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  #51  
Old 01-17-2018, 11:22 AM
Falchion Falchion is offline
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Originally Posted by Kimstu View Post
Uh, I think describing the entire African continent as a shithole would definitely have racist implications. There is a huge variety of conditions in different African countries compared to other countries in the world that are not generally considered shitholes.
One of the difficulties in trying to have an informed discussion over this is that it's not clear what Trump actually said. It seems almost certain that he described Haiti as a shithole. Durbin claims the term was also applied to "certain African countries." We don't know which ones (from the context, it was presumably either the African countries with a TPS designation or those that are in the diversity lottery). But it seems equally clear that he did not use the term to describe the entire African continent, because that's not the allegation.

Last edited by Falchion; 01-17-2018 at 11:23 AM.
  #52  
Old 01-17-2018, 11:28 AM
Kimstu Kimstu is offline
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Originally Posted by Falchion View Post
Durbin claims the term was also applied to "certain African countries." We don't know which ones (from the context, it was presumably either the African countries with a TPS designation or those that are in the diversity lottery). But it seems equally clear that he did not use the term to describe the entire African continent, because that's not the allegation.
No argument here. What I was objecting to was Gyrate's assertion that applying the term "shithole" to "Africa", i.e., the entire African continent unqualified, "is not inherently racist".

I have no data on exactly which or how many individual African countries Trump applied that term to.
  #53  
Old 01-17-2018, 11:57 AM
What Exit? What Exit? is offline
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Originally Posted by Kimstu View Post
You assume incorrectly. For example, the most educated group in the US population is Nigerian immigrants, outranking both whites and Asian-Americans as well as other minority groups.
Can you locate the study behind the article? I don't see any link to it in the article. I not doubting the information but I am thinking that one country was cherry picked for the article where whites were lumped together and Asians were lumped together.
  #54  
Old 01-17-2018, 11:58 AM
Chronos Chronos is online now
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My apologies, Fotheringay-Phipps. You did indeed put forward a defense of what Trump actually said. I might disagree with the points of that defense, but you did put it forward. My comment was addressed to Shodan, who was claiming that all Trump said was that Haiti was a shithole (a statement which, absent the rest of the context, is fairly uncontroversial).
  #55  
Old 01-17-2018, 12:01 PM
E-DUB E-DUB is offline
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trump doesn't want immigrants from Norway because they're white. He just wants more hot blondes.
  #56  
Old 01-17-2018, 12:15 PM
Gyrate Gyrate is online now
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Originally Posted by Kimstu View Post
No argument here. What I was objecting to was Gyrate's assertion that applying the term "shithole" to "Africa", i.e., the entire African continent unqualified, "is not inherently racist".

I have no data on exactly which or how many individual African countries Trump applied that term to.
Note that I didn't say it was correct or in any way a good thing to say - in fact I stated the opposite. But (hypothetically) it's possible to hold the opinion that third-world countries are all "shitholes" for non-racist (albeit still odious) reasons. In the reported context of the remark, however, I find it unlikely that racism wasn't at least a factor.

But, as I said already, it doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things.
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  #57  
Old 01-17-2018, 12:30 PM
Kimstu Kimstu is offline
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Originally Posted by What Exit? View Post
Can you locate the study behind the article? I don't see any link to it in the article. I not doubting the information but I am thinking that one country was cherry picked for the article where whites were lumped together and Asians were lumped together.
I don't know the source, sorry. But here's a Bloomberg article (with a link citing "comparison of 2000 census data by sociologists including John R. Logan at the Mumford Center" of SUNY-Albany) pointing out that Africans overall are the most educated immigrant group, if that helps:
Quote:
Perhaps most surprising is that, by many measures, the most-educated immigrant group in the U.S. isn't East Asians. Itís Africans.

According to Census data, more than 43 percent of African immigrants hold a bachelorís degree or higher -- slightly more than immigrants from East Asia. Nigerian immigrants are especially educated, with almost two-thirds holding college degrees -- a significantly higher percentage even than Chinese or South Korean immigrants. African immigrants are also very likely to hold advanced degrees, many of which are earned at U.S. universities. By many measures, African immigrants are as far ahead of American whites in the educational achievement as whites are ahead of African-Americans.
  #58  
Old 01-17-2018, 12:38 PM
What Exit? What Exit? is offline
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Originally Posted by Kimstu View Post
I don't know the source, sorry. But here's a Bloomberg article (with a link citing "comparison of 2000 census data by sociologists including John R. Logan at the Mumford Center" of SUNY-Albany) pointing out that Africans overall are the most educated immigrant group, if that helps:
OK, most educated immigrant group sounds more plausible to me. Your first post did not really make that clear. Though in context of the thread I should have realized it.

If we are not talking immigrants, I suspect that if Jewish* was broken out, it might be #1 overall or at least significantly higher than the average whites. I also would like to see the specifics on Eastern Asians by country instead.


* FTR: I am not Jewish or Asian, but mostly Italian-American and without a degree.
  #59  
Old 01-17-2018, 01:08 PM
octopus octopus is offline
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Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
Let me make sure I understand you: Are you trying to claim that Trump and/or the guy defending him isn't actually racist, because the people from those countries really are shitty?
I wouldn't put it that way. I would say that there are mutual effects occurring between individuals and the environments that actual people create. Can or should one single out a particular factor or paint with too broad a brush? In some cases perhaps.

I don't think it's productive to say that huge groups of people are intrinsically shitty or deplorable. But I also don't think it's productive to say that institutions, nations, and cultures spring up with no impact at all from those who compose them.

With regards to labeling countries shitholes or great. Well, I don't see anything wrong with saying a particular country is good or bad if there is good reason for it.

Now about Trump's and some random dude I'll never meet opinions on race? I got no clue what they think. I know what Trump says is boorish and undiplomatic. I don't know what motivates him.

Last edited by octopus; 01-17-2018 at 01:11 PM.
  #60  
Old 01-17-2018, 01:35 PM
Fotheringay-Phipps Fotheringay-Phipps is online now
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Originally Posted by Kimstu View Post
You assume incorrectly.
You've made some good points here and it's very possible my initial assumption was incorrect. (Some more commentary here.)

That said, one possible quibble is whether the measurements we're using are measuring people who entered the country under the programs being discussed (e.g. TPS). Every country in the world, no matter how big of a "shithole" it may be when looking at the total picture, has lots of good and decent and hardworking people. So if your immigration policy is specifically geared to cherry-picking that type of immigrant, then that's what you'll get much of, regardless of the averages in that country. But if you then turn around and use that to open the floodgates to immigrants from that country, then you'll get a more broadly representative population, which won't compare as favorably.

Last edited by Fotheringay-Phipps; 01-17-2018 at 01:36 PM.
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