Straight Dope Message Board

[BOOM!]

Originally Posted by Steophan

Protests have started about the police shooting a guy that was pointing a gun at them? Fucking morons.

Is it independently established a gun was being "pointed" or is it the usual situation of police siezing and defining media perspectives (with the reality to follow some time later)? 551

[Steophan]

It doesn't need to be independently established. Unless there's any evidence that they're lying, there's no reason not to take them at their word.

This has nothing to do with them being cops, by the way, the same applies to any action in self defence - you believe the victim. The victim, of course, being the person who was made to use lethal force in self defence by the threatening actions of another - in this case, the police officer.

Unless you have any evidence that says otherwise. 552

[Der Trihs]

Originally Posted by Steophan

It doesn't need to be independently established. Unless there's any evidence that they're lying, there's no reason not to take them at their word.

They have a history of lying, and of racist violence. That's plenty of reason to doubt their word; they've demonstrated that their word isn't worth anything. 553

[Steophan]

Originally Posted by Der Trihs

They have a history of lying, and of racist violence. That's plenty of reason to doubt their word; they've demonstrated that their word isn't worth anything.

OK, doubt them. So what? Still no reason to think it wasn't self defence. 554

[BOOM!]

Originally Posted by Steophan

It doesn't need to be independently established. Unless there's any evidence that they're lying, there's no reason not to take them at their word.

It does need independence because on the one hand you have a grieving family, or nothing at all - On the other hand you have a beautifully oiled media machine that instantly leaps into 'damage limitation' mode whatever the actual circumstances.

The latter immediately siezes the media landscape, informs the public and the cast is set. Zero independence, total manipulation.

As you ably demonstrate. 555

[John Mace]

If you're going to violently protest, it is incumbent on you to make sure you are protesting actual injustice. 556

[Sicks Ate]

There's video available that supposedly shows the circumstances of the shooting. Damned if I can make anything out, though. 557

[Sicks Ate]

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/l...s-live-updates 558

[Snowboarder Bo]

Originally Posted by Fear Itself

Fox affiliated news program falsely reports protestors chanted "kill a cop" http://gawker.com/slimy-baltimore-fo...ium=socialflow

And now they've "apologized" for their "honest misunderstanding".

Baltimore Fox affiliate WBFF apologized today for a deceptive edit on a protest video that made it sound like police protesters were chanting “kill a cop” when they were actually changing “’til killer cops are in cell blocks.”

In a note on their website, they say they made an error:

We here at Fox45 work hard every day to earn your trust and bring you fair and comprehensive news from around the country. Although last night’s report reflected an honest misunderstanding of what the protesters were saying, we apologize for the error.

WBFF apologized and pulled the story after being contacted by Tawanda Jones, whose brother Tyrone West was killed by Baltimore City Police last year. WBFF spoke with her and even conducted an interview with her. When her interviewer said they “mistakenly reported” what she said, she asked, “How could that be a mistake?”

I hope she sues them for slander, defamation, etc. 559

[Velocity]

Originally Posted by Der Trihs

They have a history of lying, and of racist violence. That's plenty of reason to doubt their word; they've demonstrated that their word isn't worth anything.

Are you having a "Karl Rove 2012" type of moment? No disrespect.


It's only a matter of time before you'll have to acknowledge that the shot person pointed a gun at the cops. 560

[Smapti]

Originally Posted by Velocity

It's only a matter of time before you'll have to acknowledge that the shot person pointed a gun at the cops.

Well, even if he did point a gun at the cops, it's probably the cops' fault for hassling him over a minor crime. I mean, we don't kill people for robbing gas stations in America, right? Look at how militarized and aggressive the police have become that their first response to having a gun pointed at them is to use force! Fascism is here, people! 561

[Terr]

I mean, really, does a child pointing a gun deserve a death sentence? 562

[BOOM!]

Originally Posted by Velocity

Are you having a "Karl Rove 2012" type of moment? No disrespect.

Is this a parody of passive-aggressive behaviour?

No disrespect. 563

[elucidator]

...you'll have to acknowledge that the shot person pointed a gun at the cops.

(Post shortened because I loves me some of them ellipses.)

So, what if he did? Does one such situation prove anything? That there are bad people who are legitimately shot by the police? OK, then what does that prove? That such things happen, sure, OK. That they are the norm? OK, maybe, lets grant that for the sake of common ground.

Even if race-based police brutality were not common, exceptional, not the norm.....then what? We shrug it off and tell ourselves this is all just exaggerated? Its not normal, so its not a problem until it becomes normal? 564

[Smapti]

Originally Posted by elucidator

So, what if he did? Does one such situation prove anything? That there are bad people who are legitimately shot by the police? OK, then what does that prove? That such things happen, sure, OK. That they are the norm? OK, maybe, lets grant that for the sake of common ground.

Even if race-based police brutality were not common, exceptional, not the norm.....then what? We shrug it off and tell ourselves this is all just exaggerated? Its not normal, so its not a problem until it becomes normal?

Then we ask ourselves why crowds of people are still gathering to "protest" legitimate self-defense shootings, and we ask if maybe this lot is less interested in justice than it is in blood, and we ask who is really acting out of a racial interest here. 565

[elucidator]

Originally Posted by Terr

I mean, really, does a child pointing a gun deserve a death sentence?

No. Might it be necessary, given extraordinary circumstances? Yes. Have you any other really, really stupid questions? 566

[elucidator]

Originally Posted by Smapti

Then we ask ourselves why crowds of people are still gathering to "protest" legitimate self-defense shootings, and we ask if maybe this lot is less interested in justice than it is in blood, and we ask who is really acting out of a racial interest here.

Talk to yourself a lot, do you? Probably for the best, actually. 567

[Smapti]

Originally Posted by elucidator

Talk to yourself a lot, do you? Probably for the best, actually.

Why do you suppose people are gathering to protest a legitimate act of self-defense? 568

[Frylock]

This link seems relevant, though slightly off-topic:

Off duty black cops in New York feel threatened by fellow police officers. 569

[John Mace]

Originally Posted by elucidator

(Post shortened because I loves me some of them ellipses.)

So, what if he did? Does one such situation prove anything? That there are bad people who are legitimately shot by the police? OK, then what does that prove? That such things happen, sure, OK. That they are the norm? OK, maybe, lets grant that for the sake of common ground.

Even if race-based police brutality were not common, exceptional, not the norm.....then what? We shrug it off and tell ourselves this is all just exaggerated? Its not normal, so its not a problem until it becomes normal?

The argument that was ensuing, above, was whether or not the cops were telling the truth. If it turns out the victim did point a gun at the cops, then the argument is over. Yes, a new argument will probably spring up, but for now, that particular argument is about this particular incident. 570

[Velocity]

Originally Posted by Terr

I mean, really, does a child pointing a gun deserve a death sentence?

If you're referring to last night's shooting, wasn't the shot person 18 years old?


Also, child or not, isn't a gun a gun? Are the bullets less deadly because a child wields the gun? 571

[Terr]

Originally Posted by Velocity

If you're referring to last night's shooting, wasn't the shot person 18 years old?

So was Brown. Still was referred to as a child a lot, wasn't he?

Also, child or not, isn't a gun a gun? Are the bullets less deadly because a child wields the gun?

Whooosh. 572

[Velocity]

So, Terr, tell us, what would you do if you were a cop and an 18-year old pointed a gun at you? 573

[Terr]

Originally Posted by Velocity

So, Terr, tell us, what would you do if you were a cop and an 18-year old pointed a gun at you?

Shoot him. 574

[Der Trihs]

Originally Posted by Smapti

Then we ask ourselves why crowds of people are still gathering to "protest" legitimate self-defense shootings, and we ask if maybe this lot is less interested in justice than it is in blood, and we ask who is really acting out of a racial interest here.

No; we recognize that the cops have harassed, assaulted and killed so many people so systematically while indulging in racism, homophobia, classism, bullying, theft and so forth that they've destroyed their moral authority among much of society, along with any trust for them.

So they can claim self defense all they like, and regardless of the truth of the claim they simply won't be believed by much of the population. Since after all, the cops would claim it was self defense even if what actually happened is the cop killed the guy for fun, or out of bigotry, or out of incompetence, or to rob him. 575

[BigAppleBucky]

NYC Resistance channel on YouTube

The guy is pretty savvy. He videos the cops from hiding so he doesn't get his camera destroyed or himself arrested. In the linked video he talks to the victim after the plain cloths officers left. Apparently stop and frisk has gone underground and has not stopped.

No permission given by the guy for the search. 576

[BigAppleBucky]

Video says another victim

Good grief there are a lot of these. In this case a cop driving his squad car scrapes a parked SUV. Instead of fessing up, the cop arrests the SUV owner. Without the surveillance camera video the victim (SUV owner) would have been sunk. 577

[Snowboarder Bo]

Originally Posted by BigAppleBucky

NYC Resistance channel on YouTube

The guy is pretty savvy. He videos the cops from hiding so he doesn't get his camera destroyed or himself arrested. In the linked video he talks to the victim after the plain cloths officers left. Apparently stop and frisk has gone underground and has not stopped.

No permission given by the guy for the search.

I like how the license plate was bent up so the plate number was obscured, making ID difficult. 578

[BigAppleBucky]

Cops caught lying

Cops tried to suppress the dash cam video, but it came out and saved the victim.

How many times are people falsely arrested and not saved by videos? Scary thought.

Last one. Merry Christmas. 579

[iiandyiiii]

Originally Posted by Smapti

Then we ask ourselves why crowds of people are still gathering to "protest" legitimate self-defense shootings, and we ask if maybe this lot is less interested in justice than it is in blood, and we ask who is really acting out of a racial interest here.

Most of the protesters are protesting actions that they do not believe are legitimately self-defense. Eric Garner wasn't killed in self-defense, for example. He was killed by the cops while they were trying to arrest him. 580

[Terr]

Originally Posted by iiandyiiii

Most of the protesters are protesting actions that they do not believe are legitimately self-defense. Eric Garner wasn't killed in self-defense, for example. He was killed by the cops while they were trying to arrest him.

There was never any claim that Eric Garner was killed in self-defense.

As we post protesters are protesting legitimate self-defense. I mean, it doesn't get more legitimate than when someone is pointing a gun at the self-defender. 581

[Snowboarder Bo]

Originally Posted by Terr

There was never any claim that Eric Garner was killed in self-defense.

As we post protesters are protesting legitimate self-defense. I mean, it doesn't get more legitimate than when someone is pointing a gun at the self-defender.

Objection! Argument relies on facts not in evidence: it has not been established that anyone was pointing a gun except for the police officer who killed someone. 582

[Blank Slate]

Originally Posted by Terr

Shoot him.

All those years of hanging up paper targets of black kids at the shooting range would finally pay off. 583

[Drunky Smurf]

Originally Posted by Blank Slate

All those years of hanging up paper targets of black kids at the shooting range would finally pay off.

Liberals: "I have no logical argument, so, you're racist." 584

[Snowboarder Bo]

Originally Posted by Drunky Smurf

Liberals: "I have no logical argument, so, you're racist."

Did Blank Slate change his name to Liberals? Because I'm still seeing him post as Blank Slate. 585

[Smapti]

Originally Posted by Snowboarder Bo

Objection! Argument relies on facts not in evidence: it has not been established that anyone was pointing a gun except for the police officer who killed someone.

And the guy who was caught on surveillance camera pointing a gun at a police officer.

But I'm sure the police probably just edited the video on their squad car computer while ducking bottles and firecrackers because racism. 586

[iiandyiiii]

Originally Posted by Terr

There was never any claim that Eric Garner was killed in self-defense.

As we post protesters are protesting legitimate self-defense. I mean, it doesn't get more legitimate than when someone is pointing a gun at the self-defender.

I was unaware this was established as a fact. I thought it was just the report of the officer. 587

[Happy Fun Ball]

Originally Posted by Drunky Smurf

Liberals: "I have no logical argument, so, you're racist."

Conservatives: "All black men are uppity criminals and deserve what they get." 588

[FuriousGeorge]

So... the video of the incident is out there. It's not very hard to find. It's seems pretty cut and dry to me. Dude pointed a gun at cops within extremely close proximity. Not sure this one is debatable.

Are we ignoring it? Are we rationalizing it? Are we saying it's edited, doctored, made up? Help me out. I got signs to make for the annual Cops are Racist Thugs Christmas Pageant. 589

[Blank Slate]

Originally Posted by Drunky Smurf

Liberals: "I have no logical argument, so, you're racist."

I wasn't involved in an argument.

One of the cornerstones of white conservatism is racial antipathy. What? Do you guys think that you're operating in secret? 590

[Snowboarder Bo]

Originally Posted by Smapti

And the guy who was caught on surveillance camera pointing a gun at a police officer.

But I'm sure the police probably just edited the video on their squad car computer while ducking bottles and firecrackers because racism.

You can see a gun? I can't see a gun. In the enhanced video on the Guardian site, I can see someone who appears to be pointing but I can't see a gun nor can I tell that he's pointing at the officer.

For a guy who's so blind to facts, you sure seem to have incredible sight when it suits you. 591

[YogSothoth]

Given the climate of racial tension right now and the fact that so many abuses by police have been brought to light, we definitely should question the cop's word if he said its self-defense. He shot a person, therefore protests are expected and proper. Until he can prove otherwise, I have no problems with the people deciding to be angry about yet another killing by a cop 592

[Smapti]

Originally Posted by Snowboarder Bo

You can see a gun? I can't see a gun. In the enhanced video on the Guardian site, I can see someone who appears to be pointing but I can't see a gun nor can I tell that he's pointing at the officer.

For a guy who's so blind to facts, you sure seem to have incredible sight when it suits you.

And what of the gun that was found on him loaded and ready to fire? I suppose you think the cops planted that after they shot an unarmed man and realized the security footage they hadn't seen yet would show him in a position exactly as if he'd been holding a gun?

I suppose it makes much more sense that he decided to stop running, face the police, assume a shooting posture, and point at them. And they shot him anyway, because all cops are racist and get out of bed every morning hoping today will bring their big chance to shoot an unarmed Negro. 593

[FuriousGeorge]

Originally Posted by Snowboarder Bo

You can see a gun? I can't see a gun. In the enhanced video on the Guardian site, I can see someone who appears to be pointing but I can't see a gun nor can I tell that he's pointing at the officer.

For a guy who's so blind to facts, you sure seem to have incredible sight when it suits you.

I haven't seen contortion work like this since I dropped a fin to get in to that seedy strip joint in the misspent days of my much younger self. 594

[Evil Economist]

Originally Posted by Der Trihs

No; we recognize that the cops have harassed, assaulted and killed so many people so systematically while indulging in racism, homophobia, classism, bullying, theft and so forth that they've destroyed their moral authority among much of society, along with any trust for them.

So they can claim self defense all they like, and regardless of the truth of the claim they simply won't be believed by much of the population. Since after all, the cops would claim it was self defense even if what actually happened is the cop killed the guy for fun, or out of bigotry, or out of incompetence, or to rob him.

If a child didn't understand this, I would have him read "The boy who cried wolf." If a grown ass man posting on a message board didn't understand this, I would blame his parents for failing him at the age when he was still capable of self-improvement. 595

[Evil Economist]

Originally Posted by Steophan

It doesn't need to be independently established. Unless there's any evidence that they're lying, there's no reason not to take them at their word.

This has nothing to do with them being cops, by the way, the same applies to any action in self defence - you believe the victim. The victim, of course, being the person who was made to use lethal force in self defence by the threatening actions of another - in this case, the police officer.

Unless you have any evidence that says otherwise.

You forgot that if it's some black kids defending themselves from some violent white police officers, then none of the above applies. Or maybe that was just your personal hypocrisy and racism? 596

[elucidator]

...I have no problems with the people deciding to be angry about yet another killing by a cop

I have several problems with that. First, I have met a couple of first-rate human beings who are cops, who truly embody that whole "protect and serve" thingy. My respect level is pegged at "awe", and is reserved for people who routinely accomplish what I simply cannot do. They deserve better, and they deserve other cops much like themselves. How many are there? Dunno.

Met the other kind, too. 'Nuff sed.

Second, it doesn't matter. Tenemos a serious ass problemo. One that demands fixing. Even if the protestors are exaggerating, even if only half what they way is true....if only a quarter of what they say is true!...we cannot abide it, we cannot dismiss it.

A start....a start, mind you!.... is body cams for all cops. Good cops will bitch about it as well as the bad ones, but you know out of one eye they'll be looking at the jerks they have to put up with and counting the days before they fuck up. Raise the pay, raise the standards, pension off the dead wood that can't measure up. Aim to make being a cop a profession, with professional education, pay, and community respect.

Gonna cost a buttload. You-know-who will shriek in porcine rage. Attach it as a rider to the appropriation of the Whizbang Missile Mark 34 program. Gonna be hard, too, something is rotten in our foundation and we have to hold the whole structure up with one hand while we replace the basement bricks with the other. But it has to be done. Biased justice is not justice, it is merely a milder form of tyranny. Fuck that shit, to paraphrase Thom Paine.

The is my edict as Queen of Romania. Tremble and obey, my possums! 597

[Snowboarder Bo]

Originally Posted by Smapti

And what of the gun that was found on him loaded and ready to fire? I suppose you think the cops planted that after they shot an unarmed man and realized the security footage they hadn't seen yet would show him in a position exactly as if he'd been holding a gun?

So you're saying that officer present didn't notice that the man he shot had his arm extended? Then why did he shoot him? And yeah, I find it plausible that a cop would plant a gun to try and justify his actions.

Originally Posted by Smapti

I suppose it makes much more sense that he decided to stop running, face the police, assume a shooting posture, and point at them. And they shot him anyway, because all cops are racist and get out of bed every morning hoping today will bring their big chance to shoot an unarmed Negro.

So every time I point at something across the street I've "assumed a shooting posture"? What about when I wave? Is that a "shooting posture"? Can I make an "okay" sign or is that also a "shooting posture"?

The thing is, Smapti, you don't know any more than I do, but you've already reached a conclusion, not only about the shooting but about what I think. You think I think the cop is racist, even tho there's absolutely nothing I've ever posted that would back up that belief, for instance. It's stunning, because at the moment, I haven't ascribed any position on this yet other than "I do not know what happened and have seen little or no evidence at all".

Somehow, tho, you already know what happened. That's why people give you shit: you have no critical thinking skills, only a knee-jerk reaction that is ALWAYS in favor of the police. 598

[Snowboarder Bo]

Originally Posted by FuriousGeorge

I haven't seen contortion work like this since I dropped a fin to get in to that seedy strip joint in the misspent days of my much younger self.

So you can see a gun in the video? 599

[John Mace]

I watched the video on the nightly news, and it's pretty fuzzy. I can see the guy raising his arm, but there wasn't enough detail to see a gun. I assume we will be shown an enhanced version in the next few days. 600