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  #101  
Old 08-08-2019, 12:38 PM
Elendil's Heir is offline
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The Pledge of Allegiance is used to start a relatively small percentage of the local governmental and political events I attend, and is always part of the meetings of the Scout troop whose committee I serve on. I'm patriotic by nature and am glad to take part.
  #102  
Old 08-08-2019, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Procrustus View Post
It's seldom* technically required to participate, but there are places that require the bizarre ritual be performed. Sure, many of us just stand their quietly, but the sight of 20 deplorables** saluting a flag can ruin the evening.
I've heard the same argument about PDAs between gay couples - no one is required to participate, but just seeing it ruins your day.
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Originally Posted by BobLibDem
On top of that, nobody but nobody has ever in the history of the fucking planet ever said they were doing something or not doing something because they didn't want to offend someone.
The St. Louis Park City Council recently tried to eliminate saying the Pledge before meetings because it wasn't inclusive, and so as not to intimidate new immigrants. As the cite mentions, they were more than slightly out of touch with their constituents.

Regards,
Shodan
  #103  
Old 08-08-2019, 01:08 PM
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I'm contrarian by nature and don't like being told what to do.

So, is there always somebody ready to pick up the mantle and carry on with these traditions? If I were designated the person in charge of the proceedings, it would just slip my mind to include the pledge. Maybe it's something along the lines of not belonging to any organization willing to allow someone like me to become a member.
  #104  
Old 08-08-2019, 01:13 PM
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I've heard the same argument about PDAs between gay couples - no one is required to participate, but just seeing it ruins your day.
I don't doubt that there are hateful bigots out there that would make that argument.
  #105  
Old 08-08-2019, 02:01 PM
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Guesses on how well the tradition would go over of having civic meetings begin with the "totally not mandatory" witnessing of the gay couple kissing?
Sure, similar. Right.
  #106  
Old 08-08-2019, 03:25 PM
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The ugly side of enforced patriotism.

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The attorney for a 39-year-old man charged with assaulting a child who didn't take his hat off for the national anthem says his client, compromised by a traumatic brain injury, believes he was acting on an order from President Donald Trump.

Superior resident Curt Brockway was charged Monday with felony assault on a minor. His defense attorney, Lance Jasper, told the Missoulian Wednesday the president's "rhetoric" contributed to the U.S. Army veteran's disposition when he choke-slammed a 13-year-old, fracturing his skull, at the Mineral County fairgrounds on Aug. 3.

"His commander in chief is telling people that if they kneel, they should be fired, or if they burn a flag, they should be punished," Jasper said. "He certainly didn't understand it was a crime."
  #107  
Old 08-08-2019, 03:29 PM
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It seems a bit odd, but no odder than starting with an invocation, which is common enough. Yeah, it rankles. It's typically the same people objecting to getting rid of the pledge that object to getting rid of the invocation. The resistance is coming from the same source, the idea that their personal beliefs are being targetted and eliminated.

I haven't run into the Pledge of Allegiance, but did have a karate organization that performs the national anthem as part of the ceremony. On the one hand, I usually participated because of my own feelings. On the other hand, it was a bit awkward because we're sort of required to make the kids participate - at least stand still. Technically, we're to instruct them to put their hand over their heart, but I sufficed to see they weren't being disruptive.

But I also recall an incident from my sister's high school class. This was 30 years ago, mind you. She had a friend who is Jehovah's Witness. At a pep rally, she got in trouble for not standing for the Pledge. This is a 17 year old senior in high school. Well, my sister joined in protesting. After all, she wasn't being disruptive, her objection was a sincere matter of conscience not just laziness or teenager obstructionism. I think the school finally gave in.

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Yes, I'm curious too. The threats of violence if the Pledge is discontinued, as recounted in the news item Procrustus quoted in post 48 - is that a typical response?
I think actual violent threats are a sign of the hostility of the internet bleeding over into real life. People get death threat phone calls and messages for stuff that happen online. It's a sign of the hostility that people are willing to engage such tactics.
  #108  
Old 08-08-2019, 03:56 PM
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I think actual violent threats are a sign of the hostility of the internet bleeding over into real life. People get death threat phone calls and messages for stuff that happen online. It's a sign of the hostility that people are willing to engage such tactics.
Oh, I'm quite certain that people were hostile to The Other long before there was an internet. Sometimes violently.

What the internet has done is made it so that you can always find an Other to be confronted by, and it has provided you was an endless army of similarly-minded people to yourself to make you feel that you are justified by The People.
  #109  
Old 08-08-2019, 03:57 PM
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People like to have a ritual to open things, does it matter what that ritual is?

When I was in Boy Scouts a million years ago, we didn't start with the pledge of allegiance to the country, we started with the scout oath. (The pledge may have been in there as well, it's been a while, but I will at least agree that something like boy scouts has a bit more justification for displays of patriotism than your average HOA meeting.)

Rather than propose to eliminate the pledge, maybe try coming up with a new, relevant one.

On my honor
I will do my best
to do my duty
to our homes
and our community
and to obey the HOA Law;
to help other people at all times to keep their cigarette butts out of entry ways;
to keep myself physically strong enough to assist in the maintenance and upkeep of our landscaping;
mentally awake enough to recognize when HOA rules do not improve the community,
and morally straight enough not to embezzle HOA funds.
  #110  
Old 08-08-2019, 06:20 PM
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I think actual violent threats are a sign of the hostility of the internet bleeding over into real life. People get death threat phone calls and messages for stuff that happen online. It's a sign of the hostility that people are willing to engage such tactics.
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Originally Posted by begbert2 View Post
Oh, I'm quite certain that people were hostile to The Other long before there was an internet. Sometimes violently.
Yes, personal violence has been a standard tool of the cultural and political right since the beginning. You don't even have to go back very far. Gay-bashing, anti-busing riots, lynchings, the violent repression of the labor movement, and on and on.
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  #111  
Old 08-08-2019, 11:53 PM
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As an American who has lived for almost 30 years, correction, more than 30 years, overseas, the patriotism in America just seems strange
  #112  
Old 08-09-2019, 01:58 AM
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The US Senate disharges a public function for the benefit of the republic. In that context, a formal affirmation of allegiance to the republic has a certain logic. .
This is the body that refused to exercise its responsibility to approve or disapprove a president's nominee for the supreme court. This is the body that no longer considers bills passed by the House. The logic of which you speak is corruption and hypocrisy and sabotage.
  #113  
Old 08-09-2019, 02:02 AM
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This is the body that refused to exercise its responsibility to approve or disapprove a president's nominee for the supreme court. This is the body that no longer considers bills passed by the House. The logic of which you speak is corruption and hypocrisy and sabotage.
Can't disagree, but the criticism there is not that they are reciting the pledge of allegiance, but that they are [i]not[/i[ discharging other, much more important, public duties. The problem isn['t solved, or the criticism rebutted, by getting them to discontinue reciting the pledge, is it?
  #114  
Old 08-09-2019, 04:33 AM
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At the beginning of every meeting at my condo, we are asked to stand and recite the Pledge of Allegiance. Although patriotic, this ritual seems childish since we were all compelled to recite this in school. The National Anthem is too long, and not everyone wants to sing. Is there something else we could say or do?
too long??? do you say that about your . say, grateful Dead meanderings? Why do you hate America so much that 1 minute recitation is so painful? I hear so much hatred to US by so-called citizens that don't move elsewhere!
  #115  
Old 08-09-2019, 05:45 AM
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"Hate America"? Tell me this is sarcasm. You're joking, right?
  #116  
Old 08-09-2019, 06:38 AM
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The St. Louis Park City Council recently tried to eliminate saying the Pledge before meetings because it wasn't inclusive, and so as not to intimidate new immigrants. As the cite mentions, they were more than slightly out of touch with their constituents.

Regards,
Shodan
Close but no cigar. Stopping a practice for not being inclusive or for being intimidating is not the same as saying you don't want to offend anyone, which nobody has ever given as a reason for doing anything.
  #117  
Old 08-09-2019, 07:50 AM
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Can't disagree, but the criticism there is not that they are reciting the pledge of allegiance, but that they are [i]not[/i[ discharging other, much more important, public duties. The problem isn['t solved, or the criticism rebutted, by getting them to discontinue reciting the pledge, is it?
At least they could be honest about it, and pledge their allegiance to their donors, rather than to the flag, for which it stands.
  #118  
Old 08-09-2019, 11:00 PM
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As an American who has lived for almost 30 years, correction, more than 30 years, overseas, the patriotism in America just seems strange
It's all very insecure. We're a country tryhards.
  #119  
Old 08-10-2019, 12:22 AM
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At the beginning of every meeting at my condo, we are asked to stand and recite the Pledge of Allegiance. Although patriotic, this ritual seems childish since we were all compelled to recite this in school. The National Anthem is too long, and not everyone wants to sing. Is there something else we could say or do?
Yeah, tell them to skip it. It isn't needed and serves no purpose.
  #120  
Old 08-10-2019, 01:12 AM
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National anthem: I'll stand and take my hat off. I'm not putting my hand over my GD heart. I'm not that into the ritual.

A vet being paraded out between innings?: Depends how tired I am. Might stand...might not.

Fucking God Bless America??: I'll stand cause its the 7th inning stretch, but I'm sure as hell not taking my hat off again. FFS


The GD pledge of allegiance??? What, are we in a cult?? Are you kidding me?? I think I've run into it a few times at early morning assemblies for my kids. Pretty sure I stood and stared at my feet giving off my best vibe of "Don't look at me, don't talk to me."

Edit: As to the OP....how about someone whip out a banjo and you all sing This Land is Your Land?

Last edited by Dale Sams; 08-10-2019 at 01:14 AM.
  #121  
Old 08-10-2019, 01:18 AM
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As an American who has lived for almost 30 years, correction, more than 30 years, overseas, the patriotism in America just seems strange
As an American who has lived his entire life (almost 74 years) in the U.S., I agree.
  #122  
Old 08-10-2019, 03:11 AM
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I'm the ring announcer for the local pro wrestling promotion. We always begin our shows with the national anthem (in our case, "O Canada"), because we are, after all, an athletic contest, like hockey, baseball, or football.

I've had a few fans tell me that I need to remind all fans to remove their hats and put their hands over their hearts during the national anthem. I tell them that section 2(b) of our Charter means that they don't have to, that they can keep their hats on if they wish, and that "hands over their hearts" is an American thing, and that if they are proud Canadians, they would do no such thing. They would simply stand at attention. Most see our Constitution's reasoning, and act as they see fit. Regardless, if some fans wish to do the American thing, as they are allowed to under our Constitution, I'm not going to comment.

Displaying your patriotism in Canada is a lot different from displaying your patriotism in the US.
  #123  
Old 08-10-2019, 07:21 AM
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they don't have to, that they can keep their hats on if they wish,
Joe Cocker agrees.
  #124  
Old 08-10-2019, 07:47 AM
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Tai chi


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Originally Posted by DaveRaver View Post
At the beginning of every meeting at my condo, we are asked to stand and recite the Pledge of Allegiance. Although patriotic, this ritual seems childish since we were all compelled to recite this in school. The National Anthem is too long, and not everyone wants to sing. Is there something else we could say or do?
Tai chi.

When I was in Tokyo I saw the local supermarket staff doing their morning tai chi each morning. Tai chi is kind of slow anyway, but these guys did it in slow motion.
  #125  
Old 08-10-2019, 09:56 AM
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Ahem.

Randy Newman.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G55cJrUs9VM
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  #126  
Old 08-10-2019, 12:00 PM
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Every time a person enters the condo, have the security guard at the condo's foyer make them perform the pledge of allegiance.
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  #127  
Old 08-10-2019, 12:41 PM
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Tai chi.

When I was in Tokyo I saw the local supermarket staff doing their morning tai chi each morning. Tai chi is kind of slow anyway, but these guys did it in slow motion.
I live in a twin-tower kind of building - two high rises that share a common entrance hall+ miserable token garden. Both are residential towers, but the one I don't live in is basically leased in its entirety by the Chinese embassy to house their low-to-mid level personnel and their families.

It will never cease to both puzzle and amuse me to come down in the evening to see 4 or 5 little old ladies powerwalking together in a circle in the entry hall to the rythm of a ghetto blaster softly playing horribly cliché Chinese restaurant covers of pop songs, while another old dude watches and encourages - I've always assumed he was the political commissar, but he could just be the chaperone .

Last edited by Kobal2; 08-10-2019 at 12:43 PM.
  #128  
Old 08-10-2019, 01:24 PM
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As to the OP....how about someone whip out a banjo and you all sing This Land is Your Land?
Be sure to sing all the verses.

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Originally Posted by Spoons View Post
I'm the ring announcer for the local pro wrestling promotion. We always begin our shows with the national anthem (in our case, "O Canada"), because we are, after all, an athletic contest .
Canada does that too?

I've never managed to figure out what athletic contests have to do with national anthems. That is, I guess I can see it at the Olympics, when it's more or less the countries competing against each other; but what does it have to do with contests between teams from the same country?
  #129  
Old 08-10-2019, 04:00 PM
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"And then they each charged at the other, thrashing wildly, kicking, and spitting. I've never seen anything like that, Officer!"
  #130  
Old 08-10-2019, 04:04 PM
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FWIW in the UK they used to have mass community singing at the (soccer) Cup Final, where the traditional highlight was the hymn Abide With Me (written in the 1840s by a clergyman who had just learnt he had cancer). I don't know if your condo meeting might consider it"s in the position that "change and decay in all around I see" or that it needs the "help of the helpless" - but might that be a possibility?
  #131  
Old 08-10-2019, 04:29 PM
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I think we'd all enjoy singing On The Street Where You Live. it's an upbeat song that people like. Have you ever heard anyone say, "boy, I just hate that On The Street Where You Live song!!¡? Me neither.

Plus, people could show off a bit on the and ohhhh, the towering feeling part, drawing out the ohhh as long as they are able.

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Can you hear a lark in any other part of town?
Does enchantment pour out of every door?
No, it's just on the street where you live
  #132  
Old 08-10-2019, 04:52 PM
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The U.S. Senate begins every day's session with a prayer and the Pledge. It's hardly childish.
The prayer is childish, no doubt. The pledge makes sense, hoping it reminds them of why they have their job in the first place. They still need to replace the "under god" crap with something meaningful. Like, "...one nation, NO FILIBUSTERING, indivisible..."
  #133  
Old 08-11-2019, 08:34 AM
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It used to be "one nation indivisible". The "under God" was added later, IIRC during the McCarthy era.
  #134  
Old 08-11-2019, 09:45 AM
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The whole enforced patriotism rituals thing is a PITA and it eventually (especially, as mentioned earlier, when you begin having it repeated across the event) makes it become background noise and a clue for a chance to hit the restroom or arrive 3 minutes late. Same for the opening invocations. However I do make very visible if the invocator goes beyond "Yo, FSM, may thy noodly goodness guide us to make good decisions today" and instead begins to show off scripture-quoting prowess or delivering a current events homily.


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Ahem.

Randy Newman.
However I and others share the belief that the Cocker/Basinger audiovisual version as linked by kayaker is one of humanity's great achievements.
  #135  
Old 08-11-2019, 03:51 PM
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I would be on-board with a My Fair Lady tune as an anthem because my late mom looked just like Audrey Hepburn, only a redhead.

I wish people would not use public gatherings to force other to participate in their beliefs.
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  #136  
Old 08-11-2019, 04:54 PM
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At the beginning of every meeting at my condo, we are asked to stand and recite the Pledge of Allegiance. Although patriotic, this ritual seems childish since we were all compelled to recite this in school. The National Anthem is too long, and not everyone wants to sing. Is there something else we could say or do?
I urge you to take the knee while reciting it.

This is indeed childish. I don't think I've had to recite it once since I was in sixth grade about 50 years ago. I would boycott he damned meetings myself.
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  #137  
Old 08-12-2019, 12:14 PM
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Stuff like reciting the Pledge or even just singing the national anthem (with the possible exception of World Cup games) freaks me out. Just feels squicky.


Baseball doesn't have a World Cup...

As to the Pledge of Allegiance, I don't think I'll ever be reciting it again.

Unless one day I choose to renounce the one I gave originally, and later change my mind.
  #138  
Old 08-12-2019, 01:20 PM
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Every time a person enters the condo, have the security guard at the condo's foyer make them perform the pledge of allegiance.
Except for Major Major Major Major. You can’t allow a guy who hasn’t recited the Pledge to recite the Pledge.
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  #139  
Old 08-12-2019, 07:47 PM
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Then throw him out the back window.
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  #140  
Old 08-13-2019, 11:43 AM
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The prayer is childish, no doubt. The pledge makes sense, hoping it reminds them of why they have their job in the first place. They still need to replace the "under god" crap with something meaningful. Like, "...one nation, NO FILIBUSTERING, indivisible..."
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It used to be "one nation indivisible". The "under God" was added later, IIRC during the McCarthy era.
I think it was Mike Myers who suggested "one nation, under Canada...'
  #141  
Old 08-13-2019, 12:32 PM
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Would to care so deeply as to be offended by a proposal to drop the practice equally raise eyebrows? (Serious question from a non-American.)
No more than being offended at kneeling at the National Anthem. Like any ritual, it's accepted that there are some people who take it very seriously.

Plus there's the fact it's traditional, and it sounds like the OP is new, so there could be an added effect of "how dare this new guy come in and change HOW WE'VE ALWAYS DONE THINGS."

The issue with bringing it up is that the outcome is uncertain, and the effect is almost entirely symbolic and ceremonial, not practical. It doesn't actually accomplish any of the goals one would normally bring up at a condo meeting. And you're likely to make at least some people like you less--even if they don't make a big deal out of it.

The only way I'd bring it up at a meeting would be if I had already discussed it with others to know I had someone to second the motion, and at least a good amount of support from people to actually get the procedure modified. Even if it's less formal than that, I'd expect it to be something to be voted on.

Well, that is, if I didn't just regard it as meaningless ritual that no one really believes--if they are even aware of what they are saying (other than maybe the "under God" part that should be removed.). How many people realize they are pledging allegiance to (1) an inanimate object (2) not establishing a monarchy (3) not seceding and (4) freedom and justice for every human being on the planet?

Would I rather it not be used in so many situations? Sure. Do I care enough to make myself a target for those who think it is a big deal, but don't actually uphold that last part? Not really. The main thing you can count on me is support if I actually think it could be stopped in a particular situation. Otherwise, meh.
  #142  
Old 08-14-2019, 06:47 AM
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Is saying the pledge as an adult a relatively recent thing? I grew up in Iowa and the last time I remember saying it would have been 4th grade in around 1970. The schools I went to after that didn't seem to bother. After university I worked in Omaha, Wichita, and Houston and was never heard the pledge, or an invocation for that matter. Maybe the IT industry is too secular or cynical for such things. Has there been a resurgence since I left the US in 1996?
  #143  
Old 08-14-2019, 11:03 AM
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When I lived in Texas, it seems that, most gatherings had an invocation of some sort. Usually it was a minister from a local church who said too much while trying to sound profound.

I would normally just stare at the floor and bite my lip during these things.
This reminds me about the strange situation of high school athletics instructors--not just in Texas--having a secondary role as religious leaders. I'm vaguely aware of football coaches and such that routinely start training sessions with group prayers.

And then there's the Fellowship of Christian Athletes, a student group common even in public (non-religious) schools, which apparently treats kids who play sports as a fertile ground for the next generation of preachers.
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  #144  
Old 08-16-2019, 03:04 AM
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Is saying the pledge as an adult a relatively recent thing? I grew up in Iowa and the last time I remember saying it would have been 4th grade in around 1970. The schools I went to after that didn't seem to bother. After university I worked in Omaha, Wichita, and Houston and was never heard the pledge, or an invocation for that matter. Maybe the IT industry is too secular or cynical for such things. Has there been a resurgence since I left the US in 1996?
Question from a foreigner - is it a bit like singing the national anthem? We don't have any kind of pledge, but obviously every country has a national anthem and chooses to sing it at various events. We used to sing it at the end of term in school.
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Old 08-16-2019, 07:16 AM
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No, not really the same. Based on the examples above, if you were on your golf club's committee then you'd do the pledge before starting a committee meeting. As in the UK, the anthem is sung at sporting events, but before nearly any event, not just internationals.

Back in the day, wasn't the UK national anthem played in cinemas either just before or after the film?
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Old 08-16-2019, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern Piper View Post
Agree with UDS.

Shouldn't the meeting just begin with the chair asking if everyone's got the agenda and calling the meeting to order?

That's how we begin our HOA meetings. Seems to work.
  #147  
Old 08-16-2019, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SanVito View Post
Question from a foreigner - is it a bit like singing the national anthem? We don't have any kind of pledge, but obviously every country has a national anthem and chooses to sing it at various events. We used to sing it at the end of term in school.
British millitary don't pledge in any way when they finish Basic or take up their commisions? Spanish military and elected representatives have different pledges, but they're specifically linked to the job at hand: it doesn't really matter whether Sargento Morales is terribly fond of Spain or not (after all, he may not even be a Spanish citizen), but he is expected to "pledge to the flag" in representation of his allegiance to the rest of the Spanish military. Similarly, a City Counselor may perfectly well be an independentist or a foreign citizen, but he is expected to pledge to follow those laws applying to his post.
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Last edited by Nava; 08-16-2019 at 09:03 AM.
  #148  
Old 08-16-2019, 09:32 AM
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Adults reciting the Pledge of Allegiance


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nava View Post
British millitary don't pledge in any way when they finish Basic or take up their commisions? Spanish military and elected representatives have different pledges, but they're specifically linked to the job at hand: it doesn't really matter whether Sargento Morales is terribly fond of Spain or not (after all, he may not even be a Spanish citizen), but he is expected to "pledge to the flag" in representation of his allegiance to the rest of the Spanish military. Similarly, a City Counselor may perfectly well be an independentist or a foreign citizen, but he is expected to pledge to follow those laws applying to his post.

I believe among anglophones what is the equivalent to the Spanish “jura de bandera” is called the ”oath” of allegiance/office/enlistment ( in Puerto Rico we use “jurar bandera” to refer to the citizenship naturalization oath). In Britain it is to the Monarch, in the US it is to the Constitution. The ”pledge” to the flag is more like a ritual “saludo” with no legal weight.

Last edited by JRDelirious; 08-16-2019 at 09:33 AM.
  #149  
Old 08-16-2019, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kferr View Post
...Back in the day, wasn't the UK national anthem played in cinemas either just before or after the film?
Just after. Ray Bradbury even wrote a short story, "The Anthem Sprinters," about young men who would run out just after the movie ended but before the song began.
  #150  
Old 08-17-2019, 12:05 AM
Siam Sam is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kferr View Post
No, not really the same. Based on the examples above, if you were on your golf club's committee then you'd do the pledge before starting a committee meeting. As in the UK, the anthem is sung at sporting events, but before nearly any event, not just internationals.

Back in the day, wasn't the UK national anthem played in cinemas either just before or after the film?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elendil's Heir View Post
Just after. Ray Bradbury even wrote a short story, "The Anthem Sprinters," about young men who would run out just after the movie ended but before the song began.
Thailand still does this but with the king's anthem, just before the movie. (It is commonly banded about by the Unwashed Ignorant that it is the national anthem, but that is not true. It is the king's anthem.) You WILL stand up for it.
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Last edited by Siam Sam; 08-17-2019 at 12:05 AM.
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