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  #51  
Old 02-27-2020, 09:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Procrustus View Post
Lawyers have to dress up in court. And, of course, many law firms have a dress code. They don't have to. My firm is my cite. (I'm currently sitting at my desk in jeans, tennis shoes, and a t-shirt).
Lucky you. May son-in-law seems to have had the need for suits inoculated into him in law school.
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Old 02-27-2020, 09:51 PM
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In the 50's, here is one:
Note: There is a annoying sidebar that pops up but just click on the main article 2times or so and it disappears.

In the 50's for this job they didn't just want you thin, female, attractive and blond but also single and 'unencumbered'.



https://clickamericana.com/topics/mo...of-the-50s-60s
Stewardesses did have uniforms often making them into sex objects. Sure. I'm talking about more traditional offices.
  #53  
Old 02-28-2020, 08:21 AM
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Are there any women in the executive ranks of your company?

I worked in Silicon Valley. We consider people professional based on the work they do, not what they wear.
Just wanted to highlight this (my bolding). I hope everyone here who's working for an old-school, male-dominated, appearance-obsessed company gets to work someplace that "considers people professional based on the work they do".

That changed my life, and improved the quality of my work. Imagine walking into the office (or even working from home!) and worrying about how to do the best work you can for the firm's clients, and not worrying about what your bosses think of you. It's liberating.
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Old 02-28-2020, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by digs View Post
Just wanted to highlight this (my bolding). I hope everyone here who's working for an old-school, male-dominated, appearance-obsessed company gets to work someplace that "considers people professional based on the work they do".

That changed my life, and improved the quality of my work. Imagine walking into the office (or even working from home!) and worrying about how to do the best work you can for the firm's clients, and not worrying about what your bosses think of you. It's liberating.
Is there really no dress code? Can you show up in a clown nose and Borat mankini? If not, then you do have to worry about what your bosses think of you. People are always thinking something even when they do not say it.
  #55  
Old 02-28-2020, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by digs View Post
Just wanted to highlight this (my bolding). I hope everyone here who's working for an old-school, male-dominated, appearance-obsessed company gets to work someplace that "considers people professional based on the work they do".

That changed my life, and improved the quality of my work. Imagine walking into the office (or even working from home!) and worrying about how to do the best work you can for the firm's clients, and not worrying about what your bosses think of you. It's liberating.
My understanding is that even in places with very relaxed dress codes , you still have to worry about what your bosses (and other people) think of you. It's just that they'll think badly of you if you dress too formally rather than the reverse.
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Old 02-28-2020, 09:35 AM
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My gf is in an interesting situation. She works in advertising, is a VP and interacts with clients while overseeing a creative team. She dresses "fancy", with pretty dresses, expensive shoes, etc. The creative people on her team wear whatever they want, ride bicycles (from a client), play ping-pong, smoke weed (in the bathroom), etc. Somehow it works.
  #57  
Old 02-28-2020, 09:47 AM
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My gf is in an interesting situation. She works in advertising, is a VP and interacts with clients while overseeing a creative team. She dresses "fancy", with pretty dresses, expensive shoes, etc. The creative people on her team wear whatever they want, ride bicycles (from a client), play ping-pong, smoke weed (in the bathroom), etc. Somehow it works.
Creative types are almost expected to be "quirky."
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Old 02-28-2020, 10:47 AM
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Creative types are almost expected to be "quirky."
The last time I visited my gf at work there were people wearing rollerblades, skating around and around the office (a huge, open area) playing roller derby.
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Old 02-28-2020, 11:10 AM
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The actual dress code at the last place I worked (15+ years) was delivered verbally by the owner and on a regular basis: Dress better than the client. This could be a bit tricky, since we often met new clients and had no idea how they would be dressing, but we managed.

I also have to mention that I have never found jeans and a tee (or golf shirt) to be as comfortable as khakis and a dress shirt. It seems like nearly everyone thinks of jeans as the absolute best, most comfortable, most casual, and least expensive type of men's pants to wear. IME, khakis are more comfortable to move in, are better ventilated, and give me lots more flexibility if I have to stoop, crawl, bend over, or otherwise move around. The ones I buy are just as cheap as good jeans. I wear my khakis on all my days off.
  #60  
Old 02-28-2020, 11:37 AM
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Someone pointed out in a recent "Why are people in this 1910's NYC street scene dressed so nicely?" thread that men's business suits **are** basically informal lounge suits. That's just what normal New Yorkers wore. So if people at such-and-such a firm are expected to wear them, my interpretation is not that they are considered more formal than what the women wear, it's that (in the mind of the possibly not-young bosses) showing up to work in jeans is tantamount to showing up to the law office with a hard hat and pickaxe. Anyway, these types of fashions change fairly rapidly.
  #61  
Old 02-28-2020, 12:27 PM
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Long ago I got offered a splendid job teaching chess full-time in a private school, where the male staff all wore suits and ties.
Since I'd previously worked in computing, I didn't own a suit.

I persuaded the Headmaster that strong chess players wore informal clothing (which is pretty true.)
I also offered to help out the Sports Department with the non-team players (e.g. organising non-contact rugby, tennis etc.)
So I wore a tracksuit to work for 18 years.
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Old 02-28-2020, 12:34 PM
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Maybe it has to do with one gender outnumbering the other?

At my place of work women outnumber men 4 to 1 and it is the opposite. The women's dress code is strictly defined, (allowed tops and bottoms, types of allowed hosery, quanitity of makeup, etc) while the men's seems more of an after thought.
  #63  
Old 02-28-2020, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by kayaker View Post
My gf is in an interesting situation. She works in advertising, is a VP and interacts with clients while overseeing a creative team. She dresses "fancy", with pretty dresses, expensive shoes, etc. The creative people on her team wear whatever they want, ride bicycles (from a client), play ping-pong, smoke weed (in the bathroom), etc. Somehow it works.
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Originally Posted by Living Well Is Best Revenge View Post
Creative types are almost expected to be "quirky."
I work at a marketing agency and it's as casual as can be. As long as your clothes are clean, not ripped to shreds and not too revealing, you're fine. Silly (non-explicit) Graphic tees? Awful color and pattern combos? Bring it on.

.... EXCEPT ....

For some reason, men are expected to wear long pants and closed-toed shoes year-round, and no such rules apply to the women. In July and August I get so jealous of the women in shorts, skirts and sandals while I'm still in jeans and loafers. Although I will admit they all look 100% classy and professional, whereas in shorts and sandals I look like a complete slacker.
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Last edited by Akaj; 02-28-2020 at 01:18 PM.
  #64  
Old 02-28-2020, 01:27 PM
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For some reason, men are expected to wear long pants and closed-toed shoes year-round, and no such rules apply to the women. In July and August I get so jealous of the women in shorts, skirts and sandals while I'm still in jeans and loafers. Although I will admit they all look 100% classy and professional, whereas in shorts and sandals I look like a complete slacker.
That's backwards.

These women look "classy and professional" because the societal convention for women's business dress includes that look. Conversely for men.
  #65  
Old 02-28-2020, 01:37 PM
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My understanding is that even in places with very relaxed dress codes , you still have to worry about what your bosses (and other people) think of you. It's just that they'll think badly of you if you dress too formally rather than the reverse.
I've been in many, many performance reviews in a number of tech companies, and dress has never been an issue. When I started at one company there was a guy, an older guy, who liked suits. He was considered weird but still respected.
You do have to worry about what your boss thinks of you, but except for very extreme cases (which I've never seen) this doesn't have anything to do with dress.
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Old 02-28-2020, 01:43 PM
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Agree with the above so shall we move towards space communism ala Star Trek?

We can all wear a muʻumuʻu (each, not sharing) for now.
  #67  
Old 02-28-2020, 01:43 PM
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That's backwards.

These women look "classy and professional" because the societal convention for women's business dress includes that look. Conversely for men.
Could be. Or maybe they're actually classy and professional, and I'm actually a slacker.
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Old 02-28-2020, 01:50 PM
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I've been in many, many performance reviews in a number of tech companies, and dress has never been an issue. When I started at one company there was a guy, an older guy, who liked suits. He was considered weird but still respected.
You do have to worry about what your boss thinks of you, but except for very extreme cases (which I've never seen) this doesn't have anything to do with dress.
Sometimes people who work in technology have difficulty appreciating subtle issues and the social significance of many behaviours.

They don't see it, so they don't see it, and they don't consider it.

How would they know what they are missing?
  #69  
Old 02-28-2020, 02:32 PM
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Sometimes people who work in technology have difficulty appreciating subtle issues and the social significance of many behaviours.

They don't see it, so they don't see it, and they don't consider it.

How would they know what they are missing?
I don't really understand your comment. If someone wore something that disrupted the office, people would get that. But a guy wearing shorts doesn't distract the office. A woman wearing jeans doesn't either. Nor does a guy wearing a suit.
In fact, over the last 10 - 15 years, salespeople calling on us who used to wear suits stopped, because they found that we didn't think their product was better or worse depending on the way they dressed.
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Old 02-28-2020, 03:05 PM
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I'm saying you don't understand things that you don't notice.

How could you?
  #71  
Old 02-28-2020, 03:31 PM
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I've been in many, many performance reviews in a number of tech companies, and dress has never been an issue. When I started at one company there was a guy, an older guy, who liked suits. He was considered weird but still respected.
I didn't mean that people wearing a suit won't be respected , that's why I used the more generic "think badly of you". That phrase covers a whole lot more than just "not respected". You just said he was considered "weird". I wouldn't want my boss or coworkers to think I was "weird".
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Old 02-28-2020, 03:42 PM
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I'm saying you don't understand things that you don't notice.

How could you?
If Voyager gets to wear stuff he likes, isn't uncomfortable, is still employed and doesn't feel like he's being unfairly held down for nebulous reasons, then this "not noticing" sounds like a win. Assuming that there truly is something to notice in the first place.

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I didn't mean that people wearing a suit won't be respected , that's why I used the more generic "think badly of you". That phrase covers a whole lot more than just "not respected". You just said he was considered "weird". I wouldn't want my boss or coworkers to think I was "weird".
That may be a personal preference difference between you and the sorts of people who wear suits at tech companies. IMO it's much better to be thought weird than thought generic (I'd certainly prefer it)
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Old 02-28-2020, 03:47 PM
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If someone dresses outside the norm at work, it will influence how other people think of them. Someone with a sloppy or much more casual appearance might be thought of as a slacker. Someone who dresses up too much might be thought of as pompous. Someone who dresses in a much more flashy way may be thought of as trying to hard. Even if no one says anything, people will make judgements based on how people look and it may influence how the person is treated at work. Bosses and co-workers are people with regular people behaviors. If someone thinks you look sloppy, they're going to think less of you regardless of any office dress policy.
  #74  
Old 02-28-2020, 04:25 PM
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I'm a lawyer, and my practice is one of those rare areas where we're in court pretty much daily. However, it's Children's Court, which many view as slightly more casual than other courts. Men still mostly wear suits and ties, though I've seen slacks with non-matching sport coats. A male colleague used to wear colorful suits and loud ties, and judges would compliment him on his outfits. Women really run the gamut. Some wear full suits with heels, though hardly anyone wears flesh-toned pantyhose anymore. Others, especially the children's attorneys, dress in a way that barely qualifies as business casual.

When I was a staff attorney, I always wore either a suit or something fairly close to it, such as a blazer over a nice blouse with slacks or a medium-length skirt. Now that I don't have to be in court as often, I dress more business casual. But I think it's important to dress for court, especially when you're a court-appointed attorney--clients who have no say in who represents them deserve someone who at least looks like they're trying. I don't know if children feel differently.

It can be tricky to meet that standard, though. Women's suits are actually pretty hard to find these days, especially if you're trying to avoid the ill-fitting (for me) matronly department store options. I once bought a sheath dress with matching jacket combo online. The hips were snug, but I could've smuggled a basketball around the middle. It was not a maternity suit. I always snap up a good one when I see it, but I haven't seen one in years.
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Old 02-28-2020, 07:46 PM
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I didn't mean that people wearing a suit won't be respected , that's why I used the more generic "think badly of you". That phrase covers a whole lot more than just "not respected". You just said he was considered "weird". I wouldn't want my boss or coworkers to think I was "weird".
I take it you don't work in tech. Weird and smart works very well. Though smart counts for more.
And the guy dressed weird, he wasn't considered as weird. We can mostly distinguish clothing from ability.
  #76  
Old 02-28-2020, 07:52 PM
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If someone dresses outside the norm at work, it will influence how other people think of them. Someone with a sloppy or much more casual appearance might be thought of as a slacker. Someone who dresses up too much might be thought of as pompous. Someone who dresses in a much more flashy way may be thought of as trying to hard. Even if no one says anything, people will make judgements based on how people look and it may influence how the person is treated at work. Bosses and co-workers are people with regular people behaviors. If someone thinks you look sloppy, they're going to think less of you regardless of any office dress policy.
That's true if you go outside the norms, but when the norms are very, very wide, going outside of them is not too likely.
In some places the wrong tie might be considered outside the norms. Where I worked, at the end, maybe ripped jeans would be. I never saw any so I wouldn't know. Shorts definitely were not outside the norm.
  #77  
Old 03-01-2020, 10:46 AM
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as far as fitting you can go to a tailor to get clothes modified but of course that adds cost.
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Old 03-01-2020, 11:16 PM
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I teach at a private school here in Taiwan. The dress code is pretty relaxed, but they do have some rules. Shorts and T-shirts are OK, but sleeveless shirts are not. However, the women can wear sleeveless shirts so that's only something the men can't do. Same for sandals as there are dressy sandals for women.
  #79  
Old 03-02-2020, 04:08 AM
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This is where the OP's misconception is:

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Originally Posted by MrLee View Post
[...]in virtually every other walk of life women - rightly or wrongly - spend more time caring (and being judged) about their appearance than men do. Why would the workplace be a sudden reversal of that?
It's not a reversal, that's exactly the point.

Men's fashion, particularly in the US, is very limited and conservative. So in formal offices, a standard uniform has developed with very few options*. You're only a shade more free in your clothing options than a soldier performing in a formal ceremony.

Meanwhile there's more of a culture for women, certainly since the second world war, to wear bold, unique and aesthetically desirable clothing, for various reasons including of course sexism and our patriarchal history.
But nowadays, even imagine we're a completely feminist society, what even would a woman's uniform be? There's no obvious single choice. It makes more sense that the rules for men be relaxed instead.

* As I say, the US is more conservative than most Western nations on this. I was surprised to learn that black suits, pink shirts and brown shoes are all verboten (and I don't mean together) in formal offices, though I understand the latter is starting to be relaxed.

Last edited by Mijin; 03-02-2020 at 04:11 AM.
  #80  
Old 03-12-2020, 06:02 PM
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To the OP


If you don't mind my asking, what industry or type of business do you work in? Given the details evident in your unwritten dress code I can't help but be curious. IME, which has been mostly in business casual settings, higher level staff tends to be dressier rather than more casual, generally due to more external meetings and so forth.
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