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  #101  
Old Yesterday, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Paranoid Randroid View Post
Sorry, I’m compelled to nitpick this: it isn’t anywhere near half the world’s population. It’s so far from half that it doesn’t even work as hyperbole. Still a lot of people, mind you.
Perhaps you should quit thinking about quantity and start thinking about geography. North and South America are half the physical world.

https://www.google.com/maps/@12.4167...9.468845,3.21z

Last edited by rat avatar; Yesterday at 11:17 AM.
  #102  
Old Yesterday, 11:27 AM
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FYI, here is my 23andme results...not how their "specific" populations don't have "Cherokee", or even North American Native groups?

Quote:
Native American 2.1%
Although we've detected Native American DNA in your ancestral breakdown, we have not identified more specific locations that your recent ancestors may have called home.
  • Argentina Not Detected
  • Aruba Not Detected
  • Belize Not Detected
  • Bolivia Not Detected
  • Brazil Not Detected
  • Chile Not Detected
  • Colombia Not Detected
  • Costa Rica Not Detected
  • Cuba Not Detected
  • Dominican Republic Not Detected
  • Ecuador Not Detected
  • El Salvador Not Detected
  • Guatemala Not Detected
  • Honduras Not Detected
  • Mexico Not Detected
  • Nicaragua Not Detected
  • Panama Not Detected
  • Paraguay Not Detected
  • Peru Not Detected
  • Puerto Rico Not Detected
  • Uruguay Not Detected
  • Venezuela Not Detected
Those are their reference populations and this is where they call "Native American" every native population from the Western hemisphere "Native American" Which is why I said it was like someone matching an Irish individual and claiming to be Chinese earlier.
  #103  
Old Yesterday, 01:51 PM
Irishman Irishman is offline
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rat avatar, thank you for your postings here. I saw the comment about the Cherokee Nation being upset in one of the articles, but wanted the argument elaborated on. You have done so thoroughly.

I see your criticisms with respect to the DNA testing and how it lumps all American indigenous groups as one entity. This is an unfortunate result of the lack of participation by North American tribes. As frustrating as it is, not even the DNA scientists feel this is ideal.

The argument you are making with respect to her is that she is looking at DNA results at all rather than letting the Cherokee Nation decide if she's Cherokee at all. That seems to be missing something. She was looking at her own heritage and trying to confirm her own family stories by the only tool available. It's a flawed tool, but nevertheless it gives some indications. She has repeatedly stated she does not claim Tribal affiliation, only some weak family heritage.

I get that you are advocating that the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma (and only they) has the right to decide if they are offended, and the Eastern Cherokee Nation doesn't speak for them - they are a separate entity (people, tribe, government) with some shared history and heritage. That said, it is fair to point out that not everyone who considers themselves Cherokee has a problem with what Warren has done and said.

Your argument that there is a racist underpinning to all of this is troubling. It seems to be that any attempt at looking at ethnic heritage is polluted by racist ideas lumping groups. I think as long as there are phenotypes that we can see versus genotypes that we cannot, this will be an issue for humanity.

To the more specific issue of Elizabeth Warren, you seem concerned that her attitude has offended some disenfranchised minorities in a way to keep them from supporting her, when every vote she can get will matter in an potential campaign against Trump. I can see this being an issue during the Democratic primary, where she will face a lot of other candidates with varying degrees of competitivity with Trump. I can only hope that if she does win out the Democratic Nomination, that those angered by her can get past it and look at the true record - the attitude and harm caused by Trump and the Republicans and the actual steps Warren has taken to support minority and Native American issues - and decide who is best for their interests.

Sure, if we can get better than Warren, go for it. But if she's the best we got, let's not trivialize how much better than Trump she is.
  #104  
Old Yesterday, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Irishman View Post
rat avatar, thank you for your postings here. I saw the comment about the Cherokee Nation being upset in one of the articles, but wanted the argument elaborated on. You have done so thoroughly.

I see your criticisms with respect to the DNA testing and how it lumps all American indigenous groups as one entity. This is an unfortunate result of the lack of participation by North American tribes. As frustrating as it is, not even the DNA scientists feel this is ideal.

The argument you are making with respect to her is that she is looking at DNA results at all rather than letting the Cherokee Nation decide if she's Cherokee at all. That seems to be missing something. She was looking at her own heritage and trying to confirm her own family stories by the only tool available. It's a flawed tool, but nevertheless it gives some indications. She has repeatedly stated she does not claim Tribal affiliation, only some weak family heritage.

I get that you are advocating that the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma (and only they) has the right to decide if they are offended, and the Eastern Cherokee Nation doesn't speak for them - they are a separate entity (people, tribe, government) with some shared history and heritage. That said, it is fair to point out that not everyone who considers themselves Cherokee has a problem with what Warren has done and said.

Your argument that there is a racist underpinning to all of this is troubling. It seems to be that any attempt at looking at ethnic heritage is polluted by racist ideas lumping groups. I think as long as there are phenotypes that we can see versus genotypes that we cannot, this will be an issue for humanity.

To the more specific issue of Elizabeth Warren, you seem concerned that her attitude has offended some disenfranchised minorities in a way to keep them from supporting her, when every vote she can get will matter in an potential campaign against Trump. I can see this being an issue during the Democratic primary, where she will face a lot of other candidates with varying degrees of competitivity with Trump. I can only hope that if she does win out the Democratic Nomination, that those angered by her can get past it and look at the true record - the attitude and harm caused by Trump and the Republicans and the actual steps Warren has taken to support minority and Native American issues - and decide who is best for their interests.

Sure, if we can get better than Warren, go for it. But if she's the best we got, let's not trivialize how much better than Trump she is.

Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the problems around tribal sovereignty in the US, that continue even today.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribal..._United_States

Trump challenges Native Americans’ historical standing

It is the federal government who instituted the idea of blood quantum with the effect of mathematically terminating tribes is a large reason these datasets don't exist.

I think you are trivializing the promises that Elizabeth Warren made to native people earlier this spring and are ignoring the current attacks against them. She made claims and promises that she broke with the DNA claim that her latin relatives match her claim to be Cherokee. Looking at ethnic heritage is polluted by racist ideas lumping groups when one of the major ways those groups are being discriminated is based on trivializing their distinct treaties and identity.

Instead of trying to justify that lumping of heritage, maybe reframe it in the case that having French markers would be acceptable for denying immigrants as being from Iran or Syria. Within the U.S., there are 562 Native American tribes, why shouldn't Levantine ancestral component be usable as to apply to other broad population groups?

The Levantine ancestral component is just as valid.

As Joe Biden is French, if Trump chose to troll him with a claim he is Muslim would you use the same DNA claims to prove that he is if he has a few Levantine markers? Why make the exception for American colonialism? I know I would have a problem with it.

BTW, "my $minority friend doesn't have a problem with it" is generally not accepted with other racial issues, why are the Natives subject to it? If I found a black person who was OK with being called the N word, would it be OK if we started to use it in general public again?

Last edited by rat avatar; Yesterday at 02:32 PM.
  #105  
Old Today, 03:58 PM
Irishman Irishman is offline
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Originally Posted by rat avatar View Post
Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the problems around tribal sovereignty in the US, that continue even today.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribal..._United_States

Trump challenges Native Americans’ historical standing
Thank you for the links. I note that it is Trump's administration that is pushing an agenda against Native Americans. Hard to lay that at the feet of Warren.

Quote:
It is the federal government who instituted the idea of blood quantum with the effect of mathematically terminating tribes is a large reason these datasets don't exist.
And that is a strong justification for the refusal of Native Americans from participating in any DNA endeavors.

Quote:
I think you are trivializing the promises that Elizabeth Warren made to native people earlier this spring and are ignoring the current attacks against them. She made claims and promises that she broke with the DNA claim that her latin relatives match her claim to be Cherokee.
And I don't see how Warren broke any of the promises she made here. Though I agree it is for the Cherokee Nation to decide if they support or reject her based on her actions. I just wonder at the strong Pro-Trump postings on that twitter feed, when by any objective measure it is Trump who is wreaking Native American lives and Warren who has pledged to fight for their issues.

I accept your concern that the markers are not indicative of what she is claiming. She's making a narrow claim of ancestry based on data markers that are too wide to support that. Although the basis of her claim is not solely those markers - it includes her family's personal history as shared with her. She's got a wide set of markers, but a story of how they came there that includes Cherokee heritage and does not include Latin or Hispanic or South American heritage. Could she be uninformed of other possible sources for those markers? Certainly. Is she stepping beyond what the DNA really said? Yes.

It feels to me you are trivializing the very harmful and direct actions of Trump and harping on a very minor and indirect harm by Warren, especially when Warren has shown her commitment to the cause in other ways. What actions would you recommend for her at this point to make amends?


Quote:
BTW, "my $minority friend doesn't have a problem with it" is generally not accepted with other racial issues, why are the Natives subject to it? If I found a black person who was OK with being called the N word, would it be OK if we started to use it in general public again?
I really don't see the parallel.
  #106  
Old Today, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Irishman View Post
Thank you for the links. I note that it is Trump's administration that is pushing an agenda against Native Americans. Hard to lay that at the feet of Warren.

...

And I don't see how Warren broke any of the promises she made here. Though I agree it is for the Cherokee Nation to decide if they support or reject her based on her actions. I just wonder at the strong Pro-Trump postings on that twitter feed, when by any objective measure it is Trump who is wreaking Native American lives and Warren who has pledged to fight for their issues.

...

It feels to me you are trivializing the very harmful and direct actions of Trump and harping on a very minor and indirect harm by Warren, especially when Warren has shown her commitment to the cause in other ways. What actions would you recommend for her at this point to make amends?
The real problem related to Warren's DNA test results is not whether this kerfuffle might undermine her 2020 presidency bid but how easily it led to internecine warfare among people on the left side of the political spectrum. If this is a preview of what 2020 is going to be like for the Democrats, Trump's going to end up winning by default.
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