Straight Dope Message Board

[catwalker]

Hi, Cecil,
Thanks for the info on the Prince of Wales. Regarding Princess Anne, however, I was fairly sure I had heard that she has been invested as Princess Royal, and Wikipedia confirms that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne,_Princess_Royal
"Princess Anne has held the title of Princess Royal since 1987"
all the best,
Catwalker

[DSYoungEsq]

Originally Posted by catwalker

Hi, Cecil,
Thanks for the info on the Prince of Wales. Regarding Princess Anne, however, I was fairly sure I had heard that she has been invested as Princess Royal, and Wikipedia confirms that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne,_Princess_Royal
"Princess Anne has held the title of Princess Royal since 1987"
all the best,
Catwalker

Please note that Uncle Cece wrote his piece on this in 1976.

How Can I Become Prince of Wales?

And welcome to the Straight Dope, Catwalker! Pull up a chair, and stick around.

[Powers]

Rereading that article raises a question in my mind, though. Cecil claims "only one British ruler, Edward III, has taken the throne without the title since Edward I acquired it ... in 1282."

But I can name four monarchs -- one of them English, to be fair, not British -- just off the top of my head who should have taken the throne without being made Prince of Wales first.

The four: Elizabeth I, Victoria, George VI, Elizabeth II.

None of the four was the eldest son of a sovereign, so none would have been made Prince of Wales. I believe each became Prince of Wales upon acceding to the throne (as I believe the title reverts to the sovereign if it's unoccupied), but surely that's not what Cecil was talking about... (?)


Powers &8^]

[Giles]

Originally Posted by Powers

... I can name four monarchs -- one of them English, to be fair, not British -- just off the top of my head who should have taken the throne without being made Prince of Wales first.

The four: Elizabeth I, Victoria, George VI, Elizabeth II.

Some more are James I and VI (inherited through his mother, Mary Queen of Scots), James II and VII (second surviving son of Charles I), William III (inherited through his mother, Princess Mary), and George I (inherited through his mother Sophia, Electress of Hanover).

[APB]

Originally Posted by Powers

Rereading that article raises a question in my mind, though. Cecil claims "only one British ruler, Edward III, has taken the throne without the title since Edward I acquired it ... in 1282."

But I can name four monarchs -- one of them English, to be fair, not British -- just off the top of my head who should have taken the throne without being made Prince of Wales first.

The four: Elizabeth I, Victoria, George VI, Elizabeth II.

None of the four was the eldest son of a sovereign, so none would have been made Prince of Wales. I believe each became Prince of Wales upon acceding to the throne (as I believe the title reverts to the sovereign if it's unoccupied), but surely that's not what Cecil was talking about... (?)


Powers &8^]

I seem to remember that that particular glaring mistake has been pointed out before.

What Cecil was presumably trying to claim was that Edward III is the only surviving eldest son of the previous monarch who has succeeded to the throne without first being Prince of Wales. But even that wouldn't be true - Henry VI is the other counter-example.

[septimus]

Originally Posted by Powers

But I can name four monarchs -- one of them English, to be fair, not British -- just off the top of my head who should have taken the throne without being made Prince of Wales first.

The four: Elizabeth I, Victoria, George VI, Elizabeth II.

Originally Posted by Giles

Some more are James I and VI (inherited through his mother, Mary Queen of Scots), James II and VII (second surviving son of Charles I), William III (inherited through his mother, Princess Mary), and George I (inherited through his mother Sophia, Electress of Hanover).

In addition to those Powers and Giles mention, and all Queens, Kings after Edward II who lacked the Wales title before ascension include Edward III, Henry IV, Henry VI, Edward IV, Richard III, Henry VII, Edward VI, William IV.

Five Princes of Wales died before their fathers. The only Prince who survived his father but didn't become King was James "III" the Old Pretender.

Richard II and George III were each made Prince of Wales as grandson, rather than son, of the Monarch.

[Elendil's Heir]

I read a bio of Queen Elizabeth II a few years ago - maybe Sally Bedell Smith's very good one? - in which the author wrote that there was a brief consideration by King George VI and Winston Churchill after WWII of giving then-Princess Elizabeth the title "Princess of Wales" in her own right, but they decided not to do it because it would've been unprecedented.

[Powers]

Originally Posted by Elendil's Heir

I read a bio of Queen Elizabeth II a few years ago - maybe Sally Bedell Smith's very good one? - in which the author wrote that there was a brief consideration by King George VI and Winston Churchill after WWII of giving then-Princess Elizabeth the title "Princess of Wales" in her own right, but they decided not to do it because it would've been unprecedented.

If Prince George has a daughter as his eldest child when he becomes King, I hope he reconsiders, now that male primogeniture is consigned to history's dustbin.


Powers &8^]

[John W. Kennedy]

Originally Posted by Powers

If Prince George has a daughter as his eldest child when he becomes King, I hope he reconsiders, now that male primogeniture is consigned to history's dustbin.

Welsh devolution might have eliminated the whole thing by then.

[AK84]

Originally Posted by Powers

If Prince George has a daughter as his eldest child when he becomes King, I hope he reconsiders, now that male primogeniture is consigned to history's dustbin.


Powers &8^]

Maybe he can reintroduce the idea by following Vernon J's dicta in the Ship Money . The way politicians are going, he might need to.

[Elendil's Heir]

Bumped.

Why did the Queen wait until 1987 to make Anne Princess Royal, anyway?

[Bayaker]

The Wiki article doesn't address what a Princess Royal actually is. It must have some kind of official/legal/cultural designation in England, so what does that specific designation mean? Anne was already a royal princess since she is the daughter of a monarch.Cecil says that it's the female equivalent of Prince of Wales, but that doesn't really make sense because Prince of Wales effectively means heir apparent, and is associated(at least historically) with owning/receiving revenue from/governing an actual place.

[Elendil's Heir]

Separate from Anne's bio, the title has its own Wiki page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princess_Royal

[Lord Feldon]

Originally Posted by Elendil's Heir

Bumped.

Why did the Queen wait until 1987 to make Anne Princess Royal, anyway?

She's generally pretty stingy with these things. Not in absolute terms (the average person gets zero titles from their mother), but relative to her predecessors she waits a long time before giving her family new honors.

[PatrickLondon]

Originally Posted by Bayaker

The Wiki article doesn't address what a Princess Royal actually is. It must have some kind of official/legal/cultural designation in England, so what does that specific designation mean?

No, it's a mark of the monarch's estimation of their eldest daughter. AFAIK it doesn't even necessarily go with their being counted as a "Counsellor of State" (i.e., someone who can be called on to deputise for the monarch on the formalities of state business), which does go with their position in the line of succession.

[bump]

Originally Posted by Powers

If Prince George has a daughter as his eldest child when he becomes King, I hope he reconsiders, now that male primogeniture is consigned to history's dustbin.

What would the title be? Princess of Wales?

What title would a younger brother get? Prince Royal?

[Quartz]

Originally Posted by bump

What would the title be? Princess of Wales?

Why not? Though the Queen holds the title Lord of Man and not Lady of Man, so who knows?

What title would a younger brother get? Prince Royal?

Again, why not?

[bump]

Originally Posted by Quartz

Why not? Though the Queen holds the title Lord of Man and not Lady of Man, so who knows?



Again, why not?

I have no idea- I'm not well versed in how a thousand years of tradition is going to intersect with the removal of male primogeniture.

Isn't the Queen also the Duke of Normandy as well? ISTR that there are some few ducal possessions that are not Crown posessions, as weird as that might be.

[Elendil's Heir]

Originally Posted by bump

...Isn't the Queen also the Duke of Normandy as well? ISTR that there are some few ducal possessions that are not Crown posessions, as weird as that might be.

She is indeed:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_o...dy#Title_today
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Lancaster

[John W. Kennedy]

Originally Posted by Quartz

Why not? Though the Queen holds the title Lord of Man and not Lady of Man, so who knows?

“Lord of Mann”, actually. “Isle of Man”, but “Lord of Mann”.

[Lord Feldon]

Originally Posted by bump

Isn't the Queen also the Duke of Normandy as well?

The title is traditionally used in the Channel Islands, but it's informal, like the titles of Duke of Lancaster and Lord of Mann. (The Crown possesses the Duchy of Lancaster (the estate of the Duke of Lancaster), but it does so specifically because the duchy defaults to the Crown in the absence of a duke.)

[DesertDog]

Americans have always been a bit fuzzy on this whole title business anyway.

[bump]

Well, we did have an Emperor at one point...

[Elendil's Heir]

Watch out for Her Majesty's moves: https://me.me/i/she-can-move-in-any-...8643abe00f5a0a

[ftg]

In the historical footnote department on women with masculine titles:

Mary was crowned King of Hungary in 1382.

Jadwiga was crowned King of Poland in 1384.

They were sisters.

(The titles were mostly for coronation and title claim reasons. E.g., Jadwiga got married and her husband gained the title "king".)