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  #101  
Old 01-15-2020, 05:15 PM
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This one is easy. We treat everyone with respect and hope their spirits will improve with influence from our own actions. That does not mean that you have to just take everyone as an equal. I have been burned by lots of people and she certainly has. Love, like and forgiveness are all very different things. I am working on myself now very aggressively but it is a long process that can never be mastered. She doesn't mistreat men. It has just been that men in her life have done some extremely terrible things to her. I can't go into detail because she is a public figure but I have lived through many similar things. The point is to do better, love each other and move on.

I am working on a perfect honesty policy right now. I already told every person that is important to me in my life about everything including my views, the reasons for them and asked for forgiveness when I was wrong. Almost everyone received it well because they know I have a great heart. The few that didn't have issues to address on their own and I am also willing to help them with that. Recreational conflict doesn't do anyone any good.
You sound like you joined a cult.

Good luck.
  #102  
Old 01-15-2020, 05:52 PM
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... I have a great heart.
I suppose you realize how odd it is for someone to say this about himself. One of the things about your posts in this thread that don't feel positive to me.

Nevertheless, I wish you well and hope for the best outcome, for you and for everyone else.
  #103  
Old 01-15-2020, 08:32 PM
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You sound like you joined a cult.

Good luck.
I suppose I did. It is a "cult" devoted to self reflection, self improvement and helping others. Someone please save me from myself!
  #104  
Old 01-15-2020, 09:43 PM
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... The few that didn't have issues to address on their own and I am also willing to help them with that. ...
I've been very clear that I am not in the position to either give or withhold forgiveness to you, and that I wish anyone trying to move to a path of self-improvement good wishes.

Nevertheless this statement really is all sorts of fucked up.

Those here at least who have not received your request for forgiveness well are not declining to forgive you because of "issues" of their own. They are simply judging your attempt at apology as an abject failure. They don't need your help. They don't want your help. The most you can hope for is their granting you a chance to do things that can move towards repairing the damages and hurts that you recognize you have inflicted and are responsible for.

Really dude if your "cult" is, as you say, predicated on "self reflection, self improvement and helping others" you are missing some very basic beats when you automatically blame others for your failure. I'd strongly advise you take the self-reflective moment here. If what you see is mainly your big heart be open to the possibility that your lens may be distorted.
  #105  
Old 01-15-2020, 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Shagnasty View Post
This one is easy. We treat everyone with respect and hope their spirits will improve with influence from our own actions. That does not mean that you have to just take everyone as an equal. I have been burned by lots of people and she certainly has. Love, like and forgiveness are all very different things. I am working on myself now very aggressively but it is a long process that can never be mastered. She doesn't mistreat men. It has just been that men in her life have done some extremely terrible things to her. I can't go into detail because she is a public figure but I have lived through many similar things. The point is to do better, love each other and move on.

I am working on a perfect honesty policy right now. I already told every person that is important to me in my life about everything including my views, the reasons for them and asked for forgiveness when I was wrong. Almost everyone received it well because they know I have a great heart. The few that didn't have issues to address on their own and I am also willing to help them with that. Recreational conflict doesn't do anyone any good.
Then perhaps you described her incorrectly. Does she truly hate men, or does she love them the way an Episcopal priest would and should love her fellow humans? Does she mistrust individual men on a personal level but not as a group? Then that isn't misandry. A member of the clergy doesn't like everyone--that'd be impossible--but if they truly hate an entire gender, that's a huge issue.

1 John 4:20:
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If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen.
  #106  
Old 01-16-2020, 11:16 AM
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Then perhaps you described her incorrectly. Does she truly hate men, or does she love them the way an Episcopal priest would and should love her fellow humans? Does she mistrust individual men on a personal level but not as a group? Then that isn't misandry. A member of the clergy doesn't like everyone--that'd be impossible--but if they truly hate an entire gender, that's a huge issue.

1 John 4:20:
It is the latter and it is justified. I can't into personal details but really has been badly mistreated by men her whole life and I completely understand that. I am trying to help rebuild that trust for some of us.

Believe it or not, women tend to really like me in real life. I have issues of my own but I am certainly not a misogynist as people on this board try to portray me.

We both love people as individuals but not just a broad category. Some people really are just shitheads at least right now. The only thing you can do is help them to get better in the best way possible.
  #107  
Old 01-16-2020, 11:20 AM
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Those here at least who have not received your request for forgiveness well are not declining to forgive you because of "issues" of their own. They are simply judging your attempt at apology as an abject failure. They don't need your help. They don't want your help. The most you can hope for is their granting you a chance to do things that can move towards repairing the damages and hurts that you recognize you have inflicted and are responsible for.
I am not in a "cult". It is true that no one has to forgive me but the apology is out there if anyone wants to take it. I can't undo the past, all I can do is improve like I hope others do too. I haven't broken out a single Bible verse and I don't even go to church all that frequently. I fail to see the controversy.
  #108  
Old 01-16-2020, 11:27 AM
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I can't undo the past, all I can do is improve like I hope others do too.
That would be refreshing. If this thread is any indication, that improvement is yet to start.
  #109  
Old 01-16-2020, 11:31 AM
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That would be refreshing. If this thread is any indication, that improvement is yet to start.
Maybe but you can't run before you walk. I really have improved. I just have a long way to go. Baby steps and all that.
  #110  
Old 01-16-2020, 11:53 AM
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Believe it or not, women tend to really like me in real life. I have issues of my own but I am certainly not a misogynist as people on this board try to portray me.
We're not portraying you as a misogynist. Your own posts have done that. We're merely pointing it out.

But good luck with the "Some of my best friends are women" argument. I'm sure many, and particularly the female members of the board, will find it compelling. Personally, I find arguing with the people you're purportedly apologizing to about whether you've done the things you're purportedly apologizing for usually turns out to be counterproductive, but that's just my opinion, man.
  #111  
Old 01-16-2020, 12:32 PM
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I really have improved.
You keep saying that, but all we have in evidence are your posts here and they haven't changed in any perceptible manner.
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I just have a long way to go.
It's taking longer than we thought.
  #112  
Old 01-16-2020, 12:52 PM
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You keep saying that, but all we have in evidence are your posts here and they haven't changed in any perceptible manner.
At the beginning of this thread, I gave Shagnasty the benefit of the doubt. Following his posts here, I have taken it back. He is attempting to rebrand narcissism as being "devoted to self reflection, self improvement and helping others" - but the "helping others" bit appears to be simply telling them that they're wrong about him.

Now I hear all his posts in the voice of Saddam Hussein from the South Park movie. "But I can change, I can chaaaaaange!"
  #113  
Old 01-16-2020, 12:56 PM
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On behalf of everyone here, we warmly accept!

(Can I do that?)
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  #114  
Old 01-16-2020, 02:03 PM
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You just said this, two hours ago in the thread about blind dates:


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When I was actively dating, I went out with a few lawyers. Never again. Every single one was a trainwreck but I just kept doing it because I wanted to piss them off and refuse them. They don't tend to make good romantic partners.



I am sure there is a good one out there somewhere that will make someone happy but it isn't going to be me. I developed a long list of women that I would never go out with over time based on experience - corporate execs, QA people, lawyers, strippers and many others. Those are all neon stay away signs to me.



Thankfully, I am off the market but I had to learn to stick to teachers, nurses and clergy the hard way.
I'm simply gonna leave this here. A reminder that you date women just so you can "piss them off and refuse them" and another reminder that you write off entire swaths of humanity (wtf is a "corporate exec" anyway?) based solely on their means of earning their daily bread.

In general, though, people who inform you that they are funny aren't fucking funny at all. People who are good-hearted don't go around saying they are; they go around being good hearted. The shittiest parents are inevitably also the ones who command adoring gratitude for how wonderful they are to their offspring.

In other words, people who feel compelled to announce loudly that they ARE something positive ... never genuinely possess that characteristic.
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  #115  
Old 01-16-2020, 02:55 PM
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It is the latter and it is justified. I can't into personal details but really has been badly mistreated by men her whole life and I completely understand that. I am trying to help rebuild that trust for some of us.

Believe it or not, women tend to really like me in real life. I have issues of my own but I am certainly not a misogynist as people on this board try to portray me.

We both love people as individuals but not just a broad category. Some people really are just shitheads at least right now. The only thing you can do is help them to get better in the best way possible.
Then perhaps your self-reflection should focus on how you depict your fiancée (and other women). But if you're not mischaracterizing her in this post, I'd argue that, as a Christian clergy member, she's lacking a crucial ability. Mistrust is a personal issue, and I'm sorry she's had cause to mistrust. But if it spills over into "all men," then it's getting in the way of her religious beliefs and duties. Loving people--in the Christian sense--even though we're shitheads (and we're all shitheads at some point) means accepting on a fundamental level that humans can be shitheads and loving us all anyway. And that IS an essential ability for an Episcopalian priest. That doesn't mean approval of our shitheadedness. It simply means being capable--and it's not easy--of loving us as God does. You may not understand this, but I'm betting your fiancée does.

One more thing: the line that originally caused all the skepticism in this thread is the one about all you'd said was true, but the way you said it was wrong. Can you not see, in all your self-reflective truth-seeking, how troublesome this is? How it undercuts your apology? Imagine someone saying to your fiancée (or mother, sister, daughter), "I formally apologize for calling you a two-bit whore of the devil. That was rude. I should have called you a cheap prostitute of Satan." It's still a terrible, false, disgusting thing to say. Maybe you need to avoid posting apologies until you've taken a lot more baby steps and can honestly, humbly apologize for more than just the phrasing.
  #116  
Old 01-16-2020, 03:04 PM
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I suppose I did. It is a "cult" devoted to self reflection, self improvement and helping others. Someone please save me from myself!
Isn't that how pretty much every cult describes themselves? I mean, the usual cult pitch is that you're going to examine yourself with the help of the cult, improve yourself, and help make the world a better place.
  #117  
Old 01-16-2020, 03:07 PM
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Believe it or not, women tend to really like me in real life. I have issues of my own but I am certainly not a misogynist as people on this board try to portray me.
People have 'tried to portray' you as a misogynist by quoting misogynistic statements that you've made, and which even in your apology you've said you still believe. When people are just direct-quoting your own words without editing or dropping relevant context, it's a bit silly to claim that they're just 'trying to protray' you as what your own words say.
  #118  
Old 01-16-2020, 03:50 PM
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Isn't that how pretty much every cult describes themselves? I mean, the usual cult pitch is that you're going to examine yourself with the help of the cult, improve yourself, and help make the world a better place.
I don't represent the Episcopal church in any formal or even informal way. They have been nothing but great to me and countless others over the years. I don't even go to services that often. It is called "The thinking person's religion" for a reason. They just break Christianity down into the core message but you get to decide how to achieve it. There is nothing cultish about it. It is like calling the Girl Scouts a cult.
  #119  
Old 01-16-2020, 03:55 PM
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People have 'tried to portray' you as a misogynist by quoting misogynistic statements that you've made, and which even in your apology you've said you still believe. When people are just direct-quoting your own words without editing or dropping relevant context, it's a bit silly to claim that they're just 'trying to protray' you as what your own words say.
Be that as it may, I am making an apology for my past behavior and I honestly regret it. I have been on this board for 20 years. Oh my goodness, I said some things that I would take back in hindsight. Call Mom!

I am not sure it is possible to make an effective apology on this board unless crosses, stakes and pitchforks are involved. That is fine. We all have our issues. I am just trying to address mine in the best ways that I can.
  #120  
Old 01-16-2020, 04:20 PM
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Be that as it may, I am making an apology for my past behavior and I honestly regret it. I have been on this board for 20 years. Oh my goodness, I said some things that I would take back in hindsight. Call Mom!
Quote:
Everything I have ever said is true but it was presented in an inflammatory way that I deeply regret.
Your OP actually doesn't say that you would take back the substance of anything that you said. It says that you consider everything that you said to be true, but that you presented it in an inflamatory way and that you deeply regret that way, but not the substance of what you said.

The 'oh my goodness' and 'call Mom!' hysterics seem like the typical deflection engaged in by someone giving an 'apology that's not really an apology'; if the stuff that you said is actually not a big deal and people are being absurd to be at all bothered by it, why even offer an apology in the first place?

Quote:
I am not sure it is possible to make an effective apology on this board unless crosses, stakes and pitchforks are involved. That is fine. We all have our issues. I am just trying to address mine in the best ways that I can.
There's a lot of ground between 'crosses, stakes, and pitchforks' and 'an apology where I claim that everything I said is true and that I just regret saying it in an inflamatory way'. IMO a good rule of thumb is that whenever someone trying to get people or a person to accept an apology makes any comments about 'pitchforks' or 'burning at the stake', their apology is actually worthless and/or meaningless.
  #121  
Old 01-16-2020, 04:26 PM
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I accept your apology but don't believe it. Does that make sense? You apologized, and I looked at my computer screen and said to myself, "Huh, he apologized. We'll see if actually change his stripes. Not betting on it. Is my compile done? Hmm, not yet. Might as well keep typing. La la la la. Peter Piper picked a peck of pickled peppers. Lorum ipsum something something. Still not even half done? Screw it."

Ahem. In any case, if you decide to actually stop being an overt misogynist, that would be spiffy. It might make your username incongruous though.
  #122  
Old 01-16-2020, 04:55 PM
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I don't represent the Episcopal church in any formal or even informal way. They have been nothing but great to me and countless others over the years. I don't even go to services that often. It is called "The thinking person's religion" for a reason. They just break Christianity down into the core message but you get to decide how to achieve it. There is nothing cultish about it. It is like calling the Girl Scouts a cult.
Maybe if you actually studied Episcopalianism for a few minutes, you'd realize that saying it breaks "Christianity down into the core message but you get to decide how to achieve it" is a gross mischaracterization. For a better grasp of the religion in which your fiancee is a clergy member, you might start with the Catechism, found on pages 245-262 of the Book of Common Prayer and here. As you can see, no, you don't "get to decide how to achieve it."
  #123  
Old 01-16-2020, 05:59 PM
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You haven't changed at all. You just want people to think you have. You're not succeeding. I hope your fiance sees through this garbage PDQ. It sounds like the last thing she needs is another bullshitting man in her life.
  #124  
Old 01-16-2020, 06:09 PM
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Believe it or not, women tend to really like me in real life. I have issues of my own but I am certainly not a misogynist as people on this board try to portray me.
Do you have a better term for someone who believes all women are whores?

Oh. It’s not all women, just almost all women. Carry on! I feel so much better knowing that you don’t automatically judge all women, just most of them!

The women here must feel great as well!!! Not ALL of them are whores!!! They must feel so much better about you!

Other than the whores. But who really cares about them or what they think? They are only just the vast majority of women, after all.

But it’s justified because a couple of women treated you badly so the 3 1/2 billion other women and girls must totally be whores. Completely justified!
  #125  
Old 01-16-2020, 06:13 PM
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You just said this, two hours ago in the thread about blind dates
OK, so I'm not the only one who felt that didn't square with this apology thread very well....
  #126  
Old 01-16-2020, 06:21 PM
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I'm always amazed that guys like Shag can find women to put up with their crap. I guess low self-esteem is more common than I think.

And, even more than the misogyny - I still haven't forgiven the milk-in-a-wine-bar trainwreck. How that man has any friends is a mystery I'll never understand.
  #127  
Old 01-16-2020, 09:18 PM
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I, for one, appreciate Shag's participation in the thread after the OP. I was worried I was going to have to read his posts for a while to see if this was a genuine change. Thank you for quickly making it obvious that you haven't changed at all, so I can go back to giving your posts all the attention they deserve.
  #128  
Old 01-16-2020, 11:52 PM
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Be that as it may, I am making an apology for my past behavior and I honestly regret it.
Then act like it, dammit, and quit making excuses. Quit telling us how you "have a big heart" and are "great at apologizing", "women love me", etc etc.

Talk is cheap.
  #129  
Old 01-17-2020, 05:58 AM
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Be that as it may, I am making an apology for my past behavior and I honestly regret it.
This would be more credible if you hadn't immediately followed it with...

Quote:
I have been on this board for 20 years. Oh my goodness, I said some things that I would take back in hindsight. Call Mom!
...patronizing snark. At this point, all you seem to regret is this thread.

Quote:
I am not sure it is possible to make an effective apology on this board unless crosses, stakes and pitchforks are involved. That is fine. We all have our issues. I am just trying to address mine in the best ways that I can.
"I'm apologizing even though I'm the real victim here." Again - not really seeing the sincerity.
  #130  
Old 01-17-2020, 09:28 AM
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I’m glad you’ve found a spiritual home in the Episcopal church. You should look around, I don’t think the home looks like you think it does. You should also read up about apologizing. You just said you were sorry, it isn’t exactly the same thing.

If a habitually drunk and drugged school-bus driver walks out of their first AA or NA meeting saying: “I know I have a problem - I must change, and I’m already 26 minutes sober!” That’s great for the driver, and must surely feel like a monumental change to them, but no-one is going to hand them the keys to the bus any time soon. Especially if the statement is followed by “but drinking was a perfectly rational way of dealing with those little shitheads in the bus!”
  #131  
Old 01-17-2020, 10:39 AM
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You know exactly what you are going to get when you open a Shag thread. Yep, nothing new here.
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