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  #51  
Old 05-16-2018, 08:37 PM
WillFarnaby WillFarnaby is offline
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Systemic racism exists in government. Harmless generalized preferences among groups for similar looking people also exist, but I would not call that systemic racism.

Besides the serious problem of government racism, the claims often point to an economic systemic racism.

If systemic racism existed in today’s labor markets, there would be a killing to be made employing “minorities” for higher than the racists, but less than their marginal revenue product. Do you have evidence that entrepreneurs are taking advantage of this disparity? Or are the capitalists more racist than slaveowners who had no problem making money off the labor of “black” Americans?

Last edited by WillFarnaby; 05-16-2018 at 08:38 PM.
  #52  
Old 05-16-2018, 09:04 PM
t-bonham@scc.net t-bonham@scc.net is offline
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Systemic racism exists in government.
This is simply your assertion.
Thje OP asked for "Data, facts...". Do you have some specific example(s) of this that we can discuss?
  #53  
Old 05-17-2018, 01:13 AM
nachtmusick nachtmusick is offline
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nm

Last edited by nachtmusick; 05-17-2018 at 01:14 AM. Reason: hit post when only half done
  #54  
Old 05-17-2018, 02:50 AM
nachtmusick nachtmusick is offline
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I'm not convinced by the evidence I've seen so far for "institutional" racial bias. Most of the evidence is based on poorer outcomes for minorities, but I seldom see much effort made to demonstrate a link between the poor outcomes and institutional racial bias. The bias is just assumed, even when credible alternate explanations suggest themselves.

One explanation that doesn't suggest itself is direct discrimination, particularly in government institutions. The repeal of Jim Crow, the Civil Rights Act, and the numerous anti-discrimination laws and measures adopted since must count for something, right? It is still actually illegal to discriminate based on race, last I checked, and I don't see any lack of people who are willing to uncover lingering racial bias in our institutions and use the legal system to remedy the problem.

I'm sure that racial bias still lurks in some "institutions", but consider how much work has to be accomplished before a conclusion can be drawn that institutional racial bias is still a "significant force" in American society. How many institutions have to be riddled with racists before we decide that all society is tainted? If one police force, government agency, school district, media outlet, or company is revealed to still be institutionally biased, is it reasonable to then assume that all, or even the next one over, must be? As I said above, many of the claims of institutional racism that i see are unconvincing, and even when a genuine racist policy or nest of individual racists is discovered, it takes more than that to convince me that institutional racial bias is a significant force affecting all of society.

There might be evidence for systemic racial bias, on the other hand, that I could be convinced by. I've done no research, but it seems credible to me that the reason minorities are underemployed and underrepresented in higher learning is not that they are actively selected against by institutions, but that there is a lack of qualified minority candidates for the jobs and colleges. Similarly, the reason minorities are over-represented in crime statistics and incarceration is not institutional bias, but that too many of them are disaffected and poorly prepared, and thus more inclined to fall into crime and poverty. The reasons for these trends may or may not be systemic racism. Maybe minorities just suffer from being part of social networks that do not offer the kinds of opportunities and support that white social networks do. In short, whites are more likely to be offered rich opportunities by their friends and family than are minorities, because whites are already established. Have we reached systemic racism yet?, Not necessarily, since you can't fault whites for favoring their friends and family, or expect them to just dismantle their social and economic networks.

But then you have to drill down to the next level and ask why minority opportunities are so limited and their communities so lacking in their own internal resources compared to whites. I think the deeper you drill down, the more chance that you might uncover something that can be called either systemic racism, a legacy of historic racism, or both.

I don't know that systemic racism exists right now, or to what extent, or what effects it has, but that drilling-down process is the kind of evidence that might convince me.
  #55  
Old 05-17-2018, 05:18 AM
WillFarnaby WillFarnaby is offline
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Originally Posted by t-bonham@scc.net View Post
This is simply your assertion.
Thje OP asked for "Data, facts...". Do you have some specific example(s) of this that we can discuss?


The government kills, kidnaps, and harasses non-“whites” at a higher rate than “whites”. If you need cites for this, come out from under the rock.

Korean War
Vietnam War
Mass incarceration
Iraqi Sanctions
Iraq Wars
Black codes
Japanese internment
War in Yemen
Libyan intervention
Jim Crow
War in Afghanistan
Drone wars
Stop and Frisk
Various police actions and coups in South America
Native American genocide
Fugitive slave law
Harassment of black political leaders

Last edited by WillFarnaby; 05-17-2018 at 05:19 AM.
  #56  
Old 05-17-2018, 09:26 AM
Velocity Velocity is online now
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Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
The government kills, kidnaps, and harasses non-“whites” at a higher rate than “whites”. If you need cites for this, come out from under the rock.

Korean War
Vietnam War
Mass incarceration
Iraqi Sanctions
Iraq Wars
Black codes
Japanese internment
War in Yemen
Libyan intervention
Jim Crow
War in Afghanistan
Drone wars
Stop and Frisk
Various police actions and coups in South America
Native American genocide
Fugitive slave law
Harassment of black political leaders
Nearly all of these took place in foreign nations, or a long time ago. I think the OP means current-day things in America.
  #57  
Old 05-17-2018, 09:36 AM
WillFarnaby WillFarnaby is offline
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Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
Nearly all of these took place in foreign nations, or a long time ago. I think the OP means current-day things in America.
Mass incarceration not good enough for you?

How about affirmative action?

Mass deportation?

I clearly stated that the US government is systematically racist. The point that their victims are on “foreign” soil is rather pedantic.

Last edited by WillFarnaby; 05-17-2018 at 09:38 AM.
  #58  
Old 05-17-2018, 09:43 AM
WillFarnaby WillFarnaby is offline
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*Systematically and systemically
  #59  
Old 05-17-2018, 09:51 AM
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How about affirmative action?
Not sure what you mean by this. Affirmative action specifically benefits black and Hispanic students, so it is a counter-example to what you seem to be arguing - unless you mean that affirmative action discriminates against Asians (which it does,) so if by that, you mean that it is a racist policy, then yes, it is.

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Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
Mass deportation?
When the majority of illegal immigrants coming into the nation are Hispanic, it makes sense that the majority of deportees would be Hispanic. But I wouldn't be surprised if brown-skinned illegal immigrants are deported at a higher % rate than light-skinned illegal immigrants.
  #60  
Old 05-17-2018, 09:55 AM
puddleglum puddleglum is offline
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This is a good example of what I categorized as "collateral racism" - it might result in disparate outcomes for different races, but it may or may not be driven by any racist thought. The problem is it would be very difficult, if not impossible, for anyone to prove any racist intent behind such policies.

I think this is one of the fundamental disconnects between how different people view racism - for some, it is the intent that determines if something is racist, while for others, it is the outcome.
Outcome determining racism is incoherent. For example is it racist to refuse to hire convicted sex offenders to babysit your kids? If neutral rules that affect races differently are racist then that is a racist rule.
  #61  
Old 05-17-2018, 11:05 AM
Shodan Shodan is offline
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Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
How about affirmative action?
That's a good point, and I sit corrected. Affirmative action, insofar as it is incorporated into the law (for the government) or institutional policy (for that institution) is an example of institutional racism.

Not sure I agree with your other examples, but on this one, good call.

Regards,
Shodan
  #62  
Old 05-17-2018, 11:38 AM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is online now
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Originally Posted by puddleglum View Post
Outcome determining racism is incoherent. For example is it racist to refuse to hire convicted sex offenders to babysit your kids? If neutral rules that affect races differently are racist then that is a racist rule.
No, but it would be racist to refuse to hire a black person to babysit your kids, because there are black people out there that are sex offenders.
  #63  
Old 05-17-2018, 03:08 PM
puddleglum puddleglum is offline
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No, but it would be racist to refuse to hire a black person to babysit your kids, because there are black people out there that are sex offenders.
So even though black men would be rejected at twice the rate of white men for the job, it would not be racist?
Would it be evidence of systemic racism or bias?
  #64  
Old 05-17-2018, 03:27 PM
Ashtura Ashtura is offline
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I think black people getting rejected for jobs because they are black is because whoever is in charge of hiring (an individual) is biased, either conscious or unconcious.

Do I think a lot of individual racism could be traced back to blatant institutional racism of the past? Yeah probably. I also think that every generation is, on average, less "racist" by modern standards, than the last. I do not think that racism will every truly be totally gone (I think that's impossible due to inherent tribalism of humans), but I do think that it will diminish over time naturally and the statistics will probably bear that out.
  #65  
Old 05-17-2018, 03:52 PM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is online now
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Originally Posted by puddleglum View Post
So even though black men would be rejected at twice the rate of white men for the job, it would not be racist?
Would it be evidence of systemic racism or bias?
Why would black men be rejected at twice the rate of white men?
  #66  
Old 05-17-2018, 04:02 PM
Shodan Shodan is offline
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Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
Why would black men be rejected at twice the rate of white men?
Higher rates of criminal conviction, lower rates of educational achievement, lower numbers who meet the requirements - any number of reasons. It depends on the job.

Regards,
Shodan
  #67  
Old 05-17-2018, 05:44 PM
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Higher rates of criminal conviction, lower rates of educational achievement, lower numbers who meet the requirements - any number of reasons. It depends on the job.

Regards,
Shodan
How would those explain the results of resume and in person audits?

http://www.pnas.org/content/114/41/10870.full
  #68  
Old 05-17-2018, 08:07 PM
puddleglum puddleglum is offline
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Why would black men be rejected at twice the rate of white men?
Because you reject all sex offenders from the babysitting posts, black men are sex offenders at twice the rate white men are.
  #69  
Old 05-18-2018, 10:38 AM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is online now
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Because you reject all sex offenders from the babysitting posts, black men are sex offenders at twice the rate white men are.
And what would that have to do with employment?

If I post an ad for a babysitter, and part of that ad says "No sex offenders", then I shouldn't be getting any sex offenders at all.

If I then assume that, because (according to you, which I will accept for now with no cite) black men are sex offenders at twice the rate, I use that to justify rejecting black men, then that would be racist.

I'm not entirely sure where you are losing me here. I consider this to be extremely straightforward. It's not even nuanced. You don't discriminate against people because of what other people who look like them do. If you do, that's racist, no matter how you try to justify it.
  #70  
Old 05-18-2018, 01:53 PM
WillFarnaby WillFarnaby is offline
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The beginnings of the drug war are unmistakably racist in the same way affirmative action is today. Those laws are no longer supported using that rhetoric, but the outcome is no different. That is why I consider mass incarceration to be an example of systemic racism.
  #71  
Old 05-18-2018, 02:06 PM
Ashtura Ashtura is offline
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Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
It's not even nuanced. You don't discriminate against people because of what other people who look like them do. If you do, that's racist, no matter how you try to justify it.
Maybe not, but a helluva lot of people will avoid areas that have a lot of people who don't look like them. Especially at night. Yes, even self-proclaimed liberals. Is that racism, or risk assessment?
  #72  
Old 05-18-2018, 02:09 PM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is online now
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Maybe not, but a helluva lot of people will avoid areas that have a lot of people who don't look like them. Especially at night. Yes, even self-proclaimed liberals. Is that racism, or risk assessment?
Racism.
  #73  
Old 05-18-2018, 02:28 PM
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Maybe not, but a helluva lot of people will avoid areas that have a lot of people who don't look like them. Especially at night. Yes, even self-proclaimed liberals. Is that racism, or risk assessment?
- avoiding an area because it has a lot of people that don't look like you is racism

- avoiding an area because its high poverty and high crime is risk assessment

People often conflate the two, or think the first is ok because the second is ok.
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  #74  
Old 05-18-2018, 02:43 PM
puddleglum puddleglum is offline
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Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
And what would that have to do with employment?

If I post an ad for a babysitter, and part of that ad says "No sex offenders", then I shouldn't be getting any sex offenders at all.

If I then assume that, because (according to you, which I will accept for now with no cite) black men are sex offenders at twice the rate, I use that to justify rejecting black men, then that would be racist.

I'm not entirely sure where you are losing me here. I consider this to be extremely straightforward. It's not even nuanced. You don't discriminate against people because of what other people who look like them do. If you do, that's racist, no matter how you try to justify it.
If you rejected all sex offenders then assuming similar interest levels there would be significantly more white men employed in the babysitting industry. Some people would see this as prima facia evidence of systemic bias against black men in the babysitting industry. Yet this would be achieved with no racial bias and if racism were magically erased from the heart of every person in the country it would persist.

This is an example of why different outcomes being produced with no bias and a reason why it is not enough to point to disparate outcomes to prove systemic bias. It also shows a situation where fighting phantasms such as systemic bias are a waste of time.
  #75  
Old 05-18-2018, 02:59 PM
puddleglum puddleglum is offline
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The beginnings of the drug war are unmistakably racist in the same way affirmative action is today. Those laws are no longer supported using that rhetoric, but the outcome is no different. That is why I consider mass incarceration to be an example of systemic racism.
Mass incarceration is a different issue than the drug war. If you released every person in jail for a drug offense there would still be 80% of the prisoners left and the demographics would not be any different.
  #76  
Old 05-18-2018, 03:10 PM
Ashtura Ashtura is offline
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- avoiding an area because it has a lot of people that don't look like you is racism

- avoiding an area because its high poverty and high crime is risk assessment

People often conflate the two, or think the first is ok because the second is ok.
Yes, but let's say you didn't have the luxury of on-demand crime statistics. If you're lost at night, and find yourself in a place with a lot of black people, and perhaps maybe some run down buildings, would you be wrong to think that getting out of there was a good idea?
  #77  
Old 05-18-2018, 03:13 PM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is online now
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Originally Posted by puddleglum View Post
If you rejected all sex offenders then assuming similar interest levels there would be significantly more white men employed in the babysitting industry. Some people would see this as prima facia evidence of systemic bias against black men in the babysitting industry. Yet this would be achieved with no racial bias and if racism were magically erased from the heart of every person in the country it would persist.
"Some people"? Who? I'm not sure I agree with your premise. I'm feeling more than a little straw here.

Now, there is also the fact that I have taken as given that your statement that black men commit sex offenses at twice the rate of white men without checking of asking for a cite. I can accept that the number of black men convicted for sex offenses is twice that of white men, but I'm not sure if that actually translates into that they commit it twice as often. Just as with many crimes, white people tend to get away with them, while black men don't.

So, at this point, we are looking at possible racial bias in the justice system that is causing these disparate outcomes.

Even past that, even if black and white are prosecuted at the same proportional rate as the commision of the crime (which I do not really believe), you still have the fact that poverty increases crime, and black men are more likely to be impoverished due to both current and historical racism.

Quote:
This is an example of why different outcomes being produced with no bias and a reason why it is not enough to point to disparate outcomes to prove systemic bias.
Right, but your logic is the logic that racists use to justify their racism against individuals. Lets say that the genetic racists are right, and being black makes you twice as likely to commit sexual offenses (I thoroughly disagree with this position), does that mean that that you should treat an individual black man with more suspicion than you would a white man?

But, there is a little straw there as well. We don't look at outcomes, we look at opportunities. And there are definitely more opportunities granted to the white straight man than to other demographics.
Quote:
It also shows a situation where fighting phantasms such as systemic bias are a waste of time.
Are you saying that there are no victims of systemic bias, or that fighting for them is a waste of time?
  #78  
Old 05-18-2018, 03:13 PM
Airbeck Airbeck is offline
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Yes, but let's say you didn't have the luxury of on-demand crime statistics. If you're lost at night, and find yourself in a place with a lot of black people, and perhaps maybe some run down buildings, would you be wrong to think that getting out of there was a good idea?
Depends. Is it because of the black people or because of the run down buildings?

There are poor white areas too. Correlating black people with crime is wrong. Poverty and crime is a vastly higher correlation. How would you feel if people made such snap judgments about you just because of how you look?

If you see black people and your first reaction is to be scared and hurry out of there, you might just be a racist.
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Last edited by Airbeck; 05-18-2018 at 03:15 PM.
  #79  
Old 05-18-2018, 03:16 PM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is online now
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Yes, but let's say you didn't have the luxury of on-demand crime statistics. If you're lost at night, and find yourself in a place with a lot of black people, and perhaps maybe some run down buildings, would you be wrong to think that getting out of there was a good idea?
Are you talking about poverty, or are you talking about black people?

We can break this down into two different questions.

If you are a black person, and you find yourself in a place with a lot of white people, would you be wrong to think that getting out of there was a good idea?

If you are a person, and you find yourself in a place with some run down buildings, would you be wrong to think that getting out of there was a good idea?
  #80  
Old 05-18-2018, 03:25 PM
manson1972 manson1972 is offline
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Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
"Some people"? Who? I'm not sure I agree with your premise. I'm feeling more than a little straw here.

Are you saying that there are no victims of systemic bias, or that fighting for them is a waste of time?
I think they are saying that if you have a "No Sex Offender" policy, and black people are twice as likely to be sex offenders, then your policy is going to affect more black people than white people. And that makes it a racist policy if you are only looking at outcomes.
  #81  
Old 05-18-2018, 03:28 PM
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Depends. Is it because of the black people or because of the run down buildings?

There are poor white areas too. Correlating black people with crime is wrong. Poverty and crime is a vastly higher correlation. How would you feel if people made such snap judgments about you just because of how you look?

If you see black people and your first reaction is to be scared and hurry out of there, you might just be a racist.
Yeah, I'm not even talking about the race of the stranger. Jesse Jackson said he feels relief when someone's walking behind him and it turns out to be a white person. I don't think that's an isolated case. Maybe that's because of an possibly incorrect belief that you are more likely to be victimized by a random black person than a random white person, but there definitely seems to be judgement, and not even snap judgement.
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Old 05-18-2018, 03:30 PM
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So maybe we should be aware of that and try to be better? It's human to have reactions to things, but we should try to think about our reactions and be self aware of them in case we are being unfair.
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  #83  
Old 05-18-2018, 03:31 PM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is online now
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I think they are saying that if you have a "No Sex Offender" policy, and black people are twice as likely to be sex offenders, then your policy is going to affect more black people than white people. And that makes it a racist policy if you are only looking at outcomes.
I disagree with that.

It is not a racist policy, but, if you do look at the outcomes, you can still see how systemic bias is affecting minorities, even if it is not the fault of a particular individual or policy.

To take an extreme example, if we go before Brown vs Board of education, if I have a policy that says that you must have certain grades and classes on your transcripts, and due to the difference in education given to black and white students, many more white students achieve those grades in those classes, it is not my policy that is racist, but my policy is exposing systemic racism.
  #84  
Old 05-18-2018, 03:34 PM
manson1972 manson1972 is offline
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Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
To take an extreme example, if we go before Brown vs Board of education, if I have a policy that says that you must have certain grades and classes on your transcripts, and due to the difference in education given to black and white students, many more white students achieve those grades in those classes, it is not my policy that is racist, but my policy is exposing systemic racism.
Sure, but would you change your policy to overcome the systemic racism?
  #85  
Old 05-18-2018, 03:38 PM
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Yeah, I'm not even talking about the race of the stranger. Jesse Jackson said he feels relief when someone's walking behind him and it turns out to be a white person. I don't think that's an isolated case. Maybe that's because of an possibly incorrect belief that you are more likely to be victimized by a random black person than a random white person, but there definitely seems to be judgement, and not even snap judgement.
And Jesse Jackson was saying that it was a racist thought to have. He was admitting that he even feels racial bias, even when there is no reason for it. He was opening the door for others to be able to express similar sentiments and confront their racial biases, not giving them permission to be racists.
  #86  
Old 05-18-2018, 03:42 PM
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Sure, but would you change your policy to overcome the systemic racism?
Depends on the reason for my policy.

If I have a policy that you need to be able to write computer code, because I am hiring a computer programmer to do work for me, then whether or not the policy ends up having a disparate racial outcome, I need people that can code.

If I have a policy that requires "Squirrel hunting and basting 101: The miracles of mayonnaise" as a class, and I know that it is a class that is only offered at white schools, then yes, I would change my policy to better overcome that systemic racism.
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