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  #51  
Old 10-17-2010, 08:40 AM
Freudian Slit Freudian Slit is offline
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Originally Posted by Nametag View Post
What coaches SHOULD be doing is coaching -- telling kids HOW to do what they don't know how to do -- but they're not really any good at that.
Unless the oft used words, "HUSTLE, PEOPLE!" count for something.
  #52  
Old 10-17-2010, 10:17 AM
C3 C3 is offline
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My son is 7 and has been playing organized team sports for a couple years now and the kids definitely keep score, even if the adults don't. He's playing football this season and the score is kept (and they'll have playoffs and a championship game). The kids know each team's record for the season and how they did last year. Almost everyone does fine with this, except for a couple kids who get really upset when they lose. There is a direct correlation between these kids and their parents' behavior. The one boy that gets especially upset has the dad that's at every practice yelling at his son from the sidelines to "kill him!" and "knock him out!"

I will say that football has been one of the better experiences for my son, but mostly because his coaches demand much more of the kids than the t-ball or basketball coaches do. They work a lot harder, are expected to show much more respect to the coaches and officials (yes, sir...no, sir), and they frankly get yelled at a lot more. Instead of purely positive feedback, they're told when they're doing something incorrectly and they're expected to be paying attention at all times. Screwing around gets you laps or push-ups. My son has learned a ton and he's actually enjoying it much more than he does the other sports.
  #53  
Old 10-17-2010, 10:59 AM
Cubsfan Cubsfan is offline
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I will say that football has been one of the better experiences for my son, but mostly because his coaches demand much more of the kids than the t-ball or basketball coaches do. They work a lot harder, are expected to show much more respect to the coaches and officials (yes, sir...no, sir), and they frankly get yelled at a lot more. Instead of purely positive feedback, they're told when they're doing something incorrectly and they're expected to be paying attention at all times. Screwing around gets you laps or push-ups. My son has learned a ton and he's actually enjoying it much more than he does the other sports.
This is what I expect from organized team sports. I see nothing wrong with this.
  #54  
Old 10-17-2010, 11:41 AM
Nametag Nametag is offline
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By schoolyard rules and evil kid logic, it's legitimate. They never gave a crap what I thought then and I doubt kids would give a crap what I think now.
  #55  
Old 10-17-2010, 11:59 AM
What Exit? What Exit? is offline
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Billy Martin speaks for me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Olk8hnGrQXU

1 minute interview snip.

But I think they should keep score from as early as the kids understand what keeping score means. They should be trying to win. I don't mean sliding into second cleats high but they should be trying to win.
  #56  
Old 10-17-2010, 06:45 PM
sisu sisu is offline
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I am a coach of junior basketball both at a local and representative level. We keep score from day 1 and I think that we should always keep score. What a coach and parent needs to do is point out what their kid did in a positive way. As a coach I am disgusted by parents as they are the ones who ruin it.

Kids keep score.
  #57  
Old 10-17-2010, 07:33 PM
Spud Spud is offline
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Originally Posted by Mach Tuck View Post
Middle school generally goes up to grades 8 or 9, depending on where you are in the country. Youth sports (which I consider anything up through middle school) are about learning. High school sports are more competitive. My view was that the Junior Varsity's squad was to support Varsity. Varsity's job was to be competitive and hopefully win. To do that, you need to keep score.
You have got to be kidding me. My daughter is a Sophomore which is grade 10. You are saying that they should not have been keeping score in her soccer games until a year or two ago. Earlier tonight she was on the phone with the coach from a division 1 school in Baltimore (hint... it has a great hospital attached) discussing her visit there later this week. She has his cell number because she can contact him but he can't contact her at this age. There is a very good chance that she will get a terrific education at a fraction of the normal cost. This is one of several universities that has expressed interest in having her play for them. Do you really think this would happen if they didn't keep score? By the way... by the time she was 7 she had been playing for 3 years and was well aware of the difference between winning and losing.

My son as well is in 8th grade... his team is in the top 10 in the nation. They didn't get there by not keeping score. Oh, and your comment that High School sports are more competitive made me laugh. College coaches don't give a crap about your High School... it is all about your club play, which typically starts at 8.
  #58  
Old 10-17-2010, 09:40 PM
Llama Llogophile Llama Llogophile is offline
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You have got to be kidding me. My daughter is a Sophomore which is grade 10. You are saying that they should not have been keeping score in her soccer games until a year or two ago.
No, I said in post #7 that there's nothing wrong with modifying rules when necessary to encourage learning. I'm open to that including not keeping score. I also said it's fine to keep score when appropriate. As others have pointed out, it largely depends on the situation, goals of the league/team, coaching quality, etc.

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There is a very good chance that she will get a terrific education at a fraction of the normal cost.
I sincerely hope that's true, because it's relatively rare by percentage of high school athletes. Pretty low numbers. Which means it's little more than a pipe dream for most kids - even good players from good programs. Low enough that an NCAA official in my second cite says:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Lennon, the NCAA’s vice president of membership services
“We stress to parents and students everywhere that you should participate in athletics for the values and benefits that sports can give, not because you want a scholarship"...
So I'm glad for your daughter, but most of the kids served by athletic programs have different needs. With that in mind...

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Originally Posted by Spud View Post
Do you really think this would happen if they didn't keep score? By the way... by the time she was 7 she had been playing for 3 years and was well aware of the difference between winning and losing.
Two answers:

1. Very possibly. If she really has the chops, I don't think a little game modification is going to hold her back too much. Again, we're talking about lower levels of play for learning purposes, not JV or Varsity.

2. The point isn't necessarily to produce legions of kids who are going to play D1. Very few will no matter what the coaching methods. If you feel she has the knack for it - great - find a league that suits your needs. But if the rest of the team needs different approaches to encourage learning, I have no problem with that.
  #59  
Old 10-17-2010, 10:22 PM
CaveMike CaveMike is offline
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My son is 7 and plays soccer in the local rec league. He sucks as does misery of the rest of his team. They don't pay attention and screw around most of the time while other teams score all over them. There are some teams that play actual soccer instead of fucking around. This league still doesn't keep formal score and teams are never declared winner. Records aren't kept and everyone gets a trophy. I.think this is unfair to the teams that actually play.the.game to learn and win.

When I was his age playing minor league baseball we kept score and win loss records. We got killed every week and we all survived. My coach could yell at us to stop fucking around and pull kids that wouldn't listen. Coaches can't yell anymore or sit a kid.
What a bunch of blame-the-system whining. Your kids' team screws around so it must be the league's fault that it doesn't keep score? Why do the other teams in the league not have this problem? Of course, it has to be someone else's fault and their responsibility.

The real issue is that your son ended up on a team with the wrong mix of kids, parents, and coaches. There wasn't a critical mass of parents that took the season seriously. As a result, the kids spent the season goofing off and not learning anything. It sucks, but it happens and the best recourse is to step up and coach next year. Or if you are not going to coach, then find out who is coaching and request one of them on the sign-up form.

And all this whining posters are doing about leagues not keeping score and 'pussifying' sports is a bunch of over-emotional, chicken-little BS. As other posters have stated, the kids know the score. They know who the best players are, they vote for them for the All-Star league, they know which ones are in the travel leagues, they know which ones are scorning the runs, goals, and baskets. They are learning lessons about competition just like we did as kids. I've watched my kids in countless games and the kids always knew the score. They were always disappointed when they lost and excited when they won. They know the reality even if someone doesn't write it down and post it on a website.

Every kid gets a trophy at the end of the year? So what? The kids know that they all get one and that it worth exactly that -- no more. They know which teams were the best and who played the hardest. All that's happened is that the trophy is de-valued. Who cares?

I think the real reason scores are not kept has nothing to do with the kids. It has to do with the parents and the coaches. The more emphasis the league puts on scoring, the more likely a coach and parents will put together a team of the best players. Even in my kids' un-scored leagues, there are parents and coaches that work out elaborate schemes to game the system and get all of their kids on the same team. If Billy's sign-up forms asks for Bobby and Billy's twin asks for Tommy and the assistant coach's kids asks for... And that type of strategy is counter-productive to the entire experience. The good kids don't get real competition and the rest of the kids are so dominated they don't have a chance to learn. This type of imbalance isn't a good reflection of sports competition later in life (except maybe the Yankees?)

I never understood all of the emotional complaining about leagues that don't keep score. I'd like to hear a non-emotional, factual reason why it matters because my personal experience doesn't support the position.
  #60  
Old 10-17-2010, 10:27 PM
Spud Spud is offline
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I sincerely hope that's true, because it's relatively rare by percentage of high school athletes. Pretty low numbers. Which means it's little more than a pipe dream for most kids - even good players from good programs.
I fully agree, and know that my kid is the exception and not the norm. My point though is that there are some kids who do hit this level, and not keeping score just isn't realistic. Even at a young age when they aren't supposed to be keeping score... the kids know the score.

I'll briefly share how I made her cry in second grade when after winning a local rec championship she mentioned at dinner something about "when I play in college" and I tried my best to use logic to tell her how bad the odds are. All these years later I still feel like an asshole for that moment, and I'm pretty sure she has pushed herself just to prove me wrong on that night.

Since Dopers seem to be skeptical, I'll just add that she has a 4.35 GPA so it will likely be a combination of athletic and academic money.
  #61  
Old 10-17-2010, 10:43 PM
PennyGaunjworth_of_chicago PennyGaunjworth_of_chicago is offline
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there was score kept in every sport that i played, ever. and im talking my whole life.
i think i turned out ok.
who the hell feels so badly about themselves and is that poor of a sport that they must take it upon themselves to make sure the children dont keep score or feel that they actually accomplished something?
scoring teaches kids about life. it teaches them that they will win and lose in life. what happens when they fail at something in their life and they cant handle it?
  #62  
Old 10-17-2010, 10:47 PM
C3 C3 is offline
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I'll briefly share how I made her cry in second grade when after winning a local rec championship she mentioned at dinner something about "when I play in college" and I tried my best to use logic to tell her how bad the odds are. All these years later I still feel like an asshole for that moment, and I'm pretty sure she has pushed herself just to prove me wrong on that night.
Cool! Maybe this will work for us, too! My second-grader is dreaming of playing football for NC State one day (bless his heart*). Although he loves sports and works very hard to improve, he seems like he's going to be more naturally talented at the academic stuff. I was trying to explain to him that he may one day get an athletic scholarship, but he should work really hard in school because an academic scholarship would probably be the more attainable goal for him. I'm perfectly willing to feel like an asshole!




*Go Terps!
  #63  
Old 10-17-2010, 11:40 PM
etv78 etv78 is offline
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Cool! Maybe this will work for us, too! My second-grader is dreaming of playing football for NC State one day (bless his heart*). Although he loves sports and works very hard to improve, he seems like he's going to be more naturally talented at the academic stuff. I was trying to explain to him that he may one day get an athletic scholarship, but he should work really hard in school because an academic scholarship would probably be the more attainable goal for him. I'm perfectly willing to feel like an asshole!




*Go Terps!
I assume you know NC St is the Wolfpack.
  #64  
Old 10-18-2010, 12:41 AM
Cyberhwk Cyberhwk is offline
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Do you really think this would happen if they didn't keep score?
Absolutely. When sports teams are looking for players they look for physical ability and potential, talent, and the ability to learn and be coached. They care very little about your stats at the previous level, nevertheless the score of your games as a kid.
  #65  
Old 10-18-2010, 06:50 AM
C3 C3 is offline
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I assume you know NC St is the Wolfpack.
Uh, yeah, that's why I said "bless his heart" (Southernism for "poor, deluded little thing"). I went to Maryland.
  #66  
Old 10-18-2010, 08:50 AM
Spud Spud is offline
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Absolutely. When sports teams are looking for players they look for physical ability and potential, talent, and the ability to learn and be coached. They care very little about your stats at the previous level, nevertheless the score of your games as a kid.
Absolutely not. Sure, they don't care that you beat Mt. Pilot 4-3... but they do care that you won the prestigious tournament or that you won the state and or regional championship. You can't do those things without keeping score. There are thousands of teams out there and the coaches don't have time to look at all of them to see and evaluate who has the physical ability and potential talent. They need something to narrow it down, and this is the way they do it.

In a couple of weeks we are driving to the next state to play some "friendlies." This is not a tournament, and doesn't really count in the record books. We are playing top teams in several surrounding states and there will be at least a dozen college coaches in attendance. This would not happen if we (and the other teams) didn't have a proven track record of winning.
  #67  
Old 10-18-2010, 11:57 AM
Spud Spud is offline
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Cool! Maybe this will work for us, too! My second-grader is dreaming of playing football for NC State one day (bless his heart*). Although he loves sports and works very hard to improve, he seems like he's going to be more naturally talented at the academic stuff. I was trying to explain to him that he may one day get an athletic scholarship, but he should work really hard in school because an academic scholarship would probably be the more attainable goal for him. I'm perfectly willing to feel like an asshole!




*Go Terps!
I like to think that she pushes herself on the athletic field to prove me wrong... and pushes herself in the classroom in case I wasn't. So, yeah I'm taking credit for it all
  #68  
Old 10-18-2010, 12:29 PM
Omar Little Omar Little is offline
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cubsfan where do you live, that there's not a competitive soccer league for 7 year olds? Every city I've lived in has non-competitive leagues and competitive leagues. Quit bitching about the league your son is in and put him in one where they keep score. Or are you just being pussified by the kid's mom, who makes the rules in your family?
  #69  
Old 10-18-2010, 12:41 PM
Frylock Frylock is offline
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[QUOTE=Cubsfan;13031656]When I was his age playing minor league baseball we kept score and win loss records.[quote]

This is great.

Quote:
We got killed every week and we all survived.

This is fine.

Quote:
My coach could yell at us to stop fucking around and pull kids that wouldn't listen.
This is foolish.
  #70  
Old 10-18-2010, 12:58 PM
C3 C3 is offline
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Originally Posted by Wilbo523 View Post
Or are you just being pussified by the kid's mom, who makes the rules in your family?
Can we quit with the blaming women for teams that don't keep score? In my experience, this is done not so the mommies can protect their little babies, but so the kids can play without having (some of) the adults turn into complete maniacs. I'm female and I'm as open to healthy competition as any man I know, as were most of the girls and women I've ever played sports with (or competed against in music or academics). Being a girl doesn't make you a wuss and I know plenty of men who aren't comfortable with competitive activities.


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This is foolish.
Why is it foolish to expect kids to pay attention when they're at practice? If they're going to take part in an activity (a voluntary one!), they should be taking part in the activity. If my son was at practice and not paying attention to the coach or being disruptive, I would expect the coach to have some stern words with him and, if that didn't happen, he would be hearing those stern words from me. If he didn't want to be there, we would go home. I'm not going to waste my time (and usually, money!) and the rest of the team's time with a child who would rather be doing something else. Part of the benefit of organized sports is to teach a child how to be respectful of coaches and teammates. Screwing around when you're supposed to be paying attention and learning is not respectful.
  #71  
Old 10-18-2010, 01:05 PM
overlyverbose overlyverbose is offline
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If you are old enough to play a game, you should be old enough to know if you won or lost. Otherwise, why even have a goal, goalees, or even an opposing team?

Winning or losing, it ain't like a 5YO gets hung up on this kind of thing unless someone else gets them to care.

SSG (P) Schwartz
This sums up my feelings on the matter. Even my four-year old gets that some people win and some people lose when playing games. There's no reason not to keep score.
  #72  
Old 10-18-2010, 01:17 PM
Algher Algher is online now
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Here is your problem - you are playing in a recreation league. If you want to keep score, join a club. I have a 7 year old playing rec. Scores are not recorded, but they are certainly tracked during the match.

AYSO is the largest recreation soccer leage, and they operate under the following principles:
Quote:
Everyone Plays
Our program's goal is for kids to play soccer-so we mandate that every player on every team must play at least half of every game, and no player can play an entire game unless every other player has played at least three quarters

Balanced Teams
Each year we form new teams as evenly balanced as possible-because it is fair and more fun when teams of equal ability play.

Open Registration
Our program is open to all children between 4 and 19 years of age who want to register and play soccer. Interest and enthusiasm are the only criteria for playing.

Positive Coaching
Encouragement of player effort provides for greater enjoyment by the players and ultimately leads to better-skilled and better-motivated players.

Good Sportsmanship
We strive to create a positive environment based on mutual respect rather than a win-at-all-costs attitude, and our program is designed to instill good sportsmanship in every facet of AYSO.
Let add in another rule. AYSO REQUIRES that every kid plays half of the game. In my region, we make it 3 out of 4 quarters. You are also not supposed to just park a kid in the same position all game (unless the kid personally requests it). So there are a ton of rules in place that are counter to the "learn by losing" attitude I am picking up from some posters here.

In our region, we start tracking scores and standings at the U10 level (8 and 9 year olds). That is also when we eliminate neighborhood teams, and instead have evaluations and an attempt at balanced teams. Our U8 players don't keep standings, but they know who won and who lost up until the point that they get a snack.

Now, if I wanted to win every game, I would have to coach my little kid's match like I coach my U17 club team. That means I bench the poorer players. By bench I mean that they don't play at all. That means if we lose (or if we don't win by enough points), my guys are running laps at the end of the game. They will also be harassed at our 3 mandatory practices during the following week. However - this is highly competitive club soccer where parents are paying $2,000 to play on the team and we are in tournaments where college and professional scouts are watching.

We don't need that for rec soccer.
  #73  
Old 10-18-2010, 01:18 PM
Omar Little Omar Little is offline
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Can we quit with the blaming women for teams that don't keep score?
Well since it's obvious that Cubsfan wishes his kid played in league that kept score it must either be the kid's Mom or his other Dad that's got him in this non-scoring league.
  #74  
Old 10-18-2010, 01:31 PM
Freudian Slit Freudian Slit is offline
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Why is it foolish to expect kids to pay attention when they're at practice? If they're going to take part in an activity (a voluntary one!), they should be taking part in the activity. If my son was at practice and not paying attention to the coach or being disruptive, I would expect the coach to have some stern words with him and, if that didn't happen, he would be hearing those stern words from me. If he didn't want to be there, we would go home. I'm not going to waste my time (and usually, money!) and the rest of the team's time with a child who would rather be doing something else. Part of the benefit of organized sports is to teach a child how to be respectful of coaches and teammates. Screwing around when you're supposed to be paying attention and learning is not respectful.
Screaming at kids to not "fuck around" doesn't sound like a great idea, and it doesn't sound like the coach has a good grasp of managing the kids if he has to resort to yelling profanity at them.
  #75  
Old 10-18-2010, 01:37 PM
Frylock Frylock is offline
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Why is it foolish to expect kids to pay attention when they're at practice? If they're going to take part in an activity (a voluntary one!), they should be taking part in the activity. If my son was at practice and not paying attention to the coach or being disruptive, I would expect the coach to have some stern words with him and, if that didn't happen, he would be hearing those stern words from me. If he didn't want to be there, we would go home. I'm not going to waste my time (and usually, money!) and the rest of the team's time with a child who would rather be doing something else. Part of the benefit of organized sports is to teach a child how to be respectful of coaches and teammates. Screwing around when you're supposed to be paying attention and learning is not respectful.
Actually, I just misread you. So never mind!
  #76  
Old 10-18-2010, 01:38 PM
C3 C3 is offline
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Screaming at kids to not "fuck around" doesn't sound like a great idea, and it doesn't sound like the coach has a good grasp of managing the kids if he has to resort to yelling profanity at them.
I see what you mean - I didn't take Cubsfan's original comment to mean that the coach was literally saying, "Quit fucking around!" I thought he meant that the coach was saying that in so many words. I agree with you about the profanity, but I don't have a problem at all with the expectation that the kids shouldn't be fucking around.
  #77  
Old 10-18-2010, 01:38 PM
Frylock Frylock is offline
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Screaming at kids to not "fuck around" doesn't sound like a great idea, and it doesn't sound like the coach has a good grasp of managing the kids if he has to resort to yelling profanity at them.
That's part of what I was thinking, but I now think that he was paraphrasing the coach.

The attitude implied by the word choice in the OP is, I think, not good. But just taking him literally for what he said (assuming he's paraphrasing the coach) there's nothing provably objectionable there.
  #78  
Old 10-18-2010, 01:43 PM
C3 C3 is offline
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The attitude implied by the word choice in the OP is, I think, not good.
Eh, I don't know. When a coach has 20 seven year olds in front of him and three are picking dandelions, two are spinning in circles, and one is writing letters in the dirt, I can forgive him if the thought that goes through his mind is, "Quit fucking around!" (although I would expect him to phrase it in a more professional way).
  #79  
Old 10-18-2010, 01:52 PM
Algher Algher is online now
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Eh, I don't know. When a coach has 20 seven year olds in front of him and three are picking dandelions, two are spinning in circles, and one is writing letters in the dirt, I can forgive him if the thought that goes through his mind is, "Quit fucking around!" (although I would expect him to phrase it in a more professional way).
20 is WAY too many to coach at that level. We only carry 18 on our official roster at the U17 level.

The optimal size for U8 is a roster of 7, playing 5 v 5 in a short-sided match. Again from AYSO:
Quote:
The Players:
There will be Five per team on field; no goalkeepers. Seven maximum on roster.

Substitutions are between periods, at halftime and for injuries. The players will be seperated by girls and boys teams at all levels of play. Playing time is a minimum of two periods per game and no player should play four periods until everyone has played three. Separate girls and boys teams should be promoted at all levels of play.
http://www.soccer.org/resources/shor...uidelines.aspx
  #80  
Old 10-18-2010, 02:02 PM
C3 C3 is offline
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20 is WAY too many to coach at that level. We only carry 18 on our official roster at the U17 level.

The optimal size for U8 is a roster of 7, playing 5 v 5 in a short-sided match. Again from AYSO:

http://www.soccer.org/resources/shor...uidelines.aspx
Oh, good grief. My kid has never played soccer, so - forgive me - I was going by other team sports he has played. No need to pull out the official rulebook. There are 28 kids on my son's football team. Probably 18-20 on the t-ball team. Maybe about 12 on his basketball team. About 50 on his swim team. And my 4 year old has the recommended number of 10 in his dance class.

Regardless, I was making a lighthearted comment about the frustrations a coach may be going through when trying to wrangle any number of seven year olds. With only two short people in my home, I have certainly had the wish that they would just quit fucking around sometimes (although I don't say it out loud!). I don't think that's indicative of a problematic attitude. I think it's indicative of the fact that sometimes little kids can be frustratingly distracted.
  #81  
Old 10-18-2010, 02:39 PM
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QKid plays recreational baseball. In kindergarten and first grade, we didn't keep score. Like Mach Tuck recommends, the rules are altered to make the games about learning to play the sport. Each kid on each team bats each inning. Coaches pitch to their own teams. Everyone plays in the field each inning. Games were three innings. Obviously, in those circumstances, counting runs doesn't make much sense, as you might have a team with nine kids playing against a team with 12 kids. However, the kids did a pretty good job of keeping track amongst themselves of how many outs were recorded each inning and keeping track of who had gotten a great hit or made a good defensive play. There was no official score, but they usually knew how they measured up to the competition.

In 2nd and 3rd grade, we keep score, but everyone plays in the field and everyone is on the batting order. We play 6 innings. Starting in 4th grade, the league divides into a rec track and a travel team track, and I think both tracks follow fairly standard baseball rules.

I'm generally OK with the way things are set up in this league.

One thing to keep in mind is that most little kids aren't playing soccer or baseball or whatever because of their undying passion for competitive sports. They're playing because their parents think it's a good idea for them to learn some basic sports skills and experience being on a team. (Well, that's why QKid is playing.) Some of that might happen in PE, but there needs to be space for that in rec league teams, too.
  #82  
Old 10-18-2010, 02:45 PM
perfectparanoia perfectparanoia is offline
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You should always keep score. From day 1. There is no real reason not to and several to.

Take if you will, my daughter. She was a bad loser. A very bad loser. If we were playing a game and she was losing, she would just get up and not finish. If she was forced to finish, she would ruin the game for everyone. So, we could just not keep score and everybody wins, right?

No. She needs to learn to be (even if it is fake) a good loser. Otherwise,

1. No one will want to play with her.
2. She won't have any fun when she is losing (a great loss).

So, we kept right on playing games and working with her. Now she can root on the other team or just be happy when someone does something well even if it is not scoring. She still gets cranky sometimes but she has learned a whole lot about winning and losing and how to do so with some class and kindness.

She just turned seven, btw.

I have the sneaking suspicion that if (like her little brother) she was exposed to games and sports at an earlier age where they kept score, the idea of losing would have lost a lot of its heat. But every kid is different I suppose.
  #83  
Old 10-18-2010, 03:11 PM
lindsaybluth lindsaybluth is offline
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I agree with the modified rules Mach Tuck advocated earlier. And during practice, unless it's a real 'scrimmage', there's no need for scorekeeping at all. I actually am in awe of the posters who have kids' games where the coach actually yells at them and they all keep score, even if they don't know what's going on. Seems like there's little middle ground.
  #84  
Old 10-19-2010, 08:42 AM
CrazyCatLady CrazyCatLady is offline
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I think you should keep score around 1st grade or so, but not really emphasize it one way or the other for several years after that. By that age, they're all counting and know which number is bigger than the other--before they can do that, what meaning does a score even have? And if the kids have no idea what the score means, why bother with it? So the parents can feel like they're not "pussifying" their kindergartners? What the hell does that even mean, for a kid who's barely outgrown naps to be or not be a pussy?

Near as I can tell, emphasizing winning as the whole point of the game is great--for the kids who are already good or at least decent. It really blows for the ones who aren't, though. When the whole point of the game is to win, the kids who aren't already good can't further that goal, so they either get benched or shoved out to the outskirts of the game where they won't do too much damage to the team's chances. Being treated like a burden does not, for some reason, tend to foster passion and effort in most people, kids included.

That's not to say that kids shouldn't be exposed to the concept of winning and losing, and be trained to be gracious either way. But I think emphasizing winning as being important is counterproductive to that goal--it's the ones who make trying to win the whole point of an activity who tend to be pissiest about losing. (And, ime, gloat the most about winning.) In all honesty, that's the problem perfectparanoia was having with her daughter--she'd got the idea that because winning is sooooo much better than losing, the game was only fun or worthwhile if you were winning.
  #85  
Old 10-20-2010, 01:34 AM
sisu sisu is offline
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If you keep score it is a sport, if you don't it's a game.

So if a kid wants to play gymnastics and not compete then scoring is not needed.

If a kid wants to play basketball, how the fuck do you play without keeping a score?

i get that we wnat kids just to run around and get exercise, if this is what we want then don't get them to play a sport, let them play a game.
  #86  
Old 10-20-2010, 08:49 PM
GameHat GameHat is offline
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My earliest sport experience was being on a Tee Ball team when I was 6. They didn't keep score.

Even at that age, among my group, the general consensus was "This is bullshit. The point of the game is to score runs. Whoever has the most runs wins."

We kept score on our own. Got yelled at once by the coach when he caught us writing down runs.

I still think the better way to do it is to do like they did in Little League - if a team is behind by more than X by the Yth inning, the game is over. I don't think competitiveness is bad, but at the same time it's probably not helpful to young kids to get completely stomped and humiliated.

At different times, I was both on the stomping and stomped-upon team. Didn't damage my psyche too bad. Kids understand competition, let them play and keep score. Stop things if it gets embarrassing. I think that's a reasonable way to do things.

/speaks only for boy sports, maybe it's different for coed or girl sports. Wouldn't know.

Last edited by GameHat; 10-20-2010 at 08:50 PM.
  #87  
Old 10-21-2010, 01:46 PM
Hentor the Barbarian Hentor the Barbarian is offline
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When it comes to youth sports, it makes me very happy to learn that there are Mach Tucks in the world.

Keeping score is primarily for parents, especially parents who were themselves of middling talent and are attempting to recoup some esteem by having their child deemed relatively superior.

Personally, I think that keeping score and making sure to declare a winner and losers, as well as providing the ensigns of victory selectively, should be done primarily when there is a selection process for participation based on talent. If you’re in a league for a team sport where kids cannot be excluded from participation based on their talent level, then the point of participation really cannot be determining which team is the best. Rec leagues for children typically take all comers, and most of the time the ethic of the league is that everyone gets an equal opportunity to play. Why should you get to feel great because your child’s team beat the team that had to play more gimpy no-talent loser kids? Get your kid onto a travel team, where there is a talent-based selection process and your competition is on the whole going to be more talented, and then you can bask in your second-order, reflected glory.

Having said that, I’d say that taking note of the score even in rec league play is probably okay by 9 or 10. Early in childhood, kids don’t actually care that much about who’s winning and who’s losing. About 7 or 8 or so you start to see a proportion of kids asking coaches from time to time what the score is.

What I continue to marvel at is parents and non-parent adult who have a problem with everyone in a kids’ rec league getting a trophy. You have to seriously ask yourself why you find that problematic. Why does it diminish anyone’s experience if there are not children who go home empty handed? Do you really need another child (again, in a take-all-comers rec league) to be in a one-down position not only by pointing out that they lost, but also making sure that other kids get a physical representation of that fact too?

And I say screw this “life lessons” bullshit. If life and reality aren’t well-suited enough to teach us that the world is an unforgiving crap-fest all by themselves, there’s no need to make sure that our social constructs (like children’s rec league participation) do so. It’s kind of like saying that you should stab your child in the hand with a fork, because at some point or other they’re going to get stabbed with a fork.

I also guarantee you that there is absolutely no way in the world that you accurately recall what you thought and felt and perceived when you were six years old. The sense that you can is an illusion.
  #88  
Old 10-21-2010, 03:01 PM
Moirai Moirai is offline
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Both my kids fence sabre competetively (11 & 8 years old). Not only is score kept, but you find out immediately if you succeeded or failed, every touch. No team to fall back on, just your own performance. Touches are scored electronically, but in the case of both fencers scoring a touch on the same point, it's the ref's call who gets it.

They love it, but I'll admit it's tough sometimes.
  #89  
Old 10-21-2010, 09:58 PM
Cyberhwk Cyberhwk is offline
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Originally Posted by Spud View Post
Absolutely not. Sure, they don't care that you beat Mt. Pilot 4-3... but they do care that you won the prestigious tournament or that you won the state and or regional championship. You can't do those things without keeping score..
Not at all. I've seen recruiting sheets for professional sports. They never say a damn thing about wins and losses. It's about height, weight, reps, and 40 times. Hell, the only reason they even care what college you went to is to weigh stats and tell you apart from other people with similar names.

They don't care about records, CERTAINLY at no level lower than High School.

Last edited by Cyberhwk; 10-21-2010 at 10:00 PM.
  #90  
Old 10-22-2010, 12:13 PM
Snake Plissken Snake Plissken is offline
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Originally Posted by gonzomax View Post
keeping score does not mean the kids will be broken hearted with a loss. If they are young they will just think ,so what. Some kids are competitive and want to win everything. Many of the other catch on later. But it does not scar them for life to lose a game they barely understand how to play. If you play, keep score.
This is true as long as the kids have someone, be it coach or parent, that teaches them how to win and lose with grace.

I have 3 girls that play volleyball. One is a first team all-american in the big ten, one plays division II, and one in highschool. In the early years, they always knew what the score was, and they wanted to win. They were also taught how to win while maintaining the dignity of the opposing team. I believe this led to their ability to accept loss as well.

Its not a kid issue. Its the adults responsibility to guide the process within the rules.

Yes, watching 5th grade volleyball is painful, but the kneejerk reaction of changing the rules is a disservice to any kid that genuinely wants to learn the game and excell. Those kids will just go play club ball where they get actual instruction....and maybe learn to serve.
  #91  
Old 10-23-2010, 01:16 AM
Spud Spud is offline
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Originally Posted by Cyberhwk View Post
Not at all. I've seen recruiting sheets for professional sports. They never say a damn thing about wins and losses. It's about height, weight, reps, and 40 times. Hell, the only reason they even care what college you went to is to weigh stats and tell you apart from other people with similar names.

They don't care about records, CERTAINLY at no level lower than High School.
Really? So why when the day before yesterday when my daughter met with the head coach of a very prestigious east coast university were his first words "So, your team won the state title every year from U9 through U15... very impressive." If I remember right U9, U10, U11, U12, U13, and U14 are pre High School. The biggest thing that opens doors is winning regionals (champions of 13 states) at U13 (again pre High School).

And being all about Height... my daughter is 5'0", weight... maybe 110, reps... no idea, nobody has ever asked, and 40 time... again, nobody has ever asked. This is a kid who is being actively recruited by at least 10 universities. Short and small, but the top in 4 of the 6 categories (points, goals, assists, shots on goal) they keep stats for as a freshman on the varsity team. But you know what... they don't care so much what she did on her High school team... it is all about her club play which started at U9.
  #92  
Old 10-23-2010, 01:34 AM
Spud Spud is offline
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Originally Posted by Snake Plissken View Post
.
I thought you were dead.

(sorry I just couldn't resist)
  #93  
Old 10-23-2010, 01:39 AM
Snowboarder Bo Snowboarder Bo is offline
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Originally Posted by Mach Tuck View Post
Nothing can be experiential? There's no time for just learning? A soccer game has to be total war to the death with the bodies burned afterward? C'mon..
There is a time for just learning: it's called "practice".

Scores should be kept if it's a game. Otherwise, it's not a game. It's practice.
  #94  
Old 10-23-2010, 10:29 PM
lindsaybluth lindsaybluth is offline
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Originally Posted by Spud View Post
Really? So why when the day before yesterday when my daughter met with the head coach of a very prestigious east coast university were his first words "So, your team won the state title every year from U9 through U15... very impressive." If I remember right U9, U10, U11, U12, U13, and U14 are pre High School. The biggest thing that opens doors is winning regionals (champions of 13 states) at U13 (again pre High School).

And being all about Height... my daughter is 5'0", weight... maybe 110, reps... no idea, nobody has ever asked, and 40 time... again, nobody has ever asked. This is a kid who is being actively recruited by at least 10 universities. Short and small, but the top in 4 of the 6 categories (points, goals, assists, shots on goal) they keep stats for as a freshman on the varsity team. But you know what... they don't care so much what she did on her High school team... it is all about her club play which started at U9.
Um, what? It's definitely against NCAA rules to be talking to freshmen, let alone traveling to meet with them. You absolutely cannot talk to them, unless you're on their campus, with your expenses paid by you - which it doesn't sound like the case. Here's a link. So either you worded your post very poorly and she's not a freshmen, or you'd better keep the recruiters at bay till she's a junior so you don't see 150k dollars flitting away in your rearview mirror.

Obviously his stats/examples were for football. My sport (in high school) doesn't even encompass running, so if I had a 40 time, they'd probably be upset I was pounding my knees unnecessarily. Obviously it was to be taken with a grain of salt. FWIW, your daughter sounds more like a gymnast than an elite defender.
  #95  
Old 10-23-2010, 11:44 PM
Llama Llogophile Llama Llogophile is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowboarder Bo View Post
There is a time for just learning: it's called "practice".

Scores should be kept if it's a game. Otherwise, it's not a game. It's practice.
*shrug*

Preconceived notions I'm happy to dispense with as needed for training purposes. Kids are more flexible, and in that way are better learners.
  #96  
Old 10-23-2010, 11:49 PM
Spud Spud is offline
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Originally Posted by lindsaybluth View Post
Um, what? It's definitely against NCAA rules to be talking to freshmen, let alone traveling to meet with them. You absolutely cannot talk to them, unless you're on their campus, with your expenses paid by you - which it doesn't sound like the case. Here's a link. So either you worded your post very poorly and she's not a freshmen, or you'd better keep the recruiters at bay till she's a junior so you don't see 150k dollars flitting away in your rearview mirror.

Obviously his stats/examples were for football. My sport (in high school) doesn't even encompass running, so if I had a 40 time, they'd probably be upset I was pounding my knees unnecessarily. Obviously it was to be taken with a grain of salt. FWIW, your daughter sounds more like a gymnast than an elite defender.
Apparently it was very poorly worded, but I'm still not sure how you read into it that the visit was not on their campus and it was not at our expense (it was on their campus, and it was on our dime). No, she is not a freshman, she is a sophomore (last year is when she swept most of the stats categories). She was out most of this HS season with a broken foot... but scored in all of the games she played in and will be awarded her second varsity letter. Not sure either where you think she is a defender, or a gymnast... she is a forward in soccer. Also, I apologize that I misstated that it was a D1 school this week, Johns Hopkins is a D3 school so there is no athletic money, and the coach is able to contact her whenever he wants. Many of the schools she is talking to are D1, and she has the coach's cell numbers and as long as she calls them they are free to talk to her.
Trust me we are well aware of the NCAA rules on recruitment. When the D1 coaches come to see her at a showcase she (and we as parents) can't talk to the coach. When we go to their camp on campus we are free to talk as much as we like.

My point though is that coaches are definitely interested in how they have performed prior to and outside of High School.
  #97  
Old 10-24-2010, 12:09 AM
Spud Spud is offline
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Sorry, I missed the edit window. Please re-read post #57. I clearly state that she is a sophomore, and that we are travelling there for the meeting. No idea how you thought it was not at our expense. Not so sure it was poorly worded as poorly comprehended.
  #98  
Old 10-24-2010, 01:12 AM
GiantRat GiantRat is offline
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Perhaps it's because I quit baseball in 4th grade (not competitive enough), soccer in 2nd grade (again, same thing)... come to think of it, perhaps it's because I'm not always a team player....

At any rate, I was a wrestler from 3rd grade onward. In a one-on-one sport, there's no mistaking who won. Every match ends in tears, tantrums, or some similar act of agony. That's why I loved the sport, and why I quit other sports to pursue it. If I lost, I knew it was because I was beaten mentally or physically. If I won, the "glory" was mine. I've always thought those were valuable things to learn at an early age. I'll never forget a single match that I lost, and will never want to feel it again. And I bring that to bear at work and in my personal life. It's not all competitiveness - it's also learning not to be a fuckup.
  #99  
Old 10-24-2010, 03:56 AM
Ibanez Ibanez is offline
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There was this news story where I'm from for boys soccer in early teens where "parents" pushed to have a rule implemented into the league that basically gave a team an automatic loss if they scored more than 5 goals.

The idiocy of it all was amusing to say the least.
  #100  
Old 10-24-2010, 06:02 AM
ramel ramel is offline
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This entire thread has been a great surprise to me. I had no idea that so many people felt so strongly about score keeping.
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