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  #51  
Old 05-16-2018, 09:37 PM
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Systemic racism exists in government. Harmless generalized preferences among groups for similar looking people also exist, but I would not call that systemic racism.

Besides the serious problem of government racism, the claims often point to an economic systemic racism.

If systemic racism existed in today’s labor markets, there would be a killing to be made employing “minorities” for higher than the racists, but less than their marginal revenue product. Do you have evidence that entrepreneurs are taking advantage of this disparity? Or are the capitalists more racist than slaveowners who had no problem making money off the labor of “black” Americans?

Last edited by WillFarnaby; 05-16-2018 at 09:38 PM.
  #52  
Old 05-16-2018, 10:04 PM
Tim@T-Bonham.net Tim@T-Bonham.net is offline
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Systemic racism exists in government.
This is simply your assertion.
Thje OP asked for "Data, facts...". Do you have some specific example(s) of this that we can discuss?
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Old 05-17-2018, 02:13 AM
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  #54  
Old 05-17-2018, 03:50 AM
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I'm not convinced by the evidence I've seen so far for "institutional" racial bias. Most of the evidence is based on poorer outcomes for minorities, but I seldom see much effort made to demonstrate a link between the poor outcomes and institutional racial bias. The bias is just assumed, even when credible alternate explanations suggest themselves.

One explanation that doesn't suggest itself is direct discrimination, particularly in government institutions. The repeal of Jim Crow, the Civil Rights Act, and the numerous anti-discrimination laws and measures adopted since must count for something, right? It is still actually illegal to discriminate based on race, last I checked, and I don't see any lack of people who are willing to uncover lingering racial bias in our institutions and use the legal system to remedy the problem.

I'm sure that racial bias still lurks in some "institutions", but consider how much work has to be accomplished before a conclusion can be drawn that institutional racial bias is still a "significant force" in American society. How many institutions have to be riddled with racists before we decide that all society is tainted? If one police force, government agency, school district, media outlet, or company is revealed to still be institutionally biased, is it reasonable to then assume that all, or even the next one over, must be? As I said above, many of the claims of institutional racism that i see are unconvincing, and even when a genuine racist policy or nest of individual racists is discovered, it takes more than that to convince me that institutional racial bias is a significant force affecting all of society.

There might be evidence for systemic racial bias, on the other hand, that I could be convinced by. I've done no research, but it seems credible to me that the reason minorities are underemployed and underrepresented in higher learning is not that they are actively selected against by institutions, but that there is a lack of qualified minority candidates for the jobs and colleges. Similarly, the reason minorities are over-represented in crime statistics and incarceration is not institutional bias, but that too many of them are disaffected and poorly prepared, and thus more inclined to fall into crime and poverty. The reasons for these trends may or may not be systemic racism. Maybe minorities just suffer from being part of social networks that do not offer the kinds of opportunities and support that white social networks do. In short, whites are more likely to be offered rich opportunities by their friends and family than are minorities, because whites are already established. Have we reached systemic racism yet?, Not necessarily, since you can't fault whites for favoring their friends and family, or expect them to just dismantle their social and economic networks.

But then you have to drill down to the next level and ask why minority opportunities are so limited and their communities so lacking in their own internal resources compared to whites. I think the deeper you drill down, the more chance that you might uncover something that can be called either systemic racism, a legacy of historic racism, or both.

I don't know that systemic racism exists right now, or to what extent, or what effects it has, but that drilling-down process is the kind of evidence that might convince me.
  #55  
Old 05-17-2018, 06:18 AM
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Originally Posted by t-bonham@scc.net View Post
This is simply your assertion.
Thje OP asked for "Data, facts...". Do you have some specific example(s) of this that we can discuss?


The government kills, kidnaps, and harasses non-“whites” at a higher rate than “whites”. If you need cites for this, come out from under the rock.

Korean War
Vietnam War
Mass incarceration
Iraqi Sanctions
Iraq Wars
Black codes
Japanese internment
War in Yemen
Libyan intervention
Jim Crow
War in Afghanistan
Drone wars
Stop and Frisk
Various police actions and coups in South America
Native American genocide
Fugitive slave law
Harassment of black political leaders

Last edited by WillFarnaby; 05-17-2018 at 06:19 AM.
  #56  
Old 05-17-2018, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
The government kills, kidnaps, and harasses non-“whites” at a higher rate than “whites”. If you need cites for this, come out from under the rock.

Korean War
Vietnam War
Mass incarceration
Iraqi Sanctions
Iraq Wars
Black codes
Japanese internment
War in Yemen
Libyan intervention
Jim Crow
War in Afghanistan
Drone wars
Stop and Frisk
Various police actions and coups in South America
Native American genocide
Fugitive slave law
Harassment of black political leaders
Nearly all of these took place in foreign nations, or a long time ago. I think the OP means current-day things in America.
  #57  
Old 05-17-2018, 10:36 AM
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Nearly all of these took place in foreign nations, or a long time ago. I think the OP means current-day things in America.
Mass incarceration not good enough for you?

How about affirmative action?

Mass deportation?

I clearly stated that the US government is systematically racist. The point that their victims are on “foreign” soil is rather pedantic.

Last edited by WillFarnaby; 05-17-2018 at 10:38 AM.
  #58  
Old 05-17-2018, 10:43 AM
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*Systematically and systemically
  #59  
Old 05-17-2018, 10:51 AM
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How about affirmative action?
Not sure what you mean by this. Affirmative action specifically benefits black and Hispanic students, so it is a counter-example to what you seem to be arguing - unless you mean that affirmative action discriminates against Asians (which it does,) so if by that, you mean that it is a racist policy, then yes, it is.

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Mass deportation?
When the majority of illegal immigrants coming into the nation are Hispanic, it makes sense that the majority of deportees would be Hispanic. But I wouldn't be surprised if brown-skinned illegal immigrants are deported at a higher % rate than light-skinned illegal immigrants.
  #60  
Old 05-17-2018, 10:55 AM
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This is a good example of what I categorized as "collateral racism" - it might result in disparate outcomes for different races, but it may or may not be driven by any racist thought. The problem is it would be very difficult, if not impossible, for anyone to prove any racist intent behind such policies.

I think this is one of the fundamental disconnects between how different people view racism - for some, it is the intent that determines if something is racist, while for others, it is the outcome.
Outcome determining racism is incoherent. For example is it racist to refuse to hire convicted sex offenders to babysit your kids? If neutral rules that affect races differently are racist then that is a racist rule.
  #61  
Old 05-17-2018, 12:05 PM
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How about affirmative action?
That's a good point, and I sit corrected. Affirmative action, insofar as it is incorporated into the law (for the government) or institutional policy (for that institution) is an example of institutional racism.

Not sure I agree with your other examples, but on this one, good call.

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  #62  
Old 05-17-2018, 12:38 PM
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Outcome determining racism is incoherent. For example is it racist to refuse to hire convicted sex offenders to babysit your kids? If neutral rules that affect races differently are racist then that is a racist rule.
No, but it would be racist to refuse to hire a black person to babysit your kids, because there are black people out there that are sex offenders.
  #63  
Old 05-17-2018, 04:08 PM
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No, but it would be racist to refuse to hire a black person to babysit your kids, because there are black people out there that are sex offenders.
So even though black men would be rejected at twice the rate of white men for the job, it would not be racist?
Would it be evidence of systemic racism or bias?
  #64  
Old 05-17-2018, 04:27 PM
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I think black people getting rejected for jobs because they are black is because whoever is in charge of hiring (an individual) is biased, either conscious or unconcious.

Do I think a lot of individual racism could be traced back to blatant institutional racism of the past? Yeah probably. I also think that every generation is, on average, less "racist" by modern standards, than the last. I do not think that racism will every truly be totally gone (I think that's impossible due to inherent tribalism of humans), but I do think that it will diminish over time naturally and the statistics will probably bear that out.
  #65  
Old 05-17-2018, 04:52 PM
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So even though black men would be rejected at twice the rate of white men for the job, it would not be racist?
Would it be evidence of systemic racism or bias?
Why would black men be rejected at twice the rate of white men?
  #66  
Old 05-17-2018, 05:02 PM
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Why would black men be rejected at twice the rate of white men?
Higher rates of criminal conviction, lower rates of educational achievement, lower numbers who meet the requirements - any number of reasons. It depends on the job.

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  #67  
Old 05-17-2018, 06:44 PM
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Higher rates of criminal conviction, lower rates of educational achievement, lower numbers who meet the requirements - any number of reasons. It depends on the job.

Regards,
Shodan
How would those explain the results of resume and in person audits?

http://www.pnas.org/content/114/41/10870.full
  #68  
Old 05-17-2018, 09:07 PM
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Why would black men be rejected at twice the rate of white men?
Because you reject all sex offenders from the babysitting posts, black men are sex offenders at twice the rate white men are.
  #69  
Old 05-18-2018, 11:38 AM
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Because you reject all sex offenders from the babysitting posts, black men are sex offenders at twice the rate white men are.
And what would that have to do with employment?

If I post an ad for a babysitter, and part of that ad says "No sex offenders", then I shouldn't be getting any sex offenders at all.

If I then assume that, because (according to you, which I will accept for now with no cite) black men are sex offenders at twice the rate, I use that to justify rejecting black men, then that would be racist.

I'm not entirely sure where you are losing me here. I consider this to be extremely straightforward. It's not even nuanced. You don't discriminate against people because of what other people who look like them do. If you do, that's racist, no matter how you try to justify it.
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Old 05-18-2018, 02:53 PM
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The beginnings of the drug war are unmistakably racist in the same way affirmative action is today. Those laws are no longer supported using that rhetoric, but the outcome is no different. That is why I consider mass incarceration to be an example of systemic racism.
  #71  
Old 05-18-2018, 03:06 PM
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It's not even nuanced. You don't discriminate against people because of what other people who look like them do. If you do, that's racist, no matter how you try to justify it.
Maybe not, but a helluva lot of people will avoid areas that have a lot of people who don't look like them. Especially at night. Yes, even self-proclaimed liberals. Is that racism, or risk assessment?
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Old 05-18-2018, 03:09 PM
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Maybe not, but a helluva lot of people will avoid areas that have a lot of people who don't look like them. Especially at night. Yes, even self-proclaimed liberals. Is that racism, or risk assessment?
Racism.
  #73  
Old 05-18-2018, 03:28 PM
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Maybe not, but a helluva lot of people will avoid areas that have a lot of people who don't look like them. Especially at night. Yes, even self-proclaimed liberals. Is that racism, or risk assessment?
- avoiding an area because it has a lot of people that don't look like you is racism

- avoiding an area because its high poverty and high crime is risk assessment

People often conflate the two, or think the first is ok because the second is ok.
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  #74  
Old 05-18-2018, 03:43 PM
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And what would that have to do with employment?

If I post an ad for a babysitter, and part of that ad says "No sex offenders", then I shouldn't be getting any sex offenders at all.

If I then assume that, because (according to you, which I will accept for now with no cite) black men are sex offenders at twice the rate, I use that to justify rejecting black men, then that would be racist.

I'm not entirely sure where you are losing me here. I consider this to be extremely straightforward. It's not even nuanced. You don't discriminate against people because of what other people who look like them do. If you do, that's racist, no matter how you try to justify it.
If you rejected all sex offenders then assuming similar interest levels there would be significantly more white men employed in the babysitting industry. Some people would see this as prima facia evidence of systemic bias against black men in the babysitting industry. Yet this would be achieved with no racial bias and if racism were magically erased from the heart of every person in the country it would persist.

This is an example of why different outcomes being produced with no bias and a reason why it is not enough to point to disparate outcomes to prove systemic bias. It also shows a situation where fighting phantasms such as systemic bias are a waste of time.
  #75  
Old 05-18-2018, 03:59 PM
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The beginnings of the drug war are unmistakably racist in the same way affirmative action is today. Those laws are no longer supported using that rhetoric, but the outcome is no different. That is why I consider mass incarceration to be an example of systemic racism.
Mass incarceration is a different issue than the drug war. If you released every person in jail for a drug offense there would still be 80% of the prisoners left and the demographics would not be any different.
  #76  
Old 05-18-2018, 04:10 PM
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- avoiding an area because it has a lot of people that don't look like you is racism

- avoiding an area because its high poverty and high crime is risk assessment

People often conflate the two, or think the first is ok because the second is ok.
Yes, but let's say you didn't have the luxury of on-demand crime statistics. If you're lost at night, and find yourself in a place with a lot of black people, and perhaps maybe some run down buildings, would you be wrong to think that getting out of there was a good idea?
  #77  
Old 05-18-2018, 04:13 PM
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If you rejected all sex offenders then assuming similar interest levels there would be significantly more white men employed in the babysitting industry. Some people would see this as prima facia evidence of systemic bias against black men in the babysitting industry. Yet this would be achieved with no racial bias and if racism were magically erased from the heart of every person in the country it would persist.
"Some people"? Who? I'm not sure I agree with your premise. I'm feeling more than a little straw here.

Now, there is also the fact that I have taken as given that your statement that black men commit sex offenses at twice the rate of white men without checking of asking for a cite. I can accept that the number of black men convicted for sex offenses is twice that of white men, but I'm not sure if that actually translates into that they commit it twice as often. Just as with many crimes, white people tend to get away with them, while black men don't.

So, at this point, we are looking at possible racial bias in the justice system that is causing these disparate outcomes.

Even past that, even if black and white are prosecuted at the same proportional rate as the commision of the crime (which I do not really believe), you still have the fact that poverty increases crime, and black men are more likely to be impoverished due to both current and historical racism.

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This is an example of why different outcomes being produced with no bias and a reason why it is not enough to point to disparate outcomes to prove systemic bias.
Right, but your logic is the logic that racists use to justify their racism against individuals. Lets say that the genetic racists are right, and being black makes you twice as likely to commit sexual offenses (I thoroughly disagree with this position), does that mean that that you should treat an individual black man with more suspicion than you would a white man?

But, there is a little straw there as well. We don't look at outcomes, we look at opportunities. And there are definitely more opportunities granted to the white straight man than to other demographics.
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It also shows a situation where fighting phantasms such as systemic bias are a waste of time.
Are you saying that there are no victims of systemic bias, or that fighting for them is a waste of time?
  #78  
Old 05-18-2018, 04:13 PM
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Yes, but let's say you didn't have the luxury of on-demand crime statistics. If you're lost at night, and find yourself in a place with a lot of black people, and perhaps maybe some run down buildings, would you be wrong to think that getting out of there was a good idea?
Depends. Is it because of the black people or because of the run down buildings?

There are poor white areas too. Correlating black people with crime is wrong. Poverty and crime is a vastly higher correlation. How would you feel if people made such snap judgments about you just because of how you look?

If you see black people and your first reaction is to be scared and hurry out of there, you might just be a racist.
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  #79  
Old 05-18-2018, 04:16 PM
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Yes, but let's say you didn't have the luxury of on-demand crime statistics. If you're lost at night, and find yourself in a place with a lot of black people, and perhaps maybe some run down buildings, would you be wrong to think that getting out of there was a good idea?
Are you talking about poverty, or are you talking about black people?

We can break this down into two different questions.

If you are a black person, and you find yourself in a place with a lot of white people, would you be wrong to think that getting out of there was a good idea?

If you are a person, and you find yourself in a place with some run down buildings, would you be wrong to think that getting out of there was a good idea?
  #80  
Old 05-18-2018, 04:25 PM
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"Some people"? Who? I'm not sure I agree with your premise. I'm feeling more than a little straw here.

Are you saying that there are no victims of systemic bias, or that fighting for them is a waste of time?
I think they are saying that if you have a "No Sex Offender" policy, and black people are twice as likely to be sex offenders, then your policy is going to affect more black people than white people. And that makes it a racist policy if you are only looking at outcomes.
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Old 05-18-2018, 04:28 PM
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Depends. Is it because of the black people or because of the run down buildings?

There are poor white areas too. Correlating black people with crime is wrong. Poverty and crime is a vastly higher correlation. How would you feel if people made such snap judgments about you just because of how you look?

If you see black people and your first reaction is to be scared and hurry out of there, you might just be a racist.
Yeah, I'm not even talking about the race of the stranger. Jesse Jackson said he feels relief when someone's walking behind him and it turns out to be a white person. I don't think that's an isolated case. Maybe that's because of an possibly incorrect belief that you are more likely to be victimized by a random black person than a random white person, but there definitely seems to be judgement, and not even snap judgement.
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Old 05-18-2018, 04:30 PM
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So maybe we should be aware of that and try to be better? It's human to have reactions to things, but we should try to think about our reactions and be self aware of them in case we are being unfair.
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Old 05-18-2018, 04:31 PM
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I think they are saying that if you have a "No Sex Offender" policy, and black people are twice as likely to be sex offenders, then your policy is going to affect more black people than white people. And that makes it a racist policy if you are only looking at outcomes.
I disagree with that.

It is not a racist policy, but, if you do look at the outcomes, you can still see how systemic bias is affecting minorities, even if it is not the fault of a particular individual or policy.

To take an extreme example, if we go before Brown vs Board of education, if I have a policy that says that you must have certain grades and classes on your transcripts, and due to the difference in education given to black and white students, many more white students achieve those grades in those classes, it is not my policy that is racist, but my policy is exposing systemic racism.
  #84  
Old 05-18-2018, 04:34 PM
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To take an extreme example, if we go before Brown vs Board of education, if I have a policy that says that you must have certain grades and classes on your transcripts, and due to the difference in education given to black and white students, many more white students achieve those grades in those classes, it is not my policy that is racist, but my policy is exposing systemic racism.
Sure, but would you change your policy to overcome the systemic racism?
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Old 05-18-2018, 04:38 PM
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Yeah, I'm not even talking about the race of the stranger. Jesse Jackson said he feels relief when someone's walking behind him and it turns out to be a white person. I don't think that's an isolated case. Maybe that's because of an possibly incorrect belief that you are more likely to be victimized by a random black person than a random white person, but there definitely seems to be judgement, and not even snap judgement.
And Jesse Jackson was saying that it was a racist thought to have. He was admitting that he even feels racial bias, even when there is no reason for it. He was opening the door for others to be able to express similar sentiments and confront their racial biases, not giving them permission to be racists.
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Old 05-18-2018, 04:42 PM
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Sure, but would you change your policy to overcome the systemic racism?
Depends on the reason for my policy.

If I have a policy that you need to be able to write computer code, because I am hiring a computer programmer to do work for me, then whether or not the policy ends up having a disparate racial outcome, I need people that can code.

If I have a policy that requires "Squirrel hunting and basting 101: The miracles of mayonnaise" as a class, and I know that it is a class that is only offered at white schools, then yes, I would change my policy to better overcome that systemic racism.
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Old 05-21-2018, 12:07 PM
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I just wanted to add to this thread before it leaves that while I dont get into statistics, out and facts I will listen to.

For example. I never realized old color film like Kodachrome wasnt designed to acurately photograph dark brown and black skin. I do remember taking pictures of my black friends and being dissapointed whenit made them look much darker than they were. Watch this video.

Also certain facial recognition programs and systems dont pick up black faces easily.

Finally I once read that a certain computer program designed to search a persons hard drive for pornography is based on searching for certain pixel color patterns. However thos are geared to white skin tones.
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Old 05-21-2018, 06:28 PM
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Finally I once read that a certain computer program designed to search a persons hard drive for pornography is based on searching for certain pixel color patterns. However thos are geared to white skin tones.
From here, perhaps also relevant:

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Back in 2015, software engineer Jacky Alciné pointed out that the image recognition algorithms in Google Photos were classifying his black friends as “gorillas.” Google said it was “appalled” at the mistake, apologized to Alciné, and promised to fix the problem. But, as a new report from Wired shows, nearly three years on and Google hasn’t really fixed anything. The company has simply blocked its image recognition algorithms from identifying gorillas altogether — preferring, presumably, to limit the service rather than risk another miscategorization.
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Old 05-22-2018, 08:22 AM
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A barber once told me the reason he didnt cut black hair was he didnt feel trained in black hair. Specifically the tighter curls. It wasnt taught in his barber school.

But then I dont know how black barbers are taught either. They might not know how to cut straight hair.
  #90  
Old 05-22-2018, 08:27 AM
Urbanredneck Urbanredneck is offline
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Another issue: Swimming

Growing up I guess I took it for granted all kids my age learned to swim but later I found out many black kids dont care to swim because inner city areas dont have good pools or many lightly dark skin tones dont get too much sun because that makes them even darker.

I watched a video of one youth camp designed to help kids break down color and racial barriers that broke down at swim time when most of the black kids didnt swim much and stayed in the shallow end of the pool while the white kids dived off the diving board and swam in the deep end.
  #91  
Old 05-22-2018, 09:48 AM
Ashtura Ashtura is offline
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Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
And Jesse Jackson was saying that it was a racist thought to have. He was admitting that he even feels racial bias, even when there is no reason for it. He was opening the door for others to be able to express similar sentiments and confront their racial biases, not giving them permission to be racists.
I don't recall him saying it was a racist thought, nor do I recall him saying he didn't have a good reason to think that. He said it pains him to think that, not that it was unjustified. Has he clarified that he thinks you are just as likely to be victimized by whites or are you reading between the lines?

Last edited by Ashtura; 05-22-2018 at 09:50 AM.
  #92  
Old 05-22-2018, 11:32 AM
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puddleglum puddleglum is offline
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"Some people"? Who? I'm not sure I agree with your premise. I'm feeling more than a little straw here.
There is no straw man. Read up on Disparate Impact law. For an example look at EEOC vs Freeman where checking a potential employee's credit was deemed illegal by the EEOC but was ruled against in court.
Quote:
Now, there is also the fact that I have taken as given that your statement that black men commit sex offenses at twice the rate of white men without checking of asking for a cite. I can accept that the number of black men convicted for sex offenses is twice that of white men, but I'm not sure if that actually translates into that they commit it twice as often. Just as with many crimes, white people tend to get away with them, while black men don't.
Here is an article on the study that showed black men are twice as likely to be registered sex offenders.
Quote:
So, at this point, we are looking at possible racial bias in the justice system that is causing these disparate outcomes.

Even past that, even if black and white are prosecuted at the same proportional rate as the commision of the crime (which I do not really believe), you still have the fact that poverty increases crime, and black men are more likely to be impoverished due to both current and historical racism.
Victim surveys show that the races are prosecuted and arrested at the same rate that they commit crime. The relationship between crime and poverty is not straightforward as you indicate. For example, hispanics have a poverty rate close to black americans but have a much lower crime rate.
Quote:

Right, but your logic is the logic that racists use to justify their racism against individuals. Lets say that the genetic racists are right, and being black makes you twice as likely to commit sexual offenses (I thoroughly disagree with this position), does that mean that that you should treat an individual black man with more suspicion than you would a white man?
Only if that is the only thing you know about him. Everyone should be treated as an individual and not a representative of their race.
Quote:
But, there is a little straw there as well. We don't look at outcomes, we look at opportunities. And there are definitely more opportunities granted to the white straight man than to other demographics.
How do you know this?
Quote:

Are you saying that there are no victims of systemic bias, or that fighting for them is a waste of time?
I'm saying that systemic bias is not real and that fighting it is therefore a waste of time.
  #93  
Old 05-22-2018, 12:15 PM
Hellestal Hellestal is offline
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Originally Posted by puddleglum View Post
Mass incarceration is a different issue than the drug war. If you released every person in jail for a drug offense there would still be 80% of the prisoners left and the demographics would not be any different.
That doesn't directly follow.

The sellers of two extremely popular drugs -- nicotine and tobacco -- are not especially violent. Looking at drug offenses in isolation does not tell us how much the violence is caused by the criminalization of drugs, which would not exist in different circumstances.

And even if the demographics were exactly the same after a genuine criminal justice reform, that does not negate the possibility of institutional racism. One reason why reform is so difficult might be general indifference, owing to the demographics of the criminal population. People might be more tolerant of injustice if it is perceived to be against Them rather than Us.
  #94  
Old 05-22-2018, 01:08 PM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is offline
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There is no straw man. Read up on Disparate Impact law. For an example look at EEOC vs Freeman where checking a potential employee's credit was deemed illegal by the EEOC but was ruled against in court.
Those are completely different from sexual assault. You were talking about sex offenders. Can you let me know in what state, at least, you plan on stopping with the goal posts?

Disparate impact is things like preferentially hiring from certain neighborhoods, or from applicant pools that are advertised in specific areas. You aren't really saying that you are hiring preferentially one race over another, but the application of what you are doing does.

That you would then relate that to rejecting candidates for being convicted of sexual offenses is completely unrelated.

Quote:
Here is an article on the study that showed black men are twice as likely to be registered sex offenders.
Agrees with what I just said. Convicted.
Quote:
Victim surveys show that the races are prosecuted and arrested at the same rate that they commit crime.
It says nothing of the sort in the abstract, and I am not going to pay for access to try to hunt down what you are trying to cite. Can you please quote the part that backs this claim?
Quote:
The relationship between crime and poverty is not straightforward as you indicate. For example, hispanics have a poverty rate close to black americans but have a much lower crime rate.
I did not say it was straightforward, that's just your unfounded presumptiveness again, but they are certainly related. I don't pretend that the problems are simple, nor do I think the solutions are simple either. You do get quite a bit of crime in wealthier neighborhoods too, but it usually goes uncaught and unpunished. Everything from drug use, to drug sales, to domestic violence and child abuse, to embezzling and fraud goes on in those neighborhoods.
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Only if that is the only thing you know about him. Everyone should be treated as an individual and not a representative of their race.
So, if the only thing you know about someone is the color of their skin, then you should use that as a measure of how suspicious you are of them? That is pretty much the basic definition of racism.

Interestingly, I have found myself realizing that in certain situations, I judge a bit on an inverse racism scale. When I go to the bank, I find that the minorities overall are much better at their jobs than the white people. I see this as because they have to be better than the white people to just get in the door. But, seriously, if I am dealing with a white person at a bank, they are a spectrum between entirely incompetent to excellent. When I deal with a minority, they are on a spectrum from extremely competent to excellent.

When people are more like us, we overlook their flaws. When people are less like us, we see their flaws as defining them.
Quote:
How do you know this?
I'm white. I'm very aware of the opportunities that are granted to me due to the color of my skin. I am very aware of the better treatment that I receive pretty much everywhere I go.
Quote:
I'm saying that systemic bias is not real and that fighting it is therefore a waste of time.
I'm saying that you are wrong and I would hope that your statement comes out of naivety and ignorance, but I know that it doesn't.
  #95  
Old 05-22-2018, 02:16 PM
Shodan Shodan is offline
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Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
You do get quite a bit of crime in wealthier neighborhoods too, but it usually goes uncaught and unpunished. Everything from drug use, to drug sales, to domestic violence and child abuse, to embezzling and fraud goes on in those neighborhoods.
That's kind of unprovable and unfalsifiable - if it is uncaught and unpunished, how do you know what the crime rates are?
Quote:
It says nothing of the sort in the abstract, and I am not going to pay for access to try to hunt down what you are trying to cite. Can you please quote the part that backs this claim?
You don't have to pay - the Crime Victimization surveys are available for free. If you look, for instance, at the figures for rape and sexual assault, you see that the percentage of whites raping blacks is estimated at 0%, because there were less than ten cases in the survey sample. Cite - pdf.

Therefore, the notion (for instance) that there are large numbers of whites getting away with raping blacks is not backed up by the data. And that reinforces what is discovered from other sources like the Uniform Crime Report. Obviously these are different data sources with different goals and methodologies, but the point is that the proportions of the different races are not radically different between the two - people report crimes committed against them by the different racial groups in roughly the same proportion that the different groups are arrested or convicted of those crimes.
Quote:
So, if the only thing you know about someone is the color of their skin, then you should use that as a measure of how suspicious you are of them? That is pretty much the basic definition of racism.

Interestingly, I have found myself realizing that in certain situations, I judge a bit on an inverse racism scale. When I go to the bank, I find that the minorities overall are much better at their jobs than the white people.
Interesting that you begin by saying this is racism, and then go on to do the same thing yourself.

Regards,
Shodan
  #96  
Old 05-22-2018, 04:11 PM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is offline
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That's kind of unprovable and unfalsifiable - if it is uncaught and unpunished, how do you know what the crime rates are?
Because these are the neighborhoods that I live in. These are the neighborhoods in which I see people commiting crimes that if they were in poorer neighborhoods, they would be caught.
Quote:
You don't have to pay - the Crime Victimization surveys are available for free. If you look, for instance, at the figures for rape and sexual assault, you see that the percentage of whites raping blacks is estimated at 0%, because there were less than ten cases in the survey sample. Cite - pdf.
I fail to see how your cherry picked stats back up your insistence that there is no bias in society.
Quote:
Therefore, the notion (for instance) that there are large numbers of whites getting away with raping blacks is not backed up by the data.
Thank you for refuting a point that I did not make.
Quote:
Interesting that you begin by saying this is racism, and then go on to do the same thing yourself.
Interesting that you would take that part out of context in order to try to make some sort of point. How do I do the same thing myself, when I state a specific observation that I have experienced? It's not prejudice, as it is not judgement ahead of time. It is observation and judging people based on exactly what they do.

It does say quite a bit that you can't tell the difference between judging someone for how they perform, and judging them based on their skin color.
  #97  
Old 05-22-2018, 04:22 PM
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manson1972 manson1972 is offline
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Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
Interesting that you begin by saying this is racism, and then go on to do the same thing yourself.

Regards,
Shodan
Not really. It would be racism if he saw two new tellers, one white and one black, and then went to the black teller expecting better service than the white teller.
  #98  
Old 05-22-2018, 04:27 PM
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puddleglum puddleglum is offline
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Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
Those are completely different from sexual assault. You were talking about sex offenders. Can you let me know in what state, at least, you plan on stopping with the goal posts?

Disparate impact is things like preferentially hiring from certain neighborhoods, or from applicant pools that are advertised in specific areas. You aren't really saying that you are hiring preferentially one race over another, but the application of what you are doing does.

That you would then relate that to rejecting candidates for being convicted of sexual offenses is completely unrelated.


Agrees with what I just said. Convicted.

It says nothing of the sort in the abstract, and I am not going to pay for access to try to hunt down what you are trying to cite. Can you please quote the part that backs this claim?

I did not say it was straightforward, that's just your unfounded presumptiveness again, but they are certainly related. I don't pretend that the problems are simple, nor do I think the solutions are simple either. You do get quite a bit of crime in wealthier neighborhoods too, but it usually goes uncaught and unpunished. Everything from drug use, to drug sales, to domestic violence and child abuse, to embezzling and fraud goes on in those neighborhoods.

So, if the only thing you know about someone is the color of their skin, then you should use that as a measure of how suspicious you are of them? That is pretty much the basic definition of racism.

Interestingly, I have found myself realizing that in certain situations, I judge a bit on an inverse racism scale. When I go to the bank, I find that the minorities overall are much better at their jobs than the white people. I see this as because they have to be better than the white people to just get in the door. But, seriously, if I am dealing with a white person at a bank, they are a spectrum between entirely incompetent to excellent. When I deal with a minority, they are on a spectrum from extremely competent to excellent.

When people are more like us, we overlook their flaws. When people are less like us, we see their flaws as defining them.

I'm white. I'm very aware of the opportunities that are granted to me due to the color of my skin. I am very aware of the better treatment that I receive pretty much everywhere I go.


I'm saying that you are wrong and I would hope that your statement comes out of naivety and ignorance, but I know that it doesn't.
Filtering by sex offending has a disparate impact, filtering by credit score also has a disparate impact. They are both examples of race neutral policies that could lead to different results for races that have nothing to do with racism and can not be solved by trying to eradicate racism.
The idea that there are huge amounts of crime done by white people going unreported is obviously incorrect. Firstly because victim surveys show very similar patterns to arrest and conviction rates. In the Victimization survey that Shodan linked to Sexual assualt/rape victims identified their attacker as black 32% of the time. According to the FBI
29.1% of people arrested for rape were black. Secondly, since in most crime the victim is the same race as the perpetrator either black people are lying about who is committing crimes against them or white people are vastly under reporting the amount of crime that takes place against them. It is not believable that white people are only reporting half the crimes done to them either to the police or to surveys.
What opportunities are you granted because of your skin color?
  #99  
Old 05-22-2018, 04:40 PM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is offline
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Originally Posted by puddleglum View Post
Filtering by sex offending has a disparate impact, filtering by credit score also has a disparate impact. They are both examples of race neutral policies that could lead to different results for races that have nothing to do with racism and can not be solved by trying to eradicate racism.
Right, but filtering by sex offense is directly related to the job. Filtering by credit score is not.

These are babysitters, not financial managers.
Quote:

The idea that there are huge amounts of crime done by white people going unreported is obviously incorrect. Firstly because victim surveys show very similar patterns to arrest and conviction rates. In the Victimization survey that Shodan linked to Sexual assualt/rape victims identified their attacker as black 32% of the time. According to the FBI
29.1% of people arrested for rape were black. Secondly, since in most crime the victim is the same race as the perpetrator either black people are lying about who is committing crimes against them or white people are vastly under reporting the amount of crime that takes place against them. It is not believable that white people are only reporting half the crimes done to them either to the police or to surveys.
You are looking at that backwards. The numbers would not be skewed by an underreporting of white victims, it would be skewed by an underreporting of black victims.

And, given the general perceived relationship between black people and the police, seems perfectly reasonable.
Quote:

What opportunities are you granted because of your skin color?
This forum is not long enough to list them all.

Do you want examples of personal life, professional life, financial life, business life, or just walking down the street?
  #100  
Old 05-22-2018, 04:40 PM
Shodan Shodan is offline
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Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
Because these are the neighborhoods that I live in. These are the neighborhoods in which I see people commiting crimes that if they were in poorer neighborhoods, they would be caught.
I am afraid I don't this is very authoritative - how do you determine the crimes rates in the other neighborhoods, the ones you don't live in? And why don't these crimes that you think you see show up in the Victimization Surveys?
Quote:
Interesting that you would take that part out of context in order to try to make some sort of point. How do I do the same thing myself, when I state a specific observation that I have experienced? It's not prejudice, as it is not judgement ahead of time. It is observation and judging people based on exactly what they do.
What do you say to someone who claims that black people are less likely to be above average at something? Why is their observation subject to confirmation bias, and yours isn't?

Black people in America, overall, are disproportionately likely to be involved in violent crime. This is backed up by statistics. Why is it wrong to think that, whereas thinking black people make better bank tellers is just something you have observed and should be taken seriously?

Regards,
Shodan
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