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  #51  
Old 08-07-2019, 12:57 PM
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This. I find it ridiculous that we make our children recite a loyalty oath in school. Is forced patriotism real patriotism? And the anthem before sporting events is equally dumb. Except maybe for international matches.
Same here ..

To be perfectly blunt, if I were 'an enemy of the state' I would have no problem standing up and reciting the floweriest most patriotic loyalty pledge possible, while planning to blow up the White House or take down the electrical grid for the Eastern States....

Parroting crap does not mean you believe it and will obey it ...
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  #52  
Old 08-07-2019, 01:02 PM
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Road races often begin with a prayer, down here in Georgia. I guess there’s some tiny shred of justification in that the prayer usually asks that no one get injured and everybody has fun, but it’s still pretty silly. I always make a point of stretching or tying my laces or setting my watch, for my own amour propre, if nothing else.

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Only if they're using the Southern Pledge of Allegiance, which contains the additional line "for two hundred and thirty-eight out of two hundred and forty-three years."

Again with the anti-Southern prejudice. Our pledge doesn’t mention anything about the Confederacy.

It talks about barbecue and the SEC, instead.
  #53  
Old 08-07-2019, 02:00 PM
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There's a car dealer here who recites the Pledge of Allegiance in his commercials, complete with a waving flag.

I'd never buy a car from him.
  #54  
Old 08-07-2019, 02:08 PM
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I think it's what the right wing kids are calling "virtue signaling" nowadays. It says: "Look at me, I'm patriotic, aren't you?" It's the same thing with prayer. (Of any religion that makes a show or a display of it.) If you really believe that it's doing something, communicating, what have you, then you should see that it doesn't matter if you do it quietly in your head vs. a public declaration.
This, and in addition the pledge has been done at these meetings as a matter of tradition and which person wants to piss off everyone else by suggesting that it be done away with?

Sure, starting from a clean slate, maybe we wouldn't do it, but inertia is a powerful thing. Even if I hated the pledge with a passion, do I want to get something positive done at this meeting or a future one, or should I alienate myself to others when it really doesn't make a damned bit of difference.
  #55  
Old 08-07-2019, 02:13 PM
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This, and in addition the pledge has been done at these meetings as a matter of tradition and which person wants to piss off everyone else by suggesting that it be done away with?

Sure, starting from a clean slate, maybe we wouldn't do it, but inertia is a powerful thing. Even if I hated the pledge with a passion, do I want to get something positive done at this meeting or a future one, or should I alienate myself to others when it really doesn't make a damned bit of difference.
It does make a damned bit of difference. It makes a lot of normal people very uncomfortable with nationalistic displays of false patriotism. I didn't recite the Pledge in school and I sure as Hell wouldn't do it as an adult. There is something seriously wrong with people who need all of us to constantly pledge allegiance to our flag or to the nation for which it stands. Do any other countries on Earth do such a thing?
  #56  
Old 08-07-2019, 02:13 PM
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Out of curiosity, would that be the case for all oaths and pledges? That you will not hold to them if you feel that the conflict with your pledge to God, but that you will still take them and promise to uphold them anyway?
I hope and pray to always have such strength and faith to do exactly that if needed, for what you ask can be translated to I would do the morally right thing regardless of what I have promised or committed myself to.

It is for that reason that I don't typically do such pledges, and when I do I usually add my faith and commitment to God's Kingdom is first. However the Pledge of Allegiance has the ability to do the right thing regardless of the pledge right in the text of the pledge one takes, so it's somewhat better in taking.

The opposite can lead to the Nuremberg trials defense of "I was just following orders", which I hope and pray I never have to use.

Last edited by kanicbird; 08-07-2019 at 02:15 PM.
  #57  
Old 08-07-2019, 02:16 PM
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There's a car dealer here who recites the Pledge of Allegiance in his commercials, complete with a waving flag.

I'd never buy a car from him.
Does he do it really fast in that jam-a-bunch-of-words-in-at-the-end-of-the-ad style? That would be kind of funny.
  #58  
Old 08-07-2019, 02:22 PM
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This, and in addition the pledge has been done at these meetings as a matter of tradition and which person wants to piss off everyone else by suggesting that it be done away with?

Sure, starting from a clean slate, maybe we wouldn't do it, but inertia is a powerful thing. Even if I hated the pledge with a passion, do I want to get something positive done at this meeting or a future one, or should I alienate myself to others when it really doesn't make a damned bit of difference.
If "it really doesn't make a damned bit of difference", why not suggest it not be done? Surely no one would have a problem with not doing the pledge if it doesn't matter?
  #59  
Old 08-07-2019, 02:44 PM
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It does make a damned bit of difference. It makes a lot of normal people very uncomfortable with nationalistic displays of false patriotism. I didn't recite the Pledge in school and I sure as Hell wouldn't do it as an adult. There is something seriously wrong with people who need all of us to constantly pledge allegiance to our flag or to the nation for which it stands. Do any other countries on Earth do such a thing?
First, Americans don't give two good hard fucks what other countries do. I'm not sure why this keeps coming up in debates about everything. France can do what France wants and we don't complain. This is uniquely American, so I don't care if Cameroon doesn't do it.

But most importantly, it is about what you are at the meeting to accomplish. You are at the condo meeting to keep people from, say, throwing cigarette butts in the entrance way. Do you want to piss off 90% of the people there by complaining about the pledge, or do you want cigarette butts out of the entrance way?

Most people probably don't care whether the pledge is recited or not, but would be suspicious of someone so offended by it as to move for its abolishment. I was simply answering why it hasn't changed, but I find your attitude shocking and certainly not something that is mainstream. Most people just put their hands over their heart and say it even if they would rather not do it. People likely don't care one way or the other. To care so deeply to abolish it would raise eyebrows.
  #60  
Old 08-07-2019, 02:46 PM
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If "it really doesn't make a damned bit of difference", why not suggest it not be done? Surely no one would have a problem with not doing the pledge if it doesn't matter?
That's what "it doesn't matter" means. You don't care enough to upset the status quo and "suggest it not be done."

I mean, it doesn't matter that the chairman sits in the middle, correct? Let's have him sit second to middle from now on. That makes no difference. Why have change just for change's sake?
  #61  
Old 08-07-2019, 02:49 PM
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A group display of patriotism and national allegiance? At a private commercial/organizational meeting that has nothing to do with state matters? It seems fascistic to me, not childish.
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  #62  
Old 08-07-2019, 02:51 PM
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First, Americans don't give two good hard fucks what other countries do. I'm not sure why this keeps coming up in debates about everything. France can do what France wants and we don't complain. This is uniquely American, so I don't care if Cameroon doesn't do it.
Ummm, I'm an american, and I do give at least 2 fucks about what other countries do. Or, is that a true scotsman test?
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But most importantly, it is about what you are at the meeting to accomplish. You are at the condo meeting to keep people from, say, throwing cigarette butts in the entrance way. Do you want to piss off 90% of the people there by complaining about the pledge, or do you want cigarette butts out of the entrance way?
And no part of that has anything to do with the pledge. If they also required that everyone do the hokey pokey before the meeting started, is that something that you just need to do to avoid pissing off the guy that takes it *way* too seriously?
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Most people probably don't care whether the pledge is recited or not, but would be suspicious of someone so offended by it as to move for its abolishment. I was simply answering why it hasn't changed, but I find your attitude shocking and certainly not something that is mainstream. Most people just put their hands over their heart and say it even if they would rather not do it. People likely don't care one way or the other. To care so deeply to abolish it would raise eyebrows.
"Go along to get along." Words that tyrants love to hear.
  #63  
Old 08-07-2019, 02:52 PM
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It does make a damned bit of difference. It makes a lot of normal people very uncomfortable with nationalistic displays of false patriotism. I didn't recite the Pledge in school and I sure as Hell wouldn't do it as an adult. There is something seriously wrong with people who need all of us to constantly pledge allegiance to our flag or to the nation for which it stands. Do any other countries on Earth do such a thing?
No.

And it does make those of us who are from such countries stand out and need to show passport to people who get up in our face about "not respecting our country!!!!!!" Uh, it's not my country and in mine the only people who do anything remotely resembling pledging loyalty to its institutions are soldiers when they finish Basic and politicians when they take their posts...


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First, Americans don't give two good hard fucks what other countries do.
You sure give a shit about what people from other countries do when faced with the need to either lie in an oath (then again, a lot of Americans apparently reckon that oaths don't matter) or be assaulted by some asshole who can't conceive of a white-looking person not being American.
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  #64  
Old 08-07-2019, 03:11 PM
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I hope and pray to always have such strength and faith to do exactly that if needed, for what you ask can be translated to I would do the morally right thing regardless of what I have promised or committed myself to.

It is for that reason that I don't typically do such pledges, and when I do I usually add my faith and commitment to God's Kingdom is first. However the Pledge of Allegiance has the ability to do the right thing regardless of the pledge right in the text of the pledge one takes, so it's somewhat better in taking.

The opposite can lead to the Nuremberg trials defense of "I was just following orders", which I hope and pray I never have to use.
I'm now picturing how you respond to, say, employment contracts. "Sorry, I can't promise to come into work; I only make promises to god."


As for the subject, I'd refuse to come to any meeting that started with a fascistic display like that.
  #65  
Old 08-07-2019, 03:30 PM
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It does make a damned bit of difference. It makes a lot of normal people very uncomfortable with nationalistic displays of false patriotism. I didn't recite the Pledge in school and I sure as Hell wouldn't do it as an adult. There is something seriously wrong with people who need all of us to constantly pledge allegiance to our flag or to the nation for which it stands.
Agreed, 200%.
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Do any other countries on Earth do such a thing?
North Korea?
  #66  
Old 08-07-2019, 03:54 PM
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Is there something else we could say or do?
I nominate a classic:

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Hey, America, you're so fine, you're so fine you blow my mind, America. <fart noise>
  #67  
Old 08-07-2019, 04:35 PM
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When I lived in Texas, it seems that, most gatherings had an invocation of some sort. Usually it was a minister from a local church who said too much while trying to sound profound.



I would normally just stare at the floor and bite my lip during these things.
I used to work at a state government agency, where required semi-annual meetings always began with the pledge and sometimes with an invocation.

I didn't bother staring at the floor during the prayer. Just looked around the room with my hands behind my back.

As for the pledge, the last few years I was there my office was just down the hall from the conference room. I learned to be soooo busy and sneak in the back 5 minutes late to avoid it.

No chairs available by that time so I had to stand the whole time, but eh.

Last edited by Sicks Ate; 08-07-2019 at 04:36 PM.
  #68  
Old 08-07-2019, 04:48 PM
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I used to work at a state government agency, where required semi-annual meetings always began with the pledge and sometimes with an invocation.

I didn't bother staring at the floor during the prayer. Just looked around the room with my hands behind my back.

As for the pledge, the last few years I was there my office was just down the hall from the conference room. I learned to be soooo busy and sneak in the back 5 minutes late to avoid it.

No chairs available by that time so I had to stand the whole time, but eh.
Way to stay inconspicuous.

  #69  
Old 08-07-2019, 04:57 PM
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Stuff like reciting the Pledge or even just singing the national anthem (with the possible exception of World Cup games) freaks me out. Just feels squicky.
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Old 08-07-2019, 05:20 PM
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First, Americans don't give two good hard fucks what other countries do. I'm not sure why this keeps coming up in debates about everything. France can do what France wants and we don't complain. This is uniquely American, so I don't care if Cameroon doesn't do it.
I think it might tell us something about the propriety of such an act, if no other country in the world (except perhaps North Korea) requires a pledge of loyalty at things like Condo Association meetings. How would you feel if you had to pledge your love of country before you could get your drivers license renewed or order dinner at the local diner?

It this is truly "uniquely American," I'd sure like to understand why "we" (and only we) think it's a god thing to do. I sure don't.


Quote:
But most importantly, it is about what you are at the meeting to accomplish. You are at the condo meeting to keep people from, say, throwing cigarette butts in the entrance way. Do you want to piss off 90% of the people there by complaining about the pledge, or do you want cigarette butts out of the entrance way?
I care a heck of a lot more about whether we have to recite a loyalty pledge than I care about cigarette butts in the entrance way.


Quote:
Most people probably don't care whether the pledge is recited or not, but would be suspicious of someone so offended by it as to move for its abolishment. I was simply answering why it hasn't changed, but I find your attitude shocking and certainly not something that is mainstream. Most people just put their hands over their heart and say it even if they would rather not do it. People likely don't care one way or the other. To care so deeply to abolish it would raise eyebrows.
I don't understand why anyone would want this to be part of a ritual at a meeting or in a school. Other than "tradition," do you have any insight?
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Old 08-07-2019, 05:32 PM
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Way to stay inconspicuous.



I am unaccustomed to being inconspicuous.
  #72  
Old 08-07-2019, 05:38 PM
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I think it's unnecessary to recite the pledge for this type of meeting unless the condo association is also the civic organization (city, county, state, or nationally organized).

Someone above mentioned prayer at opening, I can certainly see that if the condo assoc. is religious in origin, as some are. Otherwise, no.
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Old 08-07-2019, 06:35 PM
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It's silly and unnecessary, but I don't think I'd make a stink about it. I certainly wouldn't make a big show of refusing to recite the pledge; I would just quietly not participate. Everyone else can do what they want to do.
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Old 08-07-2019, 06:41 PM
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It this is truly "uniquely American," I'd sure like to understand why "we" (and only we) think it's a god thing to do. I sure don't.
I could be wrong about this, but I think it's a response to godless communism and, more specifically, the fact that Joseph McCarthy created an environment of paranoia where being perceived as unamerican could literally destroy your life and career.

Between ingrained habit and periodic resurgences of similar paranoia, we never got out of the habit of announcing, "No, I'm not russian, really!"
  #75  
Old 08-07-2019, 06:54 PM
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Between ingrained habit and periodic resurgences of similar paranoia, we never got out of the habit of announcing, "No, I'm not russian, really!"
Has Trump ever been observed reciting the Pledge? If so, it shows you how little value such an exercise has.
  #76  
Old 08-07-2019, 06:57 PM
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I'm now picturing how you respond to, say, employment contracts. "Sorry, I can't promise to come into work; I only make promises to god."


....
I have found that it doesn't work like that. The biblical quote that explains what our work is and how we are provided for is in the biblical quote below, the bold is the short summary.

I have found that our work and employment is not these contracts, but the work God wants us to do, and in that God provides for our needs. I've lived that. In your example many times I was exempt from such things without even asking or mentioning a objection. So it's nothing that has come up. In other cases there were days I was lead to go hiking during a work day (because of the people I would meet and interact with, sometimes a important work day. I would ask for the day off and give my reason, I'm going hiking, and that's all they needed to hear. They wished me a good hike and no mention of missing a critical day was brought up.

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25 “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes? 26 Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27 Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life[e]?

28 “And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith? 31 So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

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  #77  
Old 08-07-2019, 07:59 PM
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. . . . Most people probably don't care whether the pledge is recited or not, but would be suspicious of someone so offended by it as to move for its abolishment. I was simply answering why it hasn't changed, but I find your attitude shocking and certainly not something that is mainstream. Most people just put their hands over their heart and say it even if they would rather not do it. People likely don't care one way or the other. To care so deeply to abolish it would raise eyebrows.
Would to care so deeply as to be offended by a proposal to drop the practice equally raise eyebrows? (Serious question from a non-American.)
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Old 08-07-2019, 08:04 PM
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When I lived in Texas, it seems that, most gatherings had an invocation of some sort.
"Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn"
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Old 08-07-2019, 08:32 PM
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"Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn"
Is it just me, or did anyone else immediately prostrate upon reading that??
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Old 08-07-2019, 08:33 PM
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Anyway, set the flag near the door and have everyone high-five it as they enter.
Or maybe give it a hug.
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Old 08-07-2019, 08:54 PM
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I'd sure like to understand why "we" (and only we) think it's a god thing to do.

I think you answered your own question.
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Old 08-07-2019, 08:58 PM
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I would not be surprised if people who want a public pledge to precede assemblies (be they football games or condo meetings) tend to be on the conservative end of the political spectrum than those who do not want a public pledge to precede assemblies. It's that lockstep mentality
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Old 08-07-2019, 08:59 PM
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Adults reciting the Pledge of Allegiance


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Originally Posted by UDS View Post
Would to care so deeply as to be offended by a proposal to drop the practice equally raise eyebrows? (Serious question from a non-American.)


Yes, I'm curious too. The threats of violence if the Pledge is discontinued, as recounted in the news item Procrustus quoted in post 48 - is that a typical response?
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  #84  
Old 08-07-2019, 09:18 PM
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First, Americans don't give two good hard fucks what other countries do.
That pretty much sums it up.

Not a very good thing, IMHO, but it's your country, from the condo meetings up to the POTUS.
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Old 08-07-2019, 09:29 PM
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First, Americans don't give two good hard fucks what other countries do.
Yeah, until they won’t join in our foolish and misguided wars. Then we rush to rename our fast food so they don’t accidentally get mentioned at the Mickey Ds drive-thru.
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Old 08-07-2019, 09:31 PM
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Yeah, until they won’t join in our foolish and misguided wars. Then we rush to rename our fast food so they don’t accidentally get mentioned at the Mickey Ds drive-thru.
Fries are my second favorite thing that start with "French".

Don't even get me started on "Greek".
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Old 08-07-2019, 09:45 PM
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Fries are my second favorite thing that start with "French".

Don't even get me started on "Greek".
Toast and yogurt, right?

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Old 08-07-2019, 10:20 PM
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Toast and yogurt, right?



Just got up for a cup of tea because I can't sleep, so......can't decide if that's a joke or a proposition.
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Old 08-07-2019, 10:30 PM
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Yes, I'm curious too. The threats of violence if the Pledge is discontinued, as recounted in the news item Procrustus quoted in post 48 - is that a typical response?
It's presumably rare that anyone would even try to stop this ritual. So, there's really not a "typical response." It most places it either 1) doesn't happen because no one sees the need, or 2) doesn't stop because no one sees a problem. We really are two nations. (under god)
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Old 08-08-2019, 12:03 AM
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Is it just me, or did anyone else immediately prostrate upon reading that??
No, but my eyes did bleed a bit.
  #91  
Old 08-08-2019, 06:49 AM
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Is it just me, or did anyone else immediately prostrate upon reading that??
Have dynamite, will cultist.
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Old 08-08-2019, 07:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Procrustus View Post
I think it might tell us something about the propriety of such an act, if no other country in the world (except perhaps North Korea) requires a pledge of loyalty at things like Condo Association meetings.
I missed where it was required - could you point that out?

Regards,
Shodan
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Old 08-08-2019, 07:38 AM
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I personally, have taken a pledge to never utter the Pledge of Allegiance again in my life. I think it's creepy as all get out, sort of what you see in Nazi Germany or North Korea. I don't think children or anyone else should be asked or required to say it and the sooner we all forget the stupid pledge, the better.

This is something that right wingers really get their panties in a twist about. Many a time I've seen a Facebook post with the pledge followed by: "we used to say this in school but they no longer do for fear of offending someone". Bull fucking shit. It's the law in 45 states that children are treated like little Nazis and have to recite the stupid pledge. On top of that, nobody but nobody has ever in the history of the fucking planet ever said they were doing something or not doing something because they didn't want to offend someone. Then there's the "Pepsi" can outrage that comes up every so often. It goes "oh my God Pepsi put out a can saying One Nation....Indivisible. But they left out 'Under God' because they didn't want to offend anyone. Let's fix them, our money says 'In God We Trust', let's stop buying Pepsi because our money might offend them". Jesus. First of all, it wasn't fucking Pepsi, it was RC. Secondly, does using three words from the pledge obligate you to use "under God" as well? How about one word? If I use the word "the", do I have to say "Under God" because "the" is in the sacred Pledge of Allegiance?

I'm all for a constitutional amendment, ban the pledge and ban the anthem at sporting events.
  #94  
Old 08-08-2019, 10:02 AM
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It's silly and unnecessary, but I don't think I'd make a stink about it. I certainly wouldn't make a big show of refusing to recite the pledge; I would just quietly not participate. Everyone else can do what they want to do.
And if someone else raises a big stink about you quietly not participating?

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Originally Posted by Procrustus View Post
It's presumably rare that anyone would even try to stop this ritual. So, there's really not a "typical response." It most places it either 1) doesn't happen because no one sees the need, or 2) doesn't stop because no one sees a problem. We really are two nations. (under god)
It's not that we don't see a need or a problem, it is a question as to whether it is worth the fight to change it. While we may not see it as a big deal, others do, and while we may not find it worthwhile to make a big stink to stop it, others very well may make a big stink about making you participate.
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Old 08-08-2019, 10:10 AM
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And if someone else raises a big stink about you quietly not participating?
Then I lose the "quietly" part.
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Old 08-08-2019, 10:33 AM
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Then I lose the "quietly" part.
But, I assume that them raising a stink about your non participation in their jingoistic virtue signalling would not cowl you into submitting and joining in?

At some point, someone will demand to know from you, "Why are you making such a big deal of this? Why don't you just follow along so we can talk about cigarettes in the entryway?" completely empty of their self awareness that it is they who are making a big deal about it, and they are the ones that are holding up talking about inconsiderate smokers.
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Old 08-08-2019, 10:42 AM
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But, I assume that them raising a stink about your non participation in their jingoistic virtue signalling would not cowl you into submitting and joining in?
Not just no, but hell no. I've never run into any oath/prayer type thing, but if I did I'd freak out.

The closest I've come was when I had to be "sworn in" two different times, once before testifying in court and once when I got my original passport (IIRC, it was at a govt building). In both cases I declined, explaining that I was an atheist. An affirmation was offered which left out the god part and all was well.
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Old 08-08-2019, 10:48 AM
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I missed where it was required - could you point that out?

Regards,
Shodan
It's seldom* technically required to participate, but there are places that require the bizarre ritual be performed. Sure, many of us just stand their quietly, but the sight of 20 deplorables** saluting a flag can ruin the evening.




*Some schools essentially require participation, despite Constitution, etc.

**I guess I'm in a sour mood today.
  #99  
Old 08-08-2019, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
And if someone else raises a big stink about you quietly not participating?



It's not that we don't see a need or a problem, it is a question as to whether it is worth the fight to change it. While we may not see it as a big deal, others do, and while we may not find it worthwhile to make a big stink to stop it, others very well may make a big stink about making you participate.
Yeah, that's what I do. Especially that one where they ask you to stand for "God Bless America" at sporting events. Usually get a few stares but only rarely will someone say something. Observing that it is not the national anthem is all that it takes. Except once at the Indy 500 where someone persisted. A uniformed serviceman leaned and said to them, "He's right, you know." Fist bump followed.
  #100  
Old 08-08-2019, 12:14 PM
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And if someone else raises a big stink about you quietly not participating?
Then it becomes their fight, not mine.
At best, I’ll not make a stink about them making a stink. Shrug and say “I choose not to recite it.” I owe no further explanation or argument.

At worst, I’ll just be 10 minutes late for meetings from now on, and avoid the silliness altogether.
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