Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 11-29-2018, 02:02 AM
russian heel russian heel is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,634
Was Boca-River Plate the biggest sports showdown in history?

This past weekend's Boca Juniors-River Plate match WAS to feature the second leg of the tied South American Liberators Cup Final (SA equivalent of the UEFA Champions League Final). Things went all wrong as River Plate's stadium (Monumental) was full waiting for Boca players to arrive when Plate fans launched an attack on the Boca bus, rendering several key Boca players unable to play.

After much political wrangling,. the match was delayed a day (Imagine cancelling the Super Bowl at the last minute, and asking everyone to come back the next day); then postponed the day after when it was deemed Boca was not ready to compete. Now, the leg has been moved top Qatar due to safety reasons.

To further put this into context, arguably, there is no bigger rivalry in soccer than this. One would be hard pressed to find two such large soccer clubs in the same city that are such big rivals. In addition, it has taken 127 years for both teams to end up in the South American Heavyweight Championship.

For that reason, this match was named "El Finalissimo", "The Final to End All Finals" so you can imagine the tension in Buenos Aires as the 2nd leg approached. I somehow think moving the game 9,000 miles away will dull this hence my "WAS" as in "would have been".

When I use the term "showdown", there needs to be some drama, and the appearance the two combatants have not faced before, at least in the context they are battling for.

Are there even bigger showdowns in sports? Ali-Frazier? I know Connor v Floyd got a lot of play last year, but was that really a "showdown" or more of a publicity stunt? Maybe Conner MacGregor v Khabib?

New England v Seattle in the Super Bowl?

The first time Alabama met Clemson in the NCAAF Championship?

Canada v USA for the hockey Gold Medal in Vancouver at the Olympics?

You tell me!
  #2  
Old 11-29-2018, 10:46 AM
zimaane zimaane is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: washington, dc
Posts: 686
It's a little before my time, but Mohammed Ali's boxing matches were huge, worldwide events. Connors-McEnroe or Borg - McEnroe at Wimbledon were big showdowns too.

I would think that Barcelona - Real Madrid is a more well known rivalry than any between two teams in Argentina. Barca - RM matches are known as "El Classico" and they are always a big deal, especially when they are in a tournament.

In American football, the biggest rivalries are among teams in the same conference (Bears - Packers, Cowboys - Redskins) so they can't meet in a Super Bowl.
  #3  
Old 11-29-2018, 02:06 PM
Snarky_Kong Snarky_Kong is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,875
Quote:
Originally Posted by russian heel View Post
To further put this into context, arguably, there is no bigger rivalry in soccer than this. One would be hard pressed to find two such large soccer clubs in the same city that are such big rivals.
Milan vs Internazionale. Man U vs Man City. Arsenal vs Tottenham. Real Madric vs Atletico Madrid. Celtic vs Rangers.

Last edited by Snarky_Kong; 11-29-2018 at 02:08 PM.
  #4  
Old 11-29-2018, 02:16 PM
Snarky_Kong Snarky_Kong is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,875
The telegraph does rate the Boca vs River Plate as the biggest rivalry in soccer though.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...?frame=3239137
  #5  
Old 11-29-2018, 03:54 PM
Little Nemo Little Nemo is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Western New York
Posts: 79,571
I'm voting for the 1936 Berlin Olympics.
  #6  
Old 11-29-2018, 04:14 PM
ISiddiqui ISiddiqui is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Decatur, Georgia, USA
Posts: 6,445
Quote:
Originally Posted by zimaane View Post
Barca - RM matches are known as "El Classico"
Boca v. River is the Superclasico, however .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercl%C3%A1sico

Quote:
The Superclásico is known worldwide as one of the fiercest and most important derbies.[8] In April 2004, the English newspaper The Observer put the Superclásico at the top of their list of "50 sporting things you must do before you die", saying that "Derby day in Buenos Aires makes the Old Firm game look like a primary school kick-about",[9] in 2016 the British football magazine FourFourTwo considered it the "biggest derby in the world",[10] The Daily Telegraph ranked this match as the "biggest club rivalry in world football" in 2016,[11] and the Daily Mirror placed it number 1 in The top 50 football derbies in the world, above El Clásico between FC Barcelona and Real Madrid C.F., in 2017.[12]

Last edited by ISiddiqui; 11-29-2018 at 04:16 PM.
  #7  
Old 11-29-2018, 07:01 PM
Jackknifed Juggernaut Jackknifed Juggernaut is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Lenni Lenape Land
Posts: 5,724
I was just going to start a thread on this , so lucky I saw this. First, pretty impressive that they were able to move the Copa Libertadores Final match to December 9 in Madrid. I just wonder how much the Spanish fans will care. Surely some of the Argentine players in Spain will show up for the match. I think recency bias has dropped this rivalry a bit in the all-time ranking. The well funded European leagues dominate soccer now, so the South American teams are always a step behind. But outside Europe, this has to be the greatest rivalry. By the way, the Eternal Derby in Croatia has to be considered for the top spot. Fans sneak flares into the arenas prison-style. Google that one and tell me if you would go.
__________________
"That's right. Even my feet have balls." Stephen Colbert 9/28/10
  #8  
Old 11-29-2018, 07:16 PM
Jackknifed Juggernaut Jackknifed Juggernaut is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Lenni Lenape Land
Posts: 5,724
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snarky_Kong View Post
..... Man U vs Man City. Arsenal vs Tottenham....
In England, I think Man U-Liverpool takes the top spot.
__________________
"That's right. Even my feet have balls." Stephen Colbert 9/28/10
  #9  
Old 11-29-2018, 08:19 PM
Snarky_Kong Snarky_Kong is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,875
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackknifed Juggernaut View Post
In England, I think Man U-Liverpool takes the top spot.
OP said same city.
  #10  
Old 11-29-2018, 09:09 PM
Jackknifed Juggernaut Jackknifed Juggernaut is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Lenni Lenape Land
Posts: 5,724
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snarky_Kong View Post
OP said same city.
Gotcha
__________________
"That's right. Even my feet have balls." Stephen Colbert 9/28/10
  #11  
Old 11-29-2018, 09:43 PM
Colibri's Avatar
Colibri Colibri is offline
SD Curator of Critters
Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Panama
Posts: 40,802
Quote:
Originally Posted by zimaane View Post
In American football, the biggest rivalries are among teams in the same conference (Bears - Packers, Cowboys - Redskins) so they can't meet in a Super Bowl.
Same in baseball. The biggest rivalries are Yankees-Red Sox, Giants-Dodgers, and Cardinals-Cubs. They can't meet for the championship, so the biggest "showdowns" are in the playoffs.

The biggest "showdown" of this sort has undoubtedly been the 2004 ALCS between the Yankees-Red Sox, when the Red Sox finally managed to beat their rivals after being down 0-3. Before that it would have been the 1951 tie-breaking series for the pennant between the Dodgers and the Giants. But these wouldn't satisfy some of the other conditions in the OP.
  #12  
Old 11-30-2018, 01:54 AM
russian heel russian heel is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,634
Eh..... with all due respect to these great rivalries, still can’t imagine a Man U-Liverpool game in 2018 or a Red Sox-Yankees game being moved to different country, let alone continent because of the fan tension.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
  #13  
Old 11-30-2018, 05:43 AM
Novelty Bobble Novelty Bobble is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: South East England
Posts: 7,964
depends what you mean by "biggest".

If that is "most violent" or "most civil order issues" then possibly. If you mean "most watched" or "most interest worldwide" then probably not.
  #14  
Old 11-30-2018, 10:07 AM
Colibri's Avatar
Colibri Colibri is offline
SD Curator of Critters
Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Panama
Posts: 40,802
Quote:
Originally Posted by russian heel View Post
Eh..... with all due respect to these great rivalries, still can’t imagine a Man U-Liverpool game in 2018 or a Red Sox-Yankees game being moved to different country, let alone continent because of the fan tension.
I don't think that fans of any other sports engage in such extreme violence against either other fans or players as soccer, so you're limited to examples from that sport. (I have seen plenty of scuffles at Yankees-Red Sox games, and there are other examples of individual violence and even killings, but not organized violence by groups of fans. And there may be celebratory riots and car-burnings after a championship in some cities. But fans assaulting a team bus and several players would be unheard of.) I don't think the degree of violence by fans indicates the importance of a "showdown" in sports.

Last edited by Colibri; 11-30-2018 at 10:07 AM.
  #15  
Old 11-30-2018, 01:50 PM
Atamasama's Avatar
Atamasama Atamasama is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,685
Quote:
Originally Posted by russian heel View Post
New England v Seattle in the Super Bowl?
Eh, that was a big deal because of the way it ended, not necessarily because the match itself was a big showdown. They did have a bit of a rivalry going into it but it’s two teams from opposite sides of the country that didn’t have too much of a history going into the game. (If they somehow had a rematch this year, which is very unlikely but not impossible, that would probably be a big deal.)

The 2013 NFC Championship between Seattle and San Francisco was a much bigger showdown; two teams that pretty much hated each other, coached by head coaches that clashed, and both at the height of their ability and the rivalry was also at their peak. After that game the Seahawks went on to steamroll Denver 43-8 and be champions, and the Niners faded away and slowly fell apart (and are competing this year for first draft pick). The game itself was filled with lots of emotion as well (Richard Sherman’s postgame rant is infamous). To me that’s about as much of a showdown as you’ll likely see in the NFL.
  #16  
Old 11-30-2018, 01:55 PM
Telemark's Avatar
Telemark Telemark is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Again, Titletown
Posts: 21,848
The NFL just doesn't seem to create the same heated rivalries that college football does. Alabama vs Auburn, Michigan vs Ohio St, Army vs Navy - these are events. NFL games are just important games.
  #17  
Old 11-30-2018, 02:10 PM
Atamasama's Avatar
Atamasama Atamasama is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,685
I agree, I think part of it is because NFL teams are owned by private individuals, and are tied to certain geographical markets but can move or otherwise go away pretty much at any time if it makes business sense. In college, a team is tied to a school and isn’t going anywhere because that school isn’t going anywhere. And many schools have been around for a very long time and will continue to be.

So just being tied to a school makes these rivalries more potent. You’d expect things to be more emotional and deeper in college.
  #18  
Old 11-30-2018, 02:50 PM
Colibri's Avatar
Colibri Colibri is offline
SD Curator of Critters
Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Panama
Posts: 40,802
I wouldn't consider the two teams to be long-term rivals, but the 2007 Superbowl between the New England Patriots and New York Giants had the nature of a showdown. The Patriots had defeated the Giants in the final week of the season to complete a perfect 16-0 regular season. That made it all the more dramatic when the underdog Giants beat them in the Superbowl to deny them the first perfect 19-0 record.
  #19  
Old 11-30-2018, 02:57 PM
Atamasama's Avatar
Atamasama Atamasama is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,685
Plus, Eli vs Tom, who is the greatest of all time?!
  #20  
Old 11-30-2018, 04:00 PM
Colibri's Avatar
Colibri Colibri is offline
SD Curator of Critters
Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Panama
Posts: 40,802
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atamasama View Post
Plus, Eli vs Tom, who is the greatest of all time?!
I don't think even Giant fans consider Eli the GOAT. I think you must be confusing him with his brother Peyton, who never faced Brady in the Superbowl.
  #21  
Old 11-30-2018, 04:01 PM
Jackmannii Jackmannii is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: the extreme center
Posts: 30,757
The biggest sports showdown in history was undoubtedly the 1975 CFL (Chicagoland Football League) championship game in which the Newton Nite Hawks* defeated the Niles Saints.

*you will remember their stellar running back, Lightning Mitchell.
  #22  
Old 11-30-2018, 04:16 PM
Atamasama's Avatar
Atamasama Atamasama is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,685
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colibri View Post
I don't think even Giant fans consider Eli the GOAT. I think you must be confusing him with his brother Peyton, who never faced Brady in the Superbowl.
I was being ironic, but no I couldn’t confuse Eli with Peyton (who will almost surely be in the HoF).
  #23  
Old 11-30-2018, 09:32 PM
Saint Cad Saint Cad is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: N of Denver & S of Sanity
Posts: 12,954
I would go with Yale vs Princeton for the final football game in 1888.
__________________
If all else fails, try S.C.E. to Aux.
  #24  
Old 11-30-2018, 09:38 PM
russian heel russian heel is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,634
Quote:
Originally Posted by Telemark View Post
The NFL just doesn't seem to create the same heated rivalries that college football does. Alabama vs Auburn, Michigan vs Ohio St, Army vs Navy - these are events. NFL games are just important games.

Especially in College when teams don’t always regularly meet each other. The Notre Dame v Miami “Catholics v Convicts” showdown in the 80s is a great example.

Recently in Philly the Temple-Notre Dame game was a pretty big deal—— Temple wins suddenly they are a top 10 team with a snowballs chance at the Playoff. As it turns out they lost and played the Motor City Bowl.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
  #25  
Old 11-30-2018, 09:47 PM
Guinastasia's Avatar
Guinastasia Guinastasia is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 52,115
No love for the Miracle on Ice? The Vancouver Olympics is a fucking joke in comparison.

Or for that matter, the Summit Series between Canada and the Soviet Union.
  #26  
Old 11-30-2018, 10:15 PM
AK84 AK84 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 15,761
England v Australia. Pakistan v India in cricket.
Germany v Netherlands in soccer. Or Brazil V Argentina.
  #27  
Old 11-30-2018, 11:40 PM
Jackknifed Juggernaut Jackknifed Juggernaut is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Lenni Lenape Land
Posts: 5,724
If we’re including individual sports, Ali-Frazier, Robinson-LaMotta, Hearns-Hagler-Leonard, Sampras-Agassi, Nadal-Federer-Djokovic, Nicklaus-Palmer, Tiger-Phil, Ovett-Coe
__________________
"That's right. Even my feet have balls." Stephen Colbert 9/28/10
  #28  
Old 11-30-2018, 11:44 PM
Jackknifed Juggernaut Jackknifed Juggernaut is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Lenni Lenape Land
Posts: 5,724
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackknifed Juggernaut View Post
If we’re including individual sports, Ali-Frazier, Robinson-LaMotta, Hearns-Hagler-Leonard, Sampras-Agassi, Nadal-Federer-Djokovic, Nicklaus-Palmer, Tiger-Phil, Ovett-Coe
Plus individuals within team sports: Messi-Ronaldo, Bird-Magic, Crosby-Ovechkin
__________________
"That's right. Even my feet have balls." Stephen Colbert 9/28/10
  #29  
Old 12-01-2018, 02:24 PM
Jackknifed Juggernaut Jackknifed Juggernaut is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Lenni Lenape Land
Posts: 5,724
Well, there goes that idea...

http://www.espn.com/soccer/river-pla...iors-in-madrid
__________________
"That's right. Even my feet have balls." Stephen Colbert 9/28/10
  #30  
Old 12-02-2018, 03:42 PM
RickJay RickJay is offline
Charter Jays Fan
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Oakville, Canada
Posts: 40,389
Any World Cup final is bigger than ANY national championship in any sport in any country. More than a billion people - at least 25 times the population of Argentina - watched the 2018 final. A World Cup final draws ten times the viewers of a Super Bowl. It's not a close call.

The Miracle on Ice wasn't even on TV when it was being played. It was a hell of an upset but as a big hyped event, it's not in the top 10,000 sports events of the 20th century.
__________________
Providing useless posts since 1999!
  #31  
Old 12-02-2018, 05:05 PM
Atamasama's Avatar
Atamasama Atamasama is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,685
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickJay View Post
Any World Cup final is bigger than ANY national championship in any sport in any country. More than a billion people - at least 25 times the population of Argentina - watched the 2018 final. A World Cup final draws ten times the viewers of a Super Bowl. It's not a close call.

The Miracle on Ice wasn't even on TV when it was being played. It was a hell of an upset but as a big hyped event, it's not in the top 10,000 sports events of the 20th century.
Soccer/football (whatever you call it) is the biggest sport in the world so yes, I agree that nothing else is going to come close.
  #32  
Old 12-02-2018, 06:22 PM
Frodo's Avatar
Frodo Frodo is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Posts: 2,184
Biggest sports showdown in history? no, it much more important than that :P
  #33  
Old 12-02-2018, 08:45 PM
Jackknifed Juggernaut Jackknifed Juggernaut is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Lenni Lenape Land
Posts: 5,724
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickJay View Post
Any World Cup final is bigger than ANY national championship in any sport in any country. More than a billion people - at least 25 times the population of Argentina - watched the 2018 final. A World Cup final draws ten times the viewers of a Super Bowl. It's not a close call...
I can’t tell exactly what is being asked in the OP, but it seems to refer to the greatest rivalries. I’m not sure there have been enough World Cups to have real rivalries between countries. You could point to Brazil-Argentina or Germany-Holland, but they rarely meet in important World Cup games, and never in the World Cup final match. The biggest rivalries are generally within a league for club teams or within a continent for national teams. The OP refers to the Superclassico happening in the finals of the Copa Libertadores. This would be like Real Madrid facing FC Barcelona or Man United playing Liverpool in the final of the Champions League. So if the criterion is to have the most decorated and bitter rivals play for the most prestigious title in their sport, it’s hard to argue with Boca-River in the CL final.
__________________
"That's right. Even my feet have balls." Stephen Colbert 9/28/10
  #34  
Old 12-03-2018, 03:05 AM
polar bear polar bear is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,074
1974 was Holland germany in the WC Final. 14 years later it was the semi Final in the European cup. Both tournaments played in germany

Verstuurd vanaf mijn moto g(6) met Tapatalk
  #35  
Old 12-03-2018, 06:57 AM
Frodo's Avatar
Frodo Frodo is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Posts: 2,184
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frodo View Post
Biggest sports showdown in history? no, it much more important than that :P
ITS no it

On the other hand considering the behavior of the fans lately may be talking in caveman language is not out of place...
  #36  
Old 12-03-2018, 08:45 AM
cmkeller's Avatar
cmkeller cmkeller is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: New York, NY, USA
Posts: 13,203
Colibri:

Quote:
The biggest rivalries are Yankees-Red Sox, Giants-Dodgers, and Cardinals-Cubs.
Those that remain, true, but before 1958, Yankees-Dodgers and Yankees-Giants were darned big deals, and they met in the World Series quite a few times.
  #37  
Old 12-12-2018, 09:53 PM
Jackknifed Juggernaut Jackknifed Juggernaut is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Lenni Lenape Land
Posts: 5,724
By the way, the Final match was indeed played at the Bernabeu (home of Real Madrid). River Plate (the team that couldn’t play its home game due to fan violence) ended up winning its 4th Copa Libertadores. Interestingly, 4 of the top 5 teams with the most Copa championships are from Argentina, even if Brazil has the top league throughout the history of South American soccer. Independente has the most with 7, followed by Boca Juniors (the 2018 losing team) with 6.
__________________
"That's right. Even my feet have balls." Stephen Colbert 9/28/10
  #38  
Old 12-14-2018, 06:53 PM
ekedolphin ekedolphin is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Suffolk, VA
Posts: 4,562
Why would fans sneak flares into a soccer stadium, and why doesn't such a thing take place in America?
  #39  
Old 12-15-2018, 06:25 PM
Jackknifed Juggernaut Jackknifed Juggernaut is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Lenni Lenape Land
Posts: 5,724
Quote:
Originally Posted by ekedolphin View Post
Why would fans sneak flares into a soccer stadium, and why doesn't such a thing take place in America?
Better funded and more professional security?
__________________
"That's right. Even my feet have balls." Stephen Colbert 9/28/10
  #40  
Old 12-16-2018, 01:38 AM
Snarky_Kong Snarky_Kong is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,875
Quote:
Originally Posted by ekedolphin View Post
Why would fans sneak flares into a soccer stadium, and why doesn't such a thing take place in America?
It's happened before.

https://ssl.c.photoshelter.com/img-g...A111409218.jpg

I know the current owner of Chicago has tried (succeeded?) in preventing it though.
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:18 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright © 2018 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017