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Old 01-04-2019, 08:18 AM
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Gotham - The Final Season


Despite being cut off from the mainland for months, the residents of Gotham still manage to be stylishly attired. They may not any food or medicine, or ammo for that matter, but their wardrobes are impeccable. Like that weird, spooky sister, er, nurse. I take it the witch she keeps whispering is going to cure Selina.

Are we finally ready to see Batman? Also the Joker, which this show has been coy about for some reason. They've certainly been teasing him enough. Jeremiah had better fall into a vat of chemicals, pushed there by Bruce wearing a cape.
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Old 01-04-2019, 06:13 PM
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Well, there's plenty of water, presumably, as otherwise everybody would have died of thirst by now, and there's power, so presumably they have the ability to wash their clothes.

Strange, though, that electrical lines seem to exist, but phone line's don't - otherwise, why would Gordon have to contact "the mainland" via radio? For that matter, are there cellphones in this timeline? Why would those stop working?
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Old 01-05-2019, 01:17 AM
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Previous seasons showed them using flip phones, of the turn-of-the-century variety. I presume everyone's cell phone plan has been cancelled, since no one has any ability to pay.
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Old 01-05-2019, 01:23 PM
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It has been an absolutely wild ride. I don't have the slightest idea how the final season is going to shake out, but that's the beauty of it: other than certain characters having to survive somehow, anything goes. (I did not see Ra's Al Ghul's fate coming at all.) You guys have issues with casting, pacing, too-convenient timing, emotional immaturity, disrespect for the law, David Mazouz not doing enough ab days. Whatever. I'm seeing shootouts and tense standoffs and mind games and the GCPD being effective for once, and I'm loving every minute of it.

Is it a major departure from the source material? Yes, yes it is. So was the 60's TV series. So were the Tim Burton and Joel Schumacher movies. So was Batman: The Animated Series. So was The Killing Joke, and that's one of the most freaking universally praised Batman stories ever. Heck, Batman Beyond may as well have been in another galaxy. Guess what, doing the same thing for 80+ years gets boring. I'm no fanboy; I can accept a fresh take on a classic property, and thus far Gotham has always delivered.

Sooooo...speculation? Hopes? Dreams? Hmm...

- Feeling for Carmen Bicondova. For four seasons she gets to leap across rafters and do fight scenes and crack that whip, and in the climactic fifth season her role is lying on her back and crying because nobody can freaking move past The Killing Joke. I'm holding out for a miraculous recovery...heck, this is Catwoman, it kinda has to happen...but with things so chaotic, I can't help but worry that she's going to get lost in the shuffle.

- Every great conflict needs a wildcard, and this one's Barbara Kean. She is chaos incarnate. She's been in like a dozen plots and I still don't know whether to cheer, boo, or just stare in stunned silence. At first I took her for tragic what-coulda-been, a second-tier schemer who'd go the distance but ultimately fall to the true heavyweights. Hell, she actually honest-to-goodness was dead for a while. And she's still here. At this point I'm not even certain having the same name as Jim Gordon's future daughter has any significance. My eye's definitely on her.

- I know we're all anticipating it...heck, for some of us that's the only reason to watch in the first place...but I'm getting the nagging feeling that we might not see Bruce Wayne Becoming Batman. If they had three or four more seasons and David Mazouz had time to really grow into the role, I could see it, but with one left it just seems a bridge too far. The most likely result would be Bruce Wayne settling into adulthood and fully accepting the burden of leading Wayne Enterprises, and we see the completed Batmobile or the construction of a fancy computer or something. Anyway, it's clear that Gordon is the main focus here, and how he completes his ascension is what I'm more interested in.

- "The Witch"? That's Ivy Pepper, right? Does anyone really think it's not Ivy Pepper?

- It's a safe bet that Jeremiah Valeska is this show's version The Joker. Yeah, yeah, force of nature, no one knows his true past, there were going to tease a whole bunch of red herrings, etc. I don't recall Solomon Grundy ever being restored to life and then gunned down, and that sure as heck happened. The signs are all there: genius inventor, big vendetta against Bruce Wayne, bloodthirsty, infinitely treacherous, loves to toy with authority figures, willing to go to tremendous lengths to satisfy petty goals. Sure, we haven't heard any maniacal laughter, but there's no rule saying that The Joker has to laugh on the outside. It's possible that he gets replaced somewhere down the line, but for now, I have to think he's the man. Just not seeing any other avenue at this late stage.

- I know he was a largely useless meathead, but I want some closure on Nathaniel Barnes. Did he at least get cured?

All right! It's going to be a fun four months!
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Old 01-05-2019, 01:54 PM
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Is it a major departure from the source material? Yes, yes it is.
The only thing that worries me is (and I don't know why I should be), some of this is going to bleed over into the comic books. On the other hand, Yet Still Even Another Comic Book Involving Batman that takes place in the TV series' universe may not be such a bad idea.
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I know we're all anticipating it...heck, for some of us that's the only reason to watch in the first place...but I'm getting the nagging feeling that we might not see Bruce Wayne Becoming Batman.
I have a feeling the only reference to "Batman" will be, Bruce looking at a bat in the final shot of the final episode, and then possibly the "GOTHAM" logo that appears at the end of each episode morphs into "BATMAN."
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It's a safe bet that Jeremiah Valeska is this show's version The Joker. Yeah, yeah, force of nature, no one knows his true past, there were going to tease a whole bunch of red herrings, etc.
In an issue of Justice League comics, Batman sits in "the Mobius Chair" and asks two questions: "Who killed my parents?...That's right. What is the Joker's real name?...That's Impossible!"; it turns out the answer to the second question was, "Which one?"
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Old 01-19-2019, 08:15 PM
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I am so far not really feeling this, the final season of Gotham. I think it's because I don't understand why the (state? federal?) government would cut off a major city like that. It's not as if they have the plague. Aside from the humanitarian issues, wouldn't there be major commercial interests that would exert pressure to restore contact? My suspension of disbelief was already stretched as far as it could go by anachronistic technology and impeccably-dressed hobos; the isolated milieu may have just snapped it.
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Old 01-19-2019, 08:20 PM
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Refresh my memory. Where's Morena Baccarin this season?
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Old 01-19-2019, 08:50 PM
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Refresh my memory. Where's Morena Baccarin this season?
Lee and Ed stabbed each other at the end of last season, after which they were taken to Hugo Strange. We've seen Ed up and about, but we haven't seen Lee at all.

Morena Baccarin is voicing Gideon on The Flash.
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Old 01-20-2019, 05:26 PM
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I am so far not really feeling this, the final season of Gotham. I think it's because I don't understand why the (state? federal?) government would cut off a major city like that. It's not as if they have the plague. Aside from the humanitarian issues, wouldn't there be major commercial interests that would exert pressure to restore contact? My suspension of disbelief was already stretched as far as it could go by anachronistic technology and impeccably-dressed hobos; the isolated milieu may have just snapped it.
To me, the show has always had pretty solid internal logic, if you don't compare it to either previous iterations of Batman, or what might actually happen in real life. YMMV, but I'm enjoying this season so far, and I think they're setting up for a truly epic finish - though, like DKW, I have no idea what the finish will entail.

I am not at all worried about seeing Bruce Wayne become Batman. If I have to guess, I'd say we'll probably see him get inspired by bats somehow, and maybe see an early iteration of the costume. That's plenty for me; even less than that would be plenty. In fact, there's been more Bruce throughout the entire series than I'd have liked. We've seen countless Batman origin stories already. Gotham City before Batman has proven exponentially more interesting IMO.
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Old 01-20-2019, 10:10 PM
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To me, the show has always had pretty solid internal logic....
Based on how the characters have developed throughout the series, I think they've reacted pretty consistently given being isolated from the mainland. The various gangs consolidate and hold on to as much power as they can. The GCPD led by Jim Gordon would try to save as many refugees as possible. Bruce helps out but mostly sticks to himself. Serena is Serena. It's just that Gotham has been isolated for so long which seems too artificial.
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Old 01-21-2019, 02:57 PM
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Back when the series started, I remember reading somewhere that we will never see 'Batman' in this series, because the license the show negotiated for the franchise doesn't include actual Batman, but only Bruce Wayne's early life.

My guess is that the series will end with some bat-related imagery that nails home the point that Batman has arrived, but he won't be named and we won't see the costume.
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Old 03-08-2019, 04:43 PM
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For a minute, I thought I'd missed an episode. Jim and Lee start making out at the end of last episode, and then this week they're suddenly talking about raising his kid together? And then by the end of the hour they're married?? That sure happened fast, and several oceans worth of water would have to pass under the bridge for her to get back to that point, in my opinion. Ah well, I guess we just have to go with it.

My prediction is that Barbara will die in childbirth or shortly thereafter, it'll be a girl, and Jim and Lee will name her Barbara.
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Old 03-08-2019, 05:09 PM
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I'm thinking boy...while comics James jr is the younger of Jim and Barbara sr's kids (yeah, 4 people, 2 names...must have been fun answering the phone in the Gordon household), he is also canonically a psychopath like this version of Barbara... I can imagine him having Babs with Lee and James with Barbara...
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Old 03-08-2019, 05:53 PM
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My understanding is that the writers had the entire season arc planned out based on the original order then the network asked for more so they scrambled to tack on more stories. Hence the sometimes disjointed nature of these middle episodes.

Did you notice that this episode was directed by Erin Richards (Barbara)?
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Old 03-09-2019, 03:29 PM
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Did you notice that this episode was directed by Erin Richards (Barbara)?
I did not notice that.
Furthermore, it was written by Ben McKenzie (Jim).
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Old 03-09-2019, 08:20 PM
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Furthermore, it was written by Ben McKenzie (Jim).
I missed that credit.
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Old 03-09-2019, 08:50 PM
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I got a huge laugh at Zsasz's goofy "Ivy Pepper Zsasz" line in the most recent episode. Also, I was pleased to see Scarface in the previous episode.
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Old 03-09-2019, 08:54 PM
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For a minute, I thought I'd missed an episode. Jim and Lee start making out at the end of last episode, and then this week they're suddenly talking about raising his kid together? And then by the end of the hour they're married?? That sure happened fast, and several oceans worth of water would have to pass under the bridge for her to get back to that point, in my opinion. Ah well, I guess we just have to go with it.

My prediction is that Barbara will die in childbirth or shortly thereafter, it'll be a girl, and Jim and Lee will name her Barbara.
A lot of time passed between this episode and the last, which is why it felt jarring. But based on the size of barbara's baby bump, I'd say maybe four of five months passed by between the two episodes. and this episode itself spanned several months before the marriage.

Loved lovesick Szasz. He's always great comedy relief. But damned, those Gotham cops are useless. The guy made himself a giant target, and not a single person could hit him from about 20-40 rt away. Jeez.
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Old 03-09-2019, 08:57 PM
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Oh, that reminds me of one of my big complaints about this season...

They keep introducing characters from the comics, then killing them off in the same episode...

They bring in Scarface and turn ArnoldArthur into the Ventriloquist...just in time to kill him off. They bring in Magpie and kill her off. They bring in Jane Doe (as a meta!) and kill her off...
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Old 03-09-2019, 09:10 PM
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Oh, that reminds me of one of my big complaints about this season...

They keep introducing characters from the comics, then killing them off in the same episode...

They bring in Scarface and turn ArnoldArthur into the Ventriloquist...just in time to kill him off. They bring in Magpie and kill her off. They bring in Jane Doe (as a meta!) and kill her off...
Don't forget Solomon Grundy. Wouldn't it have been great to have him lurking around the city, killing off random Gothamites without regard to their faction? Such a missed opportunity.
  #21  
Old 04-27-2019, 07:00 AM
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Well, the series is over, with a final episode "10 years later" (well, the very beginning showed young Bruce Wayne travelling to Nanda Parbat?)
Selina is played Lili Simmons (Carmen Bicondova thought it was better that way), Gordon has a mustache for a bit (tribute to the comic), and Barbara SR is a redhead.
Batman is mostly seen from the distance, though as planned was the last frame of the show.

Brian
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Old 04-27-2019, 07:27 AM
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Well, the series is over, with a final episode "10 years later" (well, the very beginning showed young Bruce Wayne travelling to Nanda Parbat?)
Selina is played Lili Simmons (Carmen Bicondova thought it was better that way), Gordon has a mustache for a bit (tribute to the comic), and Barbara SR is a redhead.
Batman is mostly seen from the distance, though as planned was the last frame of the show.

Brian
In the comic "Dark Knight Returns," Joker is revived after years of being comatose by a news report that Batman is back - in this episode of Gotham, Jeremiah is revived by news that Bruce Wayne is back in town.
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Old 04-27-2019, 08:33 AM
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This final season was a bit of a hot mess. What happened to all the Intergang warfare? What happened to the insinuation that Lee had become a sleeper agent like Nygma? Bruce just up and left to go to Nanda Parbat without much warning or foreshadowing. Speaking of foreshadowing, there wasn't much about bats except for that one episode.

The final episode was also a hot mess, more fan service than anything else. I liked that we got to see young Barbara Gordon. I also liked that Alfred and Lucius were both in on the whole Batman schtick right from the start. Selena seemed to be aware of it as well.

There's scuttlebutt that there may be a Catwoman spinoff, set during the decade that Bruce was away.
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Old 04-27-2019, 08:38 AM
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This final season was a bit of a hot mess. What happened to all the Intergang warfare? What happened to the insinuation that Lee had become a sleeper agent like Nygma?
Lee was an agent (who tried to kill Gordon), but was freed the same way Nygma was (by an electric shock).

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There's scuttlebutt that there may be a Catwoman spinoff, set during the decade that Bruce was away.
And there was an ad during the program for an Alfred/Thomas Wayne prequel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennyworth_(TV_series)
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Old 04-27-2019, 10:01 AM
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Lee was an agent (who tried to kill Gordon), but was freed the same way Nygma was (by an electric shock).
Huh? When was this? I must have missed am episode.
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Old 04-27-2019, 10:08 AM
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Huh? When was this? I must have missed am episode.
Episode 6 of this season "Thirteen Stitches"

https://showsnob.com/2019/02/22/goth...des-6-7-recap/


"Over at the GCPD, a distressed Lee is trying to figure out why she can’t remember anything from the past three months. Jim doesn’t have answers for her… until she suddenly tries to kill him. Yep, she’s the other agent. She was also “treated” by Strange after she stabbed Ed and Ed stabbed her."
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Old 04-27-2019, 11:40 AM
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There's scuttlebutt that there may be a Catwoman spinoff, set during the decade that Bruce was away.
Cool, IMHO she was the standout character. And the actress is destined for bigger things.
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Old 04-28-2019, 06:38 PM
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When all is said and done...I liked it for what it was. There were plenty of colorful characters, the action was intense, there were plenty of genuinely shocking moments, and I feel that this show really did its best to answer some of the lingering questions about the franchise (most notably "Why is James Gordon willing to turn a blind eye to an unhinged vigilante?") Lots of forced or hammy moments, but every superhero property is like that.

If there's one way I was unsatisfied, it was all the characters that never got a proper sendoff. I already mentioned Nathaniel Barnes, of course; now you can add Firefly, Freeze, Jervis Tetch, Jonathan Crane, Ivy Pepper, Hugo Strange, and Victor Zsasz. (What the heck does Zsasz do now that all his meal tickets have either died or dropped him like a bad habit?) Heck, I wouldn't have mind seeing Headhunter or that girl Tabitha Galavan rescued.

But like any other big city, there's another story to be told. I'm not super-hyped about the upcoming Alfred Pennyworth spinoff...there's only so far you can delve into the past before it just gets, well, old...but the Catwoman show looks like it could be a hit. What can I say, Camren...

(Quick aside: Camren. Camren. Camren. Not Carmen. Cam-ren. Can't believe I messed it up for that long. And I see that I'm not the only one.)

...Bicondova is never not fun to watch.

What the heck, "Gotham city without a Batman and why that's a bad thing" just plain worked. A cheerful 7/10.

One final question: Did Fox really sign up the Christian Bale to deliver a few lines and put on the suit for a few seconds? That definitely didn't sound like David Mazouz (or Ben Affleck), but I don't recall any credit given.

Last edited by DKW; 04-28-2019 at 06:39 PM.
  #29  
Old 04-28-2019, 08:38 PM
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I thought it was a reasonable end to an uneven series. We enjoyed it all the way through, but you certainly had to overlook a lot of silliness to do so. Still it was a reasonably fun ride.

I thought the standout characters of the series were Alfred, The Riddler and The Penguin. Those three actors really managed to pull off their roles spectacularly. Also, the guy who played The Joker did a great job.

I think this series had the best Alfred of any Batman property I've seen. If there is a 'Pennyworth' series I'd love to see the same actor in it, but if it's an early prequel I suppose it can't be.
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Old 05-02-2019, 05:13 PM
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To me, the penultimate episode felt like a finale, and would have made a better one. I could have done entirely without the "10 Years Later" events, which were essentially a series of familiar Batman imagery, so that we can all squeal, "Oh look, the Penguin has a top hat and monocle now!" and "Oh look, that's the Bat-signal!" There was nothing fresh or surprising about any of it. Not that it wasn't kind of fun, just completely unnecessary.

And what a slap in the face to Camren Bicondova, to have been with the show since the pilot, only to be replaced in the final episode. Surely they could have used makeup or CGI to make her look older.

Speaking of which, they could have bothered to age some of the other characters. Harvey especially. He hasn't changed his clothes or hair one bit in ten years!

Last edited by Wheelz; 05-02-2019 at 05:18 PM.
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Old 05-02-2019, 11:19 PM
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And what a slap in the face to Camren Bicondova, to have been with the show since the pilot, only to be replaced in the final episode. Surely they could have used makeup or CGI to make her look older.
Camden herself made the decision to give up the mantle of Selina Kyle to another actress.
https://deadline.com/2019/04/gotham-...ox-1202599259/
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Old 05-03-2019, 11:40 AM
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Camden herself made the decision to give up the mantle of Selina Kyle to another actress.
https://deadline.com/2019/04/gotham-...ox-1202599259/
That is quite interesting. Good for her, I suppose, for putting the character first. I still think she could have pulled it off, but of course she didn't ask me.
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Old 05-19-2019, 07:10 PM
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Finally finished, and I'd call it a satisfying finale. I think the actors who played Riddler and Penguin both grew immensely during the series, more than any of the others. While I don't necessarily think the actors needed a send-off, I would have liked some foreshadowing of more Batman villains, though I understand how it might have been difficult to fit into the time.
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Old 05-23-2019, 12:36 AM
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I finished the season a couple of days ago. I didn't really care for much of this last season, or the previous. I don't like how they kept bringing back Jerome/Jeremiah.

So... Barbara didn't have to face any kind of justice at all? Wasn't she a murderous criminal before the time jump? She became a mom, so all is forgiven?
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