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  #101  
Old 12-29-2019, 12:12 AM
Jonathan Chance is offline
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So crimes and sex abuses by elected officials are all dealt with solely by impeachment? It's never a legal matter?
It can be and in some cases it is. But not for the President at the constitution is currently interpreted. It can become a legal matter, but only after impeachment.

In terms of elected officials? There have certainly been the amusing cases where an elected official HAS been prosecuted while in office, has been convicted and sentenced to prison and still held that office because the courts don't wish to invalidate the sovereign will of the voters. That's what happens if you have a conviction without an impeachment and removal.

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In the Senate, a convicted Senator can still vote if present, but the party leadership can change their committee status. And technically, absent their expulsion from Congress, a member can serve while in jail and run for re-election, unless they are convicted of treason.
  #102  
Old 12-29-2019, 12:26 AM
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Well, you made the statement about her professional warning, what did you mean by it?
I meant that she was delivering a professional warning.

And you disagreed with it?
  #103  
Old 12-29-2019, 12:33 AM
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It can be and in some cases it is. But not for the President at the constitution is currently interpreted. It can become a legal matter, but only after impeachment.

In terms of elected officials? There have certainly been the amusing cases where an elected official HAS been prosecuted while in office, has been convicted and sentenced to prison and still held that office because the courts don't wish to invalidate the sovereign will of the voters. That's what happens if you have a conviction without an impeachment and removal.
What is the legal status of a matter that leads to impeachment? Basically DAs keeping files for the future?
  #104  
Old 12-29-2019, 12:38 AM
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It has been official Department of Justice policy for decades that a sitting President cannot be indicted for a criminal act while in office. All such prosecutions are held until that President is out of office through one of the four paths I outlined in an earlier post. Should Trump be removed through impeachment early next year I feel he'll certainly have an interesting time of it with criminal charges being filed. I believe the Southern District of NY would already like to have words with him but have indicated they're willing to wait.

Civil issues CAN go forward as they did for Bill Clinton.

But your railing to the skies that all that somehow doesn't apply? It's nonsense, of course. It does apply. It's established policy since at least the Nixon administration and has continued straight through until today.

An election is truly a sovereign act. Nothing save Impeachment will override that. The courts have been pretty clear on respecting the choice of the voters and I don't see any court being willing to suddenly go against that precedent.
He needs the pressure of this even if he cannot be removed now.

toirnop is a fascist and he needs to be defeated in more ways than court or even the ballot box. Light a candle instead of berating activists. He needs to be humiiated. And these suits by conscientious acticists however they go are necessary.

Last edited by drad dog; 12-29-2019 at 12:40 AM.
  #105  
Old 12-29-2019, 12:45 AM
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Where are the board's conservatives? The one time they can legitimately rag us about Trump Derangement Syndrome and they're blowing it! Oh well, I suppose that always being in the wrong is what makes them conservatives.

Have fun. I'm checking out. Somebody let me know if they show up and get in some good zingers. I'm sure the thread, despite already going in circles, is good for another three days at least.
It's political, meaning it's about perceptions and the impulses of notional voters. So attempts to bring ternps mind to the public square are political and affect the reality as all things do which may affect public opinion. This should not even have to be said.

So all attempt to silence activists are regressive. It shuts off avenues of vulnerability for tuoirnp. Keep doing that assholes work for him.

I suppose there is a big contingent here of "Lets not scare or rile the republicans or else they will really do mean things to us in the future"

Theer are activists who have perfectly valid insights as worthy as that, or more to share and they have real effects in the world. Politics.

Last edited by drad dog; 12-29-2019 at 12:48 AM.
  #106  
Old 12-29-2019, 12:51 AM
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What is the legal status of a matter that leads to impeachment? Basically DAs keeping files for the future?
Yes, exactly so. DAs or other prosecutors can sit on their indictments until such time as the President CAN be prosecuted...i.e. when he's no longer President.
  #107  
Old 12-29-2019, 12:54 AM
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I meant that she was delivering a professional warning.

And you disagreed with it?

As I said, I don't think Trump qualifies for an involuntary mental health hold.
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  #108  
Old 12-29-2019, 12:57 AM
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He needs the pressure of this even if he cannot be removed now.

toirnop is a fascist and he needs to be defeated in more ways than court or even the ballot box. Light a candle instead of berating activists. He needs to be humiiated. And these suits by conscientious acticists however they go are necessary.
No, not really. They're feel good statements that accomplish little and waste resources. Every erg of energy, every dollar spent and so forth is one that could be spent electing more like-minded people. No half-assed article in Salon - designed, in truth, to accomplish nothing except get people who are already outraged even further into irrationality - will accomplish as much as someone who phone banks.

I work on campaigns all over the country. I organize letter writing campaigns, help write call scripts, help educate local candidates on issues. I do everything except raise money (I'm not allowed to do so) and I'll contribute more to removing Trump and electing a lefty congress than Bandy Lee will ever do writing a motivated article to people who are already highly motivated to vote.
  #109  
Old 12-29-2019, 03:44 AM
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How many ways are there to misspell Trump?
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  #110  
Old 12-29-2019, 03:53 AM
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Hard disagree, she's not right about his mind and psyche. Narcissism and grandiosity may well be dangerous in the powerful, and Trump may well be unfit, but the kind of holds discussed in that opinion piece apply to people who are imminently, creditably homicidal, suicidal or gravely disabled, Trump is not.
It is not my area of practice, but this is my understanding as well. The idea is that I can be incredibly mentally unbalanced, be like Howard Hughes keeping my urine in jars, shut everyone out, yell at the neighborhood kids, and collect dead bugs I find, name them and have funerals for them.

In a free country, I can do all of that. The only time the power of the state will prevent my eccentricities is when I become an imminent danger either to myself or others.

We have nothing close to that here.
  #111  
Old 12-29-2019, 12:06 PM
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How many ways are there to misspell Trump?
Strangely enough it's the same number of ways there are to spell Shakespeare.
  #112  
Old 12-29-2019, 12:13 PM
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No, not really. They're feel good statements that accomplish little and waste resources. Every erg of energy, every dollar spent and so forth is one that could be spent electing more like-minded people. No half-assed article in Salon - designed, in truth, to accomplish nothing except get people who are already outraged even further into irrationality - will accomplish as much as someone who phone banks.

I work on campaigns all over the country. I organize letter writing campaigns, help write call scripts, help educate local candidates on issues. I do everything except raise money (I'm not allowed to do so) and I'll contribute more to removing Trump and electing a lefty congress than Bandy Lee will ever do writing a motivated article to people who are already highly motivated to vote.
Thanks for your work.

What is it about activism though that pisses you off? She is pretty clearly speaking in public, and reaching out in the most effective way she can. The things you are doing are not perfectly effective either. Why all the vinegar for Lee on here? So no activism can be valid because they can't get onto fox and one america news? BS.

To me there is a reality bubble around toirnap, and all the hand wringing and warning about not disturbing that bubble??? Wow. You are not doing one thing about it. She is.
  #113  
Old 12-29-2019, 12:49 PM
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I don't agree that this is a valid professional warning,.
What is a "valid professional warning"?
  #114  
Old 12-29-2019, 01:12 PM
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What is a "valid professional warning"?
I don’t want to speak for outlierrn, of course. But I believe they are referring to an actual warning of a diagnosable condition that authorities could act upon.

And it can’t be, of course. As has been pointed out, Lee has not met Trump and cannot, therefore, have actually diagnosed him.
  #115  
Old 12-29-2019, 01:47 PM
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I don’t want to speak for outlierrn, of course. But I believe they are referring to an actual warning of a diagnosable condition that authorities could act upon.

And it can’t be, of course. As has been pointed out, Lee has not met Trump and cannot, therefore, have actually diagnosed him.
OK. I don't think she is claiming to have met him or diagnosed him professionally. I think she is acting under "duty to warn" doctrines. And that is already a part of the coverage of her and her message. So I don't see deception or disingenuousness in it. And it doesn't sound like she is a loony liberal or a crazy leftist or any of the names that some democrats here will give to outliers who upset them. If she is really the problem now then we might as well pack it in.

Last edited by drad dog; 12-29-2019 at 01:48 PM.
  #116  
Old 12-29-2019, 01:49 PM
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How many ways are there to misspell Trump?
Tramp
Tromp
Stump
Stumpf
Drumpf * (previous)
Drimpfle
Trimpfle
Chump
Putin's Puppy
Felon
  #117  
Old 12-29-2019, 01:58 PM
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triumphalism

triumphallic symbol

Last edited by drad dog; 12-29-2019 at 02:00 PM.
  #118  
Old 12-29-2019, 02:26 PM
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In a free country, I can do all of that. The only time the power of the state will prevent my eccentricities is when I become an imminent danger either to myself or others.
Yes, but there should be a more discriminating bar when it comes to the guy who literally holds nuclear launch codes.

Howard Hughes wasn't hurting anyone; POTUS could kill a hundred million people in a half an hour. That's a distinction that seems lost on you.

Last edited by HMS Irruncible; 12-29-2019 at 02:27 PM.
  #119  
Old 12-29-2019, 03:33 PM
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Yes, but there should be a more discriminating bar when it comes to the guy who literally holds nuclear launch codes.

Howard Hughes wasn't hurting anyone; POTUS could kill a hundred million people in a half an hour. That's a distinction that seems lost on you.
Right. He is a job holder, and also a job seeker, and we are the employers.

His strength and inertia are just about the peculiar and unreformed laws around potuses. Got to do something about that. But he is not a regular citizen. He is not even pleading for any right that any citizen has. He is pleading theoretical non existent legal theories of immunity.

He should not have to be held anyway, to be removed as psychologically unfit, by publically available evidence, no less. You don't need to meet with someone to know he needs to go on the kinds of morals or conduct charges that prevail in other indistries.

Last edited by drad dog; 12-29-2019 at 03:38 PM.
  #120  
Old 12-29-2019, 04:16 PM
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is really pretty outrageous in the context of such a professional warning.
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Originally Posted by drad dog View Post
What is a "valid professional warning"?


Again, this is your term, why do you keep asking me to explain it?



I am not commenting on the 25th amendment, nor what should or ought to be the standards applied to the POTUS.



With regards to an involuntary mental health hold, such as referenced in that article as something a family member or co-worker can initiate, a valid example would be a secret service agent reporting that Trump demanded his weapon in order to prove he could shoot someone on 5th avenue with impunity.
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  #121  
Old 12-29-2019, 04:28 PM
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Again, this is your term, why do you keep asking me to explain it?



I am not commenting on the 25th amendment, nor what should or ought to be the standards applied to the POTUS.



With regards to an involuntary mental health hold, such as referenced in that article as something a family member or co-worker can initiate, a valid example would be a secret service agent reporting that Trump demanded his weapon in order to prove he could shoot someone on 5th avenue with impunity.
I was using common English. And you didn't even ask me what I meant about it. You made a factual assertion about it.

If you do that I may ask you to define the terms as you understand them, when you make such an assertion. It's not necessary now. Dead issue.
  #122  
Old 12-29-2019, 05:52 PM
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Yes, but there should be a more discriminating bar when it comes to the guy who literally holds nuclear launch codes.

Howard Hughes wasn't hurting anyone; POTUS could kill a hundred million people in a half an hour. That's a distinction that seems lost on you.
There is a more discriminating bar: the 25th Amendment.
  #123  
Old 12-29-2019, 06:00 PM
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[Piper tags Ultra Vires]. Your turn citing the 25th! I'm tuckered out!

Last edited by Northern Piper; 12-29-2019 at 06:00 PM.
  #124  
Old 12-29-2019, 11:13 PM
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I was using common English.
Common English has no place in legal discussions. Whip out the Latin.
  #125  
Old 12-30-2019, 12:03 PM
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I have to wonder if the response to a white man challenging the soveriegnty of a President Hillary would be similar to this? Even liberals would be piling on and jumping up and down with excitement.

What do you think? I'd say it's a one way street.

A woman of color doing it to a rich old white guy, it just crosses party lines unconsciously. It's just not right. And we are not going to take it.
  #126  
Old 12-30-2019, 12:12 PM
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It amazes me how small we think. The potus is mad, and he is bringing his party along with him to psychosis. Removing him, or having pedantic conversations about what it takes to do so is the most petty insignificant part of it...

This could be the end of the rebupkis party. They are lying madly in public, on film. I mean it's prime time for that. Removing trump would be like popping a zit compared to what could do. We need to make it so the right wing has no way to coallesce around a fascist again.

It means not trying to separate toirniop from his enablers, and arguing about the details of "removal law", but actually tying them together with weights so they can't ever rise or be untied again.

Last edited by drad dog; 12-30-2019 at 12:14 PM.
  #127  
Old 12-30-2019, 01:46 PM
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Where are the board's conservatives? The one time they can legitimately rag us about Trump Derangement Syndrome and they're blowing it! Oh well, I suppose that always being in the wrong is what makes them conservatives.

Have fun. I'm checking out. Somebody let me know if they show up and get in some good zingers. I'm sure the thread, despite already going in circles, is good for another three days at least.
What conservative can either parse what drad_dog is saying or come up with any zinger better than the self inflicted ones? Nobody is having much luck overcoming the disconnect with reality here, even with repetition.
  #128  
Old 12-30-2019, 02:03 PM
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It amazes me how small we think. The potus is mad, and he is bringing his party along with him to psychosis. Removing him, or having pedantic conversations about what it takes to do so is the most petty insignificant part of it...

This could be the end of the rebupkis party. They are lying madly in public, on film. I mean it's prime time for that. Removing trump would be like popping a zit compared to what could do. We need to make it so the right wing has no way to coallesce around a fascist again.

It means not trying to separate toirniop from his enablers, and arguing about the details of "removal law", but actually tying them together with weights so they can't ever rise or be untied again.
Sadly, I have to agree that the actions of the rabid asshole Republicans have ruined it for those of us who are old school [fiscally conservative, socially liberal] Republicans.

I wish that there were some way that us nonelected official citizen folks could force something like a vote of no confidence and make Trump get some no shit real intervention.

I mean, I would *love* to see him sitting in something like a classic court room scene, judge and jury, a witness chair, officials and being sworn in and a screen where they show every single lie individually [with perhaps a count of how many times it was repeated by him] in a short video or audio clip, or tweet screen capture and he has to admit that yes he lied ... for however many lies he told to date in office ... because I know he would try and claim that each time he was telling the truth. I would love to see a panel of qualified doctors sit there and tag team interview him and come to a proper diagnosis that he didn't pay them to say he was sane. I would actually love for him to actually go off into a violent frothing rampage on national television that couldn't be covered up. I would love for him to have a violent frothing fit in some meeting of the UN or something - stroking out would be phenomenal, but I do stop short of wishing him dead - permanently hospitalized in a loony bin or permanently in a prison would be fantastic.

And this is coming from a life long *Republican*. *sigh*
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  #129  
Old 12-30-2019, 03:52 PM
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I have to wonder if the response to a white man challenging the soveriegnty of a President Hillary would be similar to this? Even liberals would be piling on and jumping up and down with excitement.

What do you think? I'd say it's a one way street.

A woman of color doing it to a rich old white guy, it just crosses party lines unconsciously. It's just not right. And we are not going to take it.
You got me. Sure, if this psychiatrist was a white guy, I would be all for suspending the constitution and allowing a president to be removed by this ridiculous procedure. Any white guy will do.
  #130  
Old 12-30-2019, 04:34 PM
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You got me. Sure, if this psychiatrist was a white guy, I would be all for suspending the constitution and allowing a president to be removed by this ridiculous procedure. Any white guy will do.
Touche my friend, touche.
  #131  
Old 12-30-2019, 04:35 PM
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What conservative can either parse what drad_dog is saying or come up with any zinger better than the self inflicted ones? Nobody is having much luck overcoming the disconnect with reality here, even with repetition.
Cite a denial of reality, not by a conservative, here.
  #132  
Old 12-30-2019, 05:02 PM
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What conservative can either parse what drad_dog is saying or come up with any zinger better than the self inflicted ones? Nobody is having much luck overcoming the disconnect with reality here, even with repetition.
The conservatives here have absolutely no response to what it means for their party that trump is so unfit mentally. Who can blame them? Their party got taken over by a sick predator and they don't have the personality, conscience or self awareness to resist.

The conservative movement is hollowed out intellectually. They are an ethical vacuum, and proud to bring pain and chaos to the nation. They aren't selling anything that anyone wants except hate, tu quoque and antidemocracy.
  #133  
Old 12-30-2019, 08:26 PM
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Sadly, I have to agree that the actions of the rabid asshole Republicans have ruined it for those of us who are old school [fiscally conservative, socially liberal] Republicans.

I wish that there were some way that us nonelected official citizen folks could force something like a vote of no confidence and make Trump get some no shit real intervention.

I mean, I would *love* to see him sitting in something like a classic court room scene, judge and jury, a witness chair, officials and being sworn in and a screen where they show every single lie individually [with perhaps a count of how many times it was repeated by him] in a short video or audio clip, or tweet screen capture and he has to admit that yes he lied ... for however many lies he told to date in office ... because I know he would try and claim that each time he was telling the truth. I would love to see a panel of qualified doctors sit there and tag team interview him and come to a proper diagnosis that he didn't pay them to say he was sane. I would actually love for him to actually go off into a violent frothing rampage on national television that couldn't be covered up. I would love for him to have a violent frothing fit in some meeting of the UN or something - stroking out would be phenomenal, but I do stop short of wishing him dead - permanently hospitalized in a loony bin or permanently in a prison would be fantastic.

And this is coming from a life long *Republican*. *sigh*
Thanks for being open. What do you think is going to happen with the party over the 5 or 10 year term?
  #134  
Old 01-04-2020, 03:11 PM
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Bandy Lee demands 72-hour mental hold of Trump after Iran attack:

Yale psychiatrist urges Pelosi: Request 72-hour mental health hold on Trump after Iran attack, Igor Derysh, Salon, Jan. 4, 2020.

Article includes excerpts from an interview with Lee.
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  #135  
Old 01-04-2020, 03:23 PM
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Sadly, I have to agree that the actions of the rabid asshole Republicans have ruined it for those of us who are old school [fiscally conservative, socially liberal Republicans]
Face it. They threw us out forty years ago.

(signed)

An Anderson Republican
  #136  
Old 01-04-2020, 05:02 PM
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Bandy Lee demands 72-hour mental hold of Trump after Iran attack:

Yale psychiatrist urges Pelosi: Request 72-hour mental health hold on Trump after Iran attack, Igor Derysh, Salon, Jan. 4, 2020.

Article includes excerpts from an interview with Lee.
Very dramatic. But it ain’t the law.
  #137  
Old 01-04-2020, 05:03 PM
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Face it. They threw us out forty years ago.

(signed)

An Anderson Republican
Ah, John Anderson. The first presidential candidate to say the word Bullshit in a campaign ad. Alas, the GOP then chose the bullshit standard. And here we are.

Conservative principles: Non-involvement in foreign affairs. Fiscal responsibility. Fair taxation. Wildlands conservation. Preserve what works. Tolerance.

Modern GOP principles: White supremacy. Aiding foreign enemies. Suppression of dissidents. Fiscal insanity. Appeals to hate and fear. Cultist worship.

Conservatives have no place in the modern GOP.
  #138  
Old 01-06-2020, 12:49 AM
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Bandy Lee demands 72-hour mental hold of Trump after Iran attack:

Yale psychiatrist urges Pelosi: Request 72-hour mental health hold on Trump after Iran attack, Igor Derysh, Salon, Jan. 4, 2020.

Article includes excerpts from an interview with Lee.
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Very dramatic. But it ain’t the law.
Even more drama! Bandy Lee says: I told you so!

Trump’s ‘narcissistic rage’ led him to assassinate Suleimani — now he could be taking the country to war: Yale psychiatrist
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bandy X. Lee, DC Report @Raw Story, Jan. 6, 2020:
“You nailed him!” is the typical response I received on Twitter, the forum I have been using to reach out to the public, after the assassination of Iran’s top general, Qassim Suleimani. My audience was referring to the concerns I had regarding Donald Trump leading up to the act of aggression, which is precisely the psychological danger I warned against, along with more than 800 other mental health professionals who joined me in petitioning Congress to consult with us about this danger.
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Last edited by Senegoid; 01-06-2020 at 12:52 AM.
  #139  
Old 01-06-2020, 07:13 AM
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Cults don't normally get rid of their leader . He's going to stay unless he dies or is voted out in Nov.
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