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  #301  
Old 12-08-2018, 07:24 PM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is online now
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Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
... So, you do feel that Zimmerman may have made some mistakes that night? ...
Of course, but I'd really like for you to account for you misrepresentation of my position. You wrote "I don't know why you insist that Zimmerman must have done everything absolutely correctly in this instance". Where the hell did you get this idea from? Why did you misattribute it to me? These aren't just idle questions. I'd really like you to answer them.

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Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
... I also see no reason why Zimmerman would not have brandished his weapon in the encounter. ...
Which is, of course, NOT evidence that he actually did brandish his weapon. You're just sharing your biases with us.

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Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
... I thought we were talking about the crime that Martin had committed that justified Zimmerman's initiating a confrontation, but you are choosing to fast forward to the time when Martin has gotten the upper hand in the confrontation that Zimmerman initiated in order to avoid the problem that, if you actually consider it, Martin was doing nothing wrong at the time that Zimmerman initiated a confrontation. ...
You asked "What crime, specifically, was Martin committing which gave justification to a self-defense shooting?" I gave you the answer. We don't have any evidence that either Zimmerman or Martin had committed anything that would be a crime that night until Martin punched Zimmerman in the face and climbed on top of him and bashed his head on the concrete.
  #302  
Old 12-09-2018, 02:30 AM
Steophan Steophan is online now
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Originally Posted by you with the face View Post
Oh yeah, and also have this person repeatedly slam your head too. Forgot to throw that in, silly me.
Yeah, that would stop me from screaming

Occam's razor suggests that the person screaming is the person with the vroken nose and injuries to the back of his head.
  #303  
Old 12-09-2018, 05:48 AM
you with the face you with the face is online now
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Originally Posted by Steophan View Post
Yeah, that would stop me from screaming

Occam's razor suggests that the person screaming is the person with the vroken nose and injuries to the back of his head.
Occasionally razor says a man with a gun doesn’t need to scream for help because he has a damn gun. An unarmed kid having a fight or flight reaction would scream and cause defensive wounds.
  #304  
Old 12-09-2018, 07:22 AM
Steophan Steophan is online now
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Originally Posted by you with the face View Post
Occasionally razor says a man with a gun doesn’t need to scream for help because he has a damn gun. An unarmed kid having a fight or flight reaction would scream and cause defensive wounds.
He was defensively bashinf Martin's head against the ground, after defensively returning to Zimmerman from a safe place and defensively punching him in the face?

There's an obvious reason that Zimmerman was screaming, which is that he didn't actually want to have to shoot Martin, but had (or felt he had) no other choice. There's no obvious reason for Martin to be screaming, as there's no reason to think he was threatened or attacked. It's pretty clear that he attacked Zimmerman without provocation, and there's a couple of plausible reasons why that would be. I genuinely don't know why it's so hard to accept that, or why people are so determined to paint Zimmerman as a murderer in defiance of the evidence.
  #305  
Old 12-09-2018, 09:42 AM
you with the face you with the face is online now
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Originally Posted by Steophan View Post
There's an obvious reason that Zimmerman was screaming, which is that he didn't actually want to have to shoot Martin, but had (or felt he had) no other choice. There's no obvious reason for Martin to be screaming, as there's no reason to think he was threatened or attacked.
Like I said before, debating this is like arguing with a diehard Trump supporter.

Sigh.
  #306  
Old 12-09-2018, 10:23 AM
postpic200 postpic200 is offline
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Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
“Do you really think that is what the 911 operator meant there. "Oh, no don't worry about it, you don't need to go out of your way to help us out." Or do you think she meant, "We don't need (nor want) you to do that."

Since when has law enforcement been fairly cavalier about civilians taking on law enforcement activity?”

Didn’t ever think I’d have to explain what an order meant, but here we go. An order is a command to do or not do something. Ex. “Don’t pick up that trash.” Is an order, a command to do or not do something. If they said “We really don’t need you to pick up that trash.” That is a suggestion, while they might not want you to pick up the trash, you are free to do so. If the 911 operator meant to say “Do not follow him. “ the operator would have said so.


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And that is fine. You see someone suspicious, you call the police. Too bad Martin did not have a gun, as it has been determined on these boards that having a gun puts you above suspicion, and that you may not have the police called on you for that.

Being black, though, that's a whole different matter.
How was Zimmerman above suspicion? He was arrested, investigated, the results of that investigation were turned over to the state’s attorney. The justice department investigated, a case was brought before a grand jury, he was charged with second-degree murder. So tell me how he was above suspicion?

Nice way to put race into this, Zimmerman knew his neighborhood and saw someone he didn’t know, who in his eyes looked suspicious, give there had been break-ins it would be reasonable for him to call the police.


Quote:
And his statement doesn't match up to the timeline, nor the witnesses, nor the location of the altercation, but everything else he says we should believe.
Never said that, notice I said “..Zimmerman stated he was going back to his car and that Trayvon approached and attacked him.” We only have his version of what happened, he stated he had lost track of Martin, and may have been going back to his car, we DON’T KNOW.


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You should have seen the other guy!
And the point of that was? Zimmerman did sustain injures consistence with a fight. That’s evidence of a struggle.


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He did run away from the suspicious man who was following him in the dark.
And went back to confront him, if he really felt he was in danger why confront him?

[/QUOTE]"If you believe Zimmerman". Zimmerman's story doesn't line up with the evidence we have, so believing him is not necessarily my first instinct. Maybe he was confused, and is is not intentional lying, but the story he gave does not line up.[/QUOTE]

We know there was a confrontation, we know there was a fight, did Zimmerman chase Martin down, from the evidence I doubt it. He had been following Martin, in contact with the police, telling them where he was, why would he suddenly go up to Martin to confront him?

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Yeah, because black teenagers have a great history with the police. The police is not your friend, you know. The police are as likely to show up and shoot him.
So just take the law into your own hands then? Maybe that's what Martin did.

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Including the scared kid who is being followed in the dark by a suspicious stranger.
Which is why he should have called the police. BTW I don’t consider a 17 year old a kid.


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Did you ever follow a black teenager back behind houses in the dark while armed?
Nope, given the number of blacks in my neck of the woods the odds of me following any black person is very small.

I have searched my backyard, armed. I have confronted drunks in my house whether he was breaking in or just confused who know, but my wife was getting my gun while I was on the phone to the police. He ran away and no I didn’t chase him.
  #307  
Old 12-09-2018, 11:00 AM
LAZombie LAZombie is offline
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"He said he once text messaged Zimmerman with praises for a group of workers who followed a burglar. Their actions led to the arrest of a young black man, who was charged with burglaries in the neighborhood, O'Brien said.

O'Brien added that police indicated it was acceptable to follow suspicious persons at a safe distance. He also said he signed an agreement with police to increase patrol of the area and to tow illegally parked cars." My bold. It appears to me the concept that a young black man committing burglaries was planted in Zimmerman's mind not that he was a racist.

"She added that she believe Zimmerman was a professional person who wanted to make a change in his community, which had been targeted by burglars. Dorival said she tried to recruit Zimmerman to a citizens patrol program, but that he didn't want to participate."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...watch/2455163/
  #308  
Old 12-09-2018, 11:13 AM
doorhinge doorhinge is offline
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Originally Posted by you with the face View Post
Occasionally razor says a man with a gun doesn’t need to scream for help because he has a damn gun. An unarmed kid having a fight or flight reaction would scream and cause defensive wounds.
Someone without a phone would certainly call for help and/or ask someone to notify the police. Regardless of whether or not they have a gun, or knife, or club.
  #309  
Old 12-09-2018, 11:23 AM
doorhinge doorhinge is offline
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Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
Maybe you are right, you do seem to just be "asking questions" and making assertions, not actually taking a position. That completely eliminates any possibility of a productive conversation.
(post shortened)

Are you attempting to have a friendly discussion on the internet by asking questions and making assertions, or are you looking for hardline positions you can argue against?
  #310  
Old 12-09-2018, 11:26 AM
Steophan Steophan is online now
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Originally Posted by you with the face View Post
Like I said before, debating this is like arguing with a diehard Trump supporter.

Sigh.
You've shown no interest in debating this, only in trying to reinforce your preconcieved ideas.

Look, Zimmerman did not call the police then intentionally go out of his way to kill Martin while they were on the way. That makes no sense, no one who looked at this case objectively would think that. To believe Zimmerman was out to get Martin, or that he initiated the threats and violence, shows either an ignorance of the facts as revealed at the trial, or a failure to think logically about it.
  #311  
Old 12-09-2018, 11:30 AM
Steophan Steophan is online now
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Originally Posted by postpic200 View Post
We only have his version of what happened, he stated he had lost track of Martin, and may have been going back to his car, we DON’T KNOW.
We have more than that, we have the girl Martin was on the phone to at that time saying that Martin had lost sight of Zimmerman, and was right by his father's home. There's no reason to believe that both of them were lying.
  #312  
Old 12-09-2018, 11:32 AM
doorhinge doorhinge is offline
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Originally Posted by Acsenray View Post
Zimmerman’s story is not credible. Zimmerman is not credible. Anyone saying then believe him at this point is pretending to make it easy for him—and by extension, themselves—to be able to murder black men and children with impunity. That’s what it all comes down to.
Everybody is entitled to their own opinion. Based on the evidence presented to the court, and not the stories/rumors/spin/biases of the news media outlets leading up to the trial, the jury doesn't seem to have agreed with your opinion.
  #313  
Old 12-09-2018, 11:54 AM
doorhinge doorhinge is offline
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Originally Posted by you with the face View Post
Do me a favor and ask someone to sit on top of you with their hands over your mouth and nose. Now try to belt out a scream loud and sustained like that which was recorded in that phone call I linked to.

You will not be able to do it. If someone is struggling to breathe as Zimmerman claimed, they are incapable of screaming.
(post shortened)

How would you bash someone's head on the ground while simultaneously covering their mouth? I wonder how many hands someone would need in order to accomplish such a feat?
  #314  
Old 12-09-2018, 11:55 AM
Babale Babale is offline
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Originally Posted by Steophan View Post
He was defensively bashinf Martin's head against the ground, after defensively returning to Zimmerman from a safe place and defensively punching him in the face?.
No, because that didn't happen and the evidence doesn't show it.
  #315  
Old 12-09-2018, 11:59 AM
Babale Babale is offline
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Originally Posted by doorhinge View Post
(post shortened)

How would you bash someone's head on the ground while simultaneously covering their mouth? I wonder how many hands someone would need in order to accomplish such a feat?
You're right. Yet another hole in Zimmerman's story.
  #316  
Old 12-09-2018, 12:12 PM
you with the face you with the face is online now
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Originally Posted by Steophan View Post
You've shown no interest in debating this, only in trying to reinforce your preconcieved ideas.

Look, Zimmerman did not call the police then intentionally go out of his way to kill Martin while they were on the way. That makes no sense...
Good thing no one has argued this.

I think it’s infinitely more plausible that Zimmerman’s desire to be a badass action hero sent him chasing after a kid that he incorrectly pegged as a criminal. His impulsiveness and poor judgement caused him to initiate a physical confrontation once their paths crossed, and Martin became afraid for life once he realized Zimmerman intended to keep him from getting home.

Zimmerman, being the idiot that he was, was trying to hold the kid there until the cops came. Martin, not being a mind reader, only knew that a menacing looking tub of guts was trying to kidnap him. He screamed for the neighbors to help him because...why wouldn’t he? He was unarmed, alone, and had been pursued unrelentingly in the dark by a stranger who refused to explain his actions towards him. When he realized help was not coming, he did what any frightened person would do in that situation. He struck out in defense. And yes, that meant Zimmerman got scratched up. It does not mean that Martin was the aggressor. When he realized he was unable to control the kid, Zimmerman did what most impulsively violent people with guns do. He shot Martin.

To believe Zimmerman was the victim, we have to believe Martin—whose only stated agenda, according to witnesses, was to get home after a trip to the store—suddenly flipped out for not reason and went on a violent punching, smothering, head-pummeling frenzy from hell. We also have to believe that Zimmerman conducted himself in such a way so as not to make the kid in fear for his life, despite evidence that he chased after him for a length of time, never explained his actions (by his own damn account), and carried a gun into a conflict with an unarmed person. We also have to try to make his testimony fit the physical evidence, and very little of it does. The screaming, the location of the scuffle, the timeline...most of it does not gel with what Zimmerman claimed.

But me spelling all this out is futile. If you still think Zimmerman is worthy of your defense, despite his history and despite his multiple encounters with trouble since the verdict, then it’s obvious nothing is going to change your mind.
  #317  
Old 12-09-2018, 12:17 PM
doorhinge doorhinge is offline
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Originally Posted by eschereal View Post
You accuse others of assuming facts not in evidence. Martin was shot about 200' from his door, which does not suggest that he went back to confront Zimmerman. His girlfriend's testimony about the conversation is unreliable, so to say that he went back is an unfounded assumption. If I was being followed at night, there is a fair chance that I would pause before approaching my door, to determine where my stalker was.

Then, why did he not hie into the safe place? What he knew about his stalker and his stalker's intentions is unclear. The bird's nest instinct does exist in humans to some extent: if I perceive a potential threat, leading that threat right to where I live is often not the best choice – a choice that one must make in the moment.

So claiming that Martin backtracked is not only an unfounded assumption, if it were true, it would be entirely understandable.
It's not an UNFOUNDED assumption. It's evidence which was presented to the court. If you chose to ignore that evidence, that's your choice, but you can't claim it's UNFOUNDED.
  #318  
Old 12-09-2018, 12:24 PM
doorhinge doorhinge is offline
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Originally Posted by Babale View Post
You're right. Yet another hole in Zimmerman's story.
No. Bashing someone's head on the ground, AND covering that someone's mouth during an extended struggle is possible. It would difficult to do both simultaneously.
  #319  
Old 12-09-2018, 12:35 PM
Steophan Steophan is online now
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Originally Posted by you with the face View Post
I think it’s infinitely more plausible that Zimmerman’s desire to be a badass action hero sent him chasing after a kid that he incorrectly pegged as a criminal. His impulsiveness and poor judgement caused him to initiate a physical confrontation once their paths crossed, and Martin became afraid for life once he realized Zimmerman intended to keep him from getting home.
You are factually wrong that Zimmerman chased Martin, or that he in any way prevented him from going to his father's home. These are not facts that are in doubt, and yet you ignore them, so your whole argument is invalid.

Your belief in your scenario requires you to believe some things that are known to be false, and also many things for which there are no evidence. Just to pick one thing you claimed, what is your evidence that Martin was "pursued unrelentingly" by Zimmerman? It's counter to the evidence given by both Zimmerman and Deedee, as well as what Zimmerman said whilst he was on the phone to the police.

That's ignoring the fact that following someone and asking them what they are doing is not, in fact, a threat - even if you fail or refuse to say why you are doing it.

You are ignorant of the basic facts of this case, or are chosing not to take them into account in your fantasies. Because, for some reason, you find it hard to believe that a 17 year old petty criminal could possibly have attacked someone.
  #320  
Old 12-09-2018, 12:39 PM
doorhinge doorhinge is offline
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Originally Posted by Isamu View Post
I didn't miss the point. The point is it all played out how Zimmerman had planned it. He was the instigator of the shooting, by having the gun, by not following police instructions, by being a vigilante. What is unknown is how much he racially baited Martin but you would be a fool to believe there was no racial element to the whole event. I understand you view it differently, and I can see that point of view. Legally you can carry a gun and ask questions and defend yourself. But I see it as Zimmerman being the instigator of a murder over nothing.
(Underline added)

Except for the fact that Zimmerman was not given instructions by any police officer, and court testimony shows that it was Martin who chose to referred to the person following him (Zimmerman) by racial epitaphs. Zimmerman did mentioned Martin's race AFTER being asked to do so by the dispatcher (aka not police officer).
  #321  
Old 12-09-2018, 12:48 PM
you with the face you with the face is online now
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You are factually wrong that Zimmerman chased Martin, or that he in any way prevented him from going to his father's home. These are not facts that are in doubt, and yet you ignore them, so your whole argument is invalid.
Read the goddamn affidavit against Zimmerman. Him chasing after Martin factored into probable cause.

Quote:
Your belief in your scenario requires you to believe some things that are known to be false, and also many things for which there are no evidence. Just to pick one thing you claimed, what is your evidence that Martin was "pursued unrelentingly" by Zimmerman? It's counter to the evidence given by both Zimmerman and Deedee, as well as what Zimmerman said whilst he was on the phone to the police.
Read the goddamn affidavit.

Quote:
That's ignoring the fact that following someone and asking them what they are doing is not, in fact, a threat - even if you fail or refuse to say why you are doing it.
Why am I not surprised that this sounds like the narcissist prayer that Trump and his worshipers follow?

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You are ignorant of the basic facts of this case...
Read the goddamn affidavit already.
  #322  
Old 12-09-2018, 04:16 PM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is online now
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Here is a better link for the affidavit. It's got a fair bit of editorializing in it, which is exactly what you'd expect from a document made to argue the prosecutor's side of the case.
  #323  
Old 12-09-2018, 05:20 PM
Steophan Steophan is online now
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Originally Posted by you with the face View Post
Read the goddamn affidavit.
You mean the one that was disproven at the trial? Fine, I can read it, but I'm not sure what you expect me to learn.

You did either watch the trial or read transcripts of it, right?
  #324  
Old 12-09-2018, 05:36 PM
Shodan Shodan is offline
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Originally Posted by you with the face View Post
I didn’t say that. I said Zimmerman claimed Martin was suffocating him at the same time the screaming occurred.
And your cite shows that this is false - Zimmerman did not claim that Martin was suffocating him at the same time that he was screaming.
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In case it’s not clear to you, I think Zimmerman was bald-faced lying.
Yes, I know that is what you think. But what you allege that Zimmerman said is other than what he said, so you think Zimmerman is lying because you think he said something he didn't say.
Quote:
It was the kid who was screaming his head off, just as you would expect someone to do if they’d been grabbed and possibly held at gunpoint by a hostile stranger.
But the balance of the evidence indicates that it was Zimmerman who was screaming, just as you would expect someone to do when they have been attacked, and are having their head bashed on the ground.

I think we have already established that it is not reasonable to think that Zimmerman was holding Martin at gunpoint, so that part is probably not true. And most people who are bashing someone else's head on the ground do not typically scream for help. So what you think is not backed up by any evidence.

Regards,
Shodan
  #325  
Old 12-10-2018, 12:11 AM
DragonAsh DragonAsh is offline
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Originally Posted by LAZombie View Post
You've clearly never been in a real world fist fight. Go visit http://www.worldstarhiphop.com/videos/ to see how a fight really transpires.
I've been in a few, and I've seen a few. I have yet to see anyone intent on trying to suckerpunch someone from behind start pit bu first asking the intended victim a question.
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  #326  
Old 12-10-2018, 12:40 AM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is online now
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Originally Posted by DragonAsh View Post
I've been in a few, and I've seen a few. I have yet to see anyone intent on trying to suckerpunch someone from behind start pit bu first asking the intended victim a question.
What made you think the first punch came "from behind" or was ever intended to? Zimmerman's statement to the police said "the suspect punched me in the face". He had injuries consistent with this claim too.
  #327  
Old 12-10-2018, 09:45 AM
you with the face you with the face is online now
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Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
And your cite shows that this is false - Zimmerman did not claim that Martin was suffocating him at the same time that he was screaming.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steophan
You mean the one that was disproven at the trial?
The above statements underscore the degree to which Zimmerman supporters must mire themselves in willful obtuseness to go on believing this guy was a victim.

I swear Zimmerman could confess on live TV to killing Martin in cold blood and they will still insist this kid deserved what happened to him.

This is America.

Last edited by you with the face; 12-10-2018 at 09:46 AM.
  #328  
Old 12-10-2018, 09:57 AM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is online now
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Yes, our obsession with the facts, rather than mimicking your emotional response, is truly damning. Woe is us.

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 12-10-2018 at 09:58 AM.
  #329  
Old 12-10-2018, 10:31 AM
Shodan Shodan is offline
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Originally Posted by you with the face View Post
Read the goddamn affidavit already.
You mean the affidavit that says it does not contain all the pertinent facts and evidence in the case?

Regards,
Shodan
  #330  
Old 12-10-2018, 10:55 AM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is online now
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Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
You mean the affidavit that says it does not contain all the pertinent facts and evidence in the case?

Regards,
Shodan
Yup, and if you're not convinced by that, you should just listen to the prosecutor's opening statement at trial. It's positively damning.

  #331  
Old 12-10-2018, 11:55 AM
Steophan Steophan is online now
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Originally Posted by you with the face View Post
I swear Zimmerman could confess on live TV to killing Martin in cold blood and they will still insist this kid deserved what happened to him.
If something completely different to what actually happened, happened, the I would adjust my views accordingly. Please look at what you're actually saying in your posts, they are all full of "what if's".

If a series of events for which we had no evidence occurred, then I might consider Zimmerman guilty. But for now, I will continue to believe that what happened is what the evidence shows, not what might have happened if your fantasies were true.
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