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  #101  
Old 02-03-2019, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Darren Garrison View Post
I would say that it is the difference between verisimilitude and somewhatsimilitude. The more the person looks like the person they are portraying, the more accurate the cosplay. And the less the person looks like the person they are potraying the less accurate the cosplay. For instance, If I was doing Supernatural cosplay, I'd make a much better Bobby than I would Garth (or Billie.) There is a difference between "ha, ha, that's funny" inaccurate cosplay and cosplay where you almost ask them for their autograph.

You didn't answer my question. Do you think those people I linked to are cosplaying "wrong" since they don't look exactly like the characters they are representing?

Cuz personally, I don't think that's the point of cosplay. I think cosplay is about representing the essence of a character in such a way that the inconsequential differences in physical appearance aren't even noticeable. Cosplay about how much you love a character. If you love a character enough and you have enough resources to craft an awesome costume, who cares if you skin doesn't match? That seems like such a petty thing to get hung up on, for reals.
  #102  
Old 02-03-2019, 03:36 PM
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I think Cindy Crawford is more recognizable by her mole than her eye color. Her mole is always the first thing I think of when I think of Cindy Crawford. :shrug:




When you look at the president, do you think "white guy"? Or do you think "Trump"?

I know that when I think of Michael Jordan, I don't think "black guy". I think "MJ". I haven't talked to MJ about this, but I suspect MJ would rather be thought of as "MJ", not "black guy".

I don't think white people look at another white person and say to themselves, "Hey! A white guy/woman! Look at all the whiteness!" No, they look at the things about that person that have nothing to do with their skin coloring, since their skin coloring isn't remarkable. That's how black people want to be seen too. Is that so hard to understand?
If I were asked to describe anyone, I'd absolutely put their race in there.

MJ is a basketball player, who is tall, bald, black guy with a warm smile.
As opposed to Bruce Willis who is an actor , tall bald, white guy, who's smiles make you uneasy.

And yeah, I guarantee if your asking people if they've seen me...short of a picture whites gonna be in that description.
  #103  
Old 02-03-2019, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Darren Garrison View Post
I would say that it is the difference between verisimilitude and somewhatsimilitude. The more the person looks like the person they are portraying, the more accurate the cosplay. And the less the person looks like the person they are potraying the less accurate the cosplay. For instance, If I was doing Supernatural cosplay, I'd make a much better Bobby than I would Garth (or Billie.) There is a difference between "ha, ha, that's funny" inaccurate cosplay and cosplay where you almost ask them for their autograph.
Unless you look exactly like the character, you can't play it?

I'll agree that there are times when a bona fide requirement, like being the stunt double for an actor playing a character, when looking as much like the actor as possible makes sense, but outside of that, especially when we are just talking about people doing this for *fun*, the point is not to create a perfect facsimile, but instead to show off your enjoyment of a show/movie/comic/game.

Now, when you look at the pics that monstro linked to, do you see them as '"ha, ha, that's funny" inaccurate cosplay', because I don't see them that way at all. I see them as dressing up as their favorite characters and having fun with it. To think that it is funny and inaccurate because they don't have the same skin tone as the actor isn't funny, actually. Do you laugh at them because the actor was 6'2", and they are only 5'8"? Do you laugh at them because they don't have the bulging muscles that the characters (and often times even the actors) have?
  #104  
Old 02-03-2019, 03:45 PM
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I certainly wouldn't shy away from including someone's sex as part of their description or identity either
  #105  
Old 02-03-2019, 03:50 PM
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You can also bet if I'm cosplaying froto, I'm gonna be walking around on my knees as much as possible.
  #106  
Old 02-03-2019, 03:52 PM
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I certainly wouldn't shy away from including someone's sex as part of their description or identity either
Those things are important to some people, to others, they are less important than what type of person they are, how good a cook they are, how generous, or kind, or how much of an asshole or jerk they are.

There are many, many descriptions of people that do not rely on skin color or gender. Now, if you are describing someone to a valet picking someone up in the airport, then physical descriptions make sense. If you are inviting someone over for a dinner party, or you are calling someone in for an interview, then if you choose to make that part of the description, then you are saying that that is an aspect of their character that is important to you.
  #107  
Old 02-03-2019, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by monstro View Post
Hairstyles are not an innate trait. They are styles. Dr. J's afro was a deliberate, intentional look the same way that David Bowie's red mullet was. So yes, those things are essential elements to their costume. Skin color is not, since they didn't choose their skin color and their skin color doesn't distinguish them from anyone else.
Thank you for a very thoughtful response. I didn't necessarily mean just copying a hairstyle, tho. I'm talking about "hair". If a person is portraying Lucille Ball, and they make their hair curly and red, well, isn't that Lucille Ball's natural hair "style"? How is this trait different than skin color then?

I agree that a mohawk or very long hair is a style choice, but color and straight/curly are not necessarily choices.
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Since I haven't said there's anything "wrong" with doing anything, your question is strange to me. But no, there's nothing "wrong" with mimicking someone's natural eye color, especially if we're talking about an unusual eye color. But for 99.9% of the real historical or contemporary figures that people might want to cosplay, getting the eye color exactly right is completely unnecessary since eye color isn't that noticeable a feature. If we're talking about a costume contest with a sizeable grand prize, I might be tempted to put in some blue eye contacts if I'm going as Anderson Cooper--just to show the judges how committed I am. But otherwise, no. If I can't convince people I'm "Anderson Cooper enough" with my mannerisms and a stylish white wig, then wearing contacts isn't going to help.
Again, thank you for a very thoughtful response.

I hope I'm not coming across as overly antagonistic; your posts are a great help in clarifying and condensing much nuanced thought. I am certain they will help me to articulate why blackface is a bad idea when I am face-to-face with someone who isn't playing Devil's Advocate.

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 02-03-2019 at 03:59 PM.
  #108  
Old 02-03-2019, 04:04 PM
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Unless you look exactly like the character, you can't play it?

I'll agree that there are times when a bona fide requirement, like being the stunt double for an actor playing a character, when looking as much like the actor as possible makes sense, but outside of that, especially when we are just talking about people doing this for *fun*, the point is not to create a perfect facsimile, but instead to show off your enjoyment of a show/movie/comic/game.

Now, when you look at the pics that monstro linked to, do you see them as '"ha, ha, that's funny" inaccurate cosplay', because I don't see them that way at all. I see them as dressing up as their favorite characters and having fun with it. To think that it is funny and inaccurate because they don't have the same skin tone as the actor isn't funny, actually. Do you laugh at them because the actor was 6'2", and they are only 5'8"? Do you laugh at them because they don't have the bulging muscles that the characters (and often times even the actors) have?

Exactly.

The logic of Darren Garrison's argument leads us to a very messed-up conclusion: To be good cosplayers, black people have to stick to either black characters--the few that exist--or aliens or monsters. But whites are off-limits unless you want people to laugh at you. Because there's no way they can ever look like a white character, and if you can't look like a character, you might as well not even bother.

Sure, a black person can whiten their skin. But would they really look white? Or would they look like a damn clown, wearing make-up that distracts from their costume?
  #109  
Old 02-03-2019, 04:07 PM
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You didn't answer my question. Do you think those people I linked to are cosplaying "wrong" since they don't look exactly like the characters they are representing?

Cuz personally, I don't think that's the point of cosplay. I think cosplay is about representing the essence of a character in such a way that the inconsequential differences in physical appearance aren't even noticeable. Cosplay about how much you love a character. If you love a character enough and you have enough resources to craft an awesome costume, who cares if you skin doesn't match? That seems like such a petty thing to get hung up on, for reals.
Especially since different artists might draw details of characters differently.
  #110  
Old 02-03-2019, 04:08 PM
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Those things are important to some people, to others, they are less important than what type of person they are, how good a cook they are, how generous, or kind, or how much of an asshole or jerk they are.

There are many, many descriptions of people that do not rely on skin color or gender. Now, if you are describing someone to a valet picking someone up in the airport, then physical descriptions make sense. If you are inviting someone over for a dinner party, or you are calling someone in for an interview, then if you choose to make that part of the description, then you are saying that that is an aspect of their character that is important to you.
Or if I'm trying to look like them.
If I'm trying to cosplay a woman I bet I wear fake breasts.
If I'm froto I'm on my knees.

But if I'm agent J well , you'll just have to trust that I'm not K
  #111  
Old 02-03-2019, 04:10 PM
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Exactly.

The logic of Darren Garrison's argument leads us to a very messed-up conclusion: To be good cosplayers, black people have to stick to either black characters--the few that exist--or aliens or monsters. But whites are off-limits unless you want people to laugh at you. Because there's no way they can ever look like a white character, and if you can't look like a character, you might as well not even bother.

Sure, a black person can whiten their skin. But would they really look white? Or would they look like a damn clown, wearing make-up that distracts from their costume?
I could easily airbrush a black person white in a very realistic fashion

Hell I've airbrushed clothes on people where it's difficult to tell they aren't clothes.

Last edited by Littleman; 02-03-2019 at 04:13 PM.
  #112  
Old 02-03-2019, 04:15 PM
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Or if I'm trying to look like them.
If I'm trying to cosplay a woman I bet I wear fake breasts.
Maybe Dolly Parton or someone that is known for their large breasts, and I still think that that's focusing on the traits that *you* think are important. If you are cosplaying say, that girl from Pokemon, Misty, you probably would not need to get any augmentation for your chest.
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If I'm froto I'm on my knees.
Frodo? was a hobbit, not a human. And he was played by an actor that was more or less normal height. If I were cosplaying him, I'd go grey cape and a ring about my neck. If you really want to get into character, grow out your foot hair and go barefoot.
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But if I'm agent J well , you'll just have to trust that I'm not K
The one of you that says "I make this look good", is agent J.

Last edited by k9bfriender; 02-03-2019 at 04:17 PM.
  #113  
Old 02-03-2019, 04:28 PM
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Maybe Dolly Parton or someone that is known for their large breasts, and I still think that that's focusing on the traits that *you* think are important. If you are cosplaying say, that girl from Pokemon, Misty, you probably would not need to get any augmentation for your chest.

Frodo? was a hobbit, not a human. And he was played by an actor that was more or less normal height. If I were cosplaying him, I'd go grey cape and a ring about my neck. If you really want to get into character, grow out your foot hair and go barefoot.


The one of you that says "I make this look good", is agent J.
The are really short people , and they are humans and I am gonna go really short, probably with rubber feet attached to my knees.

Out of practicality I'll probably only make my entrance that way but I'm still gonna do it.


And it doesn't need to be dolly. Wonderwoman, Jackie o , almost any really. Do I have to have the breasts, not necessarily , but I'm going to because it will make me look more like them.

Last edited by Littleman; 02-03-2019 at 04:29 PM.
  #114  
Old 02-03-2019, 04:29 PM
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Logic or consistency has no place among those who want to use weaponized language as a social bludgeon. Why do you think ridiculous concepts like digital blackface and cultural appropriation for cooking a taco make global news?
Yeah, NOW they are ridiculous. Give it 10 or 20 years and a white person cooking a taco WILL be seen as a sign of racism.
  #115  
Old 02-03-2019, 04:37 PM
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Yeah, NOW they are ridiculous. Give it 10 or 20 years and a white person cooking a taco WILL be seen as a sign of racism.
Most likely
  #116  
Old 02-03-2019, 04:39 PM
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Yeah, NOW they are ridiculous. Give it 10 or 20 years and a white person cooking a taco WILL be seen as a sign of racism.
I made tacos last night, I'm white.

Who is coming after me?

Your fears are unfounded, and based on poorly understood actions that are completely unrelated to the claims that octopus made.









(I know tacos on a saturday is against all reason and accountability, but I did it anyway.)
  #117  
Old 02-03-2019, 04:39 PM
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Thank you for a very thoughtful response. I didn't necessarily mean just copying a hairstyle, tho. I'm talking about "hair". If a person is portraying Lucille Ball, and they make their hair curly and red, well, isn't that Lucille Ball's natural hair "style"? How is this trait different than skin color then?
Few people would recognize a Lucille Ball costume if someone was wearing, say a red Carrot Top wig with it. Or an Orphan Annie wig. Both are curly and red, but Lucille Ball didn't wear her hair in either of those fashions. So I would think a Lucille Ball costume with those kinds of wigs would be kind of stupid. If those wigs were the only thing a a person could find, they'd be better off ditching them and just putting their hair up in this kind of up-do.


Of course, if they're just dressing up to amuse themselves, it doesn't matter what they do. But I think if their goal is to really capture Lucille Ball's essence so that they can be recognized by true fans, then not bothering to do anything to the hair except the superficial stuff is kind of missing the point. I don't think Lucille Ball would want someone confusing her for Carrot Top. Or Orphan Annie. And I don't think a true fan would be impressed by a Carrot Top or Orphan Annie-look alike trying to pass themselves off as Lucille Ball.

Hair is always styled a certain way. If a person can't be bothered to simulate someone's signature hairstyle, whether through a wig or through their own hair-dressing skills, then trying to get the the color and texture just right seems rather pointless to me. The style is what people see first. Hairstyle is what separate Elvis from a rando nobody.
  #118  
Old 02-03-2019, 04:42 PM
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Most likely
Probably, in that racists will act as though they are being treated as racist while they make a taco, because they will be racists making a taco, but it would actually be because they are racists, who just happening to make a taco.

Then, since there were racists who were making a taco who got called out as racists while making a taco, it will validate your fears.

But a non-white racist making a taco... all good.

Last edited by k9bfriender; 02-03-2019 at 04:42 PM.
  #119  
Old 02-03-2019, 04:50 PM
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Or if I'm trying to look like them.
If I'm trying to cosplay a woman I bet I wear fake breasts.
The "fake breasts" wouldn't be nearly as important as the hair, clothes, shoes, and make-up, and accessories. Breasts, real or fake, are not the salient difference between men and women.

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But if I'm agent J well , you'll just have to trust that I'm not K
Why would you choose to go as J but not K, if skin color is that important to you? Do you look more like a pale-faced Will Smith than you do Tommy Lee Jones?
  #120  
Old 02-03-2019, 04:54 PM
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Probably, in that racists will act as though they are being treated as racist while they make a taco, because they will be racists making a taco, but it would actually be because they are racists, who just happening to make a taco.

Then, since there were racists who were making a taco who got called out as racists while making a taco, it will validate your fears.

But a non-white racist making a taco... all good.
Seems like it, how much is just sensationalism though? And how much will actually become mainstream.....who knows.

There are already very serious articles and University studies that conclude playing black video game characters contributes to racism.
  #121  
Old 02-03-2019, 04:56 PM
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The "fake breasts" wouldn't be nearly as important as the hair, clothes, shoes, and make-up, and accessories. Breasts, real or fake, are not the salient difference between men and women.



Why would you choose to go as J but not K, if skin color is that important to you? Do you look more like a pale-faced Will Smith than you do Tommy Lee Jones?
J is cooler.

As I said the brssts wouldn't be necessary but it would add to the look, and I doubt anyone would take issue with it.
  #122  
Old 02-03-2019, 05:01 PM
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Now if there were some major history of wearing breasts as a means to degrade women .... Probably would be more sensitivity
  #123  
Old 02-03-2019, 05:07 PM
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According to this, wigs are off limits if they are outside your ethnic group.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...WaIhOK&ampcf=1
  #124  
Old 02-03-2019, 05:13 PM
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Traditional native American outfits also seem to be completely out of the question these days.

Though 25 years ago kids in head dresses was commonplace.

And guess what head dresses are not innate.
Just a style worn by Indian chiefs.

Doubt I could get away with that even and my great grandmother was fully native. In fact 3 of my great grandparents were. I just don't identify native because they had very little influence in my cultural upbringing.

Last edited by Littleman; 02-03-2019 at 05:16 PM.
  #125  
Old 02-03-2019, 05:30 PM
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All of those folks saying "But other than the history, why is it offensive?": Why "other than the history"? Isn't that enough of a reason?
Because there's two different conversations being conflated here:

1. Is a white person, in modern-day America, made up to be a black person, offensive?

2. Is dressing up as another race inherently offensive?

Some people are responding to question 1 with "race-switching would be unnecessary/stupid/racist in any case", and thus you have people segueing to question 2.
  #126  
Old 02-03-2019, 05:38 PM
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If we are barring wigs, skin color, and traditional dress now, how long before its completely impractical to dress outside your ethnic group ?
And won't this just be fantasy segregation

Again, I'm set on yeah don't paint your skin because of the history. I'm just trying to explore opinions on some of this other stuff to get a better understanding of it all.

Last edited by Littleman; 02-03-2019 at 05:41 PM.
  #127  
Old 02-03-2019, 05:44 PM
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According to this, wigs are off limits if they are outside your ethnic group.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...WaIhOK&ampcf=1
I'm pretty sure I can find a website calling Obama sleeper terrorist gay anti-vax Muslim. But that doesn't mean a whole lot of people believe he is.
  #128  
Old 02-03-2019, 05:50 PM
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I'm pretty sure I can find a website calling Obama sleeper terrorist gay anti-vax Muslim. But that doesn't mean a whole lot of people believe he is.
Oh I know, but really take a look at a bunch of articles and guides along those lines.

They mostly say the same thing.

I'm with you, wigs.....who cares as long as it isn't purposely a mockery.

It does kind if seem we are headed that way though.

I'm trying to sort out what is sensationalism and what isn't really.
  #129  
Old 02-03-2019, 05:54 PM
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Even then there's gotta be exceptions, like if I'm wearing a carrot top or don king im probably mocking the person.
  #130  
Old 02-03-2019, 05:55 PM
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If we are barring wigs, skin color, and traditional dress now, how long before its completely impractical to dress outside your ethnic group ?
And won't this just be fantasy segregation

Again, I'm set on yeah don't paint your skin because of the history. I'm just trying to explore opinions on some of this other stuff to get a better understanding of it all.
If you work for it, you can find a blog out there somewhere that will tell you that anything that you want to do is off limits. So, if you are basing your ethics on what some blogger out there says, then I guess you are going to run into some rather restrictive and contradictory rules, like your agreement that a white person making tacos will be racist in a decade or so. It won't be, sure there may be some blogger out there that says so, but it's as good a chance that they are trolling the SJW's than they actually are SJW's, and in either case, it's not going to make it into mainstream thought.

Most of this stuff isn't all that hard, and if you mess up, a mea culpa is usually going to be more than enough. If you double down, and try to play like you don't understand why mocking another ethnic group for its physical characteristics can offend, then you will offend more.
  #131  
Old 02-03-2019, 06:24 PM
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Quite a lot of native dress has cultural and religious significance that places it into the "don't wear this if you aren't this" category. Not to mention that pretty much NO costume is in any way historically or culturally correct and there is no such thing as a generic "Indian" costume. The First Families are a hugely diverse group of nations with their own languages and traditions and dress and trying to make up some generic "Looky me, I'mma Injun!" costume fucking sucks. Don't do that.

Like dressing in generic military camo is okay but fuck you if you wear a dress uniform and add a bunch of medals you didn't earn. Dressing up as the pope will get your ass kicked in some places--because a lot of people have a ton of reverence for the pope and don't appreciate some rando appropriating the dress and demeanor of the head of their church.

There's a difference between cosplay and mockery and if you go too far in the wrong direction it's not gonna go well for you.
  #132  
Old 02-03-2019, 06:25 PM
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One of the current characters using the name "Spider-Man" is Miles Morales. He is half African-American and half Dominican.
My grandson will be thrilled to know that, thanks!
  #133  
Old 02-03-2019, 06:39 PM
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I'd imagine it's somewhat dependant on tour audience too. If you're going to a bar where nobody knows who you are it's probably easier to offend than if you're in your house with a bunch of people who know you. Regardless of their ethnicity
  #134  
Old 02-03-2019, 06:41 PM
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Id have no issue with some one black doing whiteface for character but it doesn't have the history.

Would it be offensive to suggest?
It ran into trouble on Aus TV. But that was mostly because (a) we had an American guest on the show, and (b) it mocked an American who had recently died.

Even in Aus we know better than to speak ill of the dead, but in that particular case it hadn't really registered with Australians that the dead entertainer was actually a real person, respected by people who worked with him. Australians really mostly thought of him as a fictional character who we saw on TV.
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Old 02-03-2019, 06:55 PM
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Quite a lot of native dress has cultural and religious significance that places it into the "don't wear this if you aren't this" category. Not to mention that pretty much NO costume is in any way historically or culturally correct and there is no such thing as a generic "Indian" costume. The First Families are a hugely diverse group of nations with their own languages and traditions and dress and trying to make up some generic "Looky me, I'mma Injun!" costume fucking sucks. Don't do that.

Like dressing in generic military camo is okay but fuck you if you wear a dress uniform and add a bunch of medals you didn't earn. Dressing up as the pope will get your ass kicked in some places--because a lot of people have a ton of reverence for the pope and don't appreciate some rando appropriating the dress and demeanor of the head of their church.

There's a difference between cosplay and mockery and if you go too far in the wrong direction it's not gonna go well for you.
I actually had a tribal card, went the sweat lodges and that for a while.
I remember saying something about Indians at a bar at one point and being corrected by a black guy bc "indians" was offensive.
He was a little embarrassed when I showed him that ID card, but then I was embarrassed at having to show it and realized, hey I'm white, might as well face it.
Early twenties lol
  #136  
Old 02-03-2019, 07:18 PM
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Complicated question, in some ways. Very easy in others.

Most blackface is offensive, no question about it. Just have a look at the examples at the end of Spike Lee's Bamboozled or at the online Jim Crow Museum ( https://www.ferris.edu/jimcrow/ ) or at old minstrel acts on YouTube. It's cringeworthy, no doubt about it. And it isn't excused by "everyone was doing it" or "It was the style". There were plenty of objections and protests at the time to show people that black people found all of this insensitive. (I've just written a book about a turn-of-the-century amusement park, and this kind of blackface was amazingly common there every year except the last one.) Fortunately, the word has finally gotten out. Unfortunately, some people still don't get it, or think they're too "cool" for it -- Maybe they feel it's OK if you treat it ironically. But it's still offensive. I've been to costume parties where people actually showed up in blackface, which shocked me. According to James Loewen, a college in Vermont had a yearly minstrel show into the 1960s. Black students protested, and it finally started sinking in, but they tried to salvage the show by changing it to literal "greenface" -- using green makeup in place of black. But it didn't really fool anyone -- the Greenface characters were stil poking fun at the exaggerated characteristics and stereotypes of black people. You can't hide blackface by making it green.


There's only one case where I'm willing to cut some slack -- dramas like Cloud Atlas, where the point is to show the fundamental connectedness and brotherhood of humankind, had actors of African and European ancestry made up as Asian characters, and actors of Asian ancestry playing characters of European extraction. The didn't go as far as having actors of European ancestry playing characters of African background, or vice-versa. I think they knew better than to push those particular buttons. But one of these days I could see that, if the part was not stereotyped, poking fun at one ethnic or cultural group, not belittling anyone.
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Old 02-03-2019, 07:28 PM
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f you love a character enough and you have enough resources to craft an awesome costume, who cares if you skin doesn't match? That seems like such a petty thing to get hung up on, for reals.

Well, to be fair I'm "hung up" on all ways that a cosplayer looks wildly different from the character they ar potraying. It isn't a complex issue--the less you look like the character you are cosplaying, the less accurate a cosplay it is.

If you weigh 98 pounds you won't make a very convincing Hercules and if you weigh 350 maybe you better go for Sumo wrestler instead of ninja.
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Old 02-03-2019, 07:42 PM
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It ran into trouble on Aus TV. But that was mostly because (a) we had an American guest on the show, and (b) it mocked an American who had recently died.

Even in Aus we know better than to speak ill of the dead, but in that particular case it hadn't really registered with Australians that the dead entertainer was actually a real person, respected by people who worked with him. Australians really mostly thought of him as a fictional character who we saw on TV.



Yeah, "disrespect for Michael Jackson" wasn't the problem that people had with that skit. (There is a GD thread about it.)
  #139  
Old 02-03-2019, 07:45 PM
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Well, to be fair I'm "hung up" on all ways that a cosplayer looks wildly different from the character they ar potraying. It isn't a complex issue--the less you look like the character you are cosplaying, the less accurate a cosplay it is.

If you weigh 98 pounds you won't make a very convincing Hercules and if you weigh 350 maybe you better go for Sumo wrestler instead of ninja.
I know this is a hijack, but why should "convincing" be important to a fun hobby?

Or do you only consider professional recreators to be legitimate cosplayers?
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  #140  
Old 02-03-2019, 07:48 PM
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Well, to be fair I'm "hung up" on all ways that a cosplayer looks wildly different from the character they ar potraying. It isn't a complex issue--the less you look like the character you are cosplaying, the less accurate a cosplay it is.

If you weigh 98 pounds you won't make a very convincing Hercules and if you weigh 350 maybe you better go for Sumo wrestler instead of ninja.
And if I am a 98 lb. fan of Kevin Sorbo? I am not allowed to put on some leather pants and make grunting noises?

I'm overweight, so the only thing I can show my appreciation of is a sport that is known to require some extreme physique?

Are you also saying that if you are a woman, then you should stick to female characters?

It's a costume, it's not a production. The point is to enjoy yourself and show off your favorite characters. It's not about accuracy.

If I put on a straw hat, red shirt, blue shorts, and a yellow sash, then if you have seen One Piece, you know who I am portraying, no matter my gender or skin tone. If I really want to sell it, I'll get a long rubber arm. If you have not seen One Piece, you will not know who I am portraying, not matter how "accurate" I am.
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Old 02-03-2019, 07:49 PM
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(BTW--while I might think that altering skin appearance to resemble another race might not be inherently racist, the Austrailian skit is far, far, far beyond that line into "racist as fuck" territory.)

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  #142  
Old 02-03-2019, 07:52 PM
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I know this is a hijack, but why should "convincing" be important to a fun hobby?

Cosplayers are free to wear whatever they want--just as I am free to personally judge the success or failure of their costuming by whatever criteria I want.
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Old 02-03-2019, 07:56 PM
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Cosplayers are free to wear whatever they want--just as I am free to personally judge the success or failure of their costuming by whatever criteria I want.
Oh. You think they are dressing up to entertain you, and not to amuse themselves. Okay.
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  #144  
Old 02-03-2019, 07:58 PM
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Cosplayers are free to wear whatever they want--just as I am free to personally judge the success or failure of their costuming by whatever criteria I want.
Just be aware that if you articulate the "failure" of their accuracy based on the mismatch of skin tone, then, rightly or wrongly, you will probably receive criticism about that, some of which may imply that you have a racial bias.
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Old 02-03-2019, 08:00 PM
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There's only one case where I'm willing to cut some slack -- dramas like Cloud Atlas, where the point is to show the fundamental connectedness and brotherhood of humankind, had actors of African and European ancestry made up as Asian characters, and actors of Asian ancestry playing characters of European extraction. The didn't go as far as having actors of European ancestry playing characters of African background, or vice-versa. I think they knew better than to push those particular buttons. But one of these days I could see that, if the part was not stereotyped, poking fun at one ethnic or cultural group, not belittling anyone.
I love "Cloud Atlas", but the "yellow facing" always takes me way out of the movie. I don't find it offensive. It's just that the actors look straight-up weird. When I first watched the movie, I thought the focus had suddenly shifted to another planet--one populated by Romulan-like humanoids or something.

I actually think a major part of the bad feelings surrounding racial mimicry stems from the crazy way people usually end up looking. It seems disrespectful because the end result is usually ugly and strange. It looks like mockery rather than mimicry.
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Old 02-03-2019, 08:09 PM
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Well, to be fair I'm "hung up" on all ways that a cosplayer looks wildly different from the character they ar potraying. It isn't a complex issue--the less you look like the character you are cosplaying, the less accurate a cosplay it is.

If you weigh 98 pounds you won't make a very convincing Hercules and if you weigh 350 maybe you better go for Sumo wrestler instead of ninja.
But if you have no love for sumo wrestling, then it doesn't make any sense to cosplay as a sumo wrestler. Even if you are 350 lbs. And it seems to me you'd have to have serious love to be motivated enough to wear only a loin cloth in a crowded convention hall.
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Old 02-03-2019, 08:16 PM
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(BTW--while I might think that altering skin appearance to resemble another race might not be inherently racist, the Austrailian skit is far, far, far beyond that line into "racist as fuck" territory.)
It's hard to believe that was only 20 years ago.

It is a tiny bit funny that the white guy painted his face white to look like Michael Jackson. But he could have at least not worn that horrible afro wig. Michael Jackson didn't have hair like that even when his skin was brown.
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Old 02-03-2019, 08:25 PM
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It's hard to believe that was only 20 years ago.

How hard is it to believe that it was only 10 years ago?
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Old 02-03-2019, 08:38 PM
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How hard is it to believe that it was only 10 years ago?
Well shut my mouth. The youtube commenters were saying it was from twenty years ago, so I just went with it.
  #150  
Old 02-03-2019, 08:41 PM
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Well, to be fair I'm "hung up" on all ways that a cosplayer looks wildly different from the character they ar potraying. It isn't a complex issue--the less you look like the character you are cosplaying, the less accurate a cosplay it is.

If you weigh 98 pounds you won't make a very convincing Hercules and if you weigh 350 maybe you better go for Sumo wrestler instead of ninja.
Coplayers don’t dress up as Hercules only to be a “convincing” Hercules. They also do it to be their own kind of Hercules.

Especially in the case of a fictional character, there’s no reason to set the standard for a cosplay based on one particular manifestation of that character.

I recall recently listening to a podcast about cosplaying. I can’t recall which one, perhaps an episode of Imaginary Worlds, which included an interview witch an African-American ciaplayer.

And he made it a point to say when he cosplays as Superman, he’s not cosplaying as “a black version of Superman” or some “alternative reality Superman.” He’s Superman, period. In this case Superman looks like him.

Judging a cosplayer based on a standard that makes the cosplayer’s own body a detriment reflects a lack of imagination and a misunderstanding of the whole exercise.

Last edited by Acsenray; 02-03-2019 at 08:42 PM.
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