Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #51  
Old 08-14-2019, 09:43 PM
Little Nemo is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Western New York
Posts: 81,462
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trancephalic View Post
People tend not to realize that pre-MCU, Iron Man was B-tier Marvel at best.
Maybe the character had faded in the nineties. But he was certainly a major character during the late seventies and early eighties when you had Michelinie, Layton, and Romita doing his series.
  #52  
Old 08-14-2019, 11:33 PM
Banquet Bear's Avatar
Banquet Bear is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Posts: 5,427
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdavinci View Post
Better writing, casting, marketing. Effects are better and cheaper. And thereís better penetration into the international market, so the investment is less risky. Plus maybe a little bit of technology in general being more popular, and multiculturalism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethilrist View Post
Also, they entered into the MCU with a plan to make a pile of movies, and signed actors to multiple-movie contracts, so all the parts of the organization had a vested interest in making sure everything worked, from the writing to the casting, directing, special effects, continuity... That's also why the LOTR movies worked out so well. They were really one, big, 12-hour movie. The Avengers saga is like one big 24-hour movie.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kenobi 65 View Post
Which is, I think, part of why the MCU movies have done so well (and as has been already mentioned) -- I think that they have done a tremendous job with casting the roles, and finding actors who have really inhabited the roles and made the characters their own.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahaloth View Post
- casting, casting, casting. Almost every single hero is correct cast.
...so I think its fair to add Sarah Finn, Casting Director who cast almost every actor in the MCU to the list of things that have made these movies such a success.
  #53  
Old 08-15-2019, 02:54 AM
ExTank's Avatar
ExTank is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Creve Coeur, MO
Posts: 6,789
Quote:
Originally Posted by enalzi View Post
I think a better question is, why did the execs back in the day figure out that superhero movies could be wildly successful? Superman (1978) was a huge hit, but no one thought to follow it up with a Batman or Wonder Woman movie. Instead they just kept making more Superman movies, each one doing worse than the one before it. Same thing with Batman (1989). Huge hit, but they didn't bother to make a non-Batman movie until 1997 (Steel).
I think part of the issues is that after the '78 Superman, the studio execs said, "Ok..that went well...let's think about doing another. Anyone got any good story ideas? Oh, and we made a pile of cash off of it, but we can make even more if we slash the budget by a third to a half."

In the MCU, someone had a general idea of where the whole thing was heading from Day 1, or at least made sure that follow-on movies made sense to a greater overall narrative, and didn't skimp on budgeting on anything.
  #54  
Old 08-15-2019, 08:05 AM
Chronos's Avatar
Chronos is offline
Charter Member
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: The Land of Cleves
Posts: 84,492
I think that Thor: The Dark World was probably the weakest of the MCU movies, but I'll agree that they definitely learned lessons from the first one, and applied those lessons. In the first Thor movie, they saw that Hemsworth and Hiddleston had great chemistry together, and so for the second one, they put in lots of interaction between them, which worked great. I don't think that it was enough to make the movie as a whole great, but that one part of it certainly worked very well.

Similarly with the two Ant-Man movies. Plan A for Ant-Man and the Wasp had to have been to base the movie on the interactions between the two title characters. But while they were both fine in their roles individually, they had absolutely no chemistry with each other. So what did they give us in Ant-Man and the Wasp? A whole lot of interaction between Lang and his daughter, and a whole lot between Hope and her father, both of which were great.
  #55  
Old 08-15-2019, 01:42 PM
Nava is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Hey! I'm located! WOOOOW!
Posts: 42,260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
Surely, Spider-Man is at least as iconic as Captain America?
In most of the world, as iconic and had a better image pre-MCU, not being linked to America rah-rah-ism. Once upon a time, I was in a Barcelona Comic Book Week which had seen several special releases from Marvel's Spanish publisher (as usual), and these included a couple that Stan Lee was surprised weren't working (one of them wasn't even being bought by the biggest collectors, since we considered it directly and enormously offensive*); he was also surprised that Captain America didn't sell well at all (he was paired up with Thor, and people bought those books because of Simonson's Thor; Cap by himself couldn't have sold lollipops in front of a school). Watching the Spanish editors try to explain it in English with correct grammar rather than just pull their hair out in cussy Spanish was, ah, interesting. Lee finally got it but it took a while.

Note that the MCU's Cap is nowhere near as much of a political bore as the comic-book Cap was for decades.



* Wolverine in the Spanish Civil War. "Directly and enormously offensive" is an eufemism.
__________________
Evidence gathered through the use of science is easily dismissed through the use of idiocy. - Czarcasm.

Last edited by Nava; 08-15-2019 at 01:47 PM.
  #56  
Old 08-15-2019, 11:01 PM
digs's Avatar
digs is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: West of Wauwatosa
Posts: 9,807
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just Asking Questions View Post
The characters behave like real people would.
This made me nod, because it's exactly what I said to Bob Trole back in the early sixties. He was wondering aloud why I liked Spider-Man, "cuz he's just a kid, and he's got problems..."
"Exactly! Spider-Man is a real person with real problems!"

As life turned out, the same rationale also works for why, fifty years later, I prefer Marvel movies to DC movies. And Spidey's neuroses to Supe's flatter affect.

I gotta find Bob and tell him!

Last edited by digs; 08-15-2019 at 11:02 PM.
  #57  
Old 08-15-2019, 11:07 PM
Mahaloth is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: 地球
Posts: 29,702
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trancephalic View Post
Incorrect, Iron Man was not the first MCU film. That distinction belongs to the second Incredible Hulk film (and even then that particular film vaguely implies the first one sorta maybe counts).
No way, Iron Man came out first.
  #58  
Old 08-16-2019, 08:52 AM
Dale Sams is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,985
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nava View Post
In most of the world, as iconic and had a better image pre-MCU, not being linked to America rah-rah-ism. Once upon a time, I was in a Barcelona Comic Book Week which had seen several special releases from Marvel's Spanish publisher (as usual), and these included a couple that Stan Lee was surprised weren't working (one of them wasn't even being bought by the biggest collectors, since we considered it directly and enormously offensive*); he was also surprised that Captain America didn't sell well at all (he was paired up with Thor, and people bought those books because of Simonson's Thor; Cap by himself couldn't have sold lollipops in front of a school). Watching the Spanish editors try to explain it in English with correct grammar rather than just pull their hair out in cussy Spanish was, ah, interesting. Lee finally got it but it took a while.

Note that the MCU's Cap is nowhere near as much of a political bore as the comic-book Cap was for decades.



* Wolverine in the Spanish Civil War. "Directly and enormously offensive" is an eufemism.
Exactly. MCU Cap is my fave Avenger and set of movies. ...comic-books? I think I've bought ONE Cap comic in my life and that was a tie-in.
  #59  
Old 08-16-2019, 10:50 AM
planetcory is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 824
Quote:
Originally Posted by digs View Post
This made me nod, because it's exactly what I said to Bob Trole back in the early sixties. He was wondering aloud why I liked Spider-Man, "cuz he's just a kid, and he's got problems..."
"Exactly! Spider-Man is a real person with real problems!"

As life turned out, the same rationale also works for why, fifty years later, I prefer Marvel movies to DC movies.
See, I'd say the movies are the opposite. DC tried to go the 'realer' route and it didn't resonate. Marvel movie characters act like characters.
  #60  
Old 08-16-2019, 11:46 AM
Chronos's Avatar
Chronos is offline
Charter Member
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: The Land of Cleves
Posts: 84,492
DC thought they were going the "realer" route, but they picked and chose only the parts of reality that suck.
  #61  
Old 08-16-2019, 09:00 PM
dorvann is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 740
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
DC thought they were going the "realer" route, but they picked and chose only the parts of reality that suck.
I think DC thought since the grittier "realer" Batman movies with Christian Bale were so successful that they should make their other character's movies in similar manner. Except Superman really isn't a "dark" character to begin with so it doesn't really work that well.

I think this year's "Shazam" movie was the first movie DC made in while that captured more of the light hearted nature people think about when they here DC Comics but even it had undercurrent of darkness that was distracting.
  #62  
Old 08-16-2019, 09:02 PM
Miller's Avatar
Miller is online now
Sith Mod
Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Bear Flag Republic
Posts: 44,137
I'd say that DC's problem isn't that they're trying, and failing, to be more realistic; it's that they're trying, and failing, to be more adult. Sadist psycho killer Batman from BvS isn't more "realistic" than Adam West's take on the character, it's just a very juvenile conception of what sort of stories "grownups" like.
  #63  
Old 08-19-2019, 12:21 PM
Translucent Daydream is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Grand Valley
Posts: 1,756
My wife loves anything Marvel, including her favorite thing in the MCU, Agents of SHIELD (TV). Alternatively, she hates anything DC. She is 30.

It could be that the Marvel folks are better at making movies that appeal to women. She says that the DC stuff is too dark, and they hyper sexualize the women in them. The Joker's girlfriend was "like a MDMA-sadist-whore" - her words, not mine. She loves Agent May from SHIELD and Black Widow. Those characters resonate with her way more than Wonder Woman. She hated that one too. "God dammit why won't Kirk let her fight any? Isn't she supposed to be some sort of super hero?" - Her entertaining words, not mine. She is fun to watch movies with.
__________________
I promise itís not as bad or as good as you think it is.
  #64  
Old 08-19-2019, 12:41 PM
Chronos's Avatar
Chronos is offline
Charter Member
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: The Land of Cleves
Posts: 84,492
Eh, "Kirk" was a man of 1918, and Diana was the first superbeing his world had ever encountered. I'm willing to grant that it'd take him a while to get used to the idea, and really, he came around admirably quickly.

And while "MDMA-sadist-whore" might be an apt description of Harley Quin, I'm not sure how anyone could conclude that Black Widow was "not hyper sexualized".
  #65  
Old 08-19-2019, 01:56 PM
Translucent Daydream is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Grand Valley
Posts: 1,756
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
Eh, "Kirk" was a man of 1918, and Diana was the first superbeing his world had ever encountered. I'm willing to grant that it'd take him a while to get used to the idea, and really, he came around admirably quickly.

And while "MDMA-sadist-whore" might be an apt description of Harley Quin, I'm not sure how anyone could conclude that Black Widow was "not hyper sexualized".
See I would think the same, what is the difference? To her, they are blatantly different. Maybe its the application of the character. I see them sort of the same, but not really if I'm being honest. To my observation watching the movies, they (the super awesome super hero friends) treat Black Widow differently than Harley Quinn is treated by her contemporaries.

I am not a woman, so my opinion probably is way less interesting and informed than a woman's opinion on the topic. To my wife though, there is a stark (ha) difference.
__________________
I promise itís not as bad or as good as you think it is.
  #66  
Old 08-19-2019, 02:36 PM
msmith537 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 27,564
Quote:
Originally Posted by dorvann View Post
I think DC thought since the grittier "realer" Batman movies with Christian Bale were so successful that they should make their other character's movies in similar manner. Except Superman really isn't a "dark" character to begin with so it doesn't really work that well.
Comic book films seem like they have struggled with how "dark" and "grounded" vs how "fun" and "campy" they want to be. It's like zombies. One the one hand, the concept civilization collapsing due to the dead rising and killing everyone (turning them into more zombies) while bands of survivors fight each other for basic needs is terrifying. OTOH, it's also ridiculous.

Last edited by msmith537; 08-19-2019 at 02:37 PM.
  #67  
Old 08-19-2019, 03:43 PM
MrDibble's Avatar
MrDibble is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Cape Town, South Africa &
Posts: 25,903
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
I'm not sure how anyone could conclude that Black Widow was "not hyper sexualized".
Because she wasn't? She was shown as capable of using sexiness as a tool, but "hyper-sexualized"? Not at all.
  #68  
Old 08-19-2019, 04:04 PM
Chronos's Avatar
Chronos is offline
Charter Member
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: The Land of Cleves
Posts: 84,492
She didn't understand sexiness as anything other than a tool. And was she ever shown wearing anything less form-fitting than body paint?
  #69  
Old 08-19-2019, 07:19 PM
kenobi 65's Avatar
kenobi 65 is online now
Corellian Nerfherder
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Brookfield, IL
Posts: 15,206
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
She didn't understand sexiness as anything other than a tool. And was she ever shown wearing anything less form-fitting than body paint?
Black Widow? For most of the last half of Winter Soldier, when she and Cap were on the run, she wasn't in the bodysuit.

Examples:
http://images.fandango.com/images/fa...idowKiss3F.jpg
https://www.samishleather.com/wp-con...-3-450x600.jpg
  #70  
Old 08-19-2019, 08:39 PM
Chronos's Avatar
Chronos is offline
Charter Member
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: The Land of Cleves
Posts: 84,492
Ah, OK, I'd forgotten about those.
  #71  
Old 08-20-2019, 01:23 AM
MrDibble's Avatar
MrDibble is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Cape Town, South Africa &
Posts: 25,903
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
She didn't understand sexiness as anything other than a tool. And was she ever shown wearing anything less form-fitting than body paint?
The first half of Iron Man, she's in dresses. She's also in a dress in the interrogation scene at the start of Avengers. She's shown in business-style clothing at the Senate hearings, and again at the UN summit thing that got blowed up good in Civil War, There's the aforementioned street clothes in Winter Soldier.

She wears the form-fitting outfit when she's on the job - just like other Shield agents. Leaving aside whether that actually is a good outfit to wear for that job IRL, it's still not "hyper-sexual". Is Maria Hill also "hyper-sexualized" to you? What about Hawkeye - I mean, you can see his naked arms, the slut.

And all the women walking around in athlesiure clothing? Are they all "hyper-sexualized"

Suffice to say, I don't think this is "hyper-" anything. This is closer. Still nothing like the worst comics outfits though.

Last edited by MrDibble; 08-20-2019 at 01:25 AM.
  #72  
Old 08-20-2019, 01:28 AM
MrDibble's Avatar
MrDibble is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Cape Town, South Africa &
Posts: 25,903
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
She didn't understand sexiness as anything other than a tool.
Sorry, didn't address this - she is shown to be badly broken on that score, yes, because of her upbringing for one. But she displayed a reasonably characterized relationship with Banner given their respective major malfunctions. I was quite sorry that went nowhere before they fridged her.

Last edited by MrDibble; 08-20-2019 at 01:30 AM.
  #73  
Old 08-20-2019, 01:29 AM
MrDibble's Avatar
MrDibble is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Cape Town, South Africa &
Posts: 25,903
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrDibble View Post
She wears the form-fitting outfit when she's on the job - just like other Shield agents.
I mean "active, overt part of" the job, here.
  #74  
Old 08-20-2019, 03:06 AM
Horatio Hellpop is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Jeju-si, S. Korea
Posts: 9,632
Superhero movies, like science Fiction before Kubrick's 2001, had a tradition of looking down on the people who watched them. There was a real sense of "Don't worry if it makes no sense and looks like crap, these kids believe in magic rings and clay statues that come to life." This was truer of the Spider-Man TV show in the 70s than of the Incredible Hulk, and it was true of every Superman-related show prior to Smallville. While the first X-Men movie showed unprecedented respect for its source material, Raimi's Spider-Man and the first Iron Man combined respect with solid storytelling, and I really think they remain high water marks for the genre. The only DC movies I have really been impressed by are Wonder Woman and Burton's Batman.
  #75  
Old 08-20-2019, 09:31 AM
Sir T-Cups is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 8,700
Quote:
Originally Posted by Banquet Bear View Post
...so I think its fair to add Sarah Finn, Casting Director who cast almost every actor in the MCU to the list of things that have made these movies such a success.
This isn't the "correct" answer, but it's most definitely in the top 3.

I was listening to a podcast one time and they said (and I'm paraphrasing) "Can we just take a second and think about just how good of actors the MCU leads are?" They were referencing Chris Evans directly, but they eventually went on to say that half these movies wouldn't work as well as they have if the actors in them weren't genuinely good actors.
__________________
Want to see more of my adventures in Orlando? Follow Mrs. Cups and me @theorlandoduo on Instagram. And check out our blog too: TheOrlandoDuo.com
  #76  
Old 08-20-2019, 04:05 PM
Chronos's Avatar
Chronos is offline
Charter Member
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: The Land of Cleves
Posts: 84,492
True, it's easy to get good actors when you're casting from the A-list. And some of the people in the Marvel movies were (even before their Marvel appearances). But a lot of them weren't, and they were still good actors (at least, for the roles they were picked for). Yup, that sure looks like the mark of a skilled casting director to me.
  #77  
Old 08-21-2019, 01:08 AM
Dale Sams is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,985
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrDibble View Post
Sorry, didn't address this - she is shown to be badly broken on that score, yes, because of her upbringing for one. But she displayed a reasonably characterized relationship with Banner given their respective major malfunctions. I was quite sorry that went nowhere before they fridged her.
Verily the quibble calls to me and I have come to share it with thee:

Widow is not a fridging*. Who does it serve? A teeny bit of angst for Hawkeye? Hulk throws some furniture, Cap squeezes out a few tears and thats it. Iron Man is a lot closer as it serves the last Spider-Man movie. GAMORA is a stronger case for it being a fridge cause it drove Quills character and will probably be a strong point of the next Guardians movie

Just because you're a female and you get killed doesn't make it a fridging. And for posteritys sake lets remember that Steve Trevor and Larry Lance were the first fridgings in comics.

*If Widows solo movie is a stealth Hawkeye movie, then I 'm wrong.
  #78  
Old 08-22-2019, 03:10 AM
MrDibble's Avatar
MrDibble is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Cape Town, South Africa &
Posts: 25,903
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale Sams View Post
Verily the quibble calls to me and I have come to share it with thee:

Widow is not a fridging*. Who does it serve?
Dealt with it here - Hawkeye, is the answer. Hawkeye gets to have the family, the redemption from being Ronin, all the stuff. It's not about him having angst, it's that her death serves his story, not her own.

It helps if you have the context like one of the writers thinking she was "just a cipher the whole time"

Last edited by MrDibble; 08-22-2019 at 03:13 AM.
  #79  
Old 08-22-2019, 03:42 AM
MrDibble's Avatar
MrDibble is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Cape Town, South Africa &
Posts: 25,903
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale Sams View Post
And for posteritys sake lets remember that Steve Trevor and Larry Lance were the first fridgings in comics.
Sorry, missed this - No. Better yet: Hell, no!
  #80  
Old 08-22-2019, 07:06 AM
Dale Sams is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,985
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrDibble View Post
Sorry, missed this - No. Better yet: Hell, no!
Just 'no'?

Ahhh..."Hell no." Well.

You have an earlier example?

Bucky? Uncle Ben?

Last edited by Dale Sams; 08-22-2019 at 07:06 AM.
  #81  
Old 08-22-2019, 07:17 AM
The Other Waldo Pepper is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 16,623
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale Sams View Post
Just 'no'?

Ahhh..."Hell no." Well.

You have an earlier example?

Bucky? Uncle Ben?
Harry Kane?
  #82  
Old 08-22-2019, 10:50 AM
DrDeth is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: San Jose
Posts: 41,579
Quote:
Originally Posted by enalzi View Post
I think a better question is, why did the execs back in the day figure out that superhero movies could be wildly successful? Superman (1978) was a huge hit, but no one thought to follow it up with a Batman or Wonder Woman movie. Instead they just kept making more Superman movies, each one doing worse than the one before it. Same thing with Batman (1989). Huge hit, but they didn't bother to make a non-Batman movie until 1997 (Steel).
Yes, we forget the father of them all, 1978 Superman, which had a great cast, great writing (juuuust enough humor) and no CGI.

And DC is hampered by the fact that they hired a guy who hates superheros to be the showrunner.

Note that Shazam! did very well indeed, and didnt have Zack anywhere near it. It's clear- the less Zack, the bigger the success.
  #83  
Old 08-22-2019, 10:54 AM
kenobi 65's Avatar
kenobi 65 is online now
Corellian Nerfherder
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Brookfield, IL
Posts: 15,206
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
Note that Shazam! did very well indeed, and didnt have Zack anywhere near it. It's clear- the less Zack, the bigger the success.
I was reading a discussion recently (not here) in which people were lamenting DC's inability to make what they considered to be a worthy Superman film in recent years. Someone replied, "Hey, DC has made two really good Superman films in the past few years -- it's just that they were Wonder Woman and Shazam!"
  #84  
Old 08-22-2019, 10:56 AM
MrDibble's Avatar
MrDibble is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Cape Town, South Africa &
Posts: 25,903
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale Sams View Post
You have an earlier example?

Bucky? Uncle Ben?
No, and no. And you know exactly why. But by all means, play your little game...
  #85  
Old 08-22-2019, 10:58 AM
DrDeth is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: San Jose
Posts: 41,579
Quote:
Originally Posted by dorvann View Post
I think DC thought since the grittier "realer" Batman movies with Christian Bale were so successful that they should make their other character's movies in similar manner. Except Superman really isn't a "dark" character to begin with so it doesn't really work that well.

I think this year's "Shazam" movie was the first movie DC made in while that captured more of the light hearted nature people think about when they here DC Comics but even it had undercurrent of darkness that was distracting.
Wonderwoman and Aquaman were very good also. The less Zack, the better film.
  #86  
Old 08-22-2019, 01:54 PM
Dale Sams is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,985
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrDibble View Post
No, and no. And you know exactly why. But by all means, play your little game...
"You know why"

Oh, we're in 2cnd grade now? No i don't know why Becky.
  #87  
Old 08-22-2019, 03:55 PM
MrDibble's Avatar
MrDibble is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Cape Town, South Africa &
Posts: 25,903
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale Sams View Post
"You know why"

Oh, we're in 2cnd grade now? No i don't know why Becky.
Sure. That's why you've only suggested men. Completely innocently.
  #88  
Old 08-22-2019, 04:17 PM
Dale Sams is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,985
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrDibble View Post
Sure. That's why you've only suggested men. Completely innocently.
If you can think of some female ones you're welcome to use them to refute what I said "Steve Trevor and Larry Lance were the first fridgings in comics"

I didn't bring gender into this. You did.

Far as I know, Gwen Stacy is the first major female fridging. It was around the same time as Larry , but after Steve.

Given your reluctance to move past grade school arguments, I suspect you're simply deficient in comic book history.
  #89  
Old 08-22-2019, 04:30 PM
Dale Sams is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,985
Course ...Gwens own father got fridges before she did.
  #90  
Old 08-22-2019, 04:54 PM
Trancephalic's Avatar
Trancephalic is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 910
The best DC movie has always been Batman: Mask of the Phantasm. It's ostensibly just a feature-length BTAS episode with some terribly dated CGI, but it's a standalone tale and excellently told. It even had a bonafide theatrical release.

Frankly, it was my personal fave until Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse finally knocked it of its lofty perch.

Superheroes work so much better as animation.
  #91  
Old 08-22-2019, 06:05 PM
Miller's Avatar
Miller is online now
Sith Mod
Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Bear Flag Republic
Posts: 44,137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale Sams View Post
I didn't bring gender into this. You did.
You can't really discuss the concept of "fridging" a character without bringing gender into it. The term is gender-specific. It doesn't mean, "Killing off a character to provide motivation for another character," it means "The tendency in superhero comics to kill off female characters to motivate the male hero."
  #92  
Old 08-22-2019, 06:24 PM
Dale Sams is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,985
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller View Post
You can't really discuss the concept of "fridging" a character without bringing gender into it. The term is gender-specific. It doesn't mean, "Killing off a character to provide motivation for another character," it means "The tendency in superhero comics to kill off female characters to motivate the male hero."
I disagree. The originator is called "Women in fridges". Gail felt the need to specify.

But I'll drop it or give it its own thread when I get home
  #93  
Old 08-22-2019, 07:14 PM
Chronos's Avatar
Chronos is offline
Charter Member
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: The Land of Cleves
Posts: 84,492
You disagree by posting evidence for what you're disagreeing with?
  #94  
Old 08-22-2019, 07:32 PM
Dale Sams is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,985
The originating article is called "women in fridges" Not "Fridging and here's what it means"

The emphasis is on the hackneyed trope of using a secondary character to drive a (usually male) characters story. But it certainly doesn't mean "men can't be fridged"
  #95  
Old 08-22-2019, 08:47 PM
Miller's Avatar
Miller is online now
Sith Mod
Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Bear Flag Republic
Posts: 44,137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale Sams View Post
The originating article is called "women in fridges" Not "Fridging and here's what it means"

The emphasis is on the hackneyed trope of using a secondary character to drive a (usually male) characters story. But it certainly doesn't mean "men can't be fridged"
The article was called "women in refrigerators" to highlight a problem with how comic books used female characters. "Fridge" is shorthand to refer to that concept. Men can't be fridged, because there isn't a problem with comic books using male character chiefly to motivate female heroes.
  #96  
Old 08-22-2019, 10:21 PM
Dale Sams is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,985
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller View Post
The article was called "women in refrigerators" to highlight a problem with how comic books used female characters. "Fridge" is shorthand to refer to that concept. Men can't be fridged, because there isn't a problem with comic books using male character chiefly to motivate female heroes.
Go to 4:32
  #97  
Old 08-22-2019, 11:07 PM
FlikTheBlue is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,717
IMHO it’s all about the characters are treated. They do all seem human and the way they are portrayed makes us care for them. We got to know all the characters over multiple movies and see their development while not dealing with them being randomly killed off just because some director thought it was time to kill a major character just to change things up. Overall the movies seemed to keep the same mood as well, not overly lighthearted or campy, but also not overly dark just for the sake of trying to be “edgy.” When I compare the MCU to the DCEU and the current Star Wars trilogy (which I think is a fair comparison) I think that’s what makes MCU successful and the other two not as much, at least in my book. Civil War, for example, didn’t leave me feeling dark and hopeless the way that Batman vs. Superman did. And the deaths of Ironman and Black Widow (as well as the way Captain America survived) were much more fitting than the way that DCEU (seemingly) killed off Superman or how the current Star Wars trilogy killed off Luke. MCU just does these things better.

Last edited by FlikTheBlue; 08-22-2019 at 11:08 PM.
  #98  
Old 08-23-2019, 08:44 AM
MrDibble's Avatar
MrDibble is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Cape Town, South Africa &
Posts: 25,903
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale Sams View Post
I didn't bring gender into this. You did.
Sure, buddy. No agenda here, got it
Quote:
Given your reluctance to move past grade school arguments, I suspect you're simply deficient in comic book history.
No, what I am is aware of what fridging actually means:
the superhero comic-book trope whereby female characters are injured, raped, killed, or depowered (an event colloquially known as fridging)
  #99  
Old 08-23-2019, 09:11 AM
silenus's Avatar
silenus is online now
Isaiah 1:15/Screw the NRA
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: SoCal
Posts: 51,398
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
Wonderwoman and Aquaman were very good also. The less Zack, the better film.
Why DC let him anywhere near their properties is beyond me. The man is totally incompetent and anybody with eyes can see it.
  #100  
Old 08-23-2019, 01:19 PM
Dale Sams is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,985
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrDibble View Post
Sure, buddy. No agenda here, got it

No, what I am is aware of what fridging actually means:
the superhero comic-book trope whereby female characters are injured, raped, killed, or depowered (an event colloquially known as fridging)
Since we're using dubious internet sources

Quote:
It should be noted that while the term most commonly applies to a male character's female love interest, it can actually be used in numerous different scenarios of both sexes and different relations from romantic, platonic and familial. The core part is that one character is killed (or at least, has something very bad happen to them) for the sake of causing emotional trauma for the target, with said victim often acting as a plot device more than a real character in the worst-case scenarios. As such, the trope is not Always Female as some would think, despite the sexist ramifications, but rather can apply to just about anyone.
When you're ready to discuss this like an adult and ditch the emojis. Let me know.
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:35 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright © 2018 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017