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  #51  
Old 06-10-2019, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
I dont think we need another thread on guns, in general, maybe we shoudl try to stay more on Democratic candidates and their stances?

Mea culpa too.
The OP asked about governors and members of Congress. The thread title asks about Democrats.

Wikipedia tells me there are 23 Dem governors, 235 Dem house representatives, and 45 Dem senators. It would be tedious, but one could, as bordelond suggested, check each one's individual stance to see if they self-identify as "pro-gun" or not. I suspect the end result would be a very short list of Dems elected to statewide or federal offices that self-identify as "pro-gun".

I think any organization that cared enough to actually rate politicians, like NRA / GOA / Everytown is going to be partisan enough on the issue to not really be trusted by the other side or moderates.
  #52  
Old 06-10-2019, 07:09 PM
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You didnít read my post, did you? McCain couldnít be trusted to maintain a steady platform of being pro-gun rights because of statements he made even in the face of pro-gun votes he made. He was unbalanced and couldnít be counted on. Just because he happened to make more pro-gun votes than Pelosi doesnít mean he deserved a better grade than her. He knocked his rating down doing and saying other things. There are several factors that are considered in those ratings. He simply wasnít the 2nd Amendment defender the left paints him as. GOA exposed him for what he was and it pisses you off. So you label GOA owners as extremists and fringe. Oh, yeah? At least we didnít roll over and play dead like the NRA does when it comes to compromising on our civil liberties.
Right. Manchin opposed a concealed carry bill in WV calling it "irresponsible" yet he still gets an A- rating from the NRA? https://www.manchin.senate.gov/newsr...g-requirements

We've had the law for 3 years now and no increase in violence, no even anecdotal. The NRA just likes to pad their stats by backing winners. GOA actually goes behind the platitudes.
  #53  
Old 06-10-2019, 10:20 PM
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... We've had the law for 3 years now and no increase in violence, no even anecdotal. The NRA just likes to pad their stats by backing winners. GOA actually goes behind the platitudes.
I always laugh when I see those folks salivating at the thought of "beating" the NRA or putting them out of the influence business. If everyone who is an NRA member switched to GOA, the debate would take a significantly different direction.

Last edited by JXJohns; 06-10-2019 at 10:24 PM.
  #54  
Old 06-11-2019, 05:29 AM
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You didnít read my post, did you? McCain couldnít be trusted to maintain a steady platform of being pro-gun rights because of statements he made even in the face of pro-gun votes he made. He was unbalanced and couldnít be counted on. Just because he happened to make more pro-gun votes than Pelosi doesnít mean he deserved a better grade than her. He knocked his rating down doing and saying other things. There are several factors that are considered in those ratings. He simply wasnít the 2nd Amendment defender the left paints him as. GOA exposed him for what he was and it pisses you off.
Yes, I read your post. And this one. And you havenít actually contested my central point: that GOA ratings are so subjective that John McCain and Nancy Pelosi get the same rating, based on the organizationís grudge against McCain.

Thereís no objective standard in which McCain and Pelosi can be considered interchangeable on voting on gun laws. Is there overlap? Sure, on a few issues. But just a few. But they are far more different than they are similar, and yet the most radical gun organization rates them identically.

Why do you think Iím angry about this? You seem really bent out of shape by my challenge to your assertion that GOA issues accurate ratings of politicians. I donít really care about McCainís political positions. Iím just saying itís silly for anyone but the most extreme fringes of the pro-gun side to listen to GOA on anything.
  #55  
Old 06-11-2019, 05:54 AM
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Right. Manchin opposed a concealed carry bill in WV calling it "irresponsible" yet he still gets an A- rating from the NRA? https://www.manchin.senate.gov/newsr...g-requirements
Fact check: Manchin has a D rating from the NRA.

https://www.nrapvf.org/articles/2018...gainst-manchin
  #56  
Old 06-11-2019, 11:10 AM
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Fact check: Manchin has a D rating from the NRA.

https://www.nrapvf.org/articles/2018...gainst-manchin
Very well. I stand corrected. I was going off the information in the thread.
  #57  
Old 06-11-2019, 02:09 PM
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Iím just saying itís silly for anyone but the most extreme fringes of the pro-gun side to listen to GOA on anything.
Actually itís ludicrous not to listen to GOA. Weíre the only no compromise gun rights organization. While groups like the NRA roll over on issues we stand up and fight.

Do you compromise on your civil liberties? I didnít think so. Refusing to give up your rights is not fringe or extreme.
  #58  
Old 06-11-2019, 04:13 PM
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The fact that they're no compromise is precisely why it's not useful to listen to them.
  #59  
Old 06-11-2019, 05:17 PM
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The fact that they're no compromise is precisely why it's not useful to listen to them.

Iíll ask again: are you willing to compromise any of your civil liberties?
  #60  
Old 06-11-2019, 05:35 PM
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I’ll ask again: are you willing to compromise any of your civil liberties?

Sure.

1st Ad: I think making and selling Kiddie porn with live underage kids should be illegal, and seriously penalized. I am Ok with laws against Libel, slander, plagiarism and copyright abuse. I dont think that your religion should make me do anything.


4th: Privacy- you only have a right to privacy when you have a legitimate expectation of privacy.

And so forth. Just like the 2nd Ad, as set out in Heller: 2. Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited.
It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any
manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose: For example, concealed weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment
or state analogues. The Court’s opinion should not be taken to cast
doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by
felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or
laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of
arms. Miller’s holding that the sorts of weapons protected are those
“in common use at the time” finds support in the historical tradition
of prohibiting the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons.


No Right is absolute.

But again, we are getting away from which Dem candidates have which gun policies/programs/platforms/

Last edited by DrDeth; 06-11-2019 at 05:36 PM.
  #61  
Old 06-12-2019, 07:44 AM
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groups like the NRA roll over on issues
A phrase I would never have expected to encounter anywhere.
  #62  
Old 06-12-2019, 08:05 AM
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One might fairly say that Malcolm X was less compromising on civil liberties than was Martin Luther King. Which one accomplished more?

And what do civil liberties have to do with the Second Amendment, anyway?
  #63  
Old 06-12-2019, 10:16 AM
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Iíll ask again: are you willing to compromise any of your civil liberties?
I agree with DrDeth. We make little compromises all the time. As a law former enforcement officer, you should be well-acquainted with the fact that the right to be secure in our persons and our possessions isn't a matter that hasn't been encroached in various ways in the interests of balancing liberties with safety or common sense.
  #64  
Old 06-12-2019, 11:13 AM
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One might fairly say that Malcolm X was less compromising on civil liberties than was Martin Luther King. Which one accomplished more?

And what do civil liberties have to do with the Second Amendment, anyway?
is the right to keep and bear arms not a civil liberty?

Maybe I don't get your question.
  #65  
Old 06-12-2019, 11:56 AM
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There is, as you may be aware, considerable debate about that point.

Even if it is one, do you see any other rights held by others that may come into conflict with it? How do you think those conflicts should be resolved?
  #66  
Old 06-12-2019, 12:05 PM
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is the right to keep and bear arms not a civil liberty?

.
It is, and we accept many small compromises on most of our Civil rights.

But again, this is a hijack and has nothing to do with Pro-gun democrats.
  #67  
Old 06-12-2019, 12:10 PM
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As a law former enforcement officer.
What is a law former enforcement officer?

If you are suggesting I am a former LEO, you are wrong. I went back on the job with another agency after I retired. Just couldnít stay away.

Letís take a look at a current issue.

For decades the BATFE insisted that bump stocks and assorted external trigger accessories were perfectly legal to possess and use.

Then by Presidential decree the government announced those items were not legal. No Vote, just an order by Trump. Then hundreds of thousands of citizens were forced to surrender their property or become federal felons.

No act of Congress.
No due process.
No compensation for seized property.

Substitute bump stock for any other item regulated by the government and you should see the tyranny in this.

Due process and just compensation for seized assets are civil rights. The ďextremistĒ GOA fought for these civil rights while the NRA betrayed itís members and went along with having lawfully obtained property confiscated with no due process or compensation.

The GOA is a tough grader but itís ratings of Pols are an accurate reflection of their overall stances and actions regarding gun rights.
  #68  
Old 06-12-2019, 12:24 PM
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If you are suggesting I am a former LEO, you are wrong. I went back on the job with another agency after I retired. Just couldnít stay away.
Thank you for the update. Since you oppose the compromise of civil liberties, shall I take it that you perform your duties in a manner that maximizes deference to the privacy and liberty of individuals you are investigating, even if courts have ruled that such deference isn't owed?
  #69  
Old 06-12-2019, 12:30 PM
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But again, this is a hijack and has nothing to do with Pro-gun democrats.
Still looking for a definition of those terms. However, the difficulty in finding "pro-gun Democrats" may illustrate a fundamentally different worldview that plays itself out in party affiliation - one party that sees society as a collection of isolated individuals who happen to be close to each other, each claiming and guarding what it sees as its rights and to hell with the rest of 'em, and one party that has a broader view that sees the inevitable interactions between people as of fundamental importance, and requiring that the actual society that results as being a good thing. A single-minded absorption in gun ownership, to the depreciation of all else, is consistent with only one of those worldviews, and generally with party affiliation.
  #70  
Old 06-12-2019, 12:48 PM
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Thank you for the update. Since you oppose the compromise of civil liberties, shall I take it that you perform your duties in a manner that maximizes deference to the privacy and liberty of individuals you are investigating, even if courts have ruled that such deference isn't owed?
I have never been charged with violating anyoneís civil rights.
  #71  
Old 06-12-2019, 01:12 PM
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Neither have any of the people pushing for gun control.
  #72  
Old 06-12-2019, 01:51 PM
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Neither have any of the people pushing for gun control.

I beg to differ. They are actively trying to deny citizens their civil right to keep and bear arms. And they are not attempting this in the lawful manner of amending the Constitution but by court orders, Presidential decrees, and unconstitutional legislation.
  #73  
Old 06-12-2019, 02:52 PM
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I have never been charged with violating anyoneís civil rights.
That was not the question. Nobody has been up for penalties for violating someone's civil rights by legally conducting a background check on a gun buyer, but you still think that's what's happening.

The question is whether you give more deference to the civil liberties of the people you interview or investigate than is required by law -- so as not to be the one compromising anyone else's civil rights, even if it is legally allowable. (Just like how background checks etc. are legally allowable, but you seem to view as compromising to civil rights.)
  #74  
Old 06-12-2019, 03:47 PM
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The question is whether you give more deference to the civil liberties of the people you interview or investigate than is required by law)

Of course
  #75  
Old 06-12-2019, 05:44 PM
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Of course
So for example, you will not exercise a Terry stop and frisk?
  #76  
Old 06-12-2019, 09:50 PM
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So for example, you will not exercise a Terry stop and frisk?
Detaining someone who has or is about to commit a crime is not unreasonable. The 4th Amendment only prohibits unreasonable searches.

But nowhere in the entire constitution does the President have authority to make law without Congress, nor does the government have the authority to confiscate lawfully obtained property without due process or just compensation.

Nowhere does the Constitution give any government body authority to prohibit ownership of militia weapons. Background checks are prohibited by the 5th and 9th Amendments.
  #77  
Old 06-13-2019, 04:57 AM
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Sounds like you’re fine with a compromise on the balance of liberty and security. As long as it isn’t about guns. Pew pew pew!

Last edited by Ravenman; 06-13-2019 at 04:58 AM.
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