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  #151  
Old 08-11-2019, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Machinaforce View Post
There is no treatment for the content of the articles besides a good counterpoint, which I don't have.
I give up. You do you. Rule back in effect.

One parting thought: Again, why are you the only person anywhere who responds to these articles like this? Ponder that and perhaps enlightenment will follow.

But I'm out.
  #152  
Old 08-11-2019, 09:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Larry Borgia View Post
I give up. You do you. Rule back in effect.

One parting thought: Again, why are you the only person anywhere who responds to these articles like this? Ponder that and perhaps enlightenment will follow.

But I'm out.
Because you aren't addressing the points being made by the articles. It's different than other religions which I can just ignore, like Christianity is pretty easy. But Buddhism just seems to be different from the rest of them which is why therapy doesn't work. This isn't like depression or anything else that doesn't make a logical or reasoned point.
  #153  
Old 08-12-2019, 08:32 AM
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Buddhism is man made bullshit, just like any religion/philosophy when taken to extremes. Use what gives you comfort (and doesn't hurt others) and discard what gives you anxiety and unresolvable internal conflict.

Now stop washing your bowl and seek professional therapy for your obsessive behavior.
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Last edited by QuickSilver; 08-12-2019 at 08:32 AM.
  #154  
Old 08-12-2019, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Machinaforce View Post
It's hard not to when much of what they say has a truth that I cannot argue against and that no one I talk to seems to be able to either so they just hand wave it.
I suggest you keep this Koan in mind:



Buddhism looks like pure Bullshit.
Buddhism is not pure Bullshit.




Now, this is a very modern Koan (I wrote it) but the wisdom is timeless.*






*Half-joking here (or some other fraction). I don't believe this is any great piece of wisdom. It's not even as pithy as it wishes it could be. Still, it may have some value to the OP.

Last edited by I Love Me, Vol. I; 08-12-2019 at 05:08 PM. Reason: Must. Edit.
  #155  
Old 08-12-2019, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Machinaforce View Post
Because you aren't addressing the points being made by the articles. It's different than other religions which I can just ignore, like Christianity is pretty easy. But Buddhism just seems to be different from the rest of them which is why therapy doesn't work. This isn't like depression or anything else that doesn't make a logical or reasoned point.
I've shown you dozens of times that Buddhism doesn't make a logical or reasoned point either. The problem is NOT that Buddhism has some kind of grounding in rationality or fact. It demonstrably doesn't. At all.

Your refusal to accept that isn't because there's something there. It's because you are obsessed with imagining that there's something there. Even while at the same time you admit that it's gibberish.
  #156  
Old 08-12-2019, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by I Love Me, Vol. I View Post
Now, this is a very modern Koan (I wrote it) but the wisdom is timeless.
That one leaves me cold. It is an ice cream koan.
  #157  
Old 08-12-2019, 08:31 PM
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That one leaves me cold. It is an ice cream koan.
Since it's designed to get Machinaforce back on the right track, you could say it's a traffic koan.
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  #158  
Old 08-13-2019, 11:36 AM
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Since it's designed to get Machinaforce back on the right track, you could say it's a traffic koan.
It says that Buddhism is not pure bullshit, so I don't see how it's supposed to get him on track. MachinaForce is irresistibly attracted to Buddhism (more specifically, cheap hacky pop Buddhism), and gets no meaning at all from it. Everything just confounds and confuses him; he takes it in the form that best feeds his depression and anxiety, not how the authors intended it to mean.

Even if Buddhism actually had some truth behind it (which it quite certainly doesn't, at the metaphysical level), nothing that MachinaForce gets out of it does. I think we can all agree that when he looks at Buddhism, what he sees is bullshit.
  #159  
Old 08-13-2019, 11:50 AM
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Now, now. That's not the way.

Better to accept his ignorance at face value and realize it doesn't diminish us. Perhaps he can learn.

Or, in short, machinaforce, you clearly don't understand buddhism, or, indeed, religion as a whole in any aspect. But you can educate yourself should you wish to do so.
I get the impression that his entire posting history can be read as a metaphorical scream, imploring us to persuade him to wish to so do.
  #160  
Old 08-13-2019, 11:55 AM
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Traffic cone. It's a joke.
  #161  
Old 08-15-2019, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by begbert2 View Post
I've shown you dozens of times that Buddhism doesn't make a logical or reasoned point either. The problem is NOT that Buddhism has some kind of grounding in rationality or fact. It demonstrably doesn't. At all.

Your refusal to accept that isn't because there's something there. It's because you are obsessed with imagining that there's something there. Even while at the same time you admit that it's gibberish.
The problem comes from the claim that at some point logic isn't going to help you. Like I linked in the Lions Roar article about conceptualization, he says that reality isn't what we think it to be. That the reality of existence is this sort of non conceptual silence, one that logic can't get you too. Even the nature of Koans themselves is to reveal the flaws that comes from a logical mindset. Like he mentions that we think there to be a self or a body but it's just a collection of parts. The cities don't really exist out there just in our own minds, as long as we continue to call them such, the same goes with Countries. Or how he says there are no grandparents or grandchildren but just our concepts of them, in reality it's all just forms.

I know it was long but otherwise it seems to make sense and I don't have a reply. I mean concepts to me just point to things (or forms according to him) that exist in the world. The form of parent and child (just to use his words) doesn't change biology. But still the claim that logic has to be left behind in order to understand seems to be a major theme (the heart sutra is pretty much saying "forget everything we told you"), and that thinking in terms of separate independent entities or "options" is part of the illusion.

I want to live according to what is the truth, but the problem is that everyone seems to have the answer to that and I don't know who to listen to. I don't want to be deceived and live a lie, but it's hard for me to ignore the testimony of those who follow this. EVen the people who gave testimonials from the Broward meditation claim to see the world better or have a more realistic view of their relationships (whatever that means) and that those who did it are 99% happier if they did all the levels.

I'll admit I am gullible, but deeper than that I am scared. I haven't truly questioned my worldview from growing up and I don't know what to do or where to go, or how to deal with people who emphatically insist that things are not the way I was taught that they are.
  #162  
Old 08-15-2019, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Machinaforce View Post
The problem comes from the claim that at some point logic isn't going to help you. Like I linked in the Lions Roar article about conceptualization, he says that reality isn't what we think it to be. That the reality of existence is this sort of non conceptual silence, one that logic can't get you too. Even the nature of Koans themselves is to reveal the flaws that comes from a logical mindset. Like he mentions that we think there to be a self or a body but it's just a collection of parts. The cities don't really exist out there just in our own minds, as long as we continue to call them such, the same goes with Countries. Or how he says there are no grandparents or grandchildren but just our concepts of them, in reality it's all just forms.
Some of this is definitional - specifically, it's him refusing to accept a definition and then thinking that his refusal is somehow profound. Sort of like if I said, "I don't drive a vehicle; I drive a Kia Soul." And then you say "But a Kia Soul is a vehicle." And then I say "No it isn't a vehicle; it's a Kia Soul and that's all it is." That's not being profound, that's being an idiot. (And possibly a jackass.)

I've never heard a Koan that didn't sound like similar jackassery. They don't reveal holes in logic; they reveal that the so-called profound person thinks that words and concepts are shocking and confusing.

Suffice to say, there's nothing wrong with labels and concepts, and there's nothing wrong with the idea that there can be things which are collectives of other things, or even arbitrarily defined. There's nothing confusing or invalid about any of this, and the people who are confused by it are just stupid or confused.

You would do well not to let them confuse you.

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Originally Posted by Machinaforce View Post
I know it was long but otherwise it seems to make sense and I don't have a reply. I mean concepts to me just point to things (or forms according to him) that exist in the world. The form of parent and child (just to use his words) doesn't change biology. But still the claim that logic has to be left behind in order to understand seems to be a major theme (the heart sutra is pretty much saying "forget everything we told you"), and that thinking in terms of separate independent entities or "options" is part of the illusion.
These dipshits claim that you have to abandon logic to understand them because their shit is incoherent nonsense and if you don't suspend your thought processes you'd never accept it.

Seriously, when somebody tell you you have to stop thinking to understand what they're saying, grab your wallet and walk away. Nobody who requires you to stop thinking is telling you the truth, ever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Machinaforce View Post
I want to live according to what is the truth, but the problem is that everyone seems to have the answer to that and I don't know who to listen to. I don't want to be deceived and live a lie, but it's hard for me to ignore the testimony of those who follow this. EVen the people who gave testimonials from the Broward meditation claim to see the world better or have a more realistic view of their relationships (whatever that means) and that those who did it are 99% happier if they did all the levels.

I'll admit I am gullible, but deeper than that I am scared. I haven't truly questioned my worldview from growing up and I don't know what to do or where to go, or how to deal with people who emphatically insist that things are not the way I was taught that they are.
I get that you want to live in the real world. These dipshits don't want you to live in the real world. Heck, they're pretty blatant about it. The ultimate goal in their view is to cease to interact with the world and then subsequently cease to exist.
  #163  
Old 08-16-2019, 12:48 AM
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But it's hard to argue that most of what we consider to be real is more like our own creations. Like the idea of "home" even though "home" is more like just furniture inside a house/apartment. The sensation of "home" isn't out there in reality but only in our minds.
  #164  
Old 08-16-2019, 01:07 AM
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Yes. So?
  #165  
Old 08-16-2019, 02:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Machinaforce View Post
The sensation of "home" isn't out there in reality but only in our minds.
For some reason you seem to think that our minds and consciousness are not 'real'.

You are defining 'reality' as some arbitrary subset of what exists.

You are choosing to regard your own mind as non-existent or unreal. You are saying that what is 'out there' is real and what is 'in here' is not real, even though what is 'out there' can only be perceived by what is 'in here'. Can you explain why you think this?

Last edited by GreenWyvern; 08-16-2019 at 02:12 AM.
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