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  #151  
Old 07-26-2019, 08:41 PM
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I can certainly say hopelessness is not a pleasant feeling and if the current culture is leading more and more young isolated men to feel hopeless that is likely not ideal for those men or society as a whole.
We can see them. They discourage each other and chase all hope out of the room, that's the problem. You should check it out.
  #152  
Old 07-26-2019, 08:51 PM
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She was only the banker's daughter, but there was substantial penalty for early withdrawal.

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  #153  
Old 07-26-2019, 08:52 PM
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We can see them. They discourage each other and chase all hope out of the room, that's the problem. You should check it out.
I think that's putting the cart before the horse. Or as another example, it's a chicken and egg problem.

Let's take an autistic man for example, since both the two "incel killers" were autistic men. Autistic men get bullied like crazy growing up. They have high sex drives and want relationships. Women reject them massively. People in general reject them massively. There is no cure for their problem. According to one citation there, autistic men have 10 times as many suicidal thoughts and are 7.55 times more likely to die from suicide than normal men:

https://incels.wiki/w/Scientific_Bla..._as_normal_men

That's not autistic "incels" in the way people here are trying to characterize incels - that's just regular autistic men who are failing horribly at life and being left isolated, depressed, alone, and suicidal. There's no "incel forum" causing that - it's just life.

Ditto with the study saying short men have double the suicide rate of tall men:

https://incels.wiki/w/Scientific_Bla...te_of_tall_men

It's not as dramatic an effect, but anything that doubles your risk of blowing your head off in life should be considered significant. Again no "incel forum" is involved in that effect.

I don't know if incel forums make incels feel better or worse about their situation. Probably if there is a discouragement of improvement that is not good, but on the other hand it probably makes them feel less alone and gives them a place to vent. I would rather they vent their anger in Internet posts than in real life.

I'm not sure what society would otherwise intend to offer men like this. Autism is also on the rise, FYI:

https://www.hcs.harvard.edu/hghr/onl...l-perspective/

Maybe some of that is overdiagnosis, but likely it is rising as well from aging parents having babies past their most fertile years. I have read increased paternal age is associated with higher risk of autism for example.

So what are we going to do with all these people? What real actual solutions can society offer to these problems?

Last edited by TheFuture; 07-26-2019 at 08:53 PM.
  #154  
Old 07-26-2019, 08:59 PM
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They could solve this by issuing mandatory punch-cards to women. After a certain number of sexes with men that they find attractive, they would be required to sex with a short, ugly, poor, autistic Asian.
  #155  
Old 07-26-2019, 09:00 PM
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That does not make any sense at all.

Now you see that as a problem?

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G’night. I’m in the middle of a good book. And my gorgeous wife will probably want to have mind-blowing sex.

No doubt. But I guess she's going to have to settle for sex with you. {I kid, I kid! You know you walked into that one.}

By the way, my wife says I'm cute. I like to think I'm handsome, but since "beauty is in the eye of the beholder", I'm going to have to accept her judgment on the matter. And most people find her to be gorgeous. I guess the "Incel" world-view is a crock, hey?
  #156  
Old 07-26-2019, 09:03 PM
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They could solve this by issuing mandatory punch-cards to women. After a certain number of sexes with men that they find attractive, they would be required to sex with a short, ugly, poor, autistic Asian.
lmao. I'm sure the short, ugly, poor, autistic Asian man would be cool with it.

Seriously though I think sex work should be legalized as it could be therapeutic. If a woman wants to do that and she is being paid well, why does the law say she can't? In Britain they allow sex workers to service disabled men under government programs:

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/real-l...taboo-10792163

That's not a total solution but it might help a bit. Most autistic guys ARE pretty disabled according to this data. Why should disabled people be barred from even paying to experience sex or intimacy with someone who is agreeable to provide it for a fee?

Last edited by TheFuture; 07-26-2019 at 09:04 PM.
  #157  
Old 07-26-2019, 09:13 PM
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Seriously though I think sex work should be legalized as it could be therapeutic.
There are legal brothels in Nevada.
There are legal brothels in Europe.

It's not like they don't exist.
  #158  
Old 07-26-2019, 09:21 PM
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There are legal brothels in Nevada.
There are legal brothels in Europe.

It's not like they don't exist.
Sure but that's not then accessible to most men. The Mirror article on disabled men and sex workers also talks a lot about how many of the men are repeat customers. ie. The sex workers provide a long term surrogacy for the disabled men (who would almost certainly be involuntarily celibate on account of their disabilities without those sex workers).

I don't think most men want to just have sex once then say, "Well that's it, I'm good for life. My sex drive and drive for female affection has been fully satisfied." I think especially for autistic men who are covered in that article you need a long term kind of process because I think the thing autistic men want the most in addition to just sex is a sense of human connection, since that's what they're least capable of establishing.

Highly intelligent AI sex dolls could do this one day but it will be a long time until those exist in any practical sense.
  #159  
Old 07-26-2019, 09:33 PM
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Wow, I go out to dinner and this Gish Gallop is still going on. Good thing I like trainwrecks.
  #160  
Old 07-26-2019, 09:34 PM
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They could solve this by issuing mandatory punch-cards to women. After a certain number of sexes with men that they find attractive, they would be required to sex with a short, ugly, poor, autistic Asian.
Now why aren't you running for President!?!

^_^
  #161  
Old 07-26-2019, 09:36 PM
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So what are we going to do with all these people? What real actual solutions can society offer to these problems?
I seem to pair bond with men on the spectrum. Don't ask me why, I don't know. For purposes of this discussion though, you say they want relationships...I can give you a brief rundown of problems that might arise with autistic men in relationships, and incels of course have no idea of this. No matter, we're on to legalized sex work already, which is not a relationship, it's just guaranteed sex...and you're right, it may do them a world of good, the ones who would lower themselves to that.

We run into this periodically and it never fails to amaze me...that we need to find a way to fix the most misogynist, rage-fueled, openly degrading men we can think of, by fucking them. Just amazing.
  #162  
Old 07-26-2019, 09:38 PM
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I seem to pair bond with men on the spectrum. Don't ask me why, I don't know. For purposes of this discussion though, you say they want relationships...I can give you a brief rundown of problems that might arise with autistic men in relationships, and incels of course have no idea of this. No matter, we're on to legalized sex work already, which is not a relationship, it's just guaranteed sex...and you're right, it may do them a world of good, the ones who would lower themselves to that.

We run into this periodically and it never fails to amaze me...that we need to find a way to fix the most misogynist, rage-fueled, openly degrading men we can think of, by fucking them. Just amazing.
Again I don't think that's a fair judgment to say incels are the "most misogynist, rage-fueled, openly degrading men we can think of". I think guys like Ted Bundy or Josef Fritzl would have most incels beat on that metric. And I think we can reasonably say some incels are just lonely men with mental or physical problems who can't get dates, love, or sex.

Last edited by TheFuture; 07-26-2019 at 09:40 PM.
  #163  
Old 07-26-2019, 09:49 PM
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They could solve this by issuing mandatory punch-cards to women. After a certain number of sexes with men that they find attractive, they would be required to sex with a short, ugly, poor, autistic Asian.
You laugh, but on incel forums this is one of their more moderate solutions.

They honestly act like sex is bread that should be rationed, or more likely horded by them.

As for the excuses? Same old same old. If society changes its standards it won't be by incels whining about how they are short. All they have is a bunch of psychotic solutions in toxic forums brimming with digital self-harm.
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  #164  
Old 07-26-2019, 09:57 PM
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And I think we can reasonably say some incels are just lonely men with mental or physical problems who can't get dates, love, or sex.
We can, and we have, but then we would not call them incels. Incel is a word people adopt for themselves, it's not assigned to them.
  #165  
Old 07-26-2019, 10:05 PM
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Again I don't think that's a fair judgment to say incels are the "most misogynist, rage-fueled, openly degrading men we can think of". I think guys like Ted Bundy or Josef Fritzl would have most incels beat on that metric. And I think we can reasonably say some incels are just lonely men with mental or physical problems who can't get dates, love, or sex.
Are you the former, the latter or both?
  #166  
Old 07-26-2019, 10:10 PM
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We can, and we have, but then we would not call them incels. Incel is a word people adopt for themselves, it's not assigned to them.
This again. Then how do you explain the fact that some men who are clearly not misogynists like the ones in the BBC documentary call themselves incel? Or that many women now call themselves incels as well?

I just searched and found all these articles about women who say they are incels:

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeands...te-incel-woman
https://www.huckmag.com/art-and-cult...ncel-movement/
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-be-incels-too
https://quillette.com/2018/07/18/i-was-a-female-incel/
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/a...le-incels.html

So should someone tell all these women they're also using the wrong word? Those articles are all from 2018/2019 so they are current. Which word should they use? And what word should we use for the nonhateful male incels? How many more words do we need to accurately describe all these variations of people who want sex/love but aren't getting it?

This word-war nonsense people keep circling to sounds like empty SJW culture war bullshit to me. SJWs always want to talk about words all day and instruct you on which words are okay for which thing even if it's illogical and cumbersome.

An incel is an involuntary celibate. Some incels are men. Some incels are women. Some incels have misogynists beliefs. Some incels do not.

That is a far better way to use the word that actually still makes sense in the context of all the above. And we don't have to come up with a dozen new words because that word can only mean one very narrow thing now because of no good reason.
  #167  
Old 07-26-2019, 10:13 PM
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Are you the former, the latter or both?
I've done okay for myself in dating. I can definitely say I'm glad I went to university before Tinder was a thing. I'm not the tallest or best looking guy, so I have relied mostly on my personality to get women.

I can see how the current dating system could make things harder for most men than before.
  #168  
Old 07-26-2019, 10:16 PM
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That was my question in the OP exactly. If I knew the answer, I wouldn't have asked.
So it's a non issue that means nothing and you're wasting everyone's time. Got it.
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  #169  
Old 07-26-2019, 10:19 PM
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Looking at that a bit, that is interesting they got all those studies together. But those studies only tell part of the story.

Like with women preferring dark triad men. Yes women prefer them, but only for short term mating. My understanding is that for long term mating, dark triad personality traits are a negative and not a positive. Which makes sense.

Either way, by a person's late 30s nearly 80% of people are married or have been married. I'm sure an even higher % have been in committed relationships. So people of all looks and personalities end up in relationships.
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  #170  
Old 07-26-2019, 10:20 PM
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I've done okay for myself in dating. I can definitely say I'm glad I went to university before Tinder was a thing. I'm not the tallest or best looking guy, so I have relied mostly on my personality to get women.

I can see how the current dating system could make things harder for most men than before.
And that worked?
  #171  
Old 07-26-2019, 10:24 PM
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This word-war nonsense people keep circling to sounds like empty SJW culture war bullshit to me. SJWs always want to talk about words all day and instruct you on which words are okay for which thing even if it's illogical and cumbersome.
In this case it's warranted. You don't assign the word "incel" to people because of the hateful connotations, which you know nothing about by your own admission. "Involuntary celibate" might work if we really need an all-inclusive word, I mean the extra letters are free, but I would defer to others on that.
  #172  
Old 07-26-2019, 10:30 PM
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And that worked?
Sure. Why not? I have a top tier personality in my opinion in terms of wit, intelligence, charisma, etc. I also have a bit of some Dark Triad traits myself and maybe a bit of ADHD too. The Dark Triad stuff and even ADHD interestingly enough are supported by that data as attractive to women.

The studies linked didn't say personality didn't matter. They just said it didn't matter in the ways most people think. And that it matters less than Looks. One of the studies there says the importance is: Looks > Personality > Money for both genders.

For my part, nowadays I do better on speed dating than I do online, since I get swiped left online, but IRL I can make a girl laugh etc. Most dating culture is becoming more swipe oriented so it's easy to see how looks can become even more important. Most of my dating was before online dating was a big thing.

I also don't believe most of your personality is malleable. Eg. You can't teach someone to be smarter, or less autistic. Most people's personalities don't change that much over their lives, except perhaps after major trauma or over many years of failure/success.

Last edited by TheFuture; 07-26-2019 at 10:31 PM.
  #173  
Old 07-26-2019, 10:38 PM
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In this case it's warranted. You don't assign the word "incel" to people because of the hateful connotations, which you know nothing about by your own admission. "Involuntary celibate" might work if we really need an all-inclusive word, I mean the extra letters are free, but I would defer to others on that.
Yeah except I linked many recent articles that are not using the word the way you are suggesting it must be used, and are instead using it the way I am using it. So I think my usage is entirely fine, and as I said, it is far simpler, more correct, and more logical.

Let's look at the implication of your usage.

Say we have an "incel forum". Then say a man who is involuntarily celibate starts posting on it but he harbors no misogyny and no violent thoughts. He is just a lonely man looking to talk to people in the same position. Let's say a certain percent of the users of that forum can be described that way on an ongoing basis.

Then what? Are we saying even the "involuntarily celibate" men using incel forums aren't really all incel? So only a certain percent of "incel" men are actually incel? Do you not see how cumbersome and brain melting that becomes?

In no other area is a word warped like this. Eg. We don't call all suicide bombers "muslims" and then say we can't use that word for other muslims anymore because it only applies to ones that strap bombs to themselves so we will call normal muslims "followers of islam" from now on. We call them "radical muslims" or "muslim extremists" and still use the word muslim to describe the whole group.

Why can't we use the same logic here? How is it not more logical to use it the way I am and the women in those articles are?

Last edited by TheFuture; 07-26-2019 at 10:39 PM.
  #174  
Old 07-26-2019, 10:47 PM
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That was my question in the OP exactly. If I knew the answer, I wouldn't have asked.
Oh, so now you DO have solutions...

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lmao. I'm sure the short, ugly, poor, autistic Asian man would be cool with it.

Seriously though I think sex work should be legalized as it could be therapeutic. If a woman wants to do that and she is being paid well, why does the law say she can't? In Britain they allow sex workers to service disabled men under government programs:

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/real-l...taboo-10792163

That's not a total solution but it might help a bit. Most autistic guys ARE pretty disabled according to this data. Why should disabled people be barred from even paying to experience sex or intimacy with someone who is agreeable to provide it for a fee?
I'm sure you have plenty of more ideas. Please share them.

Personally, I have no problems with legalizing prostitution. But I also want there to be good policing to prevent trafficking. Where the line is, I'm not sure.
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  #175  
Old 07-26-2019, 10:54 PM
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I'm sure you have plenty of more ideas. Please share them.
We can do without the ones concerning scat fetishes, though.
  #176  
Old 07-26-2019, 11:00 PM
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Oh, so now you DO have solutions...



I'm sure you have plenty of more ideas. Please share them.

Personally, I have no problems with legalizing prostitution. But I also want there to be good policing to prevent trafficking. Where the line is, I'm not sure.
You're a real pleasant guy to talk to, you know that? I can almost imagine you sneering through the screen with every reply.

I already said the only ideas I can come up with. Prostitution now. Sex robots eventually. Or maybe we can make our culture less sex oriented so people don't think it's as important as they do now. I was thinking maybe that's what's happened in Japan, and while people here want to tell me I'm wrong about the Japanese, no one can seem to explain how they managed to get such massive celibacy levels without all the "incel problems" that the west supposedly has. It would be useful to figure that out I think. I've offered my initial theories on that.

When I was writing about autistic men's suicide rates a minute ago, I was also wondering if in person support groups would be good for this sort of thing. I don't know what the true solution to autism is. It seems like a pretty bleak and lonely existence. I'm sure as fuck glad I don't have to deal with that.
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Old 07-26-2019, 11:15 PM
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You're a real pleasant guy to talk to, you know that? I can almost imagine you sneering through the screen with every reply.

I already said the only ideas I can come up with. Prostitution now. Sex robots eventually. Or maybe we can make our culture less sex oriented so people don't think it's as important as they do now. I was thinking maybe that's what's happened in Japan, and while people here want to tell me I'm wrong about the Japanese, no one can seem to explain how they managed to get such massive celibacy levels without all the "incel problems" that the west supposedly has. It would be useful to figure that out I think. I've offered my initial theories on that.

When I was writing about autistic men's suicide rates a minute ago, I was also wondering if in person support groups would be good for this sort of thing. I don't know what the true solution to autism is. It seems like a pretty bleak and lonely existence. I'm sure as fuck glad I don't have to deal with that.
I sneer because there is no scientific study that could or should trump consent. If women don't wanna fuck somebody for whatever reason, that's their prerogative. It's up to the guys to make themselves fuckable. Either with money or, God forbid, improving their personality. I feel real bad for autistic guys who have a hard time with this. But...sorry, you can't impose your will upon the unwilling. Which, inevitably, is where all these incel conversations lead. ALL of them.
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  #178  
Old 07-26-2019, 11:21 PM
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I sneer because there is no scientific study that could or should trump consent. If women don't wanna fuck somebody for whatever reason, that's their prerogative. It's up to the guys to make themselves fuckable. Either with money or, God forbid, improving their personality. I feel real bad for autistic guys who have a hard time with this. But...sorry, you can't impose your will upon the unwilling. Which, inevitably, is where all these incel conversations lead. ALL of them.
I don't see why that should have to be the end point of the conversation. That's pretty narrow minded to think we can't solve a problem unless someone gets raped.

I think we can do better than that.
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Old 07-26-2019, 11:22 PM
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Why can't we use the same logic here? How is it not more logical to use it the way I am and the women in those articles are?
The femcel cites were interesting. Not the older, divorced or widowed women using the term unknowingly, and not the ripsnorting bullshit at Quillette, but the ones who claimed to be a part of the incel boards. Note that one had to pretend to be a man in the forums. I'm not sure what this proves to you. It supports my saying that “incel” is not indicative of both genders, because the misogyny is unavoidable and women are typically banned from there. The term is going to be problematic no matter how determined you are to restore its rightful place in the world.
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Old 07-26-2019, 11:25 PM
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I don't see why that should have to be the end point of the conversation. That's pretty narrow minded to think we can't solve a problem unless someone gets raped.

I think we can do better than that.
I'm just tired of the bullshit. Just say what you came here to say from the very moment you started this thread.

If you legitimately have some sort of solution, some end game, some wonder cure, just please say it. THEN we can START the discussion.
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  #181  
Old 07-26-2019, 11:46 PM
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I'm just tired of the bullshit. Just say what you came here to say from the very moment you started this thread.

If you legitimately have some sort of solution, some end game, some wonder cure, just please say it. THEN we can START the discussion.
What the hell kind of thing is that to say? You're saying I have to have the solution to a problem no one in society has been able to offer a good solution on in order to even start a discussion about how to solve it?

Since when is that how a discussion works? I just gave my only ideas. You just replied to them so I know you read them. If we need to start at a solution in order to discuss anything, are those not good enough?

I was hoping other people might have some other ideas or thoughts as well.
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Old 07-26-2019, 11:48 PM
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The femcel cites were interesting. Not the older, divorced or widowed women using the term unknowingly, and not the ripsnorting bullshit at Quillette, but the ones who claimed to be a part of the incel boards. Note that one had to pretend to be a man in the forums. I'm not sure what this proves to you. It supports my saying that “incel” is not indicative of both genders, because the misogyny is unavoidable and women are typically banned from there. The term is going to be problematic no matter how determined you are to restore its rightful place in the world.
It doesn't matter what I do. As long as women continue to apply the word "incel" to themselves you will continue to be wrong.
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Old 07-26-2019, 11:48 PM
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What the hell kind of thing is that to say? You're saying I have to have the solution to a problem no one in society has been able to offer a good solution on in order to even start a discussion about how to solve it?

Since when is that how a discussion works? I just gave my only ideas. You just replied to them so I know you read them. If we need to start at a solution in order to discuss anything, are those not good enough?

I was hoping other people might have some other ideas or thoughts as well.
How many times do you need to hear/read "incels need to work on themselves and not blame others" for you to get it?
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Old 07-26-2019, 11:52 PM
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How many times do you need to hear/read "incels need to work on themselves and not blame others" for you to get it?
That's a nice platitude but it doesn't actually solve anything for the ones that still won't make the cut after "working on themselves and not blaming others." I mean, so an autistic man "works on himself", still doesn't get a girlfriend, and then blows his brains out from loneliness at 7.55x times the rate as a normal man.

Problem solved, huh? That's still the best we can do?
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Old 07-26-2019, 11:54 PM
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What the hell kind of thing is that to say? You're saying I have to have the solution to a problem no one in society has been able to offer a good solution on in order to even start a discussion about how to solve it?

Since when is that how a discussion works? I just gave my only ideas. You just replied to them so I know you read them. If we need to start at a solution in order to discuss anything, are those not good enough?

I was hoping other people might have some other ideas or thoughts as well.
Also, I'm 90% sure you have had an idea to solve this problem from the very beginning. But now that we've already called bullshit on it, you are backpedaling.
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Old 07-26-2019, 11:56 PM
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empty SJW culture war bullshit
Oh okay, we're going there now. I'll make my exit and leave you to your whining then.
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Old 07-26-2019, 11:57 PM
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That's a nice platitude but it doesn't actually solve anything for the ones that still won't make the cut after "working on themselves and not blaming others." I mean, so an autistic man "works on himself", still doesn't get a girlfriend, and then blows his brains out from loneliness at 7.55x times the rate as a normal man.

Problem solved, huh? That's still the best we can do?
So you're saying they SHOULD blame others? Or are you just ignoring what all "working on themselves" actually can entail?
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  #188  
Old 07-27-2019, 12:02 AM
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Originally Posted by snfaulkner View Post
So you're saying they SHOULD blame others? Or are you just ignoring what all "working on themselves" actually can entail?
What does blame have to do with wanting to help someone who is suffering and suicidal? We have all sorts of initiatives to help people when they are desperate. eg. Most places have some form of welfare for people who can't get a job. If someone needs to take advantage of such a service, it doesn't mean that person should "blame someone" for the fact that they can't get a job or not work on trying to get a job. It just means we recognize they need a bit of help and we're willing to provide it until hopefully they can succeed on their own. Or if they are permanently disabled, we typically support them indefinitely.

I'm not saying those are equivalent problems or solutions. Just that "blame" has nothing to do with the equation. Eg. No one intends to have an autistic child and no person intends to be born autistic. Ditto with deformities or other problems. So how can anyone be blamed for it?

Are you a social Darwinist in general or just on this issue? I have nothing against someone who is a social Darwinist as long as they are applying the principle consistently across the board.

Last edited by TheFuture; 07-27-2019 at 12:04 AM.
  #189  
Old 07-27-2019, 12:14 AM
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Originally Posted by TheFuture View Post
What does blame have to do with wanting to help someone who is suffering and suicidal? We have all sorts of initiatives to help people when they are desperate. eg. Most places have some form of welfare for people who can't get a job. If someone needs to take advantage of such a service, it doesn't mean that person should "blame someone" for the fact that they can't get a job or not work on trying to get a job. It just means we recognize they need a bit of help and we're willing to provide it until hopefully they can succeed on their own. Or if they are permanently disabled, we typically support them indefinitely.

I'm not saying those are equivalent problems or solutions. Just that "blame" has nothing to do with the equation. Eg. No one intends to have an autistic child and no person intends to be born autistic. Ditto with deformities or other problems. So how can anyone be blamed for it?

Are you a social Darwinist in general or just on this issue? I have nothing against someone who is a social Darwinist as long as they are applying the principle consistently across the board.
I wasn't saying they should blame anyone. I was asking you if they should.

So since we're in agreement on that, ok. You've mentioned giving them help. I'm all for that. Psychological/psychiatric help can work wonders. That is but one part of...listen carefully...working on themselves. Or do you have a different idea about giving them "a bit of help"?
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  #190  
Old 07-27-2019, 12:30 AM
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Originally Posted by snfaulkner View Post
I wasn't saying they should blame anyone. I was asking you if they should.

So since we're in agreement on that, ok. You've mentioned giving them help. I'm all for that. Psychological/psychiatric help can work wonders. That is but one part of...listen carefully...working on themselves. Or do you have a different idea about giving them "a bit of help"?
Yes, I do have a different idea about that. I don't think forceably drugging people up on antidepressants or telling them to talk to a shrink for an hour a week will healthily overcome their natural male drive for a partner or sex or companionship which are probably the strongest drives we have after eating, drinking, and sleeping. It's that drive that propagated the species to this point, so of course it is a strong one. I think solutions should recognize that. Which is why I think for example legalized prostitution like they describe in that Mirror article could do more good than 1000 shrinks and 1000000 antidepressants. It's not like psychiatrists can cure autism or many of the other issues that might make someone incel.

The notion that most incels probably just have one simple problem with their personality ("misogyny!") and otherwise they'd do fine in dating is almost certainly false. The world has lots of disabled, deformed, mentally ill, terribly ugly, and otherwise abnormal people in it. It seems inevitable some percent of those people will absolutely end up involuntarily celibate and they won't be able to "work on themselves" sufficiently to be able to compete with the guys who were born far better off.

I mean sure, everyone should "work on themselves", but what happens to the ones where that is not enough? Or they try and fail?

Why can't we recognize that people have a natural desire for companionship, sex, relationships, and love, which is actually healthy for them to fulfill? And then try to offer them some facsimile of that if we can't give them the real thing? Wouldn't that make more sense to try to accomplish?
  #191  
Old 07-27-2019, 12:49 AM
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Yes, I do have a different idea about that. I don't think forceably
Let me stop you right there. I am vehemently against forcing anyone to give up their own autonomy as long as they aren't infringing on others' autonomy. Tho I admit there might be some debatable exceptions. So far you haven't convinced me of such.

Quote:
...forcing drugging people up on antidepressants or telling them to talk to a shrink for an hour a week will healthily overcome their natural male drive for a partner or sex or companionship which are probably the strongest drives we have after eating, drinking, and sleeping.
who's generalizing now?

Quote:
It's that drive that propagated the species to this point, so of course it is a strong one. I think solutions should recognize that. Which is why I think for example legalized prostitution like they describe in that Mirror article could do more good than 1000 shrinks and 1000000 antidepressants. It's not like psychiatrists can cure autism or many of the other issues that might make someone incel.

The notion that most incels probably just have one simple problem with their personality ("misogyny!")
i think most here are saying it's more than that
Quote:

and otherwise they'd do fine in dating is almost certainly false. The world has lots of disabled, deformed, mentally ill, terribly ugly, and otherwise abnormal people in it. It seems inevitable some percent of those people will absolutely end up involuntarily celibate and they won't be able to "work on themselves" sufficiently to be able to compete with the guys who were born far better off.

I mean sure, everyone should "work on themselves", but what happens to the ones where that is not enough? Or they try and fail?
you tell me. Please, just say what you have been dancing around this whole time
Quote:


Why can't we recognize that people have a natural desire for companionship, sex, relationships, and love, which is actually healthy for them to fulfill?
we do already.
Quote:
And then try to offer them some facsimile of that if we can't give them the real thing? Wouldn't that make more sense to try to accomplish?
Again, please stop wasting everyone's time and say what you came here to say.
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  #192  
Old 07-27-2019, 01:01 AM
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Originally Posted by snfaulkner View Post
Let me stop you right there. I am vehemently against forcing anyone to give up their own autonomy as long as they aren't infringing on others' autonomy. Tho I admit there might be some debatable exceptions. So far you haven't convinced me of such.

who's generalizing now?

i think most here are saying it's more than that you tell me. Please, just say what you have been dancing around this whole time we do already.

Again, please stop wasting everyone's time and say what you came here to say.
I'm sorry to disappoint you, but that's the extent of my thoughts on the matter. If you've exhausted your idea supply as well, then perhaps we can stop talking and wait to see if anyone else has any other ideas or thoughts?

Last edited by TheFuture; 07-27-2019 at 01:02 AM.
  #193  
Old 07-27-2019, 01:21 AM
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I agree with everyone who says that the spin and conclusions drawn from this body of research are, shall we say...unfortunate. But can we also acknowledge that these study findings are in and of themselves rather hair raising, even if what is left out is the even darker picture of men that could be painted by looking at a different set of studies? While incels and the MRA crowd are definitely full of shit, the evidence would tend to lead an objective observer to the conclusion that social scientists, ardent feminists, and the politically correct Twitterati are also just as full of feces.

Last edited by SlackerInc; 07-27-2019 at 01:23 AM.
  #194  
Old 07-27-2019, 02:49 AM
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Originally Posted by TheFuture View Post
Yes, I do have a different idea about that. I don't think forceably drugging people up on antidepressants or telling them to talk to a shrink for an hour a week will healthily overcome their natural male drive for a partner or sex or companionship which are probably the strongest drives we have after eating, drinking, and sleeping. It's that drive that propagated the species to this point, so of course it is a strong one. I think solutions should recognize that. Which is why I think for example legalized prostitution like they describe in that Mirror article could do more good than 1000 shrinks and 1000000 antidepressants. It's not like psychiatrists can cure autism or many of the other issues that might make someone incel.

The notion that most incels probably just have one simple problem with their personality ("misogyny!") and otherwise they'd do fine in dating is almost certainly false. The world has lots of disabled, deformed, mentally ill, terribly ugly, and otherwise abnormal people in it. It seems inevitable some percent of those people will absolutely end up involuntarily celibate and they won't be able to "work on themselves" sufficiently to be able to compete with the guys who were born far better off.
Are you saying that most incels are autistic, terribly ugly disabled and/or mentally ill?

BTW, while sex work might be illegal in many places, if an incel cannot find a sex worker you can add stupidity to their many other fine qualities. But I don't think access to prostitutes would help them much in the long run.
Might I remind you that Stephen Hawking had an affair - and I doubt you can find many men more disabled than he was.
  #195  
Old 07-27-2019, 03:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
Picking one bullet point at random:
Quote:
More men are raped in the USA every year than women
<...snip by Dibble>
More men are raped in the U.S. than woman, according to figures that include sexual abuse in prisons.
In 2008, it was estimated 216,000 inmates were sexually assaulted while serving time, according to the Department of Justice figures.
That is compared to 90,479 rape cases outside of prison.
<...snip by Dibble...>
Peer-reviewed journals, my ass.
Here's a pretty comprehensive takedown of that one.
tl;dr version:
  1. Compares numbers for prison sexual assault (which definition includes unwanted touch and attempted rape) with numbers for actual rape outside
  2. Compares self-assessed prison numbers with numbers of rapes officially reported
  3. Uses prison numbers that include women prisoners (who reportedly have higher rates of sexual assault in prison than men)
1 is the absolute killer for me.
So yeah, if the other cites are as bullshit as that one, I would not be surprised.

Last edited by MrDibble; 07-27-2019 at 03:35 AM.
  #196  
Old 07-27-2019, 04:26 AM
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Oh okay, we're going there now. I'll make my exit and leave you to your whining then.

I mean, yes, but at the same time, dude. Incel defender. OF COURSE that's where we were going. It's pretty much also where we started, so at least the trek was uneventful.
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  #197  
Old 07-27-2019, 06:20 AM
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Originally Posted by TheFuture View Post
That's a nice platitude but it doesn't actually solve anything for the ones that still won't make the cut after "working on themselves and not blaming others." I mean, so an autistic man "works on himself", still doesn't get a girlfriend, and then blows his brains out from loneliness at 7.55x times the rate as a normal man.

Problem solved, huh? That's still the best we can do?
You have to start someplace. Focus on the ones who CAN "make the cut" after "working on themselves and not blaming others." You'll make a significant dent in the problem and there won't be as many unhappy men. Yes, there will still be some who are unhappy. Do what you can now and work on the rest later. Why isn't that acceptable to you?? There isn't one solution that will work for everyone. But you aren't even willing to entertain what would work for many. So it's understandable that people think you have a motive with all this verbose bullshit.
  #198  
Old 07-27-2019, 06:56 AM
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Legalizing prostitution wouldn't really change anything for incels (though I'm still in favor of it, and other proposals to give more rights and dignity to sex workers). Prostitution is still ubiquitous in America and most other places, and unless you're a complete idiot, very easy to utilize without getting in trouble (in my understanding, not my personal experience ). If incels are consumed with anger and bitterness over a lack of sex with women, and nothing else, then it would be trivially easy, with a relatively low risk (or no risk if they take a vacation to Nevada), to hire a prostitute.
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  #199  
Old 07-27-2019, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by TheFuture View Post
Why can't we recognize that people have a natural desire for companionship, sex, relationships, and love, which is actually healthy for them to fulfill? ?
It is healthy to get up off your ass and put in some work to find a partner. Every life-improvement project involves work.

Quote:
And then try to offer them some facsimile of that if we can't give them the real thing?
There are plenty of facsimiles. Porn, for instance. But facsimile isn't really enough for you, is it?

Quote:
Wouldn't that make more sense to try to accomplish?
It makes sense for YOU to try to accomplish that. Either accomplish it, or accomplish therapy to deal with the disappointment. You are not entitled to have anyone else accomplish it, no matter how much sophistry and wheedling you deploy.
  #200  
Old 07-27-2019, 08:56 AM
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The sources themselves are perfectly solid.

Sources that were cited:

University of Richmond
Pew Social Trends
National Center for Biotechnology Information (NCBI)
SAGE Journal
Research Gate
National Bureau of Economic Research
Bureau of Justice Statistics
Research Direct
Journal of the American Academy of Child & Adolescent Psychiatry
BBC
University of Chicago
Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences
Stanford University


If we weren't discussing incel-dom, but rather, some other psychological topic such as adolescent education or drug addiction, most Dopers would accept such sources without a second thought. IOW, the reason the sources are being rejected is not because of the sources themselves, but because of the incels citing them.
An argument requires more than sources to be valid; the information from said sources has to be used correctly.
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