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Old 02-18-2020, 04:02 PM
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Surely the mass of humanity is more "awful" now than it was before "The Great Flood"


Whatever those folks (except for Noah) were doing that inspired God to "wipe the slate clean" must've paled in its degree of badness as compared our current state of horribleness. No? Well, what the heck is he/ she waiting for? Can't find a "Noah" this time?
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Old 02-18-2020, 04:27 PM
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He made a rainbow promise that he wouldn't do it again...
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Old 02-18-2020, 04:34 PM
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Nope; I've every confidence that humanity is far better in almost every respect than it ever has been. People are better educated, healthier, better fed, longer-lived, more open-minded and less prone to violence than ever in the history of the world.
On the other hand the flood situation here in York is pretty alarming.
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Old 02-18-2020, 04:43 PM
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Well, what the heck is he/ she waiting for?
Existence?
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Old 02-18-2020, 05:20 PM
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He made a rainbow promise that he wouldn't do it again...
Yes, but that was only a promise that there would be no more destruction by water. The next such (indeed, greater) destruction will be by fire.
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Old 02-18-2020, 05:23 PM
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To answer the OP, the Flood was a one-time event; I don't think it's like there is a critical mass of evilness that, once it is reached, prompts God to do a cleansing. It is true that in the End Times (such as shown in Revelations, etc.) that ultimately everyone will die or be Raptured but that isn't Flood 2.0, it's more "The End Times are the end" - at least, as I understand it.
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Old 02-18-2020, 05:50 PM
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Wasn't the flood just a gigantic myth based on the fact that the black sea flooded and all the cultures near the area invented a flood mythology?

Either way, as others have said humans are better now than they've ever been.

Compare the rates of child abuse, torture, starvation, disease, charity, etc. from thousands of years ago to now, there is no comparison.
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Old 02-18-2020, 06:11 PM
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Wasn't the flood just a gigantic myth based on the fact that the black sea flooded and all the cultures near the area invented a flood mythology?

Either way, as others have said humans are better now than they've ever been.

Compare the rates of child abuse, torture, starvation, disease, charity, etc. from thousands of years ago to now, there is no comparison.


How exactly can I compare those rates? And why would God have punished people for starving and having diseases?


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Old 02-18-2020, 06:31 PM
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Whatever those folks (except for Noah) were doing that inspired God to "wipe the slate clean" must've paled in its degree of badness as compared our current state of horribleness. No? Well, what the heck is he/ she waiting for? Can't find a "Noah" this time?
Yeah...."they" engaged in regular human sacrifice and Trump said some mean things on Twitter. They regularly had generational slavery and burnt entire cities down cause God told them too (wait, that was POST NOAH).....while in our time some professor was fired for misgendering. MONSTER.

Talk about your Greatest Generation logical fallacy.
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Old 02-18-2020, 06:45 PM
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No? Well, what the heck is he/ she waiting for? Can't find a "Noah" this time?
Presumably the events described in the Book of Revelations to unfold?
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Old 02-18-2020, 06:48 PM
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Was “human sacrifice” specifically mentioned by God as a reason for the flood? I’ve read about all the “wickedness” and vaguely alluded to “violence” as being a motivation (and “sin” in general) but all-in-all we’re pretty darn sinful nowadays. And pretty violent in a modern sense.


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Old 02-18-2020, 08:01 PM
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Wasn't the flood just a gigantic myth based on the fact that the black sea flooded and all the cultures near the area invented a flood mythology?
Or else it is just based on one of very large regular floods that every civilization encounters every few hundred years, which then made its way in the folk lore. "You think this flood is bad well let me tell you a story about a real flood"

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Yes, but that was only a promise that there would be no more destruction by water. The next such (indeed, greater) destruction will be by fire.
Yeah, you need to read the fine print.
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Old 02-18-2020, 08:25 PM
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Or else it is just based on one of very large regular floods that every civilization encounters every few hundred years, which then made its way in the folk lore. "You think this flood is bad well let me tell you a story about a real flood"
Many years ago someone posted a compendium of flood legends on talk.origins. It was fascinating. (I think there were over 50, maybe 100). Many had the survivors landing, the last people on earth, and then some more people came over the hill.
The ancients were not very logically consistent.
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Old 02-18-2020, 08:27 PM
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Trump, the energy companies, and the other climate change denying scum are doing a good job preparing for a new inundation without the need for more rain.
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Old 02-18-2020, 08:32 PM
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Yeah...."they" engaged in regular human sacrifice and Trump said some mean things on Twitter. They regularly had generational slavery and burnt entire cities down cause God told them too (wait, that was POST NOAH).....while in our time some professor was fired for misgendering. MONSTER.

Talk about your Greatest Generation logical fallacy.
In Genesis the problem seems to be more the sons of God shtupping mortals. Child sacrifice is not mentioned. Given that when God told Abraham to sacrifice Isaac Abraham knew what he was talking about, I'd think the practice continued after the flood.
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Old 02-18-2020, 10:51 PM
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As I recall from reading Genesis, Noah was kind of a dick. So were Lot and Jacob. God's standard for finding favor might not square with yours or mine.
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Old 02-19-2020, 12:06 AM
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We are much, much, much better. The scariest part in modern times was the nuclear standoffs, but even in the handful of years before the Soviets got their bomb, it's still a wonder the US didn't use it again.

Quite frankly, despite the horrors of the Holocaust and other events of the period, it's hardly out of the ordinary, except that higher population means higher death rate.

Here's something an ancient guy was proud of. It wasn't propaganda to turn people against him.
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Originally Posted by Ashurnasirpal II
Their men young and old I took prisoners. Of some I cut off their feet and hands; of others I cut off the ears noses and lips; of the young men's ears I made a heap; of the old men's heads I made a minaret. I exposed their heads as a trophy in front of their city. The male children and the female children I burned in flames; the city I destroyed, and consumed with fire.
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Old 02-19-2020, 12:27 AM
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Nope; I've every confidence that humanity is far better in almost every respect than it ever has been. People are better educated, healthier, better fed, longer-lived, more open-minded and less prone to violence than ever in the history of the world.
I have no doubt you have volumes of well researched data for the prebiblical era so I’m sure your every confidence is well founded.

Mind you, people for good or ill, are restricted by the technology of their times.

And hey, if someone subscribes to the belief that man marches towards betterment as a matter of course, was a flood necessary?
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Old 02-19-2020, 02:05 AM
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In the Ethiopian bible, there is the book of Enoch, wherein the pre-flood people include half-human giant cannibals. If so, that doesn't seem to be something that has been repeated.
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Old 02-19-2020, 07:25 AM
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Wasn't the flood just a gigantic myth based on the fact that the black sea flooded and all the cultures near the area invented a flood mythology?

Either way, as others have said humans are better now than they've ever been.

Compare the rates of child abuse, torture, starvation, disease, charity, etc. from thousands of years ago to now, there is no comparison.
What's the earliest documented instance of an evil human? IIRC, none of the characters in Iliad or Odyssey were presented as evil. Setting aside war, and sacrifice — which was "religious", not "evil" — do you have a cite for child abuse or torture during the Neolithic?


BTW, while the Black Sea flooding was a major event (What's the latest news from archaeologists?), I'd heard there were too many major floods in the Near East (albeit none as colossal as the Black Sea's) to be confident that any single flood led to the myth.
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Old 02-19-2020, 07:49 AM
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Yes, but that was only a promise that there would be no more destruction by water. The next such (indeed, greater) destruction will be by fire.
Some say the world will end in fire,
. . . . Some say in ice.
From what I've tasted of desire
I hold with those who favor fire.
. . . . But if it had to perish twice,
I think I know enough of hate
. . . . To know that for destruction ice
Is also great,
. . . . And would suffice.
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Old 02-19-2020, 08:09 AM
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I have no doubt you have volumes of well researched data for the prebiblical era so I’m sure your every confidence is well founded.
Steven Pinker, in his bestselling book The Better Angels of Our Nature, uses archeological and historical evidence to show that rates of violence have steadily declined over the course of human history and are now at the lowest levels ever, despite our media-fueled perceptions to the contrary. This article looks at his arguments and those of some of his critics, and concludes that although not perfect, Pinker's case is pretty solid.
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Old 02-19-2020, 09:14 AM
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What's the earliest documented instance of an evil human?
Other than Adam and Eve's original sin, probably Cain, the first reported murderer.
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Old 02-19-2020, 09:21 AM
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I have no doubt you have volumes of well researched data for the prebiblical era so I’m sure your every confidence is well founded.
Easy to be snarky when you're fed, hydrated, not drafted into slavery or dead from whatever plague was en vogue at the time.
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Old 02-19-2020, 09:32 AM
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Whatever those folks (except for Noah) were doing that inspired God to "wipe the slate clean" must've paled in its degree of badness as compared our current state of horribleness. No?
No, of course not. I know plenty of good people. We are nowhere close to a situation where "every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time."
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Old 02-19-2020, 09:33 AM
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God's definition of right and wrong doesn't seem to match up with the typical human's. I mean, think of all the oblivious heathens that had no clue you shouldn't work on the Sabbath, wear mixed fabrics, eat pork, etc. Mass genocide is generally looked down upon by humans as well.
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Old 02-19-2020, 10:02 AM
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Easy to be snarky when you're fed, hydrated, not drafted into slavery or dead from whatever plague was en vogue at the time.
Ddamn; that post sucks. It is so far off the mark...

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Old 02-19-2020, 10:10 AM
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think of all the oblivious heathens that had no clue you shouldn't work on the Sabbath, wear mixed fabrics, eat pork, etc.
Those restrictions only applied to the Israelites.

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God's definition of right and wrong doesn't seem to match up with the typical human's.
It's not like we have a veto over God or that He has to be accountable to us.
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Old 02-19-2020, 10:17 AM
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Surely the mass of humanity is more "awful" now than it was before "The Great Flood"


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No, of course not. I know plenty of good people. We are nowhere close to a situation where "every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time."


Do you imagine a world existed where Noah (and some close family members) were the only “good people” worth saving?


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Old 02-19-2020, 10:54 AM
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Do you imagine a world existed where Noah (and some close family members) were the only “good people” worth saving?
If you take the story literally, then yes, it explicitly says so.

If you don't take it literally, then what are we comparing our current world to, anyway?
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Old 02-19-2020, 11:47 AM
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Ddamn; that post sucks. It is so far off the mark...
Why do you say that? Surely, these are the most peaceful, most disesase- and famine-free and least violent times for humans in recorded history. I haven't read Better Angels of Our Nature, but I've read lots by him and he makes a good case for this in other venues.

Maybe things were better in our hunter-gatherer stage? Doubtful, but maybe when there are only a few thousand modern humans, disease was less of a factor?
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Old 02-19-2020, 12:58 PM
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As others have noted, the question is complicated by changes in what is considered "awful". There was more slavery back then, but since the Bible contains advice to slaves on how to be good slaves, I would assume that God didn't feel as bad about slavery as he (presumably) does today. There was more human sacrifice than there is today, but God seemed to sometimes like that.

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Can't find a "Noah" this time?
There's a joke about Diogenes going out searching for an honest man today. Not only was his search unsuccessful, but someone stole his lantern.
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Old 02-19-2020, 01:56 PM
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Why do you say that? Surely, these are the most peaceful, most disesase- and famine-free and least violent times for humans in recorded history. I haven't read Better Angels of Our Nature, but I've read lots by him and he makes a good case for this in other venues.

Maybe things were better in our hunter-gatherer stage? Doubtful, but maybe when there are only a few thousand modern humans, disease was less of a factor?
This and other posts mention disease. I'll take for granted that there was plenty of horrible diseases in pre-flood days why would that be even a small part of God deciding to drown most everybody (and every thing)?

And does being more disease and famine free somehow equate to being less sinful?
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Old 02-19-2020, 03:46 PM
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This and other posts mention disease. I'll take for granted that there was plenty of horrible diseases in pre-flood days why would that be even a small part of God deciding to drown most everybody (and every thing)?

And does being more disease and famine free somehow equate to being less sinful?
OK, take disease out of it. I don't think there's any question that rape, murder, war, violent crimes were more prevalent at practically every time in the past compared to today.

Now, less sinful? No idea, since I'm not a theologian. My limited understanding of the bible leads me to think that rape, murder, war, and slavery were not really sins as long as they were being done outside of the tribe. I would consider it a sin to kill all the men from a town you just fought and enslave or rape the women, but I'm pretty sure that's encouraged in at least some parts of the bible.
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Old 02-19-2020, 04:04 PM
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My limited understanding of the bible leads me to think that rape, murder, war, and slavery were not really sins as long as they were being done outside of the tribe. I would consider it a sin to kill all the men from a town you just fought and enslave or rape the women, but I'm pretty sure that's encouraged in at least some parts of the bible.
So it is not that people have improved (they have) but that God is less awful now than in antediluvial times? God seems to have been a psychopathic bastard in those days; nowadays he seems to have mellowed somewhat.

Either way, the question posed by the OP seems to be answered; people are better behaved now than in the past, and God isn't such a jerk. It's a win-win.
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Old 02-19-2020, 04:20 PM
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My limited understanding of the bible leads me to think that rape, murder, war, and slavery were not really sins as long as they were being done outside of the tribe. I would consider it a sin to kill all the men from a town you just fought and enslave or rape the women, but I'm pretty sure that's encouraged in at least some parts of the bible.

Deuteronomy 21: God gave Israelite soldiers to take captive enemy women as their wives

I Samuel 15: God commanded the genocide of the Amalekites

But also, the Israelites were commanded: "You must not exploit a foreigner, for you were foreigners in Egypt." And when harvesting grain, they were ordered to leave some for foreigners and the poor to gather.

In addition, "When a foreigner resides with you in your land, you must not oppress him. You must treat the foreigner living among you as native-born and love him as yourself, for you were foreigners in the land of Egypt. I am the LORD your God."
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Old 02-19-2020, 07:24 PM
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Doesn't the Hebraic bible specifically say that "there were giants among men at that time", the offspring of angels -- the Nephalim and women they found fair? I believe the decision by God to destroy the civilizations of the Earth comes shortly after this is announced.

Wait a minute, isn't that exactly what the Homeric myths have Zeus say as his reason for the Trojan War -- to remove his offspring from the human gene pool?

Seriously, are all bible stories badly copied myths?
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Old 02-19-2020, 07:27 PM
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Doesn't the Hebraic bible specifically say that "there were giants among men at that time", the offspring of angels -- the Nephalim and women they found fair? I believe the decision by God to destroy the civilizations of the Earth comes shortly after this is announced.

Wait a minute, isn't that exactly what the Homeric myths have Zeus say as his reason for the Trojan War -- to remove his offspring from the human gene pool?

Seriously, are all bible stories badly copied myths?
See post #15. Just an editing error. Whoever put the separate myths together forgot to remove that old one which was no longer operative.

And so God sent his only sons - to save you from your virginity!
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Old 02-20-2020, 01:19 PM
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Wasn't the flood just a gigantic myth based on the fact that the black sea flooded and all the cultures near the area invented a flood mythology?
I think it's more that all early civilizations were based near bodies of water that flooded occasionally, making them well acquainted with the phenomenon, than that any particular flood is the basis for all the different "great flood" myths.
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Old 02-20-2020, 01:34 PM
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Doesn't the Hebraic bible specifically say that "there were giants among men at that time", the offspring of angels -- the Nephalim and women they found fair? I believe the decision by God to destroy the civilizations of the Earth comes shortly after this is announced.
The whole line is "The Nephilim were in the earth in those days". What exactly Nephelim were is not mentioned anywhere in the five books of Moses. It is usually translated into English as "Giants".

There is a different passage that says 'The sons of Heaven fell for the daughters of men" Whether this means angels (As mentioned the apocryphal Book Of Enoch posits a group of angels known as Watchers or Grigori. They were assigned to teach and guide humanity but fell, had sex with human women and begat the Nephilim) having sex with human women or simply priests, scholars and scribes neglecting their duties for fleshy pleasures is open to debate.


While We're On The Subject Of Biblical Destruction

According to the Talmud, the sin of Sodom and Gammorah was NOT homosexuality. There are folk stories going back milennia about how cruel and selfish the people of the twin cities were. You don't get 'the folks in Sodom were so gay that . . .' until Paul shows up.
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Old 02-21-2020, 05:21 AM
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What's the earliest documented instance of an evil human? IIRC, none of the characters in Iliad or Odyssey were presented as evil. Setting aside war, and sacrifice — which was "religious", not "evil" — do you have a cite for child abuse or torture during the Neolithic?
My question was serious. Obviously there was killing long ago, but it was work in brutish times, in pursuit of straightforward political and economic goals. It wasn't "evil" like Vlad the Impaler, or Charles Manson.

So who IS the earliest recorded "evil" human? Fictional characters are allowed, but I'm not sure Cain the First Murderer qualifies as truly "evil."
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Old 02-21-2020, 07:47 AM
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The whole line is "The Nephilim were in the earth in those days". What exactly Nephelim were is not mentioned anywhere in the five books of Moses. It is usually translated into English as "Giants".
Staff Report: In the Bible, who were the "giant sons of God"?
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