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  #51  
Old 02-14-2018, 02:02 PM
Thing Fish Thing Fish is offline
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Here are the 538 number cruncher's attempts to rank all the teams in the top soccer leagues (453 teams) against each other.

They have the best MLS team, Toronto FC, ranked exactly equal to the worst EPL team, Huddersfield Town (worst according to their ratings, not to the current standings). The worst MLS team, however (Colorado), is worse than any team in the Championship (English second division). It appears that the modal MLS team would be expected to finish on the low side of mid-table in the Championship, but not to be in much danger of relegation. So, basically seems to agree with the consensus in this thread.
  #52  
Old 02-14-2018, 03:31 PM
ISiddiqui ISiddiqui is offline
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Originally Posted by AK84 View Post
You are telling me, that the Billionaire owners of the teams, in the richest country in the world they can't drop some big money on a couple of top-tier talent? Instead of Mr No-Name from Nebraska, imagine if sides had players like Coutinho or Fabregas or hell even Neymar? Messi could surely sell out New Jersey. Sure, you have the prestige factor, but come on; money eventually talks. Look at China, they seem to have started getting big name stars now because they are willing to pay 250,000 a week wages.
In addition to what others have pointed out regarding actually making a profit on the teams, only THREE MLS teams are also owned by NFL owners. The Revolution, as you mentioned owned by Kraft, Atlanta United, owned by Arthur Blank, and Seattle Sounders, for which Paul Allen who is a minority owner for them is also the owner of the Seahawks. The rest have a far less value than NFL owners or even NBA owners.

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Originally Posted by Telemark View Post
Aside from the soccer strongholds, many teams are in fairly small markets with limited incomes.
Eh? You may have some small strongholds like Salt Lake City or Columbus (for now) or Kansas City or Portland, but most teams are in the major markets. There are 2 teams in NY metro, will be 2 teams (again) in LA, a team in Chicago, Dallas, Houston, Washington, Atlanta. Soon to be a team again in Miami (by 2020). Toronto and Montreal in Canada. Really the only major Top 15 markets that don't have a team now or coming soon is Phoenix and Detroit and they both in the mix for an expansion.

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Originally Posted by Thing Fish View Post
Here are the 538 number cruncher's attempts to rank all the teams in the top soccer leagues (453 teams) against each other.

They have the best MLS team, Toronto FC, ranked exactly equal to the worst EPL team, Huddersfield Town (worst according to their ratings, not to the current standings). The worst MLS team, however (Colorado), is worse than any team in the Championship (English second division). It appears that the modal MLS team would be expected to finish on the low side of mid-table in the Championship, but not to be in much danger of relegation. So, basically seems to agree with the consensus in this thread.
That sounds about right. Also Toronto FC last season was arguably the greatest team in MLS history (most points ever, won the MLS Cup, etc) so mid Championship is likely a good approximation. Not that long ago, MLS teams would probably more League One - they've come a long way.

Last edited by ISiddiqui; 02-14-2018 at 03:32 PM.
  #53  
Old 02-14-2018, 03:42 PM
Sir T-Cups Sir T-Cups is offline
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Teams don't pay players $20M a year because they wouldn't generate $20M a year in extra profit. No way would Messi add another 70k people a game, and if he did, there are only two players in the world with big name recognition in the US. You couldn't come close to replicating that with every team. Coutinho? I bet more than half of MLS season ticket holders have no idea who he is.
I'm probably a pretty average US soccer fan in that I follow the MLS to a decent degree since I have a local team, and I follow Intl soccer when Sportscenter talks about it, and I have no idea who that is.

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Originally Posted by ISiddiqui View Post
Eh? You may have some small strongholds like Salt Lake City or Columbus (for now) or Kansas City or Portland, but most teams are in the major markets. There are 2 teams in NY metro, will be 2 teams (again) in LA, a team in Chicago, Dallas, Houston, Washington, Atlanta. Soon to be a team again in Miami (by 2020). Toronto and Montreal in Canada. Really the only major Top 15 markets that don't have a team now or coming soon is Phoenix and Detroit and they both in the mix for an expansion.
Since you didn't mention us, I believe we are 19th in TV markets, probably one of the lesser ones.
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Last edited by Sir T-Cups; 02-14-2018 at 03:42 PM.
  #54  
Old 02-14-2018, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by ISiddiqui View Post
Eh? You may have some small strongholds like Salt Lake City or Columbus (for now) or Kansas City or Portland, but most teams are in the major markets.
Yup, you're correct. My memory is playing tricks on me. Granted, some of those teams are in big markets that simply don't appear to have much soccer appeal, but the teams are fairly well placed at this point.
  #55  
Old 02-14-2018, 05:10 PM
ISiddiqui ISiddiqui is offline
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Since you didn't mention us, I believe we are 19th in TV markets, probably one of the lesser ones.
15-20 TV market makes you more of a mid-market than a small one, IMO. Though I believe y'all are 18th now - Orlando is growing at a good rate.

Also I really like y'all's stadium. Hopefully one day make an away game visit when Atlanta comes calling.
  #56  
Old 02-14-2018, 05:13 PM
ISiddiqui ISiddiqui is offline
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Yup, you're correct. My memory is playing tricks on me. Granted, some of those teams are in big markets that simply don't appear to have much soccer appeal, but the teams are fairly well placed at this point.
No worries - MLS has been expanding at a breakneck pace in the last 10 years. In that time, bigger markets like Toronto, Philly, Seattle, Atlanta, Minneapolis have joined up. There was quite a gap between like the 10-20 media markets in favor of some smaller cities (mostly for geographical reasons as well). Sometimes it's hard to keep up. I am hoping after 28 the league takes a few years to just breathe and deepen.
  #57  
Old 02-15-2018, 09:13 AM
Sir T-Cups Sir T-Cups is offline
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Originally Posted by ISiddiqui View Post
15-20 TV market makes you more of a mid-market than a small one, IMO. Though I believe y'all are 18th now - Orlando is growing at a good rate.

Also I really like y'all's stadium. Hopefully one day make an away game visit when Atlanta comes calling.
I think we tried really, really hard (or maybe you did?) to make the two teams a rivalry with the whole "taking out a trash-talking billboard" thing. But then you proceeded to kill us in both games so that didn't work out so much in our favor
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  #58  
Old 02-15-2018, 09:28 AM
ISiddiqui ISiddiqui is offline
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I think we tried really, really hard (or maybe you did?) to make the two teams a rivalry with the whole "taking out a trash-talking billboard" thing. But then you proceeded to kill us in both games so that didn't work out so much in our favor
I think MLS tried .

And I'm surprised you forgot about the 3-3 draw in MBS (quite possibly one of the best games I've watched in MLS).
  #59  
Old 02-15-2018, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by ISiddiqui View Post
Eh? You may have some small strongholds like Salt Lake City or Columbus (for now) or Kansas City or Portland, but most teams are in the major markets. There are 2 teams in NY metro, will be 2 teams (again) in LA, a team in Chicago, Dallas, Houston, Washington, Atlanta. Soon to be a team again in Miami (by 2020). Toronto and Montreal in Canada. Really the only major Top 15 markets that don't have a team now or coming soon is Phoenix and Detroit and they both in the mix for an expansion.



That sounds about right. Also Toronto FC last season was arguably the greatest team in MLS history (most points ever, won the MLS Cup, etc) so mid Championship is likely a good approximation. Not that long ago, MLS teams would probably more League One - they've come a long way.
Just a nit to pick. Three teams in Canada. Vancouver Whitecaps. Makes for a good regional rivalry with Seattle and Portland. Being in the west (Alberta) I have a tiny bit more interest in MLS than if there were only teams out east. Also a friend's son was part of the Junior Whitecaps program which made the team and the league a bit more personal to me.
  #60  
Old 02-15-2018, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Sir T-Cups View Post
I think we tried really, really hard (or maybe you did?) to make the two teams a rivalry with the whole "taking out a trash-talking billboard" thing. But then you proceeded to kill us in both games so that didn't work out so much in our favor
Yeah that seemed like a weird direction for the teams/MLS to go. If OCSC wants to cultivate a rivalry, wait until 2020 and cultivate one with Miami.
  #61  
Old 02-15-2018, 10:02 AM
Sir T-Cups Sir T-Cups is offline
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Or play up the fight with New York Blue because we started in the same year.

I don't think this has been mentioned, but the MLS All-Star team usually faces an EPL team and barely fairs decent against them. This is the best of our best versus a single team that, lets be honest, probably isn't even trying that hard.
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  #62  
Old 02-15-2018, 11:16 AM
Snarky_Kong Snarky_Kong is offline
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Originally Posted by Sir T-Cups View Post
Or play up the fight with New York Blue because we started in the same year.

I don't think this has been mentioned, but the MLS All-Star team usually faces an EPL team and barely fairs decent against them. This is the best of our best versus a single team that, lets be honest, probably isn't even trying that hard.
If you think results in an exhibition game actually matter, MLS far far exceeds expectations in the MLS All-Star game. 7-2-4 (W-D-L) against ManU, Bayern, Chelsea, Arsenal, Real Madrid, Roma, etc is a phenomenal record for a team that doesn't practice together.

Of course the games mean nothing because they're exhibitions, but if you were going to say they mattered then they reflect highly on MLS rather than poorly.
  #63  
Old 02-15-2018, 11:24 AM
ISiddiqui ISiddiqui is offline
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Just a nit to pick. Three teams in Canada.
Yes, I know, but Vancouver isn't as big as Toronto or Montreal to qualify as a 'major market'. Toronto is the 7th largest metro area in North America and Montreal is 19th. Vancouver is 31st, with about the same metro population as Portland.
  #64  
Old 02-15-2018, 11:35 AM
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Ah, fair enough. I'm surprised Vancouver is that low.
  #65  
Old 02-15-2018, 03:19 PM
Sir T-Cups Sir T-Cups is offline
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If you think results in an exhibition game actually matter, MLS far far exceeds expectations in the MLS All-Star game. 7-2-4 (W-D-L) against ManU, Bayern, Chelsea, Arsenal, Real Madrid, Roma, etc is a phenomenal record for a team that doesn't practice together.

Of course the games mean nothing because they're exhibitions, but if you were going to say they mattered then they reflect highly on MLS rather than poorly.
Yeah, it's essentially proving my point. We throw the best we have at them, they probably aren't even trying, and we only barely have a winning record against them. Granted it's with players who've never practiced together against a TEAM, but even with practice how much better would they really be?
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  #66  
Old 02-15-2018, 03:36 PM
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they probably aren't even trying
I'm sorry, but isn't that bad sportsmanship in the extreme?
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Old 02-15-2018, 03:46 PM
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I'm sorry, but isn't that bad sportsmanship in the extreme?
Have you ever watched the NFL Pro Bowl?
  #68  
Old 02-15-2018, 05:49 PM
g8rguy g8rguy is offline
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Yeah, it's essentially proving my point. We throw the best we have at them, they probably aren't even trying, and we only barely have a winning record against them. Granted it's with players who've never practiced together against a TEAM, but even with practice how much better would they really be?
Not that the results of these exhibitions are remotely meaningful, but suppose we take them seriously. I would argue that 7-2-4 over 13 games is a very respectable record: It projects to 67 points in a 38-game season (60 in a 34-game season), which would typically earn you somewhere around 5th-7th in the Premiership, or 4th-6th in the Bundesliga/Serie A/La Liga. And that's on a schedule not salted with relegation candidates.
  #69  
Old 02-15-2018, 06:18 PM
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I'm sorry, but isn't that bad sportsmanship in the extreme?
Nope, nobody cares about friendly matches.

But that's not the point really - the MLS looks like it has decent attendances, there's proper rivalries developing, the fans are enjoying themselves, the players are pretty good, the national team more often than not get to play in the World Cup.

There's plenty of very venerable footballing nations who can't say all of that (see my location)
  #70  
Old 02-15-2018, 06:20 PM
Lamar Mundane Lamar Mundane is offline
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In addition to what others have pointed out regarding actually making a profit on the teams, only THREE MLS teams are also owned by NFL owners. The Revolution, as you mentioned owned by Kraft, Atlanta United, owned by Arthur Blank, and Seattle Sounders, for which Paul Allen who is a minority owner for them is also the owner of the Seahawks. The rest have a far less value than NFL owners or even NBA owners.
Stan Kroenke owns the Colorado Rapids and the LA Rams of the NFL. He also owns Arsenal, the Colorado Avalanche (NHL) and Denver Nuggets (NBA). He is the 57th richest person in the US.
  #71  
Old 02-15-2018, 08:06 PM
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Have you ever watched the NFL Pro Bowl?
Thatís pro football players on a tropical vacation and playing flag football.
  #72  
Old 02-16-2018, 08:04 AM
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the national team more often than not get to play in the World Cup.
If only. As Og is my witness, our failure to make the 2018 Cup, thanks to a loss to Fucking Trinidad And Fucking Tobago (a country with the population of Fucking Sacramento), set American soccer back 10 years, if not 20.

Our international team is a disgrace.
  #73  
Old 02-16-2018, 08:27 AM
Sir T-Cups Sir T-Cups is offline
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If only. As Og is my witness, our failure to make the 2018 Cup, thanks to a loss to Fucking Trinidad And Fucking Tobago (a country with the population of Fucking Sacramento), set American soccer back 10 years, if not 20.

Our international team is a disgrace.
Just MHO, but that's a biiiiiiit extreme. I see it more as the culmination of a many smaller problems that eventually illicited big changes.

We'll see though.
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  #74  
Old 02-16-2018, 09:30 AM
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Happens every qualification that one major power and a few mid levels miss out. Law of averages says the US miss out once or twice. 1990,1998,2002,2006,2010,2014 (automatic qualification in 1994) is fairly impressive.
  #75  
Old 02-16-2018, 09:34 AM
Snarky_Kong Snarky_Kong is offline
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Thatís pro football players on a tropical vacation and playing flag football.
And this is pro football players on an American vacation playing to not get hurt. The comparison isn't that bad.

Playing at regular match intensity would actually be very poor sportsmanship.
  #76  
Old 02-16-2018, 09:54 AM
ISiddiqui ISiddiqui is offline
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Stan Kroenke owns the Colorado Rapids and the LA Rams of the NFL. He also owns Arsenal, the Colorado Avalanche (NHL) and Denver Nuggets (NBA). He is the 57th richest person in the US.
That's fair. He is also a terrible owner with regard to every team he owns (ask an Arsenal fan) . He may be ok with LA version of the Rams.
  #77  
Old 02-19-2018, 03:54 PM
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I don't think this has been mentioned, but the MLS All-Star team usually faces an EPL team and barely fairs decent against them. This is the best of our best versus a single team that, lets be honest, probably isn't even trying that hard.

And never play the first team.

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Have you ever watched the NFL Pro Bowl?

Almost as painful as the NHL Allstar game. Yeah I get it these aren't the kinda games to go all out on, obviously - I think they should just eliminate the game but stick with the voting. (and also for the several-day break in the middle of the season)

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Happens every qualification that one major power and a few mid levels miss out.

I'm STILL trying to register Italy.

WOW.

Last edited by Guest-starring: Id!; 02-19-2018 at 03:56 PM.
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