, and it's never a pleasant experience. Sure, you can complain later, but that won't help you in the immediate.

Here is one example: the airline claimed a couple were repeatedly trying to "self-upgrade" to better seats; the couple claimed they sat somewhere else in a half-empty cabin because a sleeping man was in their seats. They were removed from the flight. No matter who was right in that instance, their travel plans were disrupted.
We have truly entered absurd parts of this argument.

I'm quite sure that Saint Cad's terrible behavior was not affected by the story of a Dallas couple who tried to scam a free first class upgrade thirty years later. He or she had the option to move seats from one of the many open seats on this magical 10 person flight.

There is no flight crew in the world who would have objected to this, and Saint Cad's story makes no mention of making any attempt to remedy the situation by rational means and instead decided to kick the seat for two hours and tells this story as if he or she is the one in the right. Anybody who chooses instead of taking this rational choice and instead chooses to kick the back of a seat on an empty flight instead (and uses this as an example of the other person's bad behavior 30 years later) has made a series of remarkably questionable decisions.
  #160  
Old 02-19-2020, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Fiveyearlurker View Post
I'm quite sure that Saint Cad's terrible behavior was not affected by the story of a Dallas couple who tried to scam a free first class upgrade thirty years later.
I didn't say it was. I used this as an example of a flight crew objecting to passengers sitting in the "wrong" seats (not, apparently, first-class seats, however; it sounds like they may have grabbed premium economy seats), with adverse consequences for the passengers.

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Originally Posted by Fiveyearlurker View Post
There is no flight crew in the world who would have objected to this
I have MET the flight crew that would and did object to passengers sitting in seats not assigned (and that was a smaller jet that only had one class, so it definitely wasn't somebody trying to scam first-class seats). You are lucky that you have not encountered people like that.

I repeat again that I've no idea whether Saint Cad ran into a similar crew or was just being a jerk, but don't try to tell me it's an impossible story.
  #161  
Old 02-19-2020, 12:53 PM
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On a really small plane, they may not want people moving around because it can throw off the balance (seriously).
  #162  
Old 02-19-2020, 01:16 PM
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This whole debate reminds me of when the hot issue being debated about airline travel several years ago was everyone screaming about the pat down policy at TSA security... or maybe it was the full body scanners. Hard to keep track of the exact recreational outrage topic of the week. The people whom I knew personally who would rant and rage about this in person to me because they knew I traveled alot, or would share posts or comment on others via social media, were also people that I knew probably had not been on a plane in years. At best they took one flight every year or two - maybe. It had nearly zero impact but it was the cause of the day in the news or on Facebook posts and they just have to jump on the bandwagon about the violations of personal liberty, freedom, and their personal convenience.

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- Frequent business traveler averaging 50+ flights per year almost always in coach/economy.
- Agrees the airlines should just do away with reclining seats outside of Business Class, First Class, and maybe even Economy/Premium but they won't because it is a sales benefit for attracting customers.
- 100% believes that the current seating systems means if I paid for that seat and it reclines I am not the offending party for using what I paid for.
- 100% believes that if you know seats recline and you choose to pay for the cheapest seats with the least leg room then you made your choice.
- 99.9% of the time I never recline my seat. Most of my flights are in the 2-3 hour or less range and I don't find I need to recline to be comfortable.
- I have never been inconvenienced by a passenger in front of me reclining his/her seat to warrant the outrage shown here.
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  #163  
Old 02-19-2020, 02:00 PM
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I never recline my seat, because I don't like it when the person in front of it does it to me.

I'm tall, and I have social anxiety, and I like my personal space, so I don't like it when the person in front of me puts their seat back. Though I think my dislike of this is mostly a gut reaction to the impression that my personal space is being stolen. (Whether or not that's reasonable, you be the judge.)

And I can never sleep in planes, so I don't need to recline my seat anyway.

That being said, that's just my opinion, and this is one of those issues where either side will never agree with the arguments of the opposite side.

Last edited by EmilyG; 02-19-2020 at 02:05 PM.
  #164  
Old 02-19-2020, 03:56 PM
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I have flown Southwest exclusively for about 20 years, and I can't recall the last time I was able to recline a seat on one of their planes. Sometimes I'll try it, thinking I'll recline it about an inch—enough to give me a sliver of additional comfort without annoying the person behind me. So I press the button and push back on the seat, and nothing happens.

I do agree that it's a bit rude to recline an airline seat to its maximum extent (and more so when it's done quickly and abruptly). However, that isn't a tenth as rude as pounding on the back of someone's seat like a defiant four-year-old.
I've reclined them a little bit when I'm on empty flights with no one behind me, but they don't go back very much, yet another advantage of flying Southwest.
I'm a bit cramped in the older planes even without anyone reclining - I feel I have plenty of room on the 700s.
The last bad experience I had was on United when I was flying for NSF and had the federal travel agency get my seat - always in the damn middle.
  #165  
Old 02-19-2020, 05:06 PM
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I didn't say it was. I used this as an example of a flight crew objecting to passengers sitting in the "wrong" seats (not, apparently, first-class seats, however; it sounds like they may have grabbed premium economy seats), with adverse consequences for the passengers.
In this case, the "wrong" seats were an upgrade. That's not what happened in Saint Cad's story, so is entirely irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by slash2k View Post

I have MET the flight crew that would and did object to passengers sitting in seats not assigned (and that was a smaller jet that only had one class, so it definitely wasn't somebody trying to scam first-class seats). You are lucky that you have not encountered people like that.

I repeat again that I've no idea whether Saint Cad ran into a similar crew or was just being a jerk, but don't try to tell me it's an impossible story.
So, again, in Saint Cad's story, he faulted the other guy for not moving. That was the whole point of his story. The other guy could have moved, but chose to recline in front of him. Remember?

So, did this really, really rare crew (some might say imaginary) also specifically not want Saint Cad to move, but would have been perfectly fine with the other guy moving?

That's an impossible story. Seems like the jerk option is immensely more likely.

Last edited by Fiveyearlurker; 02-19-2020 at 05:09 PM.
  #166  
Old 02-19-2020, 05:54 PM
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In this case, the "wrong" seats were an upgrade. That's not what happened in Saint Cad's story, so is entirely irrelevant.
The airline says they were an upgrade, the couple themselves say they were merely more economy seats a couple of rows ahead. I haven't seen airliners where business class is in the same cabin as coach, so I suggested they might have been premium economy seats, but it's also possible either the airline or the couple was incorrect. My point was that sitting in the "wrong" seats got them removed.

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Originally Posted by Fiveyearlurker View Post
So, again, in Saint Cad's story, he faulted the other guy for not moving. That was the whole point of his story. The other guy could have moved, but chose to recline in front of him. Remember?

So, did this really, really rare crew (some might say imaginary) also specifically not want Saint Cad to move, but would have been perfectly fine with the other guy moving?
Are you asserting Saint Cad's crew was imaginary, or are you attempting to call me a liar? (The situation I ran into did not involve reclining; it did involve not moving to another seat and not storing your carry-on baggage in the bin across the aisle, and the flight attendant very nearly confiscated one woman's carry-on because she had the audacity to stow it under the seat ahead of the empty seat next to her, instead of under the seat directly ahead of her. If those aren't petty rules, what would you call them?)

What leads you to conclude that the crew would have been any more willing to tolerate the other guy moving? The alternative for the other guy might have been simply not reclining.
  #167  
Old 02-19-2020, 06:31 PM
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The airline says they were an upgrade, the couple themselves say they were merely more economy seats a couple of rows ahead. I haven't seen airliners where business class is in the same cabin as coach, so I suggested they might have been premium economy seats, but it's also possible either the airline or the couple was incorrect. My point was that sitting in the "wrong" seats got them removed.
On United, the Economy Plus seats look identical to the regular Economy seats, except they have a few more inches of leg room, and are in the same cabin as Economy. The only indication that they are Economy Plus seats is there there's a label that says "Economy Plus" next to the row number. And I know from both personal experience and what I've read on air travel message boards that United's flight attendants are very strict about not allowing passengers to move from regular Economy to Economy Plus seats.

So I can believe that the couple thought they were sitting in normal Economy seats, but had in fact moved to Economy Plus seats without realizing it. And since United charges more for these seats they are technically an upgrade and the flight attendants can't allow them to sit there (It would be nice if United had a way for passengers to pay for an upgrade to Economy Plus onboard, though). If the couple either refused to go back to their assigned seats or repeatedly moved back to the Economy Plus seats after being told not to, I can see how it might have escalated to the point where they were removed.

But non of that is really relevant to Saint Cad's situation. If it took place in the 1980s Premium Economy didn't exist yet, and if there were really only like 10 people on the flight there should have been plenty of normal economy seats to move to anyway, unless it was like a tiny turboprop or something. I have never seen a flight attendant not allow someone to move to another equivalent seat (key word being "equivalent"). I've done it many times. The only time I've ever heard them say not to switch seats was on a small turboprop, when it was for weight and balance reasons.
  #168  
Old 02-19-2020, 06:32 PM
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I’ve moved seats all the time on planes- last flight I took a mother and young daughter were seated across the aisle, and I was in the window seat. I swapped with the mom, so mom and daughter could be in the same row.

Didn’t ask the attendant and she didn’t bat an eye. Do it all the time. Now if I had just moved into an empty seat in a premium row (better economy, business, first) I would have likely been asked to move back. But an empty seat within my seat “class”? Happens all the time.
  #169  
Old 02-19-2020, 07:00 PM
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I’ve moved seats all the time on planes- last flight I took a mother and young daughter were seated across the aisle, and I was in the window seat. I swapped with the mom, so mom and daughter could be in the same row.

Didn’t ask the attendant and she didn’t bat an eye. Do it all the time. Now if I had just moved into an empty seat in a premium row (better economy, business, first) I would have likely been asked to move back. But an empty seat within my seat “class”? Happens all the time.
Yup. On an overnight transatlantic flight to Ireland I was on the entire back half of the plane was empty. It was the type with the 3-4-3 seat configuration and many people (including myself) moved back so they could have an entire empty row to lie down on. No one had any issue with it.
  #170  
Old 02-19-2020, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Eyebrows 0f Doom View Post
Yup. On an overnight transatlantic flight to Ireland I was on the entire back half of the plane was empty. It was the type with the 3-4-3 seat configuration and many people (including myself) moved back so they could have an entire empty row to lie down on. No one had any issue with it.
On Southwest flights with lots of empty seats the flight attendants encourage people to move around. Of course all seats are equal there, and there are no assigned seats.
The only exception is that when you are going on when the plane stops somewhere they ask you to keep your seats to help with the count of continuing passengers. Then you are allowed to move.
  #171  
Old 02-19-2020, 07:35 PM
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The airline says they were an upgrade, the couple themselves say they were merely more economy seats a couple of rows ahead. I haven't seen airliners where business class is in the same cabin as coach, so I suggested they might have been premium economy seats, but it's also possible either the airline or the couple was incorrect. My point was that sitting in the "wrong" seats got them removed.



Are you asserting Saint Cad's crew was imaginary, or are you attempting to call me a liar? (The situation I ran into did not involve reclining; it did involve not moving to another seat and not storing your carry-on baggage in the bin across the aisle, and the flight attendant very nearly confiscated one woman's carry-on because she had the audacity to stow it under the seat ahead of the empty seat next to her, instead of under the seat directly ahead of her. If those aren't petty rules, what would you call them?)

What leads you to conclude that the crew would have been any more willing to tolerate the other guy moving? The alternative for the other guy might have been simply not reclining.
I'm asserting that in the intervening 30 years your memory of the event may possibly be incorrect or so vanishingly rare that it doesn't matter. Your own sole example of it happening turned out to be a scam to get an upgrade.

Let me refresh your memory of this story:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saint Cad View Post
Back in the 80's I was on a flight with like 10 people on it - plenty of empty seats. The guy in front of me decides to recline all the way. I spent the next 2 hours banging the back of his chair with my knees. When we debarked he shot me the nastiest look.
(bolding mine)

Saint Cad is saying that this person should have chosen another seat to recline in. I pointed out the obvious alternative that Saint Cad could have also just chosen another seat from among the "plenty of empty seats". You mentioned that 30 years ago a flight crew wouldn't let you choose another seat and maybe that's what happened here. I'm pointing out that if this (vanishingly unlikely) scenario is what's going on, then why should Saint Cad have expected this other person to change their seats on a flight where nobody was allowed to change their seats?

If there is a part of this story that makes Saint Cad not look like the jerk here, he or she probably should have included it. But your excuse for them doesn't work at all.
  #172  
Old 02-19-2020, 07:55 PM
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Back in the 80's I was on a flight with like 10 people on it - plenty of empty seats. The guy in front of me decides to recline all the way. I spent the next 2 hours banging the back of his chair with my knees. When we debarked he shot me the nastiest look.
And your mom didn't stop you? Bad parenting.
  #173  
Old 02-19-2020, 10:04 PM
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I'm asserting that in the intervening 30 years your memory of the event may possibly be incorrect or so vanishingly rare that it doesn't matter. Your own sole example of it happening turned out to be a scam to get an upgrade.
What 30 years? Saint Cad's story was back in the 80s, but I didn't date mine, so why do you assume it was that long ago? (It wasn't--it was post-9/11--and I have very vivid memories of the attendant who reminded me so much of my 6th-grade music teacher, who also had a cow if anybody didn't sit in their assigned seating [ok, that one _was_ 30+ years ago]).

I did not intend my example to be the only example of it happening; it was merely the first example I found of somebody removed for sitting where they weren't supposed to (and while scam is certainly a possibility, it's not the only one; airlines lie as often as passengers do). Saint Cad has not returned to this thread, so we don't know what his(?) motivations were, but I am puzzled why you are so very determined to believe that every flight attendant is a model of decorum and good judgment at all times, and none of them ever have an off day.
  #174  
Old 02-20-2020, 04:35 AM
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If it's THAT uncomfortable for you to risk your legs being bumped, spring for more space. Sorry it's come to that, but sometimes it just sucks to be you.
Back in the day, airlines used to just let us sit at the exit rows. Now, they preferentially sell those rows to people with lots of flight hours, who for some reason want to sit in the seats adjacent to the galley and toilets, with no overhead storage, and with inconvenient in-flight entertainment. That's why they want you to be polite to me: so that they don't have to.

And
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Originally Posted by Dewey Finn View Post
T.
: the reason my tray doesn't sit flat when you recline is because it's propped up on my knees. The further back it comes, the sharper the angle it rises.
  #175  
Old 02-20-2020, 07:23 AM
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And : the reason my tray doesn't sit flat when you recline is because it's propped up on my knees. The further back it comes, the sharper the angle it rises.
Huh. Must be peculiar to the airline you fly, because on Southwest, the tray is not connected to the seat back at all. There is an arm that goes down the base of the seat, so when the occupant reclines, the tray doesn't tip.
  #176  
Old 02-20-2020, 08:53 AM
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Huh. Must be peculiar to the airline you fly, because on Southwest, the tray is not connected to the seat back at all. There is an arm that goes down the base of the seat, so when the occupant reclines, the tray doesn't tip.
Right. But I think you can slide it back a few inches if you want.

I 6'3". I always manage to get the extended seating for my flights. But then, I haven't had to make any last minute bookings... I don't think ever.

I also try to make sure that the seat behind me has the extended leg room. I don't feel too bad leaning my seat back a bit that way. I also try to get an aisle seat so I can at least stretch one leg out for 20 seconds or so.

I also have size 13 feet. Getting them crammed under the seat in front of me is a trick.
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  #177  
Old 02-20-2020, 03:36 PM
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I'm very likely to recline the seat so I can sleep. Trying to sleep at "attention" with my head dropping forward all the time doesn't work.
The sat in front of me being reclined has never bothered me, at mealtimes or any other.
At times when I was stuck in a nonreclining seat, whether through ignorance or the aftermath of a flight cancellation or what, I was miserable. And the one time I was in a broken seat that would not recline, when I politely informed the gate agent about it (so they could hopefully get it fixed) they upgraded me to 1st on the next leg.

The anti- reclining push seems to be a very recent thing, like the last 3-5 years.
  #178  
Old 02-20-2020, 10:33 PM
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This debate perplexes me.

1. Airplane seats recline. Every person in every reclining seat has a "right" to recline (subject to safety regs, etc.)

2. Reclining a seat interferes with the person in the row behind you. It makes it harder to get in and out of the seat, it makes it harder to eat or otherwise use the tray, and it makes it nearly impossible to use a laptop. Reclining without considering the preferences of the person in the row behind you is, by definition, inconsiderate.

3. If you are the person being reclined into, you have no rights with respect to the person in front of you. Interfering with their right to recline without considering their preferences is, by definition, inconsiderate.

4. To sum up so far: Every passenger has a right to recline. Doing so may be inconsiderate. Interfering with another person reclining also may be inconsiderate.

5. How do we solve this precious dilemma? Well, "communication" is often the first step in consideration. If you want to recline, or if you prefer not being reclined into - talk it out. Worth a try.

6. If you do not want to talk it out - i.e., consider the other person or people whose comfort depends in part on your action - do a rough-hash benefits analysis. Redeye flight? Recline! Morning, weekday flight, mostly business people working - don't recline! (Here's some shorthand: If the cabin lights are off, the assumption is that seats will be reclined. If they are on, the assumption is that they will not be.)

Miscellaneous:

"I paid for it": Yes, you did. You have a right to do a great many things, paid and unpaid, that still make you inconsiderate. (For example: cutting your nails or taking off your socks on the plane.) And, in some scenarios, a jerk.
"It's a feature of the seat": Yes, it is. The same seat accommodates a great many scenarios, including daytime and nighttime flights, near-empty flights, extra-large humans, extra-small humans, etc.
"It's the airline's fault": The airlines are in the business of providing services for a profit. More space costs more money, either in a different fare class or a different airline. Or perhaps a different mode of transportation.
"The person in front of me is a jerk who is leaning back." Sometimes life is like that. Grownups manage to deal.
"The person behind me is blocking my ability to lean back/banging unnecessarily on the seat.": You may be inconsiderate (or maybe not, depending). The person behind you is a jerk. In this case, the jerk should be disciplined by the flight crew.
  #179  
Old 02-20-2020, 10:51 PM
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This whole thing is stupid. The viral video currently making the rounds - the dumb woman thought it would be better to take video to post online than to just turn around and ask the guy to stop. And if the guy was being crowded by the woman reclining, just tap her on the shoulder and let her know. Jeebus, people.
In this case he did inform the woman that her reclining presented a problem, and she *refused* to accommodate him.
  #180  
Old 02-20-2020, 11:00 PM
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I recognize the person in front's God-given right to recline. I'm not going to change my habits around it though which means that, with my long legs, your seat will be on bump & vibrate mode throughout the flight. I assume this is acceptable to the reclining party since they passed on the option to pay extra for first class seats with more room behind them or making sure the plane has a rear row of reclining seats where they won't have to be inconvenienced. If it bothers you that much, you always have the option of paying for my upgrade but, otherwise, I assume you're happy with the arrangement.
  #181  
Old 02-21-2020, 06:08 AM
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In this case he did inform the woman that her reclining presented a problem, and she *refused* to accommodate him.
I'd never consider asking someone to not recline their seat, switch seats, etc without offering something in exchange.

Traveling with a child and wanting to sit next to them, I'd approach someone, explain my plight, then offer to buy them a drink once the cart comes out in exchange for their cooperation. Not a drinker, fine, how's about $20 for your trouble, along with my eternal gratitude?
  #182  
Old 02-21-2020, 06:43 AM
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I recognize the person in front's God-given right to recline. I'm not going to change my habits around it though which means that, with my long legs, your seat will be on bump & vibrate mode throughout the flight. I assume this is acceptable to the reclining party since they passed on the option to pay extra for first class seats with more room behind them or making sure the plane has a rear row of reclining seats where they won't have to be inconvenienced. If it bothers you that much, you always have the option of paying for my upgrade but, otherwise, I assume you're happy with the arrangement.
Accidental and incidental bumps as the person behind adjusts their position, gets in and out of their seat, puts their tray up and down is absolutely to be tolerated. If you’re not willing to put up with that then yes, you should get a first class seat.

Deliberate punching and hitting the seat for the purpose of making the person miserable, is not cool and not reasonable for the person to tolerate.
  #183  
Old 02-21-2020, 07:27 AM
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Accidental and incidental bumps as the person behind adjusts their position, gets in and out of their seat, puts their tray up and down is absolutely to be tolerated. If you’re not willing to put up with that then yes, you should get a first class seat.

Deliberate punching and hitting the seat for the purpose of making the person miserable, is not cool and not reasonable for the person to tolerate.
Nah, I'm not talking about punching the seat. But I'm going to move my legs around as much as I always do and that's going to be a constant source of movement for the seat in front of me. I'm regularly crossing or uncrossing my legs, shaking my foot, etc.
  #184  
Old 02-21-2020, 08:03 AM
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Nah, I'm not talking about punching the seat. But I'm going to move my legs around as much as I always do and that's going to be a constant source of movement for the seat in front of me. I'm regularly crossing or uncrossing my legs, shaking my foot, etc.


I don’t think anyone is saying not to do that. If the person in front doesn’t like it, yes, that’s on them.

Normal use of your seat by either party (reclining/moving around) is fine. Asking for accommodation is fine. Expecting it and becoming hostile if you don’t get it, not so much.
  #185  
Old 02-21-2020, 09:21 AM
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And some people try to signal their virtue without making any actual arguments on a debate forum.
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Like I said: There are some people who try to be considerate of other people, there are people who didn't realize they were negatively impacting other people, and there are people who don't care about other people. It's true in the air and on the ground
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The entirety of air flight is a miserable experience, from shoe and belt removal for security theater to omnipresent delays that screw up connections. Just accept it. It sucks. Once you accept the misery of flying, you can tilt your seat back and relax.
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Having the seat in front of me in the default position is not a negative impact. If I want more room, I have the option of paying for it.
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This whole thing is stupid. The viral video currently making the rounds - the dumb woman thought it would be better to take video to post online than to just turn around and ask the guy to stop. And if the guy was being crowded by the woman reclining, just tap her on the shoulder and let her know. Jeebus, people.

And there is the answer: be present and accountable to your own comfort. If someone reclines and it impinges you, let them know. If you want to recline, either do it slowly or just let the person know. Sheesh, it's like we cannot even communicate with one another any more.
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Originally Posted by Fretful Porpentine View Post
This is a silly debate. Of course you can recline. That is what the seat is designed for. (I say this as someone who basically never reclines, unless it's on an overnight flight.) I can see that it's courteous to ask first if people have just been served drinks or something, but otherwise, it's ridiculous to expect people not to use a feature that the seat is clearly designed to have.
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So when you said, "I am paying not to get my kneecaps broken," that was just a figure of speech?

Sounds like your beef is with your employer, not your fellow passengers.
Maybe Bob's "last name" explains some of it. 😮 "Did he really just say that Martha?" "Well your hearing aids are just as good as mine George! Yes. That's exactly what that whippersnapper said about that poor daddy-long-legs snowflake. Just bc people of his given political correctness are prone to complain about the rights of others interferring w their sensitive extremely sensitive nature doesn't mean that's the case here. Can poor Bob help it if his capitalist employer, who's paying for his air ticket already, has absolutely refused to accommodate his long shanks? Yes I'm assuming Bob has already stood up for himself & approached his employer about his delicate condition & special needs &... well George you know the rest of the story. Bc of poor Bob's genetic impairment of PC mentality considers his bourgeoisie capitalist employer in need of Gov't intervention bc since Bob has indeed spoken up for himself & assuming his employer not only paid for his fare but must've also purposely put him in short seats by ordering his gicket for him. After all we can't expect poor Bob, who doesn't have to order his seat (bc his employer must do so bc otherwise Bob would have a choice & thus be responsible for his own demise which as history shows us in overwhelming detail that those of the PC mentality are never in the wrong bc they never apologize, ergo they're always right...) & if Bob has problems he must've informed his employer... of course since Bob doesn't have to pay for his ticket & his employer must be the one ordering his ticket, we can assume Bob had to have expressed his willingness to give his employer a few denarii of his own so that when his employer bought his ticket they could've accommodated his rather lengthy needs.
Of course if my presumption of employer fault is wrong bc Bob orders his own tticket & therefore has the option to chip in a few bucks for his own vertically challenged needs since his employer is paying for the main ticket, & either one could write that extra special needs cost off on their taxes...
Well, if this isn't clear enuff by now, you will never ever know it...
🙃
  #186  
Old 02-21-2020, 11:17 AM
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...Everyone getting on a plane knows that seats recline, if that is a massive problem for you, don't fly.
Everyone getting on a plane knows that my colon contains noxious gas. You wouldn't mind if I expelled it in your direction, would you?


mmm
  #187  
Old 02-21-2020, 11:21 AM
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Everyone getting on a plane knows that my colon contains noxious gas.
Mustard gas?
  #188  
Old 02-21-2020, 12:12 PM
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It is amazing the knots people are twisting themselves into so they don't have to be considerate of other people.
This.

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Originally Posted by Dewey Finn View Post
Who is being inconsiderate? The person who uses the reclining function built into the seat? Or the passenger behind them who denies them the option because, knowing that they are tall, they chose not to pay for an extra space seat?

Realistically, it's the airlines who are responsible for setting the passengers against each other.
My WAG here is:

a) The airlines don't build the seats themselves. Some other company builds the seats for them. (I'm certain of this part, actually.)

b) They originally set the recline back in an era when there was more room between rows, before laptops were a thing, and when you only used the trays to put your food and drink on.

c) The companies that build the seats will modify the seats to the airlines' specs, within reason.

d) When the airlines squeeze the rows of seats closer together, having the seat construction companies adjust the recline is probably the last thing on their minds.

So yeah, it's very much the airlines' fault for not having the seats' recline reduced as they squeeze the rows together.

But that's not the airline behind you; it's another human being. If someone uses all that recline that was designed for seats that had more room between them, despite the fact that that excess room doesn't exist anymore, that person is being an asshole.

Maybe they're within their 'rights' to be an asshole. I won't argue that - let's face it, we all have the right to be assholes on a regular basis, in our encounters with other human beings. But the fact that one has a right to be an asshole, doesn't make one any less an asshole when someone avails themselves of that right.
  #189  
Old 02-21-2020, 12:31 PM
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Nah, I'm not talking about punching the seat. But I'm going to move my legs around as much as I always do and that's going to be a constant source of movement for the seat in front of me. I'm regularly crossing or uncrossing my legs, shaking my foot, etc.
To emphasize and generalize:

Under normal conditions in which an other has given me no reason think of them as someone who considers their comfort more important than mine I would be mindfully intentionally careful to minimize my actions imposing upon them, even upon some inconvenience or lesser comfort to myself. I think that is true for most of us.

If the other has not only signaled that their comfort matters more than mine, that they are more entitled to it than I am mine, moreover if they persist in doing that action with no compromise after a polite request to change the behavior, then my mindful intentional consideration of how my actions might impact them would be no more. Tucking my knees pressed up against the seat and pushing forward a bit in order to get comfortable, which of course I would otherwise never do, would be now allowable behavior.

Again, for me this is theoretical as I am never bothered by a reclining person ahead of me and am not a recliner myself. I sit, open up my book, and usually promptly fall asleep. But that is a reasonable understanding of our social contract with each other: have no consideration for the needs of others around you and you can expect them to have either no consideration of yours or a desire to passively aggressively "get even" with you for your "cheating" on the social contract.

Aeronautic science this is not.
  #190  
Old 02-21-2020, 04:09 PM
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But, then aren’t you saying that your comfort is more important than theirs?
  #191  
Old 02-21-2020, 06:21 PM
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No, I am saying it is not worth less, and potentially conflicting desires can usually be both be adequately met with mutual consideration and respect.

In this particular case the action being taken, the change, is the declining of the seat into space that was otherwise being occupied by another individual. It is a change, even if one allowed by the airline, of what was the default arrangement. If one is informed that doing such is imposing discomfort on another (it may not be, wouldn't bug me for example), and one persists in taking that action without any offer of any compromise (in consideration of the action-taker's comfort), with the attitude of "their problem" then one is an ass, and has released other's around them from any social contract to be considerate of them in any way, by action or inaction.
  #192  
Old 02-21-2020, 06:49 PM
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But it's a needless and bad idea for all of this to depend on different people's interpretation of the social contract, especially since that arrangement will tend to favor social cheats - people who are selfish dicks at the expense of people who are instinctively accommodating.

People who care about the issue are clearly split. Some people feel strongly that their comfort is compromised (or worse) by reclining seats. Some people can't sleep comfortably without reclining seats, so it's a problem if they can't recline on long haul flights.

So it's a terrible idea to distribute these people at random throughout the aircraft, to create maximum potential for conflict. Why can't the airlines simply establish that one section of the aircraft is for recliners, one section is for non-recliners? As a pro-recliner, I would look very favorably on an airline where I knew I could be sure of being able to recline my seat without worrying about objections from the person behind me. And it sounds like many non-recliners would feel equally positive toward an airline that provided a non-reclining section.

It seems we should all be lobbying the airlines for a better product.

Last edited by Riemann; 02-21-2020 at 06:52 PM.
  #193  
Old 02-21-2020, 07:56 PM
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I would clarification on the contradictory comments that seats don’t recline enough to offer extra comfort and seats recline so much that they are an assault on the passenger behind them. I don’t see how both of these can be true.
  #194  
Old 02-22-2020, 01:36 AM
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While I don't necessarily agree with the statement, it quite possible that the extra recline that you get is not really getting you a significantly more comfortable position, while at the same time restricting the space of the person behind you to a great extend.

Perception of the space to sit back a bit more is not the same of the perception of the you legspace or space in front of your face.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn moto g(6) met Tapatalk
  #195  
Old 02-22-2020, 01:44 AM
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I would clarification on the contradictory comments that seats don’t recline enough to offer extra comfort and seats recline so much that they are an assault on the passenger behind them. I don’t see how both of these can be true.
It's simple. A two-inch recline (standard on the major airlines now except Delta, and they're planning to join the others) makes very little difference to the person in the seat. It's simply too slight an angle. However, when there is very little space the front edge of your seat and the back edge of the seat back in front of you, 2 inches is significant.

We know pitch means amount of space between the forward edge of the seat back in one row to the forward edge of the seat back in the row in front. On some airlines, it's 31 inches or so--pretty cramped. But in economy airlines, it's 28-29 inches. Let's use 30 inches.

30 inches pitch minus 17 inches of seat (average depth) = 13 inches of space

But that 13 inches includes the depth of the seat back for the row in front. I can't find measurements for that, but if it's a mere 3 inches, that leaves you with

10 inches, front edge of seat to back edge of seat in front. Whew! Tight fit! Subtract the 2 inches of recline from the seat in front, and you're down to a mere 8", or 20% of that small space.

No wonder people get testy.
  #196  
Old 02-22-2020, 07:27 AM
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But the seat doesn’t slide. It rotates. So 2 inches at the top of the seat is nearly nothing at the bottom right?
  #197  
Old 02-22-2020, 08:08 AM
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But the seat doesn’t slide. It rotates. So 2 inches at the top of the seat is nearly nothing at the bottom right?
Same is true for the bottom left.
  #198  
Old 02-22-2020, 08:36 AM
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It's simple. A two-inch recline (standard on the major airlines now except Delta, and they're planning to join the others) makes very little difference to the person in the seat. It's simply too slight an angle.
This is a self-serving claim that is simply not true for everyone. It makes no difference to you. For me (and other people in this thread), even a couple of inches makes a significant difference in whether I'm able to sleep comfortably. I don't care on a short flight, but I would avoid any airline that abolished recline altogether on long haul flights.

If it really makes no difference to the person reclining, why does this problem exist? Do you really believe that everyone who wants to recline is just deliberately being a jerk for no reason?

Last edited by Riemann; 02-22-2020 at 08:40 AM.
  #199  
Old 02-22-2020, 09:37 AM
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10 inches, front edge of seat to back edge of seat in front. Whew! Tight fit! Subtract the 2 inches of recline from the seat in front, and you're down to a mere 8", or 20% of that small space.

No wonder people get testy.
They would be getting testy based on two mathematical errors in that statement then.

This would be 80% of that space, not 20%, and would only be true if he seat was sliding backwards two inches and not reclining two inches from the top. Trigonometry tells us that the two inches at the top translates into much less than two inches at the knee.
  #200  
Old 02-22-2020, 08:29 PM
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This debate perplexes me.

1. Airplane seats recline. Every person in every reclining seat has a "right" to recline (subject to safety regs, etc.)
In the same way that every the same way that every customer, student, and worker has the "right" to call people names and use profane language (subject to safety regs, etc.).

That's why part of the conversation is about politeness.
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