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  #251  
Old 12-08-2014, 08:22 PM
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I don't really get the whole "it's vanishingly unlikely that he's a sociopath" argument, either. Sociopathy/Antisocial Personality Disorder isn't really all that rare, is it? That one woman she interviewed said she just couldn't be that lucky, and presumably she knows more about it than I do, but Wiki says the incidence in prison populations is 47%, so it doesn't seem too unlikely to me.
What is vanishingly rare is the type of sociopath who has absolutely no early markers of trouble, then suddenly commits one extremely violent crime, and then goes straight to being a model prisoner with not a single trace of trouble in fifteen years.

The cool, extremely intelligent chessmaster sociopath is more myth than reality. Most 17-year old sociopaths are violent criminals or petty thieves and con-artists, not good students in magnet programs. Friends and relatives of sociopaths are generally *not* surprised by a murder conviction, contrary to popular belief.
  #252  
Old 12-09-2014, 04:42 PM
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Maybe, but Asia is a terrible and unreliable witness. Perhaps she didn't think it was worth pursuing.
How is she more "terrible" or unreliable than Jay?
  #253  
Old 12-10-2014, 08:31 PM
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More to the point, Gutierrez couldn't have thought Asia was a a terrible and unreliable witness, since she never bothered to contact her.


I put very little stock in the whole "you can hear it in his voice/reaction/etc., he's lying" game -- that's just prone to a ridiculous amount of confirmation bias, and people have been shown in studies to be very poor at spotting lies by reading the person. However, since we're all playing that game already, I'll mention that, on listening a second time, Jen's taped statement in her police interview sounds very rehearsed and not genuine to my ears. That doesn't necessarily mean she's lying, of course; she could have carefully rehearsed the phrasing of her true story, or I could be seeing something that simply isn't there. But, just on a gut level, it raises an eyebrow and makes me somewhat less inclined to think she's being entirely truthful. :shrug:
  #254  
Old 12-11-2014, 02:44 AM
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Sarah Koenig was on The Colbert Report last night discussing Serial. No new information for podcast listeners, but it's nice to see it getting this kind of attention.
  #255  
Old 12-11-2014, 09:22 AM
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The end of episode 10 really hammered home the dilemma of the falsely accused. Maintain your innocence, and your shot at parole is drastically decreased. Or you can lie and 'admit' you did it and hope for the best. Whether Adnan did it or not, there have to be thousands of prisoners in that situation. Plus throw in the plea dilemma (truthfully defend yourself and risk life in prison or take the plea and serve a reduced sentence), and you can really see how the deck is stacked against the innocent. Especially those that have to worry about potential racist/bigoted judges and/or juries.
  #256  
Old 12-11-2014, 11:59 AM
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Sarah Koenig was on The Colbert Report last night discussing Serial. No new information for podcast listeners, but it's nice to see it getting this kind of attention.
She wouldn't even tell us whether that woman learned to pronounce MailChimp!
  #257  
Old 12-11-2014, 04:41 PM
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So apparently next week is the last episode. Probably that's the right move. While I thoroughly enjoy each episode, if they're at the point at which they're reporting on anonymous rumors about what Adnan's personality was like 15 years ago, the well is probably pretty dry.

I guess it's not realistic to hope that Koenig will provide something like a definitive resolution -- probably that was too much to hope for even at the beginning. Still, I'm confident that the conclusion will be satisfying.
  #258  
Old 12-11-2014, 04:52 PM
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Wow. Ultra boring episode. Nothing to discuss. Bored me to tears. Time to end it.
  #259  
Old 12-11-2014, 05:25 PM
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Wow. Ultra boring episode. Nothing to discuss. Bored me to tears. Time to end it.
Yeah. That was the only episode so far that I didn't even want to listen to more than once. Just nothing in it. It sounds like Sarah feels the same way as Adnan about this story now, she just wants it to end. I guess this is going out with a whimper rather than a bang.

With an episode titled "Rumors", I was expecting to hear something about the threats that Adnan was supposed to have made against Stephanie, or some evidence that he might really have a dark side or a violent streak. But, no, instead we learn that he stole a little bit of money from the mosque in the 8th grade, and apart from he was always a really great guy. Heck, I did things like that in the 8th grade. Doesn't make me a murderer, and it really isn't even relevant to the case.

I'm still hoping for something from the final episode, though. There are a couple of sound bytes from the intro that we still haven't heard on the show. One where someone says "basically threatened me, what happened to Hae is what will happen to you, that's how I felt that day", and another one where Dana (I think) says "I'm thinking, could he have gone crazy?" to Sarah. I still want to know what that is all about.
  #260  
Old 12-11-2014, 08:02 PM
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I enjoyed parts of the episode a lot - it's really interesting to me how self-aware Adnan is, and how clear his language is about how he imagines Sarah and the rest of the world view him.
  #261  
Old 12-12-2014, 12:06 AM
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You know, if Adnan and Jay were in it together, they came close to pulling off the perfect crime. Jay takes a plea deal and walks, but makes sure that his story is so shifty that his testimony isn't enough to convict Adnan. Happily ever after. There's a bad crime novel plot for you. Of course, if that was the plan, which it wasn't, it didn't work out that way.
  #262  
Old 12-12-2014, 06:08 PM
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Ink has already been spilled about the audience’s obsession with some sort of clear and satisfying resolution.
This is the real issue with the podcast's large listenership, and in general with "true crime" dramas. The audience wants everything to be wrapped up in a neat little package with a bow at the end, with a clear-cut "bad guy," and a Perry-Mason revelation of the "truth." It wants to turn the criminal justice system into a made-for-TV movie, as though the courts served only as entertainment for consumption and nothing more. But that's not really how the criminal justice system is designed--that's not its purpose.
  #263  
Old 12-12-2014, 08:55 PM
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I haven't spoken to anyone who expects any kind of real resolution. It will be interesting to see if there is any significant backlash after the podcast is over.
  #264  
Old 12-12-2014, 09:43 PM
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That's a fundamentally stupid position to take. Of course I can make those claims with confidence, based on what I've seen with my own eyes and what I know from colleagues in my profession.
It's fundamentally stupid to think your anecdotal experience speaks at all to the statistical claim that you made.

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You might choose to disbelieve me, but that is irrelevant to whether I can have confidence in my own knowledge.
You can feel as confident as you want. That has nothing to do with whether your statement is supported by evidence. It's not, so stop pretending it is.

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Do you never give any degree of credence to any claim of fact by anyone that is not supported by clinical research?
I give it the weight any anecdotal evidence deserves which is dependent on the source.

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How is she more "terrible" or unreliable than Jay?
Well, Jay is a prosecution witness so they are not really comparable. Asia is completely unreliable for a few reasons. First, we know she recanted which makes her a terrible witness in the present day. However, even back then there were numerous reasons to doubt her story.

1. Her letter says: "...I will try my best to help you account for some of your unwitnessed, unaccountable lost time (2:15 - 8:00; Jan 13)..."

This is completely nonsensical. If for no other reason than Adnan's dad, who she visited before writing the letter, says Adnan was at the Mosque before 8. Additionally, her and Adnan are not close friends. The idea that she is offering to either play amateur detective or would vouch for him herself during that time period is very problematic.

2. She goes to his parents' house after he is arrested like some deranged fan. She says in her letter she "doesn't know him very well" and that:

"We aren't really close friends, but I want you to look in to my eyes and tell me of your innocence"

Who says that? Keep in mind that she has NO idea when or where the murder was alleged to have happened, and thus has no idea whether her alibi is significant, yet she goes to a virtual stranger's house the day after their son is arrested to tell them how calm he was that day?

3. Her supporting details are incorrect. She says it snowed that night and that why she remembers the day. The issue is that the snowstorm was the prior week. The week of the murder there was an ice storm, not a snowstorm. That discrepancy alone would be forgivable, but she says she went to her boyfriend's house and they got snowed in so she had to sleep over. The issue is that the night of the ice storm, it didn't start raining/snowing until after 4am, so it's highly unlikely the weather kept her at her boyfriend's house. If you look at the weather reports, her account more closely aligns with the previous week.

Asia is just not reliable, and as we later know she completely recanted her statement. I could see the value in at least talking to her, but I can also see why a busy attorney may not bother wasting their time on something so clearly worthless.
  #265  
Old 12-12-2014, 10:13 PM
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I haven't spoken to anyone who expects any kind of real resolution.
But you have read this thread, haven't you?
  #266  
Old 12-13-2014, 09:30 AM
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But you have read this thread, haven't you?
Yes.
  #267  
Old 12-14-2014, 07:16 PM
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Finally up to date.

I'm still not sure if Adnan did it alone, or Jay helped, or what. I do think that an adjoining cell should be prepared, right next to Adnan's, for the guy who wrote the theme music.
  #268  
Old 12-17-2014, 04:35 PM
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Funny or Die has a great Serial/Sarah Koenig parody up today. Really funny.
  #269  
Old 12-18-2014, 09:17 AM
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Just finished the finale. Won't spoil anything but I think it was as satisfying as it could be.
  #270  
Old 12-18-2014, 10:33 AM
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Just finished the finale. Won't spoil anything but I think it was as satisfying as it could be.
I'm a bit bummed that it's over. I feel like I'm not done with this thing yet. The facts of this case can still be made less clear! There are more muddled and contradictory accounts that can be be brought up! We can be made to feel even more confused and frustrated than this!

I'll miss this podcast.
  #271  
Old 12-18-2014, 11:46 AM
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Agreed with the satisfying ending. I think SK did a great job in wrapping it up.
  #272  
Old 12-18-2014, 12:32 PM
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Koenig did the best ending she could, and exactly the show I thought we'd get. It was an excellent podcast, overall.

However, I would never in a million years use the word "satisfying" to describe an ending to a murder mystery that isn't any closer to a resolution now than it was in Episode 1.
  #273  
Old 12-18-2014, 01:00 PM
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Well, satisfying in that it was messy like real life, not Hollywood with a surprise ending. How could there be a pat solution to the case?
  #274  
Old 12-18-2014, 02:47 PM
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Koenig did the best ending she could, and exactly the show I thought we'd get. It was an excellent podcast, overall.

However, I would never in a million years use the word "satisfying" to describe an ending to a murder mystery that isn't any closer to a resolution now than it was in Episode 1.
I agree completely. She did the best ending possible for this story. Not satisfying, because there's no truly satisfying end that I can imagine, but it was good. It was a very good first season, and I'll be interested to hear what they do for a second season.
  #275  
Old 12-18-2014, 02:57 PM
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I guess I should say that it wasn't satisfying, but that I'm satisfied. If that makes sense. I think it was the best wrap-up to this we could really hope for.

I liked that SK came out at the end and said that she wouldn't have convicted him if she were on a jury, and that she thinks he didn't do it - but that he could have. And she admits that his charm may be swaying her opinion on the matter.

Dana was the real star of the finale, I thought, laying out the numerous instances of bad luck Adnan would have had to have had happened to him all at once.
  #276  
Old 12-18-2014, 02:59 PM
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Well, satisfying in that it was messy like real life, not Hollywood with a surprise ending. How could there be a pat solution to the case?
I didn't expect a pat ending, which is why the ending wasn't particularly satisfying. Especially since I think Adnan did it, and he's already in jail for the crime.

But, to answer your question, I would expect additional information in the future that will get us closer to a satisfying ending than we have right now. At least, I wouldn't be surprised if that happened.



By the way, I'm listening to TAL Ep #352: The Ghost of Bobby Dunbar

Great little mystery.

Last edited by Labrador Deceiver; 12-18-2014 at 03:00 PM.
  #277  
Old 12-18-2014, 06:04 PM
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So, the Innocence Project lady says "big picture Sarah" when SK throws out there that this new possibility doesn't make sense because we know Jay was involved in some way. That's it? WTF does that mean?
  #278  
Old 12-18-2014, 06:23 PM
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So, the Innocence Project lady says "big picture Sarah" when SK throws out there that this new possibility doesn't make sense because we know Jay was involved in some way. That's it? WTF does that mean?
I'm surprised you couldn't hear my eyes rolling from clear across the country when she said that. That DNA test is a total waste of time. Though, I guess it's about time they started on the forensics of the samples found at the scene.

Last edited by Labrador Deceiver; 12-18-2014 at 06:24 PM.
  #279  
Old 12-18-2014, 06:36 PM
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So, the Innocence Project lady says "big picture Sarah" when SK throws out there that this new possibility doesn't make sense because we know Jay was involved in some way. That's it? WTF does that mean?
Well, I think there's about a .00001% the the DNA will tie the murder to the serial killer, but there's always a chance that they might find DNA evidence tying it to someone else. Which could always help his appeal.

Honestly, I don't think Jay did it anymore. He doesn't seem smart enough to do this and then pin it on Adnan.

The only two options I see are:
A) Adnan did it just like Jay said
or
B) Someone else did it, Jay helped bury the body, and then this third party threatened Jay into saying that Adnan did it.
  #280  
Old 12-18-2014, 08:26 PM
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Asia is just not reliable, and as we later know she completely recanted her statement. I could see the value in at least talking to her, but I can also see why a busy attorney may not bother wasting their time on something so clearly worthless.
Setting aside all your reasoning above (which I won't really argue either way), how could Gutierrez make the determination that she was a completely worthless witness without even calling her?

After listening to the episode about the trials, it was abundantly clear to me that Gutierrez didn't really prepare any kind of defense at all. She knew how to act in a courtroom, and how to cross-examine witnesses, but she had no cohesive plan whatsoever for convincing the jury. She had a personal crisis, let her work suffer as a consequence, and Adnan got incredibly shitty representation. If she'd done even a competent job, I think he walks.
  #281  
Old 12-18-2014, 08:54 PM
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The "big picture" thing means "just because we're using this serial killer scenario as the basis of our appeal to get the DNA tested, what we really just want is to get the DNA tested."
  #282  
Old 12-18-2014, 09:32 PM
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I also thought the ending was good. I think it's pretty clear that nothing huge was going to come out (because surely that would make the real news), but I think the show did a good job of summing up. I was impressed they dug up the information about the cell phone contract showing that a charge for an unanswered call was realistic -- supporting the butt dial view of the Nisha call. To me, Nisha's testimony about Jay being at the video store when he didn't have the video store job on the day of the murder is one of the most problematic parts of the state's case.

It cracked me up when Jay's coworker (Josh?) said something like "well, if *I* was involved with a murder, I wouldn't be telling some guy I worked with at the PORN STORE." Duh.

Every time I am really convinced Adnan is innocent, I remember that Jay knew where the car was, and how would he know that unless Adnan was involved somehow? From what I understand, Jay really only knew Hae through Adnan. Like how would Jay know about the car if the real murderer was that random criminal?

One thing I was intrigued by, and wish there was more information about, was when she pointed out that both Jay's story and Adnan's story have a big missing piece that seems unrelated to the murder -- it makes me think that they could have been up to something sketchy that neither of them came clean with, even something sketchy that was completely unrelated to Hae. (This reminded me of a story I read once, where a guy was in prison for a crime he was adamant he didn't commit -- because he had been committing another crime at the same time, so he couldn't really use that as his defense. I don't think that's really what happened here, but it called that to mind.)
  #283  
Old 12-18-2014, 10:10 PM
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I can't believe they didn't spend any time talking about the anonymous call. That bothered me, for some reason.
  #284  
Old 12-18-2014, 10:20 PM
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Since this was the end, I really think there should have been a moment at the end to bring Hae back to mind. The words about Hae from the interview with Don were lovely, but I really think Sarah Koenig should have acknowledged there would have been no wildly popular successful podcast if a young woman hadn't died tragically.
  #285  
Old 12-19-2014, 05:50 AM
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Every time I am really convinced Adnan is innocent, I remember that Jay knew where the car was, and how would he know that unless Adnan was involved somehow? From what I understand, Jay really only knew Hae through Adnan. Like how would Jay know about the car if the real murderer was that random criminal?
Some possibilities for Jay knowing where the car was:

Jay could have been fed that information by the police.
Jay could have happened to stumble over it at some point while strolling around the neighborhood.
Jay did the murder by himself.

All long shots, sure. And I don't really believe that any of them is what happened. But none of them are impossible.
  #286  
Old 12-19-2014, 06:18 AM
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I was really troubled by Don's account of how the prosecutor yelled at him for not making Adnan seem "creepy" enough. Especially since it apparently happened at both trials. Major kudos to Don for not "improving" his testimony at the second trial. A weaker person might have. Or someone who simply believed Adnan was guilty, and wanted him locked up, might have.

It makes me wonder who else were encouraged to spice up their narratives between trials.

On an unrelated note: SK mentions that a local TV station had done an interview with Hae earlier in the day on the 13th. I've seen that interview, it's floating around the internet. I linked to it earlier in this thread. Or, well, at least I'm assuming that it's the same one. I had no idea that it was from that very same day that she disappeared. That's just so.. spooky.
  #287  
Old 12-19-2014, 08:12 AM
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After listening to the episode about the trials, it was abundantly clear to me that Gutierrez didn't really prepare any kind of defense at all. She knew how to act in a courtroom, and how to cross-examine witnesses, but she had no cohesive plan whatsoever for convincing the jury. She had a personal crisis, let her work suffer as a consequence, and Adnan got incredibly shitty representation. If she'd done even a competent job, I think he walks.
I agree. If this had happened a year or two earlier, Gutierrez might have been up to the task and given proper representation, but at the time, she was not up to it.

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The "big picture" thing means "just because we're using this serial killer scenario as the basis of our appeal to get the DNA tested, what we really just want is to get the DNA tested."
That makes sense. They can't just say "we want the DNA tested", they have to say "we want the DNA tested because we think the real killer is this specific guy for these reasons". It'll be interesting to hear what comes from that.

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I was really troubled by Don's account of how the prosecutor yelled at him for not making Adnan seem "creepy" enough. Especially since it apparently happened at both trials. Major kudos to Don for not "improving" his testimony at the second trial. A weaker person might have. Or someone who simply believed Adnan was guilty, and wanted him locked up, might have.

It makes me wonder who else were encouraged to spice up their narratives between trials.
I agree, that was very troubling. There was also in a previous episode about how the prosecutor hired an attorney for Jay, or something like that, and them talking about how unprecedented that was. There are very troubling things about this case in particular, and our court system in general.
  #288  
Old 12-19-2014, 12:17 PM
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I didn't expect a pat ending, which is why the ending wasn't particularly satisfying. Especially since I think Adnan did it, and he's already in jail for the crime..
I also tend to think he is guilty. I also tend to think there's no way I could find him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. If you're on the jury (assuming the trial is occuring today with everything you know now even if they might not have known it at the time), what do you vote?
  #289  
Old 12-19-2014, 12:19 PM
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Overall, I enjoyed Serial and will tune in for Season 2. I do feel like it could have been tightened up quite a bit. It seems like a lot of things were rehashed over and over. I know some of that was to reflect the investigative process of going back over information again and again, but for a podcast it got a little tedious at times.

I'm okay with the no-resolution ending. As Sarah said, it was a very messy case and to expect some sudden revelation that clears everything up would be foolish. It will be interesting to see if Serial will do a follow-up after the Innocence Project folks have done their thing.

I feel really bad for Hae's family (and feel kind of guilty as a listener) for having her murder used as the centerpiece of what is essentially entertainment for the rest of us. It must be awful to have these events dredged up fifteen years later. That is not to say it isn't worthwhile to question and reinvestigate the guilt or innocence of Adnan, but still...
  #290  
Old 12-19-2014, 12:24 PM
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Every time I am really convinced Adnan is innocent, I remember that Jay knew where the car was, and how would he know that unless Adnan was involved somehow?
Huh. Well, now there's also this, which I just noticed on Reddit.

It's a news report from just after Adnan's arrest. Quote:

Quote:
Police now reveal that 18-year-old Hae Min Lee died of strangulation, and that they discovered her 1998 Nissan Sentra a short distance from where her killer attempted to bury her body in a shallow grave in Leakin Park, key details they had withheld as they sought out a suspect.
Interesting wording there. It makes it sound like the cops had known about the car for a while.

I know, most likely the reporter just misunderstood something, or phrased it poorly, and the car had in fact just been found. That sort of thing happens with news reports all the time. Big freaking woop.

So, it's almost certainly nothing...

But I just had this chill down my spine for a moment. Could the rest of us be misunderstanding something?

Remind me again of the wording from the police interview with Jay. Do the cops ask him to take them to the car, or to the location where the car was parked? Those are not the same thing. And it's obviously a hell of a lot easier for any hypothetical monkey business to occur in the latter scenario.

Although I'm most likely making up fairy tales here. So, if anyone could just kill this stupid idea for me, it would be appreciated.
  #291  
Old 12-19-2014, 12:50 PM
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I also tend to think he is guilty. I also tend to think there's no way I could find him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. If you're on the jury (assuming the trial is occuring today with everything you know now even if they might not have known it at the time), what do you vote?
To acquit.
  #292  
Old 12-19-2014, 01:23 PM
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Yeah. I still think he's most likely guilty, but the timeline the prosecution put forward is just too screwy. I've got reasonable doubt at this point.
  #293  
Old 12-19-2014, 04:24 PM
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Setting aside all your reasoning above (which I won't really argue either way), how could Gutierrez make the determination that she was a completely worthless witness without even calling her?
I agree she probably could have called, but the letter itself seems really shady. That said, there are 2 reasons floated as to why she didn't follow up:

1. Adnan admitted his involvement to her (on some level) and she didn't want a witness corroborating he was at the library/crime scene

2. The prosecution was supposedly gonna argue Hae was killed closer to when Jay said he actually got the call from Adnan, but switched later on which caught CG by surprise.

I think she could have followed up, but if she was a caring as Adnan said she was (eg. getting his medications), I have to think she would have at least tried to call or told Adnan why she didn't.

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Originally Posted by iamthewalrus(:3= View Post
If she'd done even a competent job, I think he walks.
I don't know about that. The reality is much of this case hinges upon whether you believe Jay. We didn't hear or see Jay on the stand. Most accounts make it seem he seemed pretty forthright and honest. If you trust him, it's hard to find Adnan not guilty.

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Originally Posted by GrandWino View Post
The "big picture" thing means "just because we're using this serial killer scenario as the basis of our appeal to get the DNA tested, what we really just want is to get the DNA tested."
But why is that a necessary pretense? I agree that is likely what she meant, but that doesn't seem more likely or a more rational reason for a court to grant testing than to argue that Jay or someone connected to him did it. It's one thing if you argue Jay's DNA being there is not inculpatory because he buried the body, but at least one sample was underneath her fingernails. That alone is damaging to Jay's contention that he was only involved in a limited sense.

Why would you go to a court alleging one of two serial killers may have done it rather than the guy who admits to burying the body did it? Doubly so if you think the latter is what the test will actually show?
  #294  
Old 12-19-2014, 04:39 PM
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But why is that a necessary pretense? I agree that is likely what she meant, but that doesn't seem more likely or a more rational reason for a court to grant testing than to argue that Jay or someone connected to him did it. It's one thing if you argue Jay's DNA being there is not inculpatory because he buried the body, but at least one sample was underneath her fingernails. That alone is damaging to Jay's contention that he was only involved in a limited sense.

Why would you go to a court alleging one of two serial killers may have done it rather than the guy who admits to burying the body did it? Doubly so if you think the latter is what the test will actually show?
I don't know what the threshold is to get the state to re-examine evidence, but I think it's pretty high and you have to show that your new potential suspect has a real reasonable chance of being the person involved.

When the news came out about the DNA appeal, I thought I'd heard that hey had 3 new viable suspects. I assumed one was Jay.

Also, if Jay has already admitted to helping bury Hae, than it's not that odd for his DNA to be at the scene in a general sense, thus making it unlikely to sway a judge to allow the new testing. Perhaps they'll test some samples from under her nails that give them a match against Jay, and that would be damning, but just having his DNA there isn't a big reveal on its face.

Last edited by GrandWino; 12-19-2014 at 04:41 PM.
  #295  
Old 12-19-2014, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by brickbacon View Post
I don't know about that. The reality is much of this case hinges upon whether you believe Jay. We didn't hear or see Jay on the stand. Most accounts make it seem he seemed pretty forthright and honest. If you trust him, it's hard to find Adnan not guilty.
There are so many holes she could have poked in Jay's story using the very evidence that the state presented. But she didn't. She didn't use the call record or the cell tower pings to disprove the state and Jay's whole timeline. Sure, she pointed out that he had lied, but she didn't press the evidence that disproved the state's case because she didn't actually spend time analyzing the case and the best way to beat it.

She was solid on the procedural stuff because that's the sort of thing that you can wing if you have sufficient experience in a courtroom.

But on arguing the actual case, she was hopeless.

Quote:
I agree she probably could have called, but the letter itself seems really shady.
This is absurd.

It looks like a letter written by a 17-year-old girl. A 17-year-old girl who claims to have seen him on the day of the murder, and points out that there was a video surveillance system that could help him!

For a defense attorney to have that letter and not make a single call to follow up on it because, what, the tone of the letter? Come on.

Your two suggested reasons might be good reasons not to call Asia as a witness at trial. They are not reasons to not call her on the phone and see what she knows. Not even a little. I simply don't understand how you can give what appears to me to be grossly incompetent representation such a pass while going ten rounds on how damning it is for Adnan that his fingerprints are on a book of maps in her trunk.

For what it's worth, I was 17 in 1999, and I had a book of maps in my trunk, and it wouldn't surprise me if some of them were missing, since it was a hand-me-down out of date book that had spent a few years bouncing around in trunks and backseats and wherever.
  #296  
Old 12-19-2014, 07:25 PM
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I don't know what the threshold is to get the state to re-examine evidence, but I think it's pretty high and you have to show that your new potential suspect has a real reasonable chance of being the person involved.
Yes, and your credibility is undermined when you posit that two different serial killers might be involved despite zero evidence of that fact and lots of evidence that undermines those theories.

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Originally Posted by GrandWino View Post
Also, if Jay has already admitted to helping bury Hae, than it's not that odd for his DNA to be at the scene in a general sense, thus making it unlikely to sway a judge to allow the new testing. Perhaps they'll test some samples from under her nails that give them a match against Jay, and that would be damning, but just having his DNA there isn't a big reveal on its face.
Did you actually read what I said? I said almost the exact same thing.

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Originally Posted by iamthewalrus(:3= View Post
There are so many holes she could have poked in Jay's story using the very evidence that the state presented. But she didn't.
She tried. It didn't work. I don't know where this misconception comes from, but she pointing out the lies Jay told multiple times in exhaustive detail. They jury believed him in a general sense anyways. It's hard to know why hey did without having been there, but people rely on the statements of liars ALL THE TIME.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamthewalrus(:3= View Post
She didn't use the call record or the cell tower pings to disprove the state and Jay's whole timeline. Sure, she pointed out that he had lied, but she didn't press the evidence that disproved the state's case because she didn't actually spend time analyzing the case and the best way to beat it.
That is just strategy though. She instead tried to prove the cell tower pings didn't matter since otherwise she would have to explain why Adnan was in Leakin Park that night.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamthewalrus(:3= View Post
But on arguing the actual case, she was hopeless.
Impossible to say without having read the entire transcript. Do you somehow have access to that, and if not, why are you so confident her work was shoddy in that particular aspect?

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamthewalrus(:3= View Post
It looks like a letter written by a 17-year-old girl. A 17-year-old girl who claims to have seen him on the day of the murder, and points out that there was a video surveillance system that could help him!
But you have no idea about anything else that happened. Maybe she did check the library and found out the footage was gone by that point, or maybe Adnan said he wasn't in the library. The idea that Adnan would give her this letter, then she would never follow up for any reason, and that Adnan himself while sitting in court wouldn't have asked her what Asia said, is odd to me.

And the letter is shady. She is either offering to play amateur detective for Adnan, a guy she doesn't know very well, or offering to commit perjury by giving him an alibi for an absurdly long period of time. Neither inference makes her a credible witness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamthewalrus(:3= View Post
For a defense attorney to have that letter and not make a single call to follow up on it because, what, the tone of the letter? Come on.
As I said multiple times, she probably should have called. But, not calling was not a game changing, egregious mistake.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamthewalrus(:3= View Post
Your two suggested reasons might be good reasons not to call Asia as a witness at trial.
Of course they are. If she thinks the state is gonna say Hae was murdered at 4pm (for example), why would she call a witness who could alibi him at 2:30? By that logic she should have called everyone he had last period with and everyone on the track team.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamthewalrus(:3= View Post
For what it's worth, I was 17 in 1999, and I had a book of maps in my trunk, and it wouldn't surprise me if some of them were missing, since it was a hand-me-down out of date book that had spent a few years bouncing around in trunks and backseats and wherever.
It's just another small piece of evidence that points to his guilt.
  #297  
Old 12-19-2014, 08:38 PM
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As I said multiple times, she probably should have called. But, not calling was not a game changing, egregious mistake.
It's just another small piece of evidence that points to his inadequate representation.
  #298  
Old 12-19-2014, 08:45 PM
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It's just another small piece of evidence that points to his inadequate representation.
I guess I agree. Care to point to anything else substantive and substantiated? Adnan himself doesn't seem to think she did a poor job.
  #299  
Old 12-19-2014, 09:43 PM
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I guess I agree. Care to point to anything else substantive and substantiated? Adnan himself doesn't seem to think she did a poor job.
I'm pretty sure that I remember Adnan saying that he does think she did a bad job.

Last edited by Labrador Deceiver; 12-19-2014 at 09:46 PM.
  #300  
Old 12-20-2014, 02:11 AM
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I've been thinking about Jay being scared, the white van, and the "West Side hitman" story. And, overall, just WTF is the deal with Jay. How much of this stuff is in his mind. Everyone seems to agree that Jay makes up stories. The guy he worked with at the porn store said that, too, and he didn't even know Jay all that well.

Someone on Reddit suggested that Jay may have some form of mental illness. Maybe that is going to far, but at this point I'm honestly beginning to wonder. He seems to be living in a fantasy world at times. I'm not saying that he's a compulsive liar, but maybe he doesn't know what is the truth and what isn't. Of course, that kind of personality is prime territory for false testimony and police manipulation. Even accidental manipulation.

Some of the things he says to the cops are just so bizarre. Like when he talks about what Adnan has on him, to make him go along with the burial. That Adnan knew he sold drugs. "Here's this drug dealer, and he has a rap sheet this long, go get his ass". The cops remind Jay that he has only been arrested once (which apparently was for disorderly conduct, BTW, and not even drug related). Jay starts in on a story about how the police harassed him, made him lie down in the snow outside his house, at gunpoint, and chased him with helicopters.

Helicopters? Seriously, dude? You want us to believe that something like that ever happened?

He seems to imagine himself as this big-shot drug lord, living an action-packed life of crime. "The criminal element of Woodlawn". The reality is that he didn't even have a car or a phone, and was at the most a small-time dealer., the kind of guy who could hook up his friends with some weed.

So... how far can we go with this? Is it all in Jay's mind?

On the flip side, again, there's Jen. Jen is starting to become my "Nisha call", as it were. Like SK, I can go pretty far in some hypothetical directions, but then there's this one thing that makes it all crumble. Jen told the police that Jay told her about the murder on the 13th. And I don't see why she would lie. So Jay must have known about it then. And then it can't be all fantasies.
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