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  #251  
Old 02-06-2019, 08:53 AM
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Re: Arthur. Most of what we think of as Arthur's legend has evolved over time, due to influences from the rest of Europe and indeed the world. Forget black people, plate armor is ridiculous in an Arthurian story based on the time period and location. But the legend of Arthur evolves with the times, reflecting more recent ideals of a knight on horseback, and interactions with knights from around the world.

The original Arthur might not have hung around with a lot of Moorish knights, but he wouldn't have been hanging around with a random French dude named Lancelot, either.

Last edited by Trafalgar Laura; 02-06-2019 at 08:54 AM.
  #252  
Old 02-06-2019, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Novelty Bobble View Post
You seem to be assuming that paint on your face is inherently "ugly" and that one way is in some way "better" than the other.
No I'm not assuming that. If you have access to a professional make up artist and high quality face paint, you might very well be able to pull off a realistic complexion outside of your natural one. But most people don't have access to these things.

But even if you do have access, my point is that it's gratuitous to go there for most cosplay.Whenever someone treats what is gratuitous as necessary, they run the risk of looking foolish to a lot of people.

You, personally, may not agree people look foolish when they do this. But that doesn't change the fact that others see different.
  #253  
Old 02-06-2019, 09:37 AM
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That's doesn't make the "white culture" any clearer at all.

when you use the phrase "white culture" in such a broad-brush manner it certainly sounds like you are. You still haven't defined what you mean by "white culture"
If you bundle all skin tone changes under the banner of "blackface" and consider "blackface" to be a terrible thing regardless of context and intent then sure, you can make that statement becuase you've defined the offence into existence.
What's more it allows you to accuse anyone with a more nuanced view of racism or similar malice. That's handy for you, no analysis required.

Absolutely not self-evident at all.

If I asked you to transform yourself into an accurate portrayal of real-world or fantasy characters I suspect you would place "value" on pretty much every aspect of them if you were seeking to be accurate. I see no reason why the average person would place greater "value" on skin tone over the "value" of hair or costume or build or accent or mannerisms.

Here's Harry Enfield as Nelson Mandela

Racist? not racist? acceptable to you? not acceptable to you?
Sorry chief but I have no interest in playing your little game where I constantly have to define white culture to your satisfaction while you sit back and pretend you don't understand my point. I have defined it as much as I am willing to for this particular subject. Perhaps this would be a good time to point out that you seem to be the only person in this thread who has issues with this.

If I was tasked with transforming myself into a character I would place "value" on the things I felt most defined that particular character...skin color is not one of those things. For people who think blackface is acceptable, skin color is one of the things they place "value" on. I do not consider any form of blackface to be a nuanced view of racism. I consider it to BE racism. You are free to disagree with me but your disagreement does not change my position on the subject.

After 40+ years of being black in America I no longer have the energy, patience or desire to judge individual acts of questionable racial behavior. If I see someone in blackface I'm not going to stop and interview them about their thoughts, feelings and beliefs. If you can't be bothered to give a damn about how and why you might be offending someone then I can't be bothered to give a damn about why you're doing it. I'm just gonna assume you're racist and keep on steppin'

TL;DR
I don't give a damn about your intentions and no one owes you the benefit of the doubt. Especially when you behave in a questionable manner.
  #254  
Old 02-06-2019, 09:51 AM
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I think this is an important and critical point. Given out national history, there are certain things that whites people should not expect to be given the benefit of the doubt for.

We as observers are not obligated to look “into your heart” to determine whether you are truly racist. You and I live in the same world. We expec my you to act with knowledge of the context of that world.

Last edited by engineer_comp_geek; 02-06-2019 at 11:28 AM. Reason: corrected missing word
  #255  
Old 02-06-2019, 10:09 AM
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And, again, to the dissenters: nobody is physically stopping you from wearing brown makeup. You CAN do it.

We're explaining to you WHY you WILL receive an extremely negative and possibly hostile reaction to that, and why most of us will consider a negative reaction perfectly justified.

It's possible there will be a day where racial harmony is such that the echos of blackface have grown silent. In that day, it's possible a white guy could put on some brown makeup and pretend to be a black character and nobody will bat an eye. We aren't there. And it's NOT your job as a white guy to tell black people how they should feel about it.
  #256  
Old 02-06-2019, 10:48 AM
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Sorry chief but I have no interest in playing your little game where I constantly have to define white culture to your satisfaction while you sit back and pretend you don't understand my point.
It isn't a game. You use an imprecise term and refuse to define it.

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I have defined it as much as I am willing to for this particular subject.
Well you haven't defined it in any meaningful way.

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Perhaps this would be a good time to point out that you seem to be the only person in this thread who has issues with this.
And what exactly is it that you think I have issues with? It is perfectly possible for someone to change their skin tone with racist and malicious intent and when that happens it should be condemned. I simply don't join in with your blanket accusation of racism in all circumstances. It matters how it is done and why it is done. Truly, if intent doesn't matter then all human interactions are screwed.

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If I was tasked with transforming myself into a character I would place "value" on the things I felt most defined that particular character...skin color is not one of those things. For people who think blackface is acceptable, skin color is one of the things they place "value" on.
I suspect that many people would use the term "blackface" in a much more narrow manner. i.e. merely making your skin darker (and there can a variety of reasons for doing so) would not be "blackface" for them, I don't think you get to choose their definition for them.

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I do not consider any form of blackface to be a nuanced view of racism. I consider it to BE racism.
Just so I'm clear, any form You didn't respond to the video I posted, do you think that is unacceptable?

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After 40+ years of being black in America I no longer have the energy, patience or desire to judge individual acts of questionable racial behavior. If I see someone in blackface I'm not going to stop and interview them about their thoughts, feelings and beliefs. If you can't be bothered to give a damn about how and why you might be offending someone then I can't be bothered to give a damn about why you're doing it. I'm just gonna assume you're racist and keep on steppin'
I don't believe you. I challenge you on that. I think you would treat people differently based on their intent if they were to explain it to you.

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I don't give a damn about your intentions and no one owes you the benefit of the doubt.
I think that is a bleak and negative approach to life but then I'm not from the USA so maybe you think that is the best path forward for your specific situation.
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  #257  
Old 02-06-2019, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Novelty Bobble View Post
I think that is a bleak and negative approach to life but then I'm not from the USA so maybe you think that is the best path forward for your specific situation.
After several centuries during which Europeans first invented the concept of whiteness and then used it as a weapon to visit hell on earth against non-whites as a group, and in a current reality in which nonwhiteness is still a factor in systematic physical and non-physical violence throughout western societies, this is an irresponsible approach.

You simply want people to ignore the realities of cultural history and their daily lives to give you personally the benefit of the doubt. Itís spiteful of you to even ask for it.
  #258  
Old 02-06-2019, 11:30 AM
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And what exactly is it that you think I have issues with? It is perfectly possible for someone to change their skin tone with racist and malicious intent and when that happens it should be condemned. I simply don't join in with your blanket accusation of racism in all circumstances. It matters how it is done and why it is done. Truly, if intent doesn't matter then all human interactions are screwed.
It has been repeatedly explained to you that doing so in public WILL have the consequence of upsetting, offending, and angering people and reminding them of systematic oppression of people of color throughout the western world.

With that knowledge, ANY "intent" you have is now marred by the fact that you've willingly privileged YOUR desires over the feelings of others. You don't now get to choose to pretend you don't know that. If you darken your skin to emulate the complexion of a person of color, you ARE now intentionally offending people. You are making a choice to cause upset or even remove the sense of safety for people of color.

At best, you CAN make an argument that an IGNORANT person unaware of the history and connotations COULD paint their skin and be relatively blameless UNTIL the context is explained to them. You do NOT have the luxury of claiming that same ignorance. You don't even NEED to understand WHY it upsets people -- you merely need to be aware that it will. And you are.

If you paint your skin to emulate another ethnicity, you are now acting with corrupt intent.

Is it POSSIBLE to mitigate that? Arguably. Tropic Thunder and It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia both arguably "pulled it off," but only by featuring it in a context of very carefully highlighting just how ill-advised and taboo it is. And both still did upset some people. If you feel like you have a performance with the same level of nuance, care, and awareness...well, go for it. But, based on your posts here, I really, really don't believe you do.
  #259  
Old 02-06-2019, 12:01 PM
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Anybody else half offended by Frank Gorshin's character in Star Trek?
  #260  
Old 02-06-2019, 12:05 PM
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Anybody else half offended by Frank Gorshin's character in Star Trek?
Of course. The real question is: which half?
  #261  
Old 02-06-2019, 12:25 PM
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So, is wearing blackface to a party once when you are a teenager so bad that it is better to be governed by a Republican?
  #262  
Old 02-06-2019, 12:56 PM
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After several centuries during which Europeans first invented the concept of whiteness and then used it as a weapon to visit hell on earth against non-whites as a group, and in a current reality in which nonwhiteness is still a factor in systematic physical and non-physical violence throughout western societies, this is an irresponsible approach.
Irrelevant to any point I'm making.

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You simply want people to ignore the realities of cultural history and their daily lives to give you personally the benefit of the doubt. Itís spiteful of you to even ask for it.
Judge people on intent and each case on its merits. That is the only thing that matters.
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  #263  
Old 02-06-2019, 12:58 PM
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is it POSSIBLE to mitigate that? Arguably. Tropic Thunder and It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia both arguably "pulled it off," but only by featuring it in a context of very carefully highlighting just how ill-advised and taboo it is. And both still did upset some people. If you feel like you have a performance with the same level of nuance, care, and awareness...well, go for it. But, based on your posts here, I really, really don't believe you do.
So in other words, I'm right. I said.

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It matters how it is done and why it is done
Which you have just agreed with.
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  #264  
Old 02-06-2019, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Novelty Bobble View Post
Irrelevant to any point I'm making.



Judge people on intent and each case on its merits. That is the only thing that matters.
If what you mean by intent is to read their minds or to take as given what they claim post how, then no, thatís not only what matters.

Their intent is colored by what we know about our history and the world we live in every day. They donít get to be treated like they were born yesterday.
  #265  
Old 02-06-2019, 01:14 PM
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If what you mean by intent is to read their minds or to take as given what they claim post how, then no, thatís not only what matters.
You start from an assumption that no malice is intended and work from there. Did you see the Harry Enfiield clip I posted? You are happy to accept purely benign intent there yes?
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  #266  
Old 02-06-2019, 01:25 PM
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It has been repeatedly explained to you that doing so in public WILL have the consequence of upsetting, offending, and angering people and reminding them of systematic oppression of people of color throughout the western world.

With that knowledge, ANY "intent" you have is now marred by the fact that you've willingly privileged YOUR desires over the feelings of others. You don't now get to choose to pretend you don't know that. If you darken your skin to emulate the complexion of a person of color, you ARE now intentionally offending people. You are making a choice to cause upset or even remove the sense of safety for people of color.

At best, you CAN make an argument that an IGNORANT person unaware of the history and connotations COULD paint their skin and be relatively blameless UNTIL the context is explained to them. You do NOT have the luxury of claiming that same ignorance. You don't even NEED to understand WHY it upsets people -- you merely need to be aware that it will. And you are.

If you paint your skin to emulate another ethnicity, you are now acting with corrupt intent..
This line of argument can be extended to cover literally any aspect of life that has the potential to cause offence to anyone.

i.e. absolutely everything.

It ends up at the absurd conclusion that knowingly doing anything that might cause offence, regardless of specific intent, means you are now acting with corrupt intent.

Utter nonsense. Such a line of thought ends artistic expression and free speech. By the same rationale I should no longer criticise the Catholic Church or Donald Trump because of the offence it'll cause to the acolytes of both.
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  #267  
Old 02-06-2019, 01:27 PM
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You start from an assumption that no malice is intended and work from there. Did you see the Harry Enfiield clip I posted? You are happy to accept purely benign intent there yes?
Is that how you approach all things? 95% of the tme, using blackface is intended to be harmful and mocking. You expect people to automatically give the benefit of the doubt that anytime they see anyone in blackface, that it is really that 5% of the time that it is actually sincere?

That's not going to happen. No matter how much you stamp your feet and screw your eyes, you are not going to convince the entire world to "just give blackface a chance."

But, hey, whatever you want, no one is going to stop you. You can dress up in any fashion that you desire. But you *will* be judged for it, and unless you manage to be in the 5%, and convince people that you are in that 5%, you will be judged harshly. Even if you really are in that 5%, there will still be those who still don't think that it was appropriate.

you want to argue that you should have the freedom to color your skin, well, you do, you can do it. You also want to argue that others should not have the freedom to criticize you for it, and well, they do, they can do it.

What do you propose is done to prevent anyone from getting the wrong idea about the intent behind your blackface? Should we have a PSA? Should we pass laws? How should we go about preventing you from receiving any criticism?
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Old 02-06-2019, 01:29 PM
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This line of argument can be extended to cover literally any aspect of life that has the potential to cause offence to anyone.

i.e. absolutely everything.

It ends up at the absurd conclusion that knowingly doing anything that might cause offence, regardless of specific intent, means you are now acting with corrupt intent.

Utter nonsense. Such a line of thought ends artistic expression and free speech. By the same rationale I should no longer criticise the Catholic Church or Donald Trump because of the offence it'll cause to the acolytes of both.
Well, yeah, that's just basic. If something is offensive, then if you know that it is offense, then doing it anyway is being intentionally offensive. That would be the case for anything that people find to be offensive.

If you don't mind being offensive, then knock yourself out. Personally I don't really care if I offend Trump supporters, so I have no problem with criticizing trump.

In the same way, if you have no problem offending pretty much everyone, then you should have no problem wearing blackface.
  #269  
Old 02-06-2019, 01:37 PM
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Is that how you approach all things?
yes, pretty much, seems to work pretty well.

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95% of the tme, using blackface is intended to be harmful and mocking.
is it? In my experience the use of it is vanishingly rare and the times when it happens (such as in the clip that I linked to) the intent is cleary not to harm or to mock.

YMMV
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  #270  
Old 02-06-2019, 01:46 PM
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This line of argument can be extended to cover literally any aspect of life that has the potential to cause offence to anyone.

i.e. absolutely everything.

It ends up at the absurd conclusion that knowingly doing anything that might cause offence, regardless of specific intent, means you are now acting with corrupt intent.

Utter nonsense. Such a line of thought ends artistic expression and free speech. By the same rationale I should no longer criticise the Catholic Church or Donald Trump because of the offence it'll cause to the acolytes of both.
This is precisely why I previously stated I didn't believe you had the understanding or nuance needed to "pull off" painting your face. Your lack of ability to understand a specific case without running off to a "slippery slope" argument shows you do not seem to understand the significance of the scenario you're toying with.

Calculating the "math" of how much you will offend vs. how desperately you need to take a particular action CAN be challenging. This, however, is not such a case. There is a very, very minimal upside and a well-documented downside.

Your invocation of criticizing political opponents is an interesting point, though. When you do so, I would ABSOLUTELY state that part of your intent MUST be to cause adherents of opposing viewpoints discomfort. And that is generally a decision people make because they feel that such discomfort is warranted if not necessary. So, again, your decision to paint your face is a decision to knowingly cause black people who see you to have to question their standing and their safety.

If you really think "making your costume look slightly more believable" is worth it, you're allowed to make that decision. But you DON'T get to pretend that's not the decision you're making, and you certainly don't get to act shocked by the negative reaction you would receive.
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Old 02-06-2019, 02:10 PM
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You start from an assumption that no malice is intended and work from there.
I'm sorry, no. You start from the context of the world you live in, in which blackface has an extensive and saturated history of mocking and demeaning a group of people as a tool to keep them in a repressed position in society, a position that after half a millennium is still not equal.

And race-based mockery and intimidation is a practice that echoes even today in schoolyards and watering holes and sporting venues. It may hopefully be in a general decline, but we know that there's an upswing in racially abusive behavior triggered by something as simple as the Trump election and presidency. So, white supremacy is alive and well in this country, and blackface has a firm position in the toolkit of white supremacy.

You don't get to pretend you have fallen out of the sky to get any benefit of the doubt on that count. And even if you think you are pure of heart, deciding to go ahead with it in the face of the history of white supremacy, institutional racism, and the part that blackface plays in it, means you have chosen to join yourself to that history.

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Did you see the Harry Enfiield clip I posted? You are happy to accept purely benign intent there yes?
No.
  #272  
Old 02-06-2019, 02:26 PM
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yes, pretty much, seems to work pretty well.
then when people criticize you for wearing blackface, then you should start from the assumption that no malice is intended and work from there.
Quote:

is it? In my experience the use of it is vanishingly rare and the times when it happens (such as in the clip that I linked to) the intent is cleary not to harm or to mock.

YMMV
I see that you are from england, so you may not have the same history as the US. In your experience, it may be vanishingly rare, but in the US experience, not so much.

It used to be much, much, much more common, and is is clearly to mock. The reason that it is vanishingly rare these days is because it is something that people understand is offensive, and they don't feel that their need to get a skin tone just right overrides other people's desire to not be mocked.

So, if blackface is accepted in England, then go nuts, use all the colors you want and rejoice in your freedom to do so.

Just take a care if you come over here, as our mileage does in fact vary.

Last edited by k9bfriender; 02-06-2019 at 02:28 PM.
  #273  
Old 02-06-2019, 03:03 PM
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I see that you are from england, so you may not have the same history as the US.
That doesn't mean they have no history with the concept.
  #274  
Old 02-06-2019, 03:56 PM
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Your invocation of criticizing political opponents is an interesting point, though. When you do so, I would ABSOLUTELY state that part of your intent MUST be to cause adherents of opposing viewpoints discomfort. And that is generally a decision people make because they feel that such discomfort is warranted if not necessary
This is illuminating. For me I can categorically state that, when criticising a political position my intention would not be cause discomfort.
If that is what your primary intention is in such situations then I can see why you would ascribe similar motivations to others, you are however, wrong.

Is that really how your discussions pan out?
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  #275  
Old 02-06-2019, 03:57 PM
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then when people criticize you for wearing blackface, then you should start from the assumption that no malice is intended and work from there.
correct, that's exactly the approach I would take.
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  #276  
Old 02-06-2019, 03:58 PM
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It isn't a game. You use an imprecise term and refuse to define it.

Well you haven't defined it in any meaningful way.

And what exactly is it that you think I have issues with? It is perfectly possible for someone to change their skin tone with racist and malicious intent and when that happens it should be condemned. I simply don't join in with your blanket accusation of racism in all circumstances. It matters how it is done and why it is done. Truly, if intent doesn't matter then all human interactions are screwed.

I suspect that many people would use the term "blackface" in a much more narrow manner. i.e. merely making your skin darker (and there can a variety of reasons for doing so) would not be "blackface" for them, I don't think you get to choose their definition for them.

Just so I'm clear, any form You didn't respond to the video I posted, do you think that is unacceptable?

I don't believe you. I challenge you on that. I think you would treat people differently based on their intent if they were to explain it to you.

I think that is a bleak and negative approach to life but then I'm not from the USA so maybe you think that is the best path forward for your specific situation.
If youíre not playing a game then why are we back here discussing this same semantic bullshit? If my working definition of white culture doesnít satisfy you then I fail to see how this is my problem. Once again, the ONLY person in this thread who can not grasp my meaning of white culture is you. Perhaps you should try asking others for further clarification since mine doesnít seem to satisfy your requirements.

You choose to focus solely on intent and I choose to focus on outcome. If someone slams into the back of my car I donít give a shit if they intended to stop. I care that I just got hit and now I need to start dealing with the aftermath of a situation I didnít create. And after a lifetime of wreck after wreck I donít really give a damn why people keep causing these problems, I just want them to stop.

Iím not choosing other peopleís definition of blackface or racism. Iím refusing to allow people like YOU to choose MY definition of blackface and racism. You and yours are free to do whatever you want. And youíre damn right my approach is bleak and negative. Have you ever stopped to wonder exactly what type of bullshit I must have had to deal with to get to such a place? Iím quite simply sick and tired of being sick and tired and there is no end in sight.
  #277  
Old 02-06-2019, 03:59 PM
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No.
you didn't watch it? or don't think there is benign intent?
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  #278  
Old 02-06-2019, 04:07 PM
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This is illuminating. For me I can categorically state that, when criticising a political position my intention would not be cause discomfort.
But are you aware that it might?

I do not criticize trump for the purpose of causing discomfort to his supporters, but I am aware that it may, and I am okay with that.

Same with blackface. You may not wear it to cause discomfort to minorities, but you should be aware that it may, and by wearing it, you are saying that you are okay with that.
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If that is what your primary intention is in such situations then I can see why you would ascribe similar motivations to others, you are however, wrong.
No one has ever changed their mind while being comforted by what they already believe. If you are trying to get someone to change their mind, then you are going to be challenging their beliefs, their ideals, and their perspectives. Having that challenged is not comfortable.

You erroneously claim that the poster said it was their "primary intention", which is not what the poster said at all. What they said is that there must be a part that is intended to offend.

Now, case in point, in correcting your error there, I probably made you feel a bit uncomfortable, which was part of the intent, in that you should feel uncomfortable when you make errors like that, that discomfort will help you to avoid such in the future.
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Is that really how your discussions pan out?
I doubt it, it seems you took the entirely wrong message from the post, and turned it into a passive aggressive attack on the poster.
  #279  
Old 02-06-2019, 04:07 PM
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If youíre not playing a game then why are we back here discussing this same semantic bullshit? If my working definition of white culture doesnít satisfy you then I fail to see how this is my problem.
you haven't defined it
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Once again, the ONLY person in this thread who can not grasp my meaning of white culture is you. Perhaps you should try asking others for further clarification since mine doesnít seem to satisfy your requirements.
is it defined anywhere in the thread? I'm happy to be be wrong. Point me to it.

Quote:
You choose to focus solely on intent and I choose to focus on outcome. If someone slams into the back of my car I donít give a shit if they intended to stop.
You should give a shit, the law certainly does. The person in the car that hit you had a stroke, Still don't give a shit? their brakes failed, still don't give a shit? a wasp flew in the window and stung them in the eye (a real incident I saw), still don't give a shit?

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Iím not choosing other peopleís definition of blackface or racism. Iím refusing to allow people like YOU to choose MY definition of blackface and racism.
I've never told what you definition to use, I am however criticising you when you are using your own, very wide and comprehensive definition of "blackface" to include every single instance of skin darkening and accusing it of racism and malicious intent. I think that is an unhelpful way to react.
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  #280  
Old 02-06-2019, 04:18 PM
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But are you aware that it might?
I am aware that every action or word or belief or opinion I mave have, do or say can cause offence.

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You erroneously claim that the poster said it was their "primary intention", which is not what the poster said at all. What they said is that there must be a part that is intended to offend.
No, I'm very careful with my words, If I misspoke I'd have no problem correcting it and have done so on many occasions but what I actually said was

Quote:
If that is what your primary intention is in such situations then I can see why you would ascribe similar motivations to others
Which is subtly different is it not? It is certainly not me claiming that they said it was their "primary intention"

Quote:
Now, case in point, in correcting your error there, I probably made you feel a bit uncomfortable, which was part of the intent, in that you should feel uncomfortable when you make errors like that, that discomfort will help you to avoid such in the future.
No, no discomfort at all.
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  #281  
Old 02-06-2019, 04:45 PM
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I am aware that every action or word or belief or opinion I mave have, do or say can cause offence.
Well, good then, not sure why you are going down this line of questioning and justification then.
Quote:
No, I'm very careful with my words, If I misspoke I'd have no problem correcting it and have done so on many occasions but what I actually said was

Which is subtly different is it not? It is certainly not me claiming that they said it was their "primary intention"
Ummm, it's not that subtly different. You certainly are implying that you believe that that is their primary motivation, as you then ascribe a consequence to that motivation, and, what you didn't quote of your own, a judgment of that, as well.

They did not say that it was their primary intent, so why did you even bring up the concept of primary intent in the first place?
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No, no discomfort at all.
Right, that's because you didn't learn anything, but instead, just stayed in your comfort zone.
  #282  
Old 02-06-2019, 04:45 PM
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Which is subtly different is it not? It is certainly not me claiming that they said it was their "primary intention"
In which case, you only responded to a hypothetical that you invented. No, causing discomfort is not my PRIMARY INTENT, but I AM aware of it and, as such, choosing to take that action means I accept that intent.

You seem to suggest you have no ability to discern that some actions are more likely to offend than others, and, as such, possible offense is not worth considering in choosing your own actions because you cannot be completely certain.

I can only assume you would go into a restaurant, loudly and copiously fart and spit on the floor, then claim you had no idea that others would find that inappropriate.
  #283  
Old 02-06-2019, 04:47 PM
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I can only assume you would go into a restaurant, loudly and copiously fart and spit on the floor, then claim you had no idea that others would find that inappropriate.
It's not? What, are you supposed to tip now, too?
  #284  
Old 02-06-2019, 04:49 PM
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you didn't watch it? or don't think there is benign intent?
I watched it. I don't give him the benefit of the doubt with regard to his intent. Given the history of blackface, he shouldn't have painted his face. The fact that he chose to do so reflects his callous exercise of his privilege.

It's a racist act by virtue of its place in a society steeped in racism.

"But I didn't mean it that way" doesn't fly with me. He still decided to go ahead with it, and that reflects a disregard for the daily experiences and concerns of non-white people.
  #285  
Old 02-06-2019, 04:52 PM
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Here's the thing. We do not have weekly or even monthly meetings of the Social Justice Warriors league. We do not sit around and decide what terms or phrases to be offended by, we do not determine when it is appropriate to use makeup to alter skin tone. No matter what you do, even if you manage to convince everyone in this thread that there is never anything to be offended by, that isn't going to change the fact that there are still a couple few million people out there who are not part of this conversation.

You seem to complain that there are people who will judge you by the actions that you choose to do in public. Well, complain all you want, they aren't going anywhere.

What we are trying to give is advice, on what will offend, and some reasons as to why that would be. You can criticize this advice, you can complain that this advice makes it unfair for you and your dreams of cosplaying a black character, but that won't change the fact that the advice is sound, if you don't want to receive flak for how you decide to present yourself.

Then the goalposts are moved, not from what I can agree is offensive and shows bad judgement, to what you read some person out there with a blog said once, and you demand that we justify what you remember that one guy said.

If you wear blackface, I will not be personally offended. It is not mocking me or my ethnicity or culture. But I see that it does, and that it shows poor judgment to do so. If you are criticized, then it's not like you were not aware that you would be.

You may as well complain that water is wet and winter is cold, and be upset that we advise you to put on a jacket if you are going out. We are not trying to restrict your freedom of clothing choice, you are welcome to wear shorts and a t-shirt out into the blizzard, but you should be aware that there may be consequences.

Now, as far as those consequences, we can give you some advice on how many people that you will piss off. If you wear stereotypical blackface makeup with the lips and do some mocking singing and dancing, you are going to piss off pretty much everybody. If you wear a wig that is not of your ethnicity, there may be somebody out there that chooses to bring attention to themself by criticizing you. Then there is everything in between, and it is a judgement call. Most people were okay with Tropic Thunder, but I am aware that there are those who were not, even some who have boycotted Downey Jr for it.

the thing is, is that it is a judgement call. Not matter how you do it and how respectful you are, there will be some who are offended. Depending on how sincere your reasons are, and how respectfully you do it, you may offend more or less. However, if you have difficulty even understanding why such things would be offensive, then you are demonstrating a lack of that capacity for judgement, and it is best you just stay away from it all together.
All true, my only real complaint is the lack of hard fast rules. I'm sure that seems really dumb when you're talking about peoples feelings but it's just something I struggle with immensely.

You guys I think gave me a much better idea of rules then trying to sort out every blog and complaint which only seemed to throw on another rule every time I read one.
  #286  
Old 02-06-2019, 05:04 PM
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Oh and check it out, real life 3rd century black knight undoubtedly black like sub Saharan African descent type guy from the paintings.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Maurice
  #287  
Old 02-06-2019, 05:05 PM
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All true, my only real complaint is the lack of hard fast rules.
You think this is inconvenient? Try actually being black and having to slog through complex racial situations--some of them that could result in your becoming dead--on a daily basis.
  #288  
Old 02-06-2019, 05:13 PM
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This whole cultural appropriation thing seems to be divided in 2 camps roughly.

A. It doesn't exist, all culture belongs to everyone.
B. It does exist but whether it's ok or not is wildly different in every single case with no real consistentcy in any of it.

So I'm probably going to ignore it since it's never once come up nor have I ever heard the phrase in real life.
  #289  
Old 02-06-2019, 05:23 PM
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You think this is inconvenient? Try actually being black and having to slog through complex racial situations--some of them that could result in your becoming dead--on a daily basis.
I can't, I'm not even allowed to pretend.

Seriously though it all seems fucking nuts and taking any of it to a point of violence is even more nuts.

The kids are who I worry about most, inheriting all the baggage.
  #290  
Old 02-06-2019, 05:30 PM
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I watched it. I don't give him the benefit of the doubt with regard to his intent. Given the history of blackface, he shouldn't have painted his face. The fact that he chose to do so reflects his callous exercise of his privilege.

It's a racist act by virtue of its place in a society steeped in racism.

"But I didn't mean it that way" doesn't fly with me. He still decided to go ahead with it, and that reflects a disregard for the daily experiences and concerns of non-white people.
Well fair enough. If such a gentle, obvious parody of a beloved world leader by a liberal comedy icon leaves you clutching your pearls then there really is no further discussion to be had.
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  #291  
Old 02-06-2019, 05:39 PM
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It's not logically nonsense. The point is that if you can successfully capture a character or celebrity's essence without slathering ugly paint on your face, then you're going to look stupid and awkward when you choose to slather ugly paint on your face.

The most successful costumes, IMO, are those that tell you exactly whom is being impersonated with the least amount of fluff. Skin color is "fluff", unless you're dressing up as a fictional being like Shrek.

And maybe it's just me, but I much rather go to a costume party where people feel clever and liberated enough to go as characters they look nothing like naturally, than to go to one where everyone sticks with characters they most closely resemble. A tall Asian guy dressed as Mini Me, a curvy white woman dressed like President Camancho, and monstro dressed like David Bowie are going to be infinitely more interesting to see than a bald white guy rather predictably dressed like Mr. Clean.
That just lends some logic to why it's unnecessary.

The rest is again, your feelings,self admittedly.

Bear in mind, if it were acceptable, i guarantee I could airbrush you realistically to any skin tone you wanted.
  #292  
Old 02-06-2019, 05:51 PM
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And points for mentioning president Camacho
Terry crews is actually a talented airbrush artist too

Last edited by Littleman; 02-06-2019 at 05:53 PM.
  #293  
Old 02-06-2019, 06:19 PM
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Here's Harry Enfield as Nelson Mandela

Racist? not racist? acceptable to you? not acceptable to you?
What the fuck did I just watch? Yes, that was racist as fuck. And not acceptable.
  #294  
Old 02-06-2019, 06:23 PM
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a gentle, obvious parody of a beloved world leader
Yeah, I give you one guess how that "gentle" parody would play in South Africa. But I guess we're all just pearl-clutchers
  #295  
Old 02-06-2019, 06:24 PM
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I can't, I'm not even allowed to pretend.
Can you try to be less literal? And maybe accept information about other peopleís experiences?

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Seriously though it all seems fucking nuts
Is that what is fucking nuts? Or is centuries of racism, race-based atrocities, and white supremacy what is fucking nuts?

Take that feeling of ďfucking nutsĒ and apply it a deep dive consideration that it is all based on the fact that a group of people invented the concept of race (specifically, the white race) in order to create a privileged class for themselves and then used that to change the lives of generations of people everywhere.

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The kids are who I worry about most, inheriting all the baggage.
The kids today are in a much better place than the kids yesterday, who didnít live in a world in which the ruling white class had to give a second thought about this. These are growing pains, and much less dire than centuries of blood.
  #296  
Old 02-06-2019, 06:43 PM
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You think this is inconvenient? Try actually being black and having to slog through complex racial situations--some of them that could result in your becoming dead--on a daily basis.
This x1000
  #297  
Old 02-06-2019, 06:46 PM
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I can't, I'm not even allowed to pretend.

Seriously though it all seems fucking nuts and taking any of it to a point of violence is even more nuts.

The kids are who I worry about most, inheriting all the baggage.
The kids will inherit this baggage so long as the adults continue to refuse to properly address the problem
  #298  
Old 02-06-2019, 07:01 PM
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You should give a shit, the law certainly does. The person in the car that hit you had a stroke, Still don't give a shit? their brakes failed, still don't give a shit? a wasp flew in the window and stung them in the eye (a real incident I saw), still don't give a shit?
Are will still talking about blackface? This seems like something else...or does the law explicitly state that blackface is acceptable if a white personís brakes fail (or whatever the hell that analogy is supposed to allude to. God, youíre not gonna make me define analogy now are you?)

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Originally Posted by Novelty Bobble View Post
I've never told what you definition to use, I am however criticising you when you are using your own, very wide and comprehensive definition of "blackface" to include every single instance of skin darkening and accusing it of racism and malicious intent. I think that is an unhelpful way to react.
I donít give a damn about your criticism. You can define whatever you want however you want and I can do the same. When you say ďitís an unhelpful way to react you mean itís unhelpful for you. Personally, I have found it to be an excellent way to reduce the random bullshit Iíve had to deal with and quickly identify people who are (as Charlie Murphy puts it) habitual line steppers
  #299  
Old 02-06-2019, 08:15 PM
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God, youíre not gonna make me define analogy now are you?
Just remember, you can't spell "analogy" without "anal" and "log."
  #300  
Old 02-06-2019, 08:30 PM
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Just remember, you can't spell "analogy" without "anal" and "log."
I never thought of it that way...now, I will never be able to forget.
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