Straight Dope Message Board

[asahi]

It's funny how she was, merely a few months ago, even more of a super bitch than Hillary Clinton, facing an intra-party revolt from political outsiders who were certain she was an old hag who had no place in politics.

But take a look at what she's doing now. Look at how she's playing Donald Trump. The Trumpster fire knew how to beat Hillary Clinton on the campaign trail, and he knew how to wreck much of the Washington establishment. Trump has changed the calculus of campaigning.

But Nancy Pelosi is an entirely different opponent, and I'm not sure that Trump (or even the layperson) really understands it yet. Pelosi is a shrewd, calculating, political bad-ass. Donald Trump is like a tough man contest brawler. He screams. He charges. He throws haymakers. And the rest of the Washington establishment wasn't prepared. Nancy Pelosi is like an aikido-ka. She's using his raw energy against him, and pinning him in his own corner. It's a sight to behold.

Go, Nancy, go!!!! 1

[JKellyMap]

Love it. 2

[Hamlet]

Please, please, please, dont do this. I beg you and all liberals, to not hold her (or anyone else) up as a paragon. Ideas, not people, are what should be the foundation of any sustainable viewpoint. Let the Pubbies do the hero worship (Reagan. Trump) thing, and instead focus on ideas like fairness, wealth inequality, voter equality, and adherence to the ideas of checks and balances. 3

[asahi]

Originally Posted by Hamlet

Please, please, please, dont do this. I beg you and all liberals, to not hold her (or anyone else) up as a paragon. Ideas, not people, are what should be the foundation of any sustainable viewpoint. Let the Pubbies do the hero worship (Reagan. Trump) thing, and instead focus on ideas like fairness, wealth inequality, voter equality, and adherence to the ideas of checks and balances.

I don't hold Pelosi up as a paragon, except to point out that she's ripping Trump's testicles away from him -- and that's just a fucking awesome thing when you consider all the limp-dick, hyper-sensitive, sniveling, snot-nosed white male mother fuckers who supported him and who despise Nancy Pelosi for being a strong woman.

I want to go one thing off my chest in case I haven't made it clear. Some people say shit like "Oh, don't hate the voter, hate the politics and the politicians who exploit them."

Naw, sorry, but fuck that. It doesn't take too much effort to be a good person, a good citizen, and a lover of thy fellow man. If you're voting for Trump and if you're not voting against him, then fuck you. 4

[Monty]

Originally Posted by asahi

But take a look at what she's doing now. Look at how she's playing Donald Trump. The Trumpster fire knew how to beat Hillary Clinton on the campaign trail, and he knew how to wreck much of the Washington establishment. Trump has changed the calculus of campaigning.

Can't believe I've missed the term "trumpster fire" until now. Great neologism to whoever came up with it!

Anyway, Trump did not beat Clinton on the campaign trail. He beat her in the Electoral College. Two different things and something that sticks in his craw to this moment. 5

[digs]

Originally Posted by asahi

I don't hold Pelosi up as a paragon, except to point out... Naw, sorry, but fuck that. It doesn't take too much effort to be a good person, a good citizen, and a lover of thy fellow man. If you're voting for Trump and if you're not voting against him, then fuck you.

What does this have to do with the topic, or your OP?

It's like you try to stay on the subject, even if it's your own subject, and you were doing so well... But you can't go through a whole paragraph without getting red in the face and shouting "Screw You! You Didn't Vote Against Trump!" (which by the way is virtually no one in this thread).

I'm going to call it Tourette's/Trumpette's Syndrome. 6

[Fiddle Peghead]

Originally Posted by Hamlet

Please, please, please, dont do this. I beg you and all liberals, to not hold her (or anyone else) up as a paragon. Ideas, not people, are what should be the foundation of any sustainable viewpoint. Let the Pubbies do the hero worship (Reagan. Trump) thing, and instead focus on ideas like fairness, wealth inequality, voter equality, and adherence to the ideas of checks and balances.

Walking. Chewing gum. 🙄 7

[kambuckta]

Originally Posted by Hamlet

Please, please, please, dont do this. I beg you and all liberals, to not hold her (or anyone else) up as a paragon. Ideas, not people, are what should be the foundation of any sustainable viewpoint. Let the Pubbies do the hero worship (Reagan. Trump) thing, and instead focus on ideas like fairness, wealth inequality, voter equality, and adherence to the ideas of checks and balances.

Yeah, there's that of course.

But in the meantime, before the US gets back to a state where actual discourse and shit matters again, it's grouse to see her kicking him in the nuts.

Go Nancy...this Aussie sheila approves. 8

[panache45]

So why is this in the Pit? 9

[kambuckta]

Originally Posted by Fiddle Peghead

Walking. Chewing gum. 🙄

Where'd you get that rolleye smilie?? MUCH better than the one offered here! 10

[Sunny Daze]

Originally Posted by panache45

So why is this in the Pit?

So we can bitch at asahi? 11

[madmonk28]

The problem with Pelosi is that she’ll use her leverage for some stupid small-ball gain. She doesn’t understand the game has completely changed and she’s so fucking old. I’m gen x and I waited my whole life for the boomers to get out of the way and they never fucking did. 12

[Fiddle Peghead]

Originally Posted by kambuckta

Where'd you get that rolleye smilie?? MUCH better than the one offered here!

👽 Aliens. 13

[E-DUB]

Originally Posted by madmonk28

The problem with Pelosi is that she’ll use her leverage for some stupid small-ball gain. She doesn’t understand the game has completely changed and she’s so fucking old. I’m gen x and I waited my whole life for the boomers to get out of the way and they never fucking did.

Get used to it. The WWII generation held the White House for FORTY YEARS, from the Supreme Commander to the youngest Navy aviator. Boomers will do just as well, maybe even better considering medical advances. Gen X will be the new "silent generation" which fielded the likes of Dukakis, Babbit, McCain, Hart and more. The presidency, like many traits, skips generations occasionally. 14

[octopus]

Originally Posted by kambuckta

Where'd you get that rolleye smilie?? MUCH better than the one offered here!

Depends on your device I think.

🐙 15

[DrDeth]

Originally Posted by madmonk28

The problem with Pelosi is that she’ll use her leverage for some stupid small-ball gain. She doesn’t understand the game has completely changed and she’s so fucking old. I’m gen x and I waited my whole life for the boomers to get out of the way and they never fucking did.

What gain do you want her to go for?

With age comes experience and skills, do you think Trump and the GOP would be scared of any of the young frosh congresspersons? 16

[Nava]

Interesting, I can see the alien and the octopus but not the "nice rolleyes". 17

[Smapti]

Originally Posted by DrDeth

With age comes experience and skills, do you think Trump and the GOP would be scared of any of the young frosh congresspersons?

They already seem to think Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is the unholy love child of Karl Marx and Margaret Sanger, with a touch of Saul Alinsky's DNA mixed in, and garnished with a pinch of Jane Fonda. 18

[Sandwich]

Originally Posted by madmonk28

The problem with Pelosi is that she’ll use her leverage for some stupid small-ball gain. She doesn’t understand the game has completely changed and she’s so fucking old. I’m gen x and I waited my whole life for the boomers to get out of the way and they never fucking did.

Say what you like about Ms Pelosi, she didn’t stand back politely waiting for others to step aside and give her permission to strive for her own goals. Have you considered writing to her asking if she might substitute your goals for her own? You could explain that you’re too busy to be politically active, but that your objectives are more important than hers, so she really should just do what you want. 19

[blindboyard]

She is keeping the government shut down rather than agree to a few billion to extend the existing border barriers. All for political posturing. 20

[asahi]

Originally Posted by blindboyard

She is keeping the government shut down rather than agree to a few billion to extend the existing border barriers. All for political posturing.

It was Trump who unilaterally, against his own Republican party in the Senate, shut the government down. She has already introduced multiple bills to reopen the government -even temporarily - and those bills have been blocked in the Senate by Mitch McConnell for fear that the president will look like even more of an ass by vetoing those, too.

Pelosi is teaching Trump a painful political lesson. Campaigning is one thing - Trump has proven he can campaign. This isn't a campaign. This is institutional, procedural, political. It's an entirely different battlefield. She's a crocodile that's dragging him further away from land. 21

[running coach]

Originally Posted by blindboyard

She is keeping the government shut down rather than agree to a few billion to extend the existing border barriers. All for political posturing.

You seem to have forgotten that there was a deal of 25 billion for the wall in exchange for DACA that Trump said he would sign. He than refused to sign it after it passed both chambers of Congress because right-wing loudmouths complained.
He can't be trusted to keep his side of a deal. 22

[iiandyiiii]

Originally Posted by blindboyard

She is keeping the government shut down rather than agree to a few billion to extend the existing border barriers. All for political posturing.

This is false -- the House has been passing numerous bills to reopen the government, at the same funding levels that both parties in the Senate overwhelmingly supported last month. She's taking action to reopen the government, but the Senate and Trump are doing absolutely nothing. That's probably why public opinion overwhelmingly blames Trump and the Republicans for this shutdown, and not her. 23

[asahi]

Originally Posted by running coach

You seem to have forgotten that there was a deal of 25 billion for the wall in exchange for DACA that Trump said he would sign. He than refused to sign it after it passed both chambers of Congress because right-wing loudmouths complained.
He can't be trusted to keep his side of a deal.

This ^ and especially the bold part. Trump had a deal, and this wonderful 'deal maker' blew it up.

Trump is chained to his base. And his base is also chained to the base. Trump is fearful of what happens if he cuts ties with right wing loudmouths, and the right wing loudmouths are fearful of what happens when they stop using their schtick. They've played the game of niche politics. They have no niche they can really transition into. They've been playing a game of extreme politics because there seemed like no consequences to deal with. Well now there are consequences, like up to 800,000 people getting reduced or no income for a month or more. That also reverberates throughout the economy. 24

[Ike Witt]

Originally Posted by blindboyard

She is keeping the government shut down rather than agree to a few billion to extend the existing border barriers. All for political posturing.

And what happens going forward if the Dems do cave on this? The 'crying, whining shut down' becomes the first arrow in Trumps quiver. This is the Dems version of not negotiating with terrorists. You give in once, and it will never stop. 25

[madmonk28]

Originally Posted by DrDeth

What gain do you want her to go for?

With age comes experience and skills, do you think Trump and the GOP would be scared of any of the young frosh congresspersons?

I think that by pulling this stunt she is raising her profile and runs the risk of being a big fat target. She is about as unpopular as Trump in national polls and I think that Trump is doing a great job of shooting himself in the foot, almost hourly without any help from the Democrats.

The boomers have had a stranglehold on our politics and culture for far too long. By refusing to yield power Pelosi is preventing a new generation of leadership and ideas to emerge. She represents business as usual at a time in American politics when business as usual has been discredited.

I also thought her blocking Kathleen Rice from a seat on the Judiciary Committee because Rice had been critical of Pelosi was petty bullshit that is not in the interest of the party or the nation.

Pelosi will have her moment and then realize that she's overplayed her hand and has shifted blame for the shutdown from Trump to her and the Democrats in the mind of the public. 26

[ElvisL1ves]

Originally Posted by madmonk28

By refusing to yield power Pelosi is preventing a new generation of leadership and ideas to emerge.

Power is taken, not given. Who is the next generation's candidate for leadership? How have they demonstrated their readiness to take over? 27

[The Librarian]

Originally Posted by madmonk28

I think that by pulling this stunt she is raising her profile and runs the risk of being a big fat target. She is about as unpopular as Trump in national polls and I think that Trump is doing a great job of shooting himself in the foot, almost hourly without any help from the Democrats.

The boomers have had a stranglehold on our politics and culture for far too long. By refusing to yield power Pelosi is preventing a new generation of leadership and ideas to emerge. She represents business as usual at a time in American politics when business as usual has been discredited.

I also thought her blocking Kathleen Rice from a seat on the Judiciary Committee because Rice had been critical of Pelosi was petty bullshit that is not in the interest of the party or the nation.

Pelosi will have her moment and then realize that she's overplayed her hand and has shifted blame for the shutdown from Trump to her and the Democrats in the mind of the public.

I know it doesn't pay to overestimate the intelligence of "the public" but even the dumbest mouth breathing redneck can remember Trump saying: "I'm proud to shut down the government". 28

[madmonk28]

Originally Posted by The Librarian

I know it doesn't pay to overestimate the intelligence of "the public" but even the dumbest mouth breathing redneck can remember Trump saying: "I'm proud to shut down the government".

I doubt that most of them are even aware he made that statement. People who vote for reality show TV stars to be president aren't the most informed voters on earth. 29

[The Tooth]

Originally Posted by The Librarian

I know it doesn't pay to overestimate the intelligence of "the public" but even the dumbest mouth breathing redneck can remember Trump saying: "I'm proud to shut down the government".

It's a fact that he said that, yes, but the right doesn't base their opinions on facts. They believe what they're told to believe whether it's true or not, and now they're being told Trump's not to blame. 30

[madmonk28]

Yup and what news they get is from Fox News which is straight up propaganda. Also, Pelosi using security as an excuse to cancel the speech is just fucking stupid and you can bet Fox is going to be hammering that point. 31

[madmonk28]

Missed the edit, but it's important to remember that Trump likes Pelosi as the leader and sees her as his best chance to stay out of jail.

Trump is a proud counterpuncher, but when it comes to Pelosi, he has pulled back on his jabs. That is deliberate, aides and advisers said, because the president believes she would help protect him from impeachment and because he considers her more reasonable than other Democrats.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...=.a8908e81ca98

He knows she's a political hack who won't do the right thing, but will make a deal with him in the end. 32

[ElvisL1ves]

It's stupid taken in isolation, but politically effective in context. Which is the point, as someone knows who understands power rather than complains about lacking it. 33

[Ravenman]

Originally Posted by asahi

Go, Nancy, go!!!!

I agree. Pelosi has totally grabbed Trump by his pussy. 34

[bobot]

Originally Posted by blindboyard

She is keeping the government shut down rather than agree to a few billion to extend the existing border barriers. All for political posturing.

Wrong. The house has passed bills to re-open the government. Please hang up and try your call again later. 35

[Inigo Montoya]

Originally Posted by Sandwich

Have you considered writing to her asking if she might substitute your goals for her own? You could explain that you’re too busy to be politically active, but that your objectives are more important than hers, so she really should just do what you want.

Well said. I'll be appropriating this, and probably using it on myself when I get bitchy. 36

[madmonk28]

You all sound like a bunch of fucking Republicans; we must line up behind the leader and anyone who questions her is the enemy. Let's check back in a week and see if public opinion starts to blame the Democrats for the shutdown and Trump's approval starts to creep up. 37

[ElvisL1ves]

All the poll trends are in the opposite direction, Slugger. But you can let your (ageist, misogynistic - Trumpian/Sanders-like?) hatred of Pelosi fester if you like. 38

[madmonk28]

Pelosi just pulled her stunt, do you not understand that it takes about a week for events to start to show their impact in polling? Are you really that fucking stupid? What you and your ilk don't understand is that Pelosi is pulling stunts like this instead of investigating Trump and pursuing impeachment. She'll pander to the moderately informed for cheap fund raising and business as usual bullshit, but she won't take a stand and pursue the removal from office of Trump. 39

[Airbeck]

She's trying to get the government running again. If she starts on anything else before this gets resolved the headlines write themselves. 40

[Inigo Montoya]

Originally Posted by madmonk28

You all sound like a bunch of fucking Republicans; we must line up behind the leader and anyone who questions her is the enemy.

A new high in unclarity, even for you. Are you suggesting we need to back Pelosi like good little Nazis, or are you uncomfortable with the way Ms. Pelosi is pwning Trump just now? Anyone who supports someone you loathe, even if only sometimes, is a Republican? Something else entirely?

ETA: Nevermind, you clarified. I disagree with your position. Is that way over the line? 41

[asahi]

Originally Posted by madmonk28

Pelosi just pulled her stunt, do you not understand that it takes about a week for events to start to show their impact in polling? Are you really that fucking stupid? What you and your ilk don't understand is that Pelosi is pulling stunts like this instead of investigating Trump and pursuing impeachment. She'll pander to the moderately informed for cheap fund raising and business as usual bullshit, but she won't take a stand and pursue the removal from office of Trump.

You're worried about optics and you think it would somehow look better if her first priority of business were to subpoena the president at a time when 800,000 civil servants are losing a month of income already? Isn't Bob Mueller already investigating the president? What is she more capable of achieving at this point: an impeachment with a Republican senate, or getting the government open again?

Let me guess...you're a Bernie bro. 42

[CarnalK]

Originally Posted by madmonk28

Pelosi just pulled her stunt, do you not understand that it takes about a week for events to start to show their impact in polling? Are you really that fucking stupid? What you and your ilk don't understand is that Pelosi is pulling stunts like this instead of investigating Trump and pursuing impeachment. She'll pander to the moderately informed for cheap fund raising and business as usual bullshit, but she won't take a stand and pursue the removal from office of Trump.

She's not pursuing impeachment becaue she thinks it's a bad move not because canceling this SotU is taking up all her time. And in case you missed the news, there's a rather extensive investigation into Trump already going on. It's pretty weird for you to complain about this "stunt" when a doomed to fail impeachment attempt you wish for would be a hell of a costlier outrageous stunt. 43

[ElvisL1ves]

More specifically, it's premature to pursue impeachment until after Mueller reports out.

Originally Posted by madmonk28

Pelosi just pulled her stunt, do you not understand that it takes about a week for events to start to show their impact in polling? Are you really that fucking stupid?

You'd have to provide some basis for expecting such a reversal other than your own hatred, wherever that originates. So, what is it? 44

[Procrustus]

Originally Posted by madmonk28

You all sound like a bunch of fucking Republicans; we must line up behind the leader and anyone who questions her is the enemy. Let's check back in a week and see if public opinion starts to blame the Democrats for the shutdown and Trump's approval starts to creep up.

Many of us were not keen on Pelosi being the new Speaker. This thread, IMO, is a place to appreciate that she's doing a fine job and is impressive beyond our expectations. That's how I see it anyway. So, I'm not lining up behind her because she's the leader, I'm applauding her leadership. As for "business as usual," after the past two years I think returning to business as usual would be a good first step. After that we can start working on more progressive reforms.

The clear and present danger right now is Trump. And the people enabling him (looking at you, Mitch). Speaker Pelosi seems to understand that. 45

[Ravenman]

Originally Posted by madmonk28

You all sound like a bunch of fucking Republicans; we must line up behind the leader and anyone who questions her is the enemy. Let's check back in a week and see if public opinion starts to blame the Democrats for the shutdown and Trump's approval starts to creep up.

Originally Posted by asahi

You're worried about optics and you think it would somehow look better if her first priority of business were to subpoena the president at a time when 800,000 civil servants are losing a month of income already? Isn't Bob Mueller already investigating the president? What is she more capable of achieving at this point: an impeachment with a Republican senate, or getting the government open again?

Let me guess...you're a Bernie bro.

Holy shit, there's some kind of Freaky Friday thing going on! asahi has taken over madmonk's account to accuse everyone of being in Trump's corner, and madmonk had taken over ashai's account to be a voice of reason! 46

[Buck Godot]

Originally Posted by madmonk28

What you and your ilk don't understand is that Pelosi is pulling stunts like this instead of investigating Trump and pursuing impeachment. She'll pander to the moderately informed for cheap fund raising and business as usual bullshit, but she won't take a stand and pursue the removal from office of Trump.

Pursuing impeachment at this point of time would be just about the stupidest thing for the Dems to do. Yes it feels good for the Liberal base, but it accomplishes nothing (there is no way senate votes for removal), and it actually undermines our best weapon against Trump. There is right now as we speak an non-partisan independent investigation that is uncovering more of Trump's deepest darkest secrets than anything the Dems could do on their own. If The Dems start grandstanding with a partisan investigation of their own and calls for impeachment , then it will get mixed up with Mueller investigation in the public's eyes, and be largely dismissed as all partisan.

Pelosi needs to let Mueller and the New York AGs finish their work, and then once all the secrets have been carefully arranged in nice neat little piles by an independent entity, she can decide best how to use this ammunition to storm the castle.

You complained of her playing small ball, but I will remind you what moneyball taught us. Home runs are exciting and all for the fans, but if you want to win games, pay attention to the on base percentage. 47

[Chefguy]

Originally Posted by running coach

You seem to have forgotten that there was a deal of 25 billion for the wall in exchange for DACA that Trump said he would sign. He than refused to sign it after it passed both chambers of Congress because right-wing loudmouths complained.
He can't be trusted to keep his side of a deal.

Trump has a well-documented history of lying, cheating and weaseling on deals. Trusting him to keep his word only leads to tears and regret. He only understands power, and Pelosi is showing him that she can go toe-to-toe with the best of them. I'm sure that he rages around the White House at night because a woman is daring to get into a punching contest with him. Hopefully, he'll work himself up into a stroke. 48

[Cheesesteak]

Originally Posted by Procrustus

I'm not lining up behind her because she's the leader, I'm applauding her leadership.

I just thought this deserved repeating. 49

[ElvisL1ves]

Her leadership is also why we have ACA, as well. 50