Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 01-13-2020, 06:37 AM
septimus's Avatar
septimus is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: The Land of Smiles
Posts: 20,462

"Reverse Misogyny", e.g. in Killing Eve


What do y'all think of Killing Eve? I watched Season 1, didn't like it enough to watch Season 2. But with my TV queue empty I watched Season 2. Can't decide whether I like it or not. I think not.

But mentioning Killing Eve is just my excuse to post the following question/comment in Cafe Society. I didn't know whether GD or IMHO was best suited, but the theme I describe may be a Hollywood invention more than reality, so I'll post here.

In one of the final Killing Eve episodes. Eve plops into bed with a young man (who had not been particularly "coming on" to her), more or less insisting that he f**k her. In the morning, when the guy wants to cuddle and discuss their relationship, she's indifferent and orders him to fetch coffee.

Had the genders been reversed, I think this would be a shocking example of misogyny. Viewers would be outraged to see the hero depicted as so callous toward a woman. But when female Eve does this, I think we're supposed to admire her she's "tough" like a man. I don't think this episode of Killing Eve is unique other movies and TV dramas present similar scenarios.

Am I interpreting this correctly? What do others think?
  #2  
Old 01-13-2020, 07:03 AM
Darren Garrison's Avatar
Darren Garrison is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 12,423
1.) I have watched the first two seasons of Killing Eve, but am pretty "meh" about it. It is a decent way to kill time, but nothing about it doesn't seem like generic "spies and multiple levels of conspiracy" stuff.

2.) You know, there is a term for the opposite of misogyny--misterogyny. Nothing about Killing Eve ever struck me as misterogynistic.
  #3  
Old 01-13-2020, 07:27 AM
septimus's Avatar
septimus is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: The Land of Smiles
Posts: 20,462
(Google showed me 'misandry' as a role-reversed misogyny, but using that obscure word might confuse my question.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darren Garrison View Post
... Nothing about Killing Eve ever struck me as misterogynistic.
Mods: Please change thread title to
'"Reverse Misogyny" from Hollywood, using a single specific scene in Killing Eve as an example.'
  #4  
Old 01-13-2020, 07:46 AM
pulykamell is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: SW Side, Chicago
Posts: 48,594
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darren Garrison View Post

2.) You know, there is a term for the opposite of misogyny--misterogyny. Nothing about Killing Eve ever struck me as misterogynistic.
Is that really a cutesy term in use, or just a little joke? I know "misandry," though -- I thought it was a reasonably common term, at least among people like SDMB readers (apparently, it shows up 161 times on a Google search of the board., though our search engine gives 183 hits.)

Last edited by pulykamell; 01-13-2020 at 07:48 AM.
  #5  
Old 01-13-2020, 07:50 AM
Jasmine's Avatar
Jasmine is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 2,457
I disagree. Sexist, yes; "man-hating", no. I think the tendency these days is to throw around the word "misogyny" a little too loosely.
__________________
"The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance -- it is the illusion of knowledge."
--Daniel J Boorstin
  #6  
Old 01-13-2020, 07:51 AM
WOOKINPANUB's Avatar
WOOKINPANUB is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: St Petersburg, Floriduhhh
Posts: 7,324
If this show were meant to be taken seriously I could see he OP's point. It's almost a send up of conventional spy thrillers where the protagonist is a man. How many times did we see James Bond dismiss or otherwise disrespect his female play things? I think we must also consider the voice behind it, that of Phoebe Waller Bridge. She is a writer with absolutely no very few boundaries.
  #7  
Old 01-13-2020, 07:54 AM
Darren Garrison's Avatar
Darren Garrison is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 12,423
Quote:
Originally Posted by septimus View Post
Mods: Please change thread title to
'"Reverse Misogyny" from Hollywood, using a single specific scene in Killing Eve as an example.'
Killing Eve isn't from Hollywood.
  #8  
Old 01-13-2020, 08:19 AM
SanVito is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Bristol, UK
Posts: 4,907
Quote:
Originally Posted by WOOKINPANUB View Post
If this show were meant to be taken seriously I could see he OP's point. It's almost a send up of conventional spy thrillers where the protagonist is a man. How many times did we see James Bond dismiss or otherwise disrespect his female play things? I think we must also consider the voice behind it, that of Phoebe Waller Bridge. She is a writer with absolutely no very few boundaries.
Talking of which, I can't WAIT to see the new Bond film, where she's been brought in to liven up the script.
  #9  
Old 01-13-2020, 08:21 AM
ftg's Avatar
ftg is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Not the PNW :-(
Posts: 21,112
She's a sociopath. Male or female, a major character like that in a show like this is going to do a lot of bad things. Singling out attitude towards the opposite (in this case) gender misses the point.

It's like having a major beef with Norman Bates doing taxidermy.
  #10  
Old 01-13-2020, 08:26 AM
DSeid's Avatar
DSeid is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 23,124
I don’t think it was intended to be “admirable”.

And Phoebe Waller Bridge wrote season one but not two.
  #11  
Old 01-13-2020, 08:39 AM
Thudlow Boink's Avatar
Thudlow Boink is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Lincoln, IL
Posts: 28,135
Quote:
Originally Posted by septimus View Post
Eve plops into bed with a young man (who had not been particularly "coming on" to her), more or less insisting that he f**k her. In the morning, when the guy wants to cuddle and discuss their relationship, she's indifferent and orders him to fetch coffee.

Had the genders been reversed, I think this would be a shocking example of misogyny.
I disagree. An example of "being a jerk" or insensitivity or rudeness, maybe.
  #12  
Old 01-13-2020, 09:00 AM
MrDibble's Avatar
MrDibble is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Cape Town, South Africa &
Posts: 27,156
Quote:
Originally Posted by septimus View Post
Had the genders been reversed, I think this would be a shocking example of misogyny.
Do you? Really? Shocking, you say? I don't know, the commonplace is hardly shocking anymore.

You don't think that's precisely why a scene like that was included?
  #13  
Old 01-13-2020, 09:05 AM
Calavera's Avatar
Calavera is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by ftg View Post
She's a sociopath. Male or female, a major character like that in a show like this is going to do a lot of bad things. Singling out attitude towards the opposite (in this case) gender misses the point.

It's like having a major beef with Norman Bates doing taxidermy.
Villanelle is the sociopath, Eve is the detective. It's been a while since I saw this and don't remember the scene but I expect septimus didn't misspeak when he said "Eve"

Last edited by Calavera; 01-13-2020 at 09:10 AM.
  #14  
Old 01-13-2020, 10:04 AM
septimus's Avatar
septimus is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: The Land of Smiles
Posts: 20,462
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calavera View Post
Villanelle is the sociopath, Eve is the detective. It's been a while since I saw this and don't remember the scene but I expect septimus didn't misspeak when he said "Eve"
Yes. Villanelle might have tortured the guy upside-down, rather than just sending him out for coffee.

But remember the ambiguous title Killing Eve Eve has "gone through some changes;" is she becoming -pathic herself? Is her relationship with Villanelle just hate-hate, or is it Love-Hate?
In the relevant episode
SPOILER:
Shortly after sending her lover out for coffee, she finds him stabbed and bleeding and in need of urgent medical care. She makes small effort to help, and ends up chasing the bad guy without calling 9-1-1 (or rather its Roman equivalent) .


But this is all tangential to my thread's purpose, which was predicated on the assumption that
Female dominance episodes (using the Killing Eve example ONLY for clarity), are commonplace nowadays in movies and TV.

Is my assumption even true?

Can others help me think of examples OTHER than Killing Eve where such scenario(s) are present?
  #15  
Old 01-13-2020, 10:07 AM
needscoffee is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 7,255
Male Fragility.
  #16  
Old 01-13-2020, 10:20 AM
Chronos's Avatar
Chronos is offline
Charter Member
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: The Land of Cleves
Posts: 86,337
I won't dispute that female dominance is more common in media now than it used to be. But I would suspect that it's still less common than male dominance. We just don't notice the male dominance, because we're so used to it.
  #17  
Old 01-13-2020, 10:46 AM
septimus's Avatar
septimus is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: The Land of Smiles
Posts: 20,462
Yes. I'm wondering what "message" if any the scriptwriters are sending. I also wonder about viewers' attitudes about the scenes.

Can we all agree that some simple {Man == Woman} equivalences fail categorically?
  #18  
Old 01-13-2020, 11:44 AM
ISiddiqui is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Decatur, Georgia, USA
Posts: 6,879
Say what? It's a classic case of reversing the normal male-dominated practice. So rather than being reverse-sexism, it is intended to shine a light on classic sexist tropes itself. She's acting as a male might in plenty of movies/television.
  #19  
Old 01-13-2020, 12:12 PM
DSeid's Avatar
DSeid is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 23,124
In this example anyway yes part of the point is that Eve is something-pathic herself. She was using him basically as a ... tool ... while she was being turned on listening to a sociopathic killer of her fantasies.

Do some shows make an effort to subvert the classic trope by reversing roles. I’d bet yes but don’t have any offhand.
  #20  
Old 01-13-2020, 04:21 PM
kaylasdad99 is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Anaheim, CA
Posts: 32,625
“Misterogyny” is hilarious.
  #21  
Old 01-13-2020, 04:36 PM
needscoffee is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 7,255
Quote:
Originally Posted by septimus View Post
Yes. I'm wondering what "message" if any the scriptwriters are sending. I also wonder about viewers' attitudes about the scenes.



Can we all agree that some simple {Man == Woman} equivalences fail categorically?
Have you ever complained the 5 zillion times male characters have behaved this way to female characters? Did it bother you then?

You can't even think of any other examples of this happening with roles reversed - you're asking everyone else if they can think of any other time it's happened. You're ridiculously bothered by seeing it happen once. Welcome to our world.

Do you really think that women never treat men badly? Do you think it should never be portrayed as an example of sociopathic behavior?
  #22  
Old 01-13-2020, 04:37 PM
nelliebly is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Washington
Posts: 2,357
Quote:
Originally Posted by septimus View Post
Yes. Villanelle might have tortured the guy upside-down, rather than just sending him out for coffee.

But remember the ambiguous title Killing Eve Eve has "gone through some changes;" is she becoming -pathic herself? Is her relationship with Villanelle just hate-hate, or is it Love-Hate?
In the relevant episode
SPOILER:
Shortly after sending her lover out for coffee, she finds him stabbed and bleeding and in need of urgent medical care. She makes small effort to help, and ends up chasing the bad guy without calling 9-1-1 (or rather its Roman equivalent) .


But this is all tangential to my thread's purpose, which was predicated on the assumption that
Female dominance episodes (using the Killing Eve example ONLY for clarity), are commonplace nowadays in movies and TV.

Is my assumption even true?

Can others help me think of examples OTHER than Killing Eve where such scenario(s) are present?
Meh, I used to see it all the time in the early years of Grey's Anatomy (I haven't watched later episodes, so don't know if it's still there.) That is, the show featured many scenes of reversal of stereotyped roles where the guy wants a relationship and the woman just wants sex. There was one episode where Christina (Sandra Oh) says something to Meredith about guys being like 1950s debutantes.

Is it misandry? No, because it plays against stereotype. There's nothing inherently demeaning in portraying someone as the one who wants to cuddle and for the sex to mean something. Normally, we see women stereotyped as emotionally needy. The one-person-is-hot-the-other-cold is a classic conflict. How would you rather it be portrayed?
  #23  
Old 01-13-2020, 05:00 PM
septimus's Avatar
septimus is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: The Land of Smiles
Posts: 20,462
Nowhere did I say that I object to this gender-reversing scenario. (Or whatever it should be called.)

To the contrary, I'm just trying to understand its parameters and how it applies in the real (non-TV, non-movie) world.
  #24  
Old 01-13-2020, 05:30 PM
Hilarity N. Suze is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Denver
Posts: 8,155
Sorry, to even notice this and consider it worth remarking on is sexist.
  #25  
Old 01-13-2020, 05:33 PM
Velocity is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 16,191
Quote:
Originally Posted by ISiddiqui View Post
Say what? It's a classic case of reversing the normal male-dominated practice. So rather than being reverse-sexism, it is intended to shine a light on classic sexist tropes itself. She's acting as a male might in plenty of movies/television.
So "It is bad when Y does it, but good when X does it, because X's bad behavior is really a reflection of Y?"
  #26  
Old 01-13-2020, 05:44 PM
ISiddiqui is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Decatur, Georgia, USA
Posts: 6,879
Quote:
Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
So "It is bad when Y does it, but good when X does it, because X's bad behavior is really a reflection of Y?"
Has anyone defended Eve's behavior on this thread?

When a marginalized group person switches roles and does something that the dominant group person generally does it tends to shine a greater light as to why said act is problematic due to dominant group people feeling a little bit as to what marginalized group people have been feeling by those actions.
  #27  
Old 01-14-2020, 12:08 AM
DSeid's Avatar
DSeid is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 23,124
Bond never had sex with a convenient woman specifically because he was listening in on a the same sex killer villain and was turned on. That really was the key feature of that event. He was not attractive to her in his own right at all, he was just available to use for her self-pleasuring while fantasizing about Villanelle. The sexual tension and driver of the scene was Eve and Villanelle.

Jessica Jones' casual sex might be more apt except that the man was a jerk.
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:46 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright 2019 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017