Straight Dope Message Board

[Ukulele Ike]

I don't care for lemon peel. If I want boozy lemonade, I'll make a Tom Collins.

No green olives in the fridge tonight. No pickled onions for a Gibson.

So I made a big dollop of iced gin with a splash of vermouth and dropped a piparra in the bottom of the glass. That's a small mild Basque pepper pickled in vinegar. It was EXCELLENT. I may dub it the "Ukulele Ike."

What other pickled things have you put in your Martinis when no olives were available? Or WOULD you?

I wouldn't use a kosher half-sour; it would displace too much gin.

[The Other Waldo Pepper]

I've never tried 'em, but my father swears by pickled pearl onions.

[RealityChuck]

Originally Posted by The Other Waldo Pepper

I've never tried 'em, but my father swears by pickled pearl onions.

That's a Gibson, not a martini.

[Ike Witt]

What is the difference between a Gibson and a Martini? Is is just the garnish?

[RealityChuck]

Originally Posted by Ike Witt

What is the difference between a Gibson and a Martini? Is is just the garnish?

Pretty much. Both are gin and vermouth, plus garnish. There are variations in the ratios of gin to vermouth, but martinis have variations of that, too. Wikipedia gives the same ratio of gin and vermouth for both drinks: 6:1.

Of course, nowadays, martini usually signifies "vodka martini," just as it used to signify "dry martini." "Martini" was the name of a different drink with a 1:1 ratio of gin and sweet vermouth.

[MacLir]

Originally Posted by RealityChuck

Pretty much. Both are gin and vermouth, plus garnish. There are variations in the ratios of gin to vermouth, but martinis have variations of that, too. Wikipedia gives the same ratio of gin and vermouth for both drinks: 6:1.

Of course, nowadays, martini usually signifies "vodka martini," just as it used to signify "dry martini." "Martini" was the name of a different drink with a 1:1 ratio of gin and sweet vermouth.

Couldn't possibly have to do with the best known brand of vermouth being Martini & Rossi …

[TriPolar]

Best bet is a vodka martini, hold the vermouth and the garnish.

[DrDeth]

Originally Posted by TriPolar

Best bet is a vodka martini, hold the vermouth and the garnish.

We call that "straight vodka". There's no martini there. It's like "a margarita , hold the triple sec and lime, no salt". aka straight tequila.

[Ukulele Ike]

Thanks for nothing, buddies.

I said "no pickled onions," and cold vodka in a glass is a drink only fit for a pig of a Krushchev. Unless I have a spread of good caviare and pickled mushrooms.

[teela brown]

I'll bet one of those little French cornichons would go well. They're pretty tiny, too, so they won't take up too much room.

[madmonk28]

Cold vodka is not a martini, it's cold vodka is for people who don't like booze. Try a pickled jalapeño or cherry pepper.

[Little Nemo]

Wouldn't be a problem around here. I'd just run over to the local Walmart (which is open twenty-four hours a day) and buy a jar of olives.

This is what you get for choosing to live in a small town that doesn't offer the conveniences of modern living.

[Mona Lisa Simpson]

Originally Posted by Little Nemo

Wouldn't be a problem around here. I'd just run over to the local Walmart (which is open twenty-four hours a day) and buy a jar of olives.

This is what you get for choosing to live in a small town that doesn't offer the conveniences of modern living.

I would say not living near a Walmart is a feature, not a bug.

I am in Vancouver, the Walmart is pretty far away AND I would go to a 24 hour pharmacy with a decent grocery selection.

[Ukulele Ike]

Originally Posted by Mona Lisa Simpson

I would say not living near a Walmart is a feature, not a bug.

Little Nemo, he was makin' wit da jokes.

I usually go to an olive bar in Greektown (up in Astoria, Queens) or to the local Whole Foods or other goormay shop, and fill a container half-and-half with green olives in garlic and green olives in Mediterranean herbs, then shake them together.

These are very good indeed either as table olives or in a Martini. The only drawback is when you drink outside, and the little vegetal herb flecks float up and you think you got a fly in your booze.

[Martini Enfield]

What goes in a Martini?

Depending on the variant, usually a .577/450 Boxer or a .303 British cartridge; although Turkish ones used an 11.43x55 rimmed cartridge or the 7.63x53mm Argentine round.

It's OK, I'll get my coat.

[JRDelirious]

Originally Posted by madmonk28

Cold vodka is not a martini, it's cold vodka is for people who don't like booze. Try a pickled jalapeño or cherry pepper.

Ya got it, a martini contains gin (default) or vodka, plus a measurable, detectable amount of vermouth. Garnished iced vodka/gin is not a martini.

[wolfpup]

Originally Posted by Ukulele Ike

Yeah...you can have a Martini with a twist of lemon or a Martini with an olive, but you have to call a Martini with a pickled onion a Gibson.

Originally Posted by JRDelirious

Ya got it, a martini contains gin (default) or vodka, plus a measurable, detectable amount of vermouth. Garnished iced vodka/gin is not a martini.

My standard martini used to be ice, vodka, a splash of vermouth, and an olive. But now the olive has been superseded by a far superior garnish -- it's technically a pickled onion, but no ordinary picked onion! It's a Sable & Rosenfeld tipsy onion -- soaked in a vermouth-laden pickling broth. It's sometimes hard to find so I have many jars in reserve. There is no comparison with an ordinary pickled onion which tends to be harsh and strongly flavored -- these are beautifully mild and ooze vermouth flavor --just perfect for a martini even if some insist on calling it a Gibson, and I don't even bother with vermouth now.

[standingwave]

No olives?! Where are you, Korea? Without olives, a martini just doesn’t quite make it: https://youtu.be/2lDyDx32YJE#t=2m40s

__________
If you must, this sounds interesting... (but to hell with vodka, I'd make it with gin.)

Garlic Black Pepper Vodka Martini

2 ounces vodka, Hangar 1 used here*
1/2 ounce dry vermouth, Vya Extra Dry used here
1 garlic clove, sliced
2 grinds black pepper, on the coarse side

In a shaker 2/3 filled with ice, combine vodka, vermouth, garlic slices and black pepper. Shake hard for 20 seconds and strain into a chilled cocktail glass. Optionally add the garlic slices back to the glass.

[Aspenglow]

No vodka.

In the absence of an olive, I'd use a pickled green bean. Or two. (Also delicious in Bloody Marys!)

[TYphoonSignal8]

Pickled ginger.

[Channing Idaho Banks]

Pickled tomato. Or Pickled herring.

[Vinyl Turnip]

Originally Posted by TYphoonSignal8

Pickled ginger.

No need for name-calling.

[dougie_monty]

Originally Posted by Vinyl Turnip

No need for name-calling.

Maybe Ginger SHOULD lay off the sauce.

[Smapti]

Never tried it, but for some reason I'm thinking a cube of bleu cheese would work well.

[yo han go]

Raw chicken heart just scratched from your bare foot would also be a good alternative. (Might be that we are escalating this to quickly)

[Ukulele Ike]

Yeah...you can have a Martini with a twist of lemon or a Martini with an olive, but you have to call a Martini with a pickled onion a Gibson.

[wolfman]

Originally Posted by Ukulele Ike

Yeah...you can have a Martini with a twist of lemon or a Martini with an olive, but you have to call a Martini with a pickled onion a Gibson.

So If you made one with an olive half and an onion half stuck together you'd have a Martison?

[DrFidelius]

I have a copy of an ultimate martini book around here somewhere. If I can find it I can read off some of the alternative garnishes.

One I remember is to use some hot sauce instead of vermouth and garnish with a shrimp. I think this would work better with a vodka martini than most gins.

[Ukulele Ike]

Originally Posted by DrFidelius

One I remember is to use some hot sauce instead of vermouth and garnish with a shrimp.

A COOKED shrimp, I hope.

At what point does changing the garnish (or the vermouth ingredient) change the name of the drink? There's an English thing where they put a few dashes of bitters into a glass of gin, but that's just called a "pink gin."

If you put a whiskey sour into a tall glass, filled it with ice, and topped it with seltzer, you'd have a John Collins, the whiskey alternative to a Tom Collins. But making the same drink with vodka or rum yields a Vodka Collins or a Rum Collins....no proper Christian name given.

A Gimlet is a whiskey sour made with gin. A Daiquiri is a Gimlet made with rum.

I think I need to go lie down.

[JRDelirious]

Originally Posted by Ukulele Ike

If you put a whiskey sour into a tall glass, filled it with ice, and topped it with seltzer, you'd have a John Collins, the whiskey alternative to a Tom Collins. But making the same drink with vodka or rum yields a Vodka Collins or a Rum Collins....no proper Christian name given.

A Gimlet is a whiskey sour made with gin. A Daiquiri is a Gimlet made with rum.

I think I need to go lie down.

Y'know, you didn't have to sample them all.

[Major Matt Mason]

Originally Posted by Ukulele Ike

A Gimlet is a whiskey sour made with gin. A Daiquiri is a Gimlet made with rum.

And if you stir it with a chopstick, it's a hickory daiquiri, doc.

-MMM-

(gag stolen from Spider Robinson)

[Ike Witt]

Originally Posted by Ukulele Ike

A Gimlet is a whiskey sour made with gin.

I am pretty sure that is wrong.

[bump]

Originally Posted by Ike Witt

I am pretty sure that is wrong.

Indeed.

A gimlet is gin with Rose's Lime Juice, a bottled lime cordial product (you've seen it, I'm sure).

A whiskey sour made with gin would be, appropriately enough, a gin sour.

http://www.esquire.com/food-drink/dr...cocktail-0912/

[Ukulele Ike]

Originally Posted by Ike Witt

I am pretty sure that is wrong.

Yeah, I was generalizing. A whiskey sour is lemon juice, sugar, and booze. As bump said, a Gimlet should have Rose's Lime Juice, which is lime juice and sugar in a bottle.

If you have no Rose's, you could make a Gimlet with fresh lime juice and sugar (a gin Daiquiri!), which is probably a superior drink.

What I was getting at in my "liquor semantics" post is that all three of these cocktails are "punch." Without the "weak" part. You know the old mnemonic rhyme....One of sour, two of sweet, three of strong, and four of weak.

[gigi]

How about one of those hard-boiled eggs soaked in beet juice?

"We're gonna need a bigger martini glass."

[bump]

Originally Posted by Ukulele Ike

Yeah, I was generalizing. A whiskey sour is lemon juice, sugar, and booze. As bump said, a Gimlet should have Rose's Lime Juice, which is lime juice and sugar in a bottle.

If you have no Rose's, you could make a Gimlet with fresh lime juice and sugar (a gin Daiquiri!), which is probably a superior drink.

What I was getting at in my "liquor semantics" post is that all three of these cocktails are "punch." Without the "weak" part. You know the old mnemonic rhyme....One of sour, two of sweet, three of strong, and four of weak.

Cocktail naming is all in the details though; technically a vodka martini is a "Kangaroo", not a martini of any kind. And for that matter, to be a cocktail, it pretty much has to follow the "spirits, bitters, sweetener" formula, where the sweetener can be sugar, like in an Old Fashioned, or some sort of vermouth, like in a Manhattan or Martini. Leaving the ibtters out makes it some kind of mixed drink (in a very pedantic and nitpicking sense).

I'm not sure they really count as "punch"- punches are more about that ratio above than anything else- to be a punch, it would be more like a Tom Collins or a gin fizz than anything else- something like 0.5 oz lime juice, 1 oz sugar, 1.5 oz gin, and 2 oz water/soda-water. Which I suspect would be too sweet, and not sour enough.

[Little Nemo]

Originally Posted by DrFidelius

One I remember is to use some hot sauce instead of vermouth and garnish with a shrimp.

A Treiftini.

[harmonicamoon]

A friend of mine would make martunis with a pickled tomato. I never really liked martunis, but I loved those pickled tomatoes. They were about the size of a nickel. Delicious.

[gazpacho]

Originally Posted by harmonicamoon

A friend of mine would make martunis with a pickled tomato. I never really liked martunis, but I loved those pickled tomatoes. They were about the size of a nickel. Delicious.

Where they green tomatoes? If they were then they probably were tomolives.
http://oldsouth.com/product/6-pack-tomolives-32oz/

[dougie_monty]

Originally Posted by gazpacho

Where they green tomatoes? If they were then they probably were tomolives.
http://oldsouth.com/product/6-pack-tomolives-32oz/

I love you, tomolive, you're always a day away...

[Tim R. Mortiss]

My first choice of martini garnish is always a pickled mushroom. Blue cheese stuffed olive is second.

But I have had a very nice martini garnished with a black olive stuffed with salmon mousse. That was good!

[Duke of Rat]

I'd think any pickled veggie would do in a pinch, it's the vinegary whang that the olive brings to the drink that you're after, right?

[dougie_monty]

How about a cherry?
In one old magazine cartoon a hostess tells her shocked guests, some of whom have already started sipping their martinis,
"I was out of olives, so I used clams."

[Ukulele Ike]

Originally Posted by Duke of Rat

I'd think any pickled veggie would do in a pinch, it's the vinegary whang that the olive brings to the drink that you're after, right?

Good point. You want a lashing of salt and vinegar as you sip the last of the drink.

Still, you want to avoid certain flavors. I have some cornichon-sized garlic-dill pickles that are extremely delicious, but I don't think I want garlic or dill in my aperitif.

The piparra, though, was delightful.

[pulykamell]

Actually, a gin sour is a different drink than a gimlet. Similar, sure, but not the same. If I ask for a gimlet and get gin and sour, it's getting sent back. Gin and Rose's for me, or Roses cut with lime juice if you're feeling fancy. I've made it with homemade like syrup, but I just need the Rose's for it to taste right to me.

[bump]

Originally Posted by pulykamell

Actually, a gin sour is a different drink than a gimlet. Similar, sure, but not the same. If I ask for a gimlet and get gin and sour, it's getting sent back. Gin and Rose's for me, or Roses cut with lime juice if you're feeling fancy. I've made it with homemade like syrup, but I just need the Rose's for it to taste right to me.

Yup. And a daiquiri is essentially a rum sour made with lime juice instead of lemon (or vice-versa; I think the daiquiri came first).

Cocktails/mixed drinks come in "families", which means that they're essentially the same drink, but made with slightly different ingredients. So a daiquiri and a whiskey sour fall into the same family- both are spirits, sour & sugar. Similarly, the older versions of the Martini (gin, vermouth, orange bitters) fall very squarely into the same family as the Manhattan (bourbon, red vermouth, aromatic bitters).

Garnishes typically aren't the decisive factor in the naming of a drink; most of the older ones (like say.. pre-Prohibition) had fast and loose garnishing rules- if you read the old books, there are rarely any hard and fast rules- they suggest things like nuts as garnishes in martinis, etc...

[AllShookDown]

I have no idea but I got an olive in my manhattan when I ordered one at a craft beer bar because I just couldn't choke down another bitter craft beer.

[OldGuy]

If you use a black olive it could be an Althea Gibson.

Though that name is likely too old for most of you.

[Saint Cad]

Too bad I just threw out an old jar of pickled jalapeno slices. I'd experiment and let you know.

[Duke of Rat]

Originally Posted by Saint Cad

Too bad I just threw out an old jar of pickled jalapeno slices. I'd experiment and let you know.

I love using jalapeno stuffed olives, something about the heat/booze just does it for me.