Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #201  
Old 03-23-2016, 11:36 AM
Chronos's Avatar
Chronos Chronos is offline
Charter Member
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: The Land of Cleves
Posts: 80,769
Interesting. For my playstyle (which is admittedly only tested against bots), Wailing Arrow is actually useless, because if there are enough enemy heroes present to make it worthwhile, it means that I'm neglecting my main role. In my games, team-fights are either 4 on 5 with my team winning anyway due to having a several-level advantage, or 4 on 4 or 3 due to the enemy team having to divert heroes to deal with an advancing army. I guess humans are just better at picking off an opposing solo Sylvanas before she can steamroll an entire lane.
  #202  
Old 03-23-2016, 01:22 PM
RandMcnally RandMcnally is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 7,740
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
Interesting. For my playstyle (which is admittedly only tested against bots), Wailing Arrow is actually useless, because if there are enough enemy heroes present to make it worthwhile, it means that I'm neglecting my main role. In my games, team-fights are either 4 on 5 with my team winning anyway due to having a several-level advantage, or 4 on 4 or 3 due to the enemy team having to divert heroes to deal with an advancing army. I guess humans are just better at picking off an opposing solo Sylvanas before she can steamroll an entire lane.
I honestly can't remember a game where Sylvanas was that effective of a split pusher. Yeah, she's good early game and she's amazing when she's pushing with you. but I she isn't that great at getting a level advantage (unlike Abathur or TLV).

Plus, Wailing Arrow is so very good in a teamfight. A properly timed silence can change the entire game.


I'm on the vast majority of night. We should play QM together.
  #203  
Old 03-23-2016, 01:30 PM
Johnny Bravo's Avatar
Johnny Bravo Johnny Bravo is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: The Swamp
Posts: 7,584
Sylvanus isn't a great split pusher because she has to be in the lane to do her job, even when she has the pushing ult. Azmodan, Abathur, and TLV all have the ability to influence multiple lanes at once, forcing the enemy team to put out multiple fires at one time.

If you're past level 10 and pushing by yourself, either you're going to get ganked (because you're out of position) or your team is going to get into a 4v5 fight and lose (because you're out of position).

Last edited by Johnny Bravo; 03-23-2016 at 01:32 PM.
  #204  
Old 03-23-2016, 05:23 PM
Chronos's Avatar
Chronos Chronos is offline
Charter Member
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: The Land of Cleves
Posts: 80,769
Yeah, I can see how a well-played Vikings could be the ultimate for XP advantage. I just can't play them well, because it feels like the control scheme just doesn't work right for them. And it doesn't feel like they do much besides XP advantage.

And while Wailing Arrow is obviously great if you can get it off in a teamfight, it just feels misplaced on Syl. She's got almost nothing else for fighting against other heroes, without the damage of an assassin or the durability of a warrior. The talents to slow heroes and to make enemies vulnerable are useful, of course, but don't come online until levels 13 and 16.
  #205  
Old 03-23-2016, 08:19 PM
Jragon's Avatar
Jragon Jragon is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Miskatonic University
Posts: 10,448
I have done a few successful split pushes as Sylvanas, but mostly on Battlefield of Eternity, and even then only if my team has enough of an advantage that they don't need me.

My favorite team to play with my friend though is "team push" which is Sylvanas+Azomodan/Gazlowe, which melts lanes. It's not the most effective team, but it's fun. (I only play QM, though)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
Yeah, I can see how a well-played Vikings could be the ultimate for XP advantage. I just can't play them well, because it feels like the control scheme just doesn't work right for them. And it doesn't feel like they do much besides XP advantage.

And while Wailing Arrow is obviously great if you can get it off in a teamfight, it just feels misplaced on Syl. She's got almost nothing else for fighting against other heroes, without the damage of an assassin or the durability of a warrior. The talents to slow heroes and to make enemies vulnerable are useful, of course, but don't come online until levels 13 and 16.
The Lost Vikings actually has the highest consistent win rate of any hero in ranked (I say consistent to exclude imbalanced newly released/rebalanced heroes which generally drop off after a few patches). Higher level ranked players are very good at shutting down split vikings, but they can still get enough of an EXP boost to be worth it. The XP lead is actually huge in this game. Especially since there are no items or last hit mechanics. (Also, don't underestimate them in a teamfight)

Sylvanas is generally played as an assassin that can kind of push. She's basically the Tyrande of specialists (where Tyrande is basically an assassin that heals). When I play her it's not uncommon for me to top both hero and siege unless there's a hyper-specialized hero with me (like a Kael without a counter or an Azmodan).

Speaking of which, my 4-man premade the other night fought the literal worst 5-man premade. It was a vikings comp and I called out their strat after I got ganked top a few times, as well as a few other ganks in other lanes. The strategy was they only soaked with vikings and went roaming as a 4-man. We actually won, but I think it was largely because we called their strategy and explicitly countered it. For instance, I was using Brightwing's map presence to soak because I could be all the way across the map on Sky Temple and then in a teamfight as soon as it was starting.

Last edited by Jragon; 03-23-2016 at 08:23 PM.
  #206  
Old 03-23-2016, 08:26 PM
Chronos's Avatar
Chronos Chronos is offline
Charter Member
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: The Land of Cleves
Posts: 80,769
Hm, I've often wondered about that strategy. Though Brightwing (and maybe Falstad, Abathur, and a few other highly-mobile heroes) would be especially well-suited to counter it. Zip over to their isolated vikings, and kill them one by one.
  #207  
Old 03-24-2016, 09:02 AM
SenorBeef SenorBeef is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 27,615
There should be a rapid, automatic ban system for the reporting system, otherwise it feels toothless. I started game, and there was a guy in it who was silenced, who just fed. Ran right into the towers and died over and over. 3 games later, I got the same guy on my team, he did the same thing. That means for at least like an hour and a half or two hours, the guy did nothing but wreck other people's games. Surely a bunch of people reported him for feeding. If 16 independent people report you for feed in the span of 4 games, why wouldn't it automatically ban you, or at least suspend you for a week?

I managed to actually bottom out in rank 40 in hero league, which is pathetic. I was working my way up, got up to level 36, and then on game 1 I got the feeder guy, on game 4 I got the feeder guy again, and on game 5 I got a guy who was AFK for the first 4 minutes of the match and his bot couldn't keep up so we lost that one too. 3/5 games where someone on my team intentionally lost. So now I'm in a hole again, through no fault of my own.
  #208  
Old 03-31-2016, 08:31 AM
Johnny Bravo's Avatar
Johnny Bravo Johnny Bravo is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: The Swamp
Posts: 7,584
Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorBeef View Post
There should be a rapid, automatic ban system for the reporting system, otherwise it feels toothless.
That's never going to be implemented because every toxic player is also toxic when it comes to putting in false reports.

DOTA does have a system where getting a certain number of reports puts you into a low-priority pool for a certain number of matches, which means your wait times go up drastically and you only get matched with other people who are in the "shit queue."

Each player also has a limited number of reports (limiting false report potential), though I don't recall how often they refresh. Also, every now and then you log into the game and get a message that says something like, "we have taken action against a player you previously reported, thank you for contributing to the community," which is really satisfying.

I don't know if Blizzard feels that they don't have the playerbase to support a low-priority pool or what, but I agree that they need to do something to automate punishments for behavior other than abusive chat. I know that League of Legends has some kind of 'player tribunal' where trusted player volunteers look over game logs to mete out administrative punishment, but I'm not sure I can picture a huge company like Blizzard doing that.

In other news, the new HL draft system is awesome. Sure, it's pretty much Li Ming and Xul getting banned every time, but the second round of bans are usually a bit more interesting. It's also lead to more chatting during the draft process, which leads to a more cohesive team overall.

Last edited by Johnny Bravo; 03-31-2016 at 08:31 AM.
  #209  
Old 03-31-2016, 09:13 AM
SenorBeef SenorBeef is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 27,615
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Bravo View Post
That's never going to be implemented because every toxic player is also toxic when it comes to putting in false reports.
They'd have the reporting data for everyone, so they could easily compensate for that. I'm not saying "ban everyone after they receive X reports", but rather a more sophisticated model that weighted reports. If a guy reports all his teammates 75% of the time, you can safely throw away all of his reports. But on the other hand, if you have a guy who only reports less than 1% of his teammates, you could assume his reports - if they correlated with other reports - were pretty meaningful. Since they'd have a large, independent sample size of reports as well as the individual reporting history of both the people doing the reporting and being reported, it would be fairly easy to create a robust system that punished legitimate offenders.

You wouldn't have to go straight to bans. Maybe a shit tier queue would be okay (although HOTS doesn't have the numbers LoL/dota do as far as having different queues), or even just 24/72 hour bans to get the attention of offenders. I do like the idea of toxic queues where all the toxic players get matched together, but I'm not sure what the HOTS player base is like. DOTA 2 peaks around a million people and LoL peaks somewhere around 3-4m. What does HOTS do?
  #210  
Old 03-31-2016, 09:45 AM
Johnny Bravo's Avatar
Johnny Bravo Johnny Bravo is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: The Swamp
Posts: 7,584
Blizzard has been completely opaque about it. I think the only concrete number they ever released was that 11 million players signed up for the beta which, of course, means nothing.
  #211  
Old 03-31-2016, 10:01 AM
SenorBeef SenorBeef is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 27,615
So since bans came out, the player with the highest MMR on your team gets to pick bans.

I've played 8 games. In 3 of them, I've been the highest rated player. I'm hovering between ranks 36-40 - the lowest you can go in the game. And yet in these 3 games where I've been the top MMR, I've played with people who were as high as rank 28 (when I was 38), and when I do have the highest MMR I am usually the lowest ranked member on the team.

How does this make sense? Now rank doesn't tie exactly to MMR. They say their ranks are roughly meant to tell you where you stand amongst ranked players, with each rank representing 2% of the population, but I'm not sure that's actually true, especially since you can't fall in rank between 40 and 50. But MMR should roughly correlate with rank - since it should place you in an MMR that gets you a 50% winrate, you should stabilize against other people of a similar MMR/rank once you've found your right place.

Obviously ranks can't be analogous to MMR divisions (like bronze/silver/etc in starcraft), because it doesn't make sense for the guys who I beat in MMR to be 10 ranks higher than me.

If I'm in freefall, and the game thinks I'm utter shit, and I'm hovering around the lowest rank, why is it putting me into teams where I'm the best player? I have a 41% win rate, and yet it's giving me 4 teammates who are lower than me. And how are these teammates who are lower than me in MMR significantly better in terms of ranks (and therefore win rates)?

There seems to be some weird systematic bias trying to keep me at a 40% win rate, so that my rank is artificially depressed and I have a higher MMR than people 10 ranks higher than me.

Last edited by SenorBeef; 03-31-2016 at 10:02 AM.
  #212  
Old 03-31-2016, 10:12 AM
Johnny Bravo's Avatar
Johnny Bravo Johnny Bravo is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: The Swamp
Posts: 7,584
My understanding of the most accepted working theory is that the game tries to push you towards your hidden "true" (not hotslogs) MMR. So if you get placed at rank 35 but your hidden MMR thinks you should be around rank 29, you'll get more points per win. If the game thinks you're in the right place, it only awards around 100 points for a win (same as a loss). But a player who is smurfing, or who has had a lucky run, or who is just relatively newly ranked, can have a much higher rank than MMR. Especially around our shitty ranks.

When you get into a HL match with somebody ranked way higher than you, it's usually because the system is trying to normalize out other factors. For example, I'm currently rank 33. I often queue with a buddy who is ranked 16. That means that when we go in together, we usually end up in matches with three other guys in the mid 20s. The game doesn't seem to care so much about individual numbers, but about getting the overall rank/MMR of each team even.

Next time you end up in a match with a player ranked significantly higher than you, look to see if he's grouped with somebody else. That's often the reason why.

Last edited by Johnny Bravo; 03-31-2016 at 10:14 AM.
  #213  
Old 03-31-2016, 06:00 PM
RandMcnally RandMcnally is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 7,740
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Bravo View Post
That's never going to be implemented because every toxic player is also toxic when it comes to putting in false reports.

DOTA does have a system where getting a certain number of reports puts you into a low-priority pool for a certain number of matches, which means your wait times go up drastically and you only get matched with other people who are in the "shit queue."

Each player also has a limited number of reports (limiting false report potential), though I don't recall how often they refresh. Also, every now and then you log into the game and get a message that says something like, "we have taken action against a player you previously reported, thank you for contributing to the community," which is really satisfying.

I don't know if Blizzard feels that they don't have the playerbase to support a low-priority pool or what, but I agree that they need to do something to automate punishments for behavior other than abusive chat. I know that League of Legends has some kind of 'player tribunal' where trusted player volunteers look over game logs to mete out administrative punishment, but I'm not sure I can picture a huge company like Blizzard doing that.

In other news, the new HL draft system is awesome. Sure, it's pretty much Li Ming and Xul getting banned every time, but the second round of bans are usually a bit more interesting. It's also lead to more chatting during the draft process, which leads to a more cohesive team overall.

Interesting time to have this conversation, as this article just came out yesterday: Can a video game company tame toxic behaviour?
  #214  
Old 03-31-2016, 10:55 PM
SenorBeef SenorBeef is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 27,615
Played with Rand and a couple of other guys today. We decided to do an all specialist team just for the hell of it. Had Murky, Abathur, Gazlowe and Xul - the other person it paired us with ended up being Lili. We faced Li-Ming, Xul, Valla, Lunara, and Lili.

That composition should've beat us easily. And we got the worst map for our novelty comp - towers of doom.

And yet somehow we totally crushed them, up 3 levels most of the game, kills were 33-9, just utter domination. One of the weirdest games I've ever seen.
  #215  
Old 04-01-2016, 11:00 AM
Chronos's Avatar
Chronos Chronos is offline
Charter Member
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: The Land of Cleves
Posts: 80,769
Huh, weird. My favorite characters are all specialists, and I hate Towers of Doom for just that reason. The only way to win by pushing is to control all six towers, which requires you to be much better than the other team (in case you didn't know, controlling all six gives you one free shot every second or so).

Speaking of which, you know what I'd like to see, now that there are 11 maps in the game? Map vetoes. Every player can choose one map to veto, and the map is chosen from among those that nobody has vetoed (you need 11 maps in the game to make this work, just in case of the unlikely event that everyone chooses a different one). Then, they can track if any one map is getting the lion's share of the vetoes, and use that to guide development of future maps, and maybe rotate out that one once they release another. If they had this, I would totally veto Towers.
  #216  
Old 04-03-2016, 01:01 PM
RandMcnally RandMcnally is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 7,740
I think I'm done with Hero League. I completed my placement matches matches and was placed into rank 6. I honestly can't see me getting higher and I don't want to lose it. Silly, I know. But still...
  #217  
Old 04-03-2016, 03:44 PM
magnusblitz magnusblitz is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 2,257
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
Speaking of which, you know what I'd like to see, now that there are 11 maps in the game? Map vetoes.
Well, there's only really 9 right now, since Lost Cavern (the one-lane map for ARAMs) and Haunted Mines aren't in rotation.
  #218  
Old 04-03-2016, 09:33 PM
Chronos's Avatar
Chronos Chronos is offline
Charter Member
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: The Land of Cleves
Posts: 80,769
Obviously, if they implemented the idea, they'd put them back into rotation. Though I didn't know Lost Cavern wasn't actually in rotation: That would explain why it hasn't yet come up for me.

And what are ARAMs?
  #219  
Old 04-03-2016, 09:54 PM
Tabby_Cat Tabby_Cat is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: No Gum Here
Posts: 2,950
All Random All Mid. Basically a huge teamfight in mid, all the time.
  #220  
Old 04-03-2016, 09:57 PM
SenorBeef SenorBeef is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 27,615
They should've made a separate queue for it so people could play it just as a novelty mode. As it is, you can only use it as a custom game with friends - so you need 9 other people with you to play it, which obviously isn't terribly easy. It would've made a fun blowing off steam mode if they'd let people queue.
  #221  
Old 04-03-2016, 10:08 PM
Tabby_Cat Tabby_Cat is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: No Gum Here
Posts: 2,950
There's supposed to be an arena mode (?) http://kotaku.com/blizzard-announces...sto-1741043866

I'll think about getting back in then, but on paper at least it sounds interesting, a more pick up and play game as opposed to the drudge a full on MOBA game has (and I know HOTS is already a lot more streamlined than usual MOBAs).

I was only ever interested in the teamfights anyway.
  #222  
Old 04-03-2016, 11:25 PM
RandMcnally RandMcnally is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 7,740
Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorBeef View Post
They should've made a separate queue for it so people could play it just as a novelty mode. As it is, you can only use it as a custom game with friends - so you need 9 other people with you to play it, which obviously isn't terribly easy. It would've made a fun blowing off steam mode if they'd let people queue.
There's an ARAM channel you can join that's always looking for people.
  #223  
Old 04-04-2016, 08:12 AM
Johnny Bravo's Avatar
Johnny Bravo Johnny Bravo is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: The Swamp
Posts: 7,584
Yep, and if nobody seems to be actively recruiting for a game there's pretty good odds that there's at least nine people waiting for somebody to make one. Create a game and then type [lobby] into the ARAM channel chat. That'll throw a link into the chat so that people can go right into your lobby.

I've played probably 30 or 40 ARAM games. They're a great way to play stress-free, and I like teamfighting with characters I don't necessarily get to play with much. I did end up buying Gazlowe just to expand my pool of specialists, though, after a three-game streak of being forced to play Abathur (who is not great on that map).
  #224  
Old 04-04-2016, 08:19 AM
Johnny Bravo's Avatar
Johnny Bravo Johnny Bravo is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: The Swamp
Posts: 7,584
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
Speaking of which, you know what I'd like to see, now that there are 11 maps in the game? Map vetoes. Every player can choose one map to veto, and the map is chosen from among those that nobody has vetoed (you need 11 maps in the game to make this work, just in case of the unlikely event that everyone chooses a different one). Then, they can track if any one map is getting the lion's share of the vetoes, and use that to guide development of future maps, and maybe rotate out that one once they release another. If they had this, I would totally veto Towers.
Not going to happen. Players would just veto based on their character picks. Some characters are better on certain maps and worse on others.

I suppose it wouldn't make much difference on AI mode, but even there people would just veto maps that take longer to win (like Towers). The data would be useless for driving development.
  #225  
Old 04-04-2016, 09:58 AM
Chronos's Avatar
Chronos Chronos is offline
Charter Member
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: The Land of Cleves
Posts: 80,769
And the problem with that is? If I don't think a particular map is going to be fun for me, does it matter why it won't be fun? It's not like I can just pick a character who's good on one and only one map: There's still 90% of maps that might be in play, and I have to be prepared to play on any of them. Is anyone really saying "I hope we get Towers against a team with a lot of specialists, so we can kick their butt"?

And if they're planning on adding an "arena mode", that's just one more proof that this genre of games needs a better name.
  #226  
Old 04-04-2016, 10:30 AM
Johnny Bravo's Avatar
Johnny Bravo Johnny Bravo is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: The Swamp
Posts: 7,584
The point is that you want the ability to veto maps to make the game more enjoyable, but you are also not Blizzard's target demographic. Most people would just use map vetoes strategically. Premade groups of even three players would have pretty good odds of being able to always choose which map to kick out of the rotation. It would completely change the meta of the game.

So like I said, it may not be a big deal for AI matches, but your perceived benefit (that it would inform development of future maps) wouldn't be there because folks who only play AI matches aren't really on Blizzard's radar. HL/TL and competitive balance will always be first and foremost in their mind. Those changes will trickle down to QM players next. AI matches are just sort of... there. Their main purpose for probably 95+% of the playerbase is to knock out quests as quickly as possible. Very few people use it as the baseline game.

I'm not trying to be dismissive of your playstyle, mind you, and if I'm coming off that way I apologize in advance. I'm HL rank 33, so in terms of Blizzard's radar I don't matter any more than you do.

Last edited by Johnny Bravo; 04-04-2016 at 10:35 AM.
  #227  
Old 04-04-2016, 12:42 PM
Chronos's Avatar
Chronos Chronos is offline
Charter Member
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: The Land of Cleves
Posts: 80,769
Yes, of course players would use it strategically. I still don't see what the problem is with that. Who wants to see a game where one side wins because the other had a hero composition that's good in general, but is just weak on that particular map? I wouldn't want to be on either side of a game like that.
  #228  
Old 04-04-2016, 03:19 PM
Johnny Bravo's Avatar
Johnny Bravo Johnny Bravo is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: The Swamp
Posts: 7,584
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
Who wants to see a game where one side wins because the other had a hero composition that's good in general, but is just weak on that particular map? I wouldn't want to be on either side of a game like that.
Less players want to see a game where a premade 5-stack is able to consistently veto a map that they'd have a disadvantage on. In any case it's moot, since HL matches show the map that's being played on before the draft occurs and adjusting to a random map is part of the gameplay.

Like I said, it would be perfectly fine for AI matches. I would not complain or be upset to see it implemented. I wouldn't be happy to see it in PvP matches because premade stacks already have enough of an outsized influence as is.
  #229  
Old 04-04-2016, 03:52 PM
Chronos's Avatar
Chronos Chronos is offline
Charter Member
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: The Land of Cleves
Posts: 80,769
Oh, and I think you might have misunderstood my original idea, given your talk of teams doing this "consistently". My proposal was a veto, not a vote, so if even a single player didn't like a particular map, it wouldn't be used. Though I expect that you'd find that even more distasteful.

I didn't know, though, that HL let you see what map you're on before you choose heroes. That would simultaneously blunt my annoyance at getting a bad map for my character, and your objection that people would veto maps based on what character they're using. I will admit to being a bit puzzled why they would use different systems for the two modes, though.
  #230  
Old 04-04-2016, 04:01 PM
Johnny Bravo's Avatar
Johnny Bravo Johnny Bravo is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: The Swamp
Posts: 7,584
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
Though I expect that you'd find that even more distasteful.
Oh my, yes. That sounds just awful.

One of the reasons I play HotS as opposed to DotA is because of the map rotation. A straight veto just means that the least popular 50% of maps would never get played. It would effectively cut the map rotation in half, and possibly by as much as two thirds.
  #231  
Old 04-04-2016, 04:12 PM
Chronos's Avatar
Chronos Chronos is offline
Charter Member
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: The Land of Cleves
Posts: 80,769
OK, how about this, then? Each player gets to choose one map to veto, and then if any map has at least one veto from each team, it's taken out of rotation for that match. This wouldn't give premade teams significantly more power than individuals, and it would only take out maps with some degree of consensus against them.

I like the variation of maps, too, but that doesn't change the fact that I think some are better-designed than others. I'd rather see a few good maps than a few good maps plus a few bad ones.

And how different is this than player-chosen hero bans, which they've also now implemented? There, too, it's the same heroes that keep getting chosen, and there's a reason for that.
  #232  
Old 04-04-2016, 04:15 PM
RandMcnally RandMcnally is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 7,740
Yeah, in QM a veto sounds horrible. I don't see the point in HL. You already build your team/bans off the map.
  #233  
Old 04-04-2016, 05:43 PM
Johnny Bravo's Avatar
Johnny Bravo Johnny Bravo is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: The Swamp
Posts: 7,584
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
And how different is this than player-chosen hero bans, which they've also now implemented? There, too, it's the same heroes that keep getting chosen, and there's a reason for that.
Probably not the reasons you think.

Remember what I said before, about how everything trickles down from the competitive scene. Bans were implemented in pro tournaments long before they made it into HL. In pro matches, the initial bans are based on denying particular strengths to the enemy team. Dignitas knows that mYinsanity likes to field Rehgar on this particular map, so they ban. mYinsanity knows that Dignitas has been fielding a particular character duo, so they ban out half of it.

In HL, none of that knowledge is there. So you just have to ban high-impact characters for the initial two bans. On the other hand, the second line of bans are much more interesting and can still be adjusted for team compositions. It's a very interesting process.
  #234  
Old 04-04-2016, 06:20 PM
Chronos's Avatar
Chronos Chronos is offline
Charter Member
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: The Land of Cleves
Posts: 80,769
Ah, I think I see the distinction. Hero bans are a dynamic process, with further hero choices and bans in response to the previous ones. But a map is only chosen once per game, so there's not that opportunity for response and counter-response. Is that about right?

Though of course, it can also be as simple as "I like playing Hero X, but Hero Y is really good against X, so let's ban Y".
  #235  
Old 04-04-2016, 06:32 PM
RandMcnally RandMcnally is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 7,740
This weekend (April 8) every hero will be free.
  #236  
Old 04-04-2016, 06:53 PM
Chronos's Avatar
Chronos Chronos is offline
Charter Member
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: The Land of Cleves
Posts: 80,769
Wait, as in on rotation until the end of the weekend, or as in obtain them this weekend, and then keep them forever? I only just recently built up enough gold to be able to afford every hero I might conceivably ever want, and that was kind of neat, but if it's the latter, that takes some of the luster off of it.
  #237  
Old 04-04-2016, 06:58 PM
Chronos's Avatar
Chronos Chronos is offline
Charter Member
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: The Land of Cleves
Posts: 80,769
Ah, OK, it looks like it's just on rotation that weekend, if I'm reading that correctly. That's cool, it'll give me a chance to get Abathur up to level 5, and try out Xul and Dehaka.
  #238  
Old 04-06-2016, 04:00 AM
SenorBeef SenorBeef is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 27,615
Since I have discovered the joys of Ravenous Spirit Nazeebo, I'm 3-0 in QM and and 6-1 in hero league for a combined 9-1. In most games I lead in hero damage even over the assassins and had 0-2 deaths and lead total damage in more than half (hard to outdamage xul in siege).
  #239  
Old 04-06-2016, 06:11 AM
Jragon's Avatar
Jragon Jragon is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Miskatonic University
Posts: 10,448
Ravenous Spirit is good, but like any channeled ability (and especially ult) it's shut down hard by CC if the enemy has a chance to get it off (obviously depending on team comp, your team's skill, your skill at positioning etc).
  #240  
Old 04-06-2016, 04:51 PM
SenorBeef SenorBeef is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 27,615
Yeah, the stats say the gargantuan is better - or that better players pick gargantuan - which usually are the same thing although you can't tease that out of the data available on hotslogs. And maybe it's because I'm playing 1300 MMR people and not good players and so they're easier to exploit. But I've been dominating with it.

I linger on the edge of the battle, throwing in spiders and toads, and when the enemy commits onto one of us to attack and groups up, that's when I get in range as out of the way as I can and cast it on the group. Someone has only gone out of their way to stun me maybe twice so far. It's also obviously really good for the pursuit phase, especially once upgraded - enemies running away with low health can't do anything to escape it. I especially love getting people with it after we've broken off the pursuit because they've ran past their bases.

The level 20 upgrade says it increases the range by 50% and speed by 30% - does range in this case mean the casting range, or the range of the AOE effect? I wish their language was a little more unambiguous.
  #241  
Old 04-06-2016, 05:29 PM
SenorBeef SenorBeef is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 27,615
Idea for the weekend: Get a 3 day stimpack and get every hero in the game up to level 5 in a couple of games each. Big gold influx.
  #242  
Old 04-06-2016, 05:36 PM
RandMcnally RandMcnally is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 7,740
Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorBeef View Post
Idea for the weekend: Get a 3 day stimpack and get every hero in the game up to level 5 in a couple of games each. Big gold influx.
You'll already have a stim pack.
  #243  
Old 04-06-2016, 06:09 PM
SenorBeef SenorBeef is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 27,615
You mean the bonus xp weekend? I'm wondering if that stacks multiplicatively with a stimpack.
  #244  
Old 04-06-2016, 08:49 PM
Johnny Bravo's Avatar
Johnny Bravo Johnny Bravo is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: The Swamp
Posts: 7,584
I think I saw on Reddit that it's additive rather than multiplicative.
  #245  
Old 04-06-2016, 10:34 PM
Chronos's Avatar
Chronos Chronos is offline
Charter Member
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: The Land of Cleves
Posts: 80,769
I'm definitely planning on fiving a few heroes, though I already have most of them done just from the regular free rotation. I'm going to make sure to pick up at least Abathur, though, and probably try for Dehaka too if I can manage it. Unfortunately I have a few things going on this weekend, so I won't be able to completely splurge it.

On the topic of Nazeebo's heroics, Gargantuan is probably also better for less-skilled players, just because it's more autonomous. I expect that if you're playing against equal-skill opponents, there's a fairly narrow band where the spirit is better. Though if you're playing against inferior opponents, that band might be wider.

Oh, and with the free rotation, I see what everyone means about Xul being overpowered. A game the other day, on Battlefield of Eternity, the majority of my team and the big angel were on the bottom lane, while I was on top... and I was still pushing through forts at the same speed that they were. Even with easy AI opponents, that shouldn't be possible. And what were they thinking, giving him four basic abilities? Nobody else gets that. And Sweeping Strike: He's got an ability that can clear an entire minion-wave with a single cast, and it debuffs enemy heroes? Where did that even come from, anyway? The D2 character didn't have anything remotely like that. Overall, he feels like one of the better specialists, while simultaneously being a decent warrior and a half-decent assassin.
  #246  
Old 04-07-2016, 12:21 AM
RandMcnally RandMcnally is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 7,740
Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorBeef View Post
If I'm in freefall, and the game thinks I'm utter shit, and I'm hovering around the lowest rank, why is it putting me into teams where I'm the best player? I have a 41% win rate, and yet it's giving me 4 teammates who are lower than me. And how are these teammates who are lower than me in MMR significantly better in terms of ranks (and therefore win rates)?
So I played three games tonight by myself in my old account. Holy shit dude, you do not belong at that level. You are miles, miles above the people I had to my team. They were doing stupid shit like, "hey, the enemy team just wiped out a bunch of my team and I'm the first one up. I'm going to go to exactly where that all happened...yup, they're still there."

We were on BHB, completely tied, no forts, enemy is in the middle of getting the boss, Li Ming heads towards the enemy core (which was the right play) but a few guys decide to contest boss despite the fact that our entire team isn't there and their core is empty.

So besides basic map awareness issues (I swear these people have the minimap turned off or something) the biggest issues I've seen is people don't know when the end the fucking game. If 3-4 of the enemy team is down past 25 minutes or so and your team is up and grouped? Attack the core. Don't get all the mercs or wait until the objective is up. End the game. These people don't get that.

But yeah, you're way better than them.
  #247  
Old 04-07-2016, 12:41 AM
SenorBeef SenorBeef is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 27,615
Thanks. I wasn't saying I was great, I was just saying I didn't belong at the level where everyone was completely clueless. The game seemed to be deliberately trying to keep me down around a 41% winrate by continuously pairing me up with awful players.

You didn't even see the worst of it - your bad account has an mmr or 1600 or so, and at my worst I got down to 950. I've since climbed back up to 1200 or so. The difference between 1600 and 950 is huge - not only do people make huge fundamental mistakes that level, but they make inexplicably stupid mistakes like running into towers and dying when they're soloing a lane or constantly turning around and going back into a fight with 3% hp.
  #248  
Old 04-07-2016, 04:29 PM
Chronos's Avatar
Chronos Chronos is offline
Charter Member
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: The Land of Cleves
Posts: 80,769
Blackheart's Bay is one of the few situations where I might not go after an empty core: If there are enough pirates and mercenaries available to buy the cannons, and if the minion-waves aren't pushed too far back already, then go for the cannons (a single round of which will kill an unprotected core, anyway).

But I didn't even realize that map had a boss, because I can't imagine a situation when it would ever be worth going after.
  #249  
Old 04-07-2016, 04:47 PM
Jragon's Avatar
Jragon Jragon is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Miskatonic University
Posts: 10,448
Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorBeef View Post
Thanks. I wasn't saying I was great, I was just saying I didn't belong at the level where everyone was completely clueless. The game seemed to be deliberately trying to keep me down around a 41% winrate by continuously pairing me up with awful players.

You didn't even see the worst of it - your bad account has an mmr or 1600 or so, and at my worst I got down to 950. I've since climbed back up to 1200 or so. The difference between 1600 and 950 is huge - not only do people make huge fundamental mistakes that level, but they make inexplicably stupid mistakes like running into towers and dying when they're soloing a lane or constantly turning around and going back into a fight with 3% hp.
Iunno, going back to fight with 3% HP is definitely something you can pull off, but you have to A be the right character (like Artanis) and B know how to position and what you're doing. Something 950 people haven't mastered. Sometimes when you're winning, esp as an assassin, it's absolutely the right call to stay around and help mop up.

Even at MMR 2000 though, people WILL NOT END THE FUCKING GAME.
  #250  
Old 04-07-2016, 05:38 PM
RandMcnally RandMcnally is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 7,740
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
Blackheart's Bay is one of the few situations where I might not go after an empty core: If there are enough pirates and mercenaries available to buy the cannons, and if the minion-waves aren't pushed too far back already, then go for the cannons (a single round of which will kill an unprotected core, anyway).

But I didn't even realize that map had a boss, because I can't imagine a situation when it would ever be worth going after.
No dude, you need to end the game as soon as you can. It's a horrible habit to get into waiting for the objective to pop. I've lost way too many games because people do that, the enemy gets a pick or two, then they push to win. Comebacks happen.

Well, if anyone wants to create another account to see if they're better this weekend is the time to do it.
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:42 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright 2018 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017