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  #51  
Old 02-15-2018, 01:07 PM
Czarcasm Czarcasm is online now
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No - I think it was supposed to be perfumed.

Oddly enough, the Bible gives the exact recipe for making the stuff (allegedly handed down by God himself!). See Exodus 30:22-25:
I wouldn't call it an exact recipe because we don't know what the price per ounce was for any of those, do we?
  #52  
Old 02-15-2018, 01:12 PM
Malthus Malthus is offline
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I wouldn't call it an exact recipe because we don't know what the price per ounce was for any of those, do we?
"Shekel" is a weight, not a price in this case.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblic...ight_and_coins

1 shekel = 15.86 grams (0.51 troy ounces).

Way we get "shekel" to mean "price" is this: the Bible was composed of stories that predate standardized coinage. Originally, a "shekel" was a particular weight of silver, not a milled coin.

Last edited by Malthus; 02-15-2018 at 01:14 PM.
  #53  
Old 02-15-2018, 01:20 PM
Czarcasm Czarcasm is online now
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"Shekel" is a weight, not a price in this case.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblic...ight_and_coins

1 shekel = 15.86 grams (0.51 troy ounces).

Way we get "shekel" to mean "price" is this: the Bible was composed of stories that predate standardized coinage. Originally, a "shekel" was a particular weight of silver, not a milled coin.
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  #54  
Old 02-15-2018, 01:43 PM
Malthus Malthus is offline
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[Johnny Carson]I did not know that![JC] Thanks.
It's an interesting area.

Apparently, standardized units of value based on particular standard weights of precious metals was the stage right before the creation of government-issued coinage.

As you can imagine, the temptation to cheat must have been great ... coins are useful at least in part because they are harder to cheat with than (say) a weighed bag of irregular bits of (alleged) silver.

In the OT, the writers sometimes specify prices as "shekels of silver", and sometimes just "shekels".
  #55  
Old 02-15-2018, 06:26 PM
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"Shekel" is a weight, not a price in this case.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblic...ight_and_coins

1 shekel = 15.86 grams (0.51 troy ounces).

Way we get "shekel" to mean "price" is this: the Bible was composed of stories that predate standardized coinage. Originally, a "shekel" was a particular weight of silver, not a milled coin.
Yes. The pound, the lira, the mark and no doubt many other currency units are named from measures of weight.
  #56  
Old 02-16-2018, 08:28 AM
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... coins are useful at least in part because they are harder to cheat with than (say) a weighed bag of irregular bits of (alleged) silver. ...
Unless of course you have a "Eureka!" moment.
  #57  
Old 02-16-2018, 08:52 AM
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I love the SDMB--where else can a question about the Messiah turn into a weight and measures discussion?
  #58  
Old 02-16-2018, 09:03 AM
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I love the SDMB--where else can a question about the Messiah turn into a weight and measures discussion?
He's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy.

And the obligatory Monty Python reference.
  #59  
Old 02-16-2018, 07:36 PM
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Jewish Messiah

Thanks everyone for an interesting discussion. I only have one thing to add. My old Rabbi used used to say, "When we beat our swords into pruning hooks...and lions lay with lambs...THEN, the Messiah will have come. THEN it will be a Messianic Age".
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Old 02-16-2018, 08:45 PM
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Thanks everyone for an interesting discussion. I only have one thing to add. My old Rabbi used used to say, "When we beat our swords into pruning hooks...and lions lay with lambs...THEN, the Messiah will have come. THEN it will be a Messianic Age".
And of course the sage Woody Allen added the commentary: "... and the lion will lie down with the lamb, but the lamb won’t get much sleep ..."
  #61  
Old 02-17-2018, 09:17 AM
John Mace John Mace is offline
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I love the SDMB--where else can a question about the Messiah turn into a weight and measures discussion?
There are tons of threads like this.
  #62  
Old 02-18-2018, 05:56 AM
tim314 tim314 is offline
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Somehow this never occurred to me to ask until now, but when did the belief that "the Messiah will rebuild the Temple" come about? If this predates the construction (or at least the destruction) of the Second Temple, then what did people think it meant during Second Temple times?
  #63  
Old 02-18-2018, 07:14 AM
MichaelEmouse MichaelEmouse is online now
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Somehow this never occurred to me to ask until now, but when did the belief that "the Messiah will rebuild the Temple" come about? If this predates the construction (or at least the destruction) of the Second Temple, then what did people think it meant during Second Temple times?
Likely around the time of the exile to Babylon (book of Jeremiah and Zechariah). The Messiah would have mirrored Moses' role in bringing Jews back from captivity in a foreign land and renewing the religion.

It does mean that either there was a rebuilding of the Temple without messiah, there was a messiah around 500BC or that throughout the life of the Second Temple, the Hebrews expected their current Temple to be destroyed.

Last edited by MichaelEmouse; 02-18-2018 at 07:17 AM.
  #64  
Old 02-19-2018, 11:22 AM
Malthus Malthus is offline
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Likely around the time of the exile to Babylon (book of Jeremiah and Zechariah). The Messiah would have mirrored Moses' role in bringing Jews back from captivity in a foreign land and renewing the religion.

It does mean that either there was a rebuilding of the Temple without messiah, there was a messiah around 500BC or that throughout the life of the Second Temple, the Hebrews expected their current Temple to be destroyed.
There was a messiah.

The messiah of the time was the man responsible for ending the Babylonian Captivity and returning the Jews from exile - and (allegedly) for funding the rebuilding of the Temple: namely, Cyrus the Persian.

He's specifically identified as a messiah in Isaiah 45:1-3:

Quote:
Thus says the Lord to his anointed, to Cyrus, whom he has taken by his right hand to subdue nations before him and strip the loins of kings, to force gateways before him that their gates be closed no more: I will go before you levelling the heights. I will shatter the bronze gateways, smash the iron bars. I will give you the hidden treasures, the secret hoards, that you may know that I am the Lord.
This flattering description came because of the alleged "decree of Cyrus", which allowed the return of the Jews and the rebuilding of the Temple (even, allegedly, funding it).

The decree of Cyrus (whatever it actually stated) may be no more than general Persian imperial policy, of course - which the redactors of the OT took to mean quite a bit more.


According to Josephus, the Decree stated as follows:

Quote:
I have given leave to as many of the Jews that dwell in my country as please to return to their own country, and to rebuild their city, and to build the temple of God at Jerusalem on the same place where it was before. I have also sent my treasurer Mithridates, and Zorobabel, the governor of the Jews, that they may lay the foundations of the temple, and may build it sixty cubits high, and of the same latitude, making three edifices of polished stones, and one of the wood of the country, and the same order extends to the altar whereon they offer sacrifices to God. I require also that the expenses for these things may be given out of my revenues. Moreover, I have also sent the vessels which king Nebuchadnezzar pillaged out of the temple, and have given them to Mithridates the treasurer, and to Zorobabel the governor of the Jews, that they may have them carried to Jerusalem, and may restore them to the temple of God. Now their number is as follows: Fifty chargers of gold, and five hundred of silver; forty Thericlean cups of gold, and five hundred of silver; fifty basons of gold, and five hundred of silver; thirty vessels for pouring [the drink-offerings], and three hundred of silver; thirty vials of gold, and two thousand four hundred of silver; with a thousand other large vessels. (3) I permit them to have the same honor which they were used to have from their forefathers, as also for their small cattle, and for wine and oil, two hundred and five thousand and five hundred drachme; and for wheat flour, twenty thousand and five hundred artabae; and I give order that these expenses shall be given them out of the tributes due from Samaria. The priests shall also offer these sacrifices according to the laws of Moses in Jerusalem; and when they offer them, they shall pray to God for the preservation of the king and of his family, that the kingdom of Persia may continue. But my will is, that those who disobey these injunctions, and make them void, shall be hung upon a cross, and their substance brought into the king's treasury.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrus_...t_in_the_Bible
  #65  
Old 04-12-2018, 12:37 PM
Delicious Delicious is offline
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But what's the deal with the red cow? Were there historically red cows used for rituals or is it like saying they'll need a flying pig?

Last edited by Delicious; 04-12-2018 at 12:38 PM. Reason: Autocorrect
  #66  
Old 04-12-2018, 04:13 PM
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But what's the deal with the red cow? Were there historically red cows used for rituals or is it like saying they'll need a flying pig?
In Judaism, touching a dead body, or walking over a grave, or being in a room that has a dead body in it, makes you ritually impure. To purify people who have been made impure, a priest is supposed to ritually sacrifice a red cow, burn it to ashes, and thenow mix the ashes with water, and being sprinkled with that water purifies you. That's from the book of Numbers, in the bible.

The problem is, the Midrash lays out really strict requirements as to what makes a red heifer valid for the ceremony, so that's hard to meet.
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  #67  
Old 04-12-2018, 06:14 PM
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In Judaism, touching a dead body, or walking over a grave, or being in a room that has a dead body in it, makes you ritually impure. To purify people who have been made impure, a priest is supposed to ritually sacrifice a red cow, burn it to ashes, and thenow mix the ashes with water, and being sprinkled with that water purifies you. That's from the book of Numbers, in the bible.

The problem is, the Midrash lays out really strict requirements as to what makes a red heifer valid for the ceremony, so that's hard to meet.
So all Jews require a red cow to be ritually pure, not just the Messiah?

Or is this one of the things that only applies once the temple is rebuilt?

Also does this mean red cows used to be readily available but are now extinct?
  #68  
Old 04-13-2018, 06:54 AM
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So all Jews require a red cow to be ritually pure, not just the Messiah?

Or is this one of the things that only applies once the temple is rebuilt?

Also does this mean red cows used to be readily available but are now extinct?
It's everybody. It's nothing to do with the messiah. In Judaism, there's a bunch of stuff that makes people ritually unclean or impure, and a lot of it has to do with fluids and secretions. If you menstruate, if you ejaculate, you're ritually unclean. Most of the time, you can get rid of ritual impurity by bathing, pretty much. In Judaism, there's a ritual bath, called a mikvah. If you bathe in it, you become clean again.

However, the impurity that comes from contacting death is special. It can't be gotten rid of by a mikvah. It can only be gotten rid of through the sacrifice of the red heifer and the water of purification.

So, you may ask, why is any of this important? The answer is, right now it's not very important (although, even now, in Judaism, priests aren't supposed to go to funerals. Some don't even go to museums because a lot of museums have bones in them.) However, if and when the temple is rebuilt, this will be important, because somebody who is ritually impure can't enter the temple. So the people who are trying to breed a red heifer are doing so because they want the Temple rebuilt and the cow is part of that.

And, the answer about the question of rarely is that a red heifer that meets the qualifications is rare and always has been. Supposedly, according to the Talmud, there have only been nine red heifers who have ever been sacrificed.

Also, a little sidenote, in case you didn't know. In Judaism, unlike, for instance, Christianity, priesthood is hereditary. Priests are descended from Moses's brother Aaron, and it's not their job to provide moral guidence, but instead to conduct rituals in the Temple, especially ritual sacrifices. Priests haven't had a lot to do since the Temple was last destroyed by the Romans.
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  #69  
Old 04-13-2018, 10:26 AM
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Are/were sacrifices allowed outside the Temple?
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This seems to be pretty definitive.
posted by logicpunk at 10:07 AM on December 20, 2007 [3 favorites]
  #70  
Old 04-13-2018, 10:56 AM
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Are/were sacrifices allowed outside the Temple?
No.
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  #71  
Old 04-13-2018, 10:58 AM
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So, are priests and rabbis two completely different things? If so, are there currently any priests?
  #72  
Old 04-13-2018, 12:44 PM
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Somehow this never occurred to me to ask until now, but when did the belief that "the Messiah will rebuild the Temple" come about? If this predates the construction (or at least the destruction) of the Second Temple, then what did people think it meant during Second Temple times?


During Second Temple times the Messiah was supposed to renovate: redo the bathrooms, put in central heat, add a kitchen island with a breakfast bar. That sort of thing.


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  #73  
Old 04-13-2018, 02:55 PM
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So, are priests and rabbis two completely different things? If so, are there currently any priests?
Rabbi comes from the Hebrew word for teacher. They've studied Jewish law, have attended either theological seminaries or yeshivas, and have been ordained. They teach, lead congregations, provide pastoral care, and preach sermons, and organize and run worship services.

Priests, or, in Hebrew, kohanim, are descendants in the male line of Moses's brother Aaron. Back when the temple was still around, they were the ones who sacrificed animals. They had certain special rights back then, mostly, the right to eat sacrificed animals and get a part of the fruit harvest. They also had certain restrictions, like not being able to marry a divorcee or a convert.

There are still Jewish kohanim around today...in fact, one of them, Michael Cohen, has been much I'm the news of late. But, without the temple and sacrifices, most of their religious role has become obsolete.
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  #74  
Old 04-13-2018, 04:03 PM
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I'm glad this thread got bumped - I missed seeing it its first time at the top of the GD thread list because I was in the hospital for a few weeks with a nasty infection (thank G-d, I'm feeling much better now), but I could certainly add to this subject.

For now, I'll just quickly amend Captain Amazing's answer - Kohanim's sacrificial role is currently obsolete, but the non-sacrificial aspects of their Biblically-defined roles and privileges still apply. They still bless the congregation with the Priestly Blessing (see Numbers 6:22-27), they still collect the modern-day equivalent of 5 silver shekalim for firstborn males who are not Kohanim or Levites, they still must avoid contact with dead bodies, except for those of close relatives, and there are several other aspects which still apply in modern times. There is also a Biblical mandate to honor Kohanim, which today manifests itself in a Kohen being the first man to be called to the Torah on days the Torah is read in public, and being offered to lead the Blessing after Meals.
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  #75  
Old 04-13-2018, 06:10 PM
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The problem with phone posting is that you tend to be overly concise, and that's what happened to me. Of course, it's true that kohanim still bless the congregation and still are paid for the redemption of the first born. In the interest of completeness, I should have said that, and thanks to Chaim for pointing it out.

Also, I'm glad the infection cleared up and you're feeling better. Make sure you take care of yourself. I had an infection myself in October, and even after it was gone, it took months for my body to get back to normal, so don't overexert.
  #76  
Old 04-14-2018, 04:17 PM
kaylasdad99 kaylasdad99 is online now
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Let's see if I can get more basic:

In my (Catholic school) religious instruction, I was given to understand that when Adam and Eve were ejected from the Garden, a promise of eventual redemption was given by God; and that one of the elements of that promise was an explicit assertion that God would be sending His own son to carry out the redemption.

So, for any Christian Bible scholars, could you please point me to the verse where the assertion is explicitly made (if one exists; I'm not prepared to accept that Gen 3:15 meets the standard of explicitness I'm asking about)?

To any Jewish students of Scripture, I ask: does Jewish Biblical tradition include an interpretation that any such assertion exists in the texts?
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Old 04-14-2018, 04:26 PM
kaylasdad99 kaylasdad99 is online now
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Put more broadly, does Judaism include any expectation that a Redeemer will come who will, once and for all, reverse/negate the consequences of the Fall?

Last edited by kaylasdad99; 04-14-2018 at 04:27 PM.
  #78  
Old 04-16-2018, 10:28 AM
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Rabbi comes from the Hebrew word for teacher. They've studied Jewish law, have attended either theological seminaries or yeshivas, and have been ordained. They teach, lead congregations, provide pastoral care, and preach sermons, and organize and run worship services.

Priests, or, in Hebrew, kohanim, are descendants in the male line of Moses's brother Aaron. Back when the temple was still around, they were the ones who sacrificed animals. They had certain special rights back then, mostly, the right to eat sacrificed animals and get a part of the fruit harvest. They also had certain restrictions, like not being able to marry a divorcee or a convert.

There are still Jewish kohanim around today...in fact, one of them, Michael Cohen, has been much I'm the news of late. But, without the temple and sacrifices, most of their religious role has become obsolete.
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I'm glad this thread got bumped - I missed seeing it its first time at the top of the GD thread list because I was in the hospital for a few weeks with a nasty infection (thank G-d, I'm feeling much better now), but I could certainly add to this subject.

For now, I'll just quickly amend Captain Amazing's answer - Kohanim's sacrificial role is currently obsolete, but the non-sacrificial aspects of their Biblically-defined roles and privileges still apply. They still bless the congregation with the Priestly Blessing (see Numbers 6:22-27), they still collect the modern-day equivalent of 5 silver shekalim for firstborn males who are not Kohanim or Levites, they still must avoid contact with dead bodies, except for those of close relatives, and there are several other aspects which still apply in modern times. There is also a Biblical mandate to honor Kohanim, which today manifests itself in a Kohen being the first man to be called to the Torah on days the Torah is read in public, and being offered to lead the Blessing after Meals.
Thank you; I knew nothing about the kohanim.
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Old 04-16-2018, 11:01 AM
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The problem with phone posting is that you tend to be overly concise, and that's what happened to me. Of course, it's true that kohanim still bless the congregation and still are paid for the redemption of the first born. In the interest of completeness, I should have said that, and thanks to Chaim for pointing it out.

Also, I'm glad the infection cleared up and you're feeling better. Make sure you take care of yourself. I had an infection myself in October, and even after it was gone, it took months for my body to get back to normal, so don't overexert.
Interesting cultural transmission moment: the "Vulcan salute" Spock gives in Star Trek is modeled on the ritual blessing of the congregation that the kohanim give!
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Old 04-16-2018, 12:38 PM
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Put more broadly, does Judaism include any expectation that a Redeemer will come who will, once and for all, reverse/negate the consequences of the Fall?
The concept of the "fall" isn't really part of Judaism. Oh sure, we have the story of Adam and Eve, but that's more of a "just so" story than an actual moral parable: it explains why we grow old and die, why we wear clothing, why we have to work for a living, why childbirth sucks, why snakes don't have legs* and so on. There's no redemption to be had; what's done is done. Maybe, in the End of Days, we will no longer have to suffer from death. I don't know. All that Messianic stuff was never that important to me as a Jew. We certainly won't be able to unlearn what we learned from the Tree of Knowledge, nor would we want to.

Original Sin is a Christian invention.








(The whole Serpent=Satan is also a Christian interpretation. For Jews, sometimes a talking snake is just a talking snake)

Last edited by Alessan; 04-16-2018 at 12:40 PM.
  #81  
Old 04-16-2018, 01:16 PM
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Put more broadly, does Judaism include any expectation that a Redeemer will come who will, once and for all, reverse/negate the consequences of the Fall?
The Jewish Messiah is not a "redeemer". He's not supposed to reverse the "fall". That's in part because the world isn't "fallen" in Judaism, so being "redeemed" isn't necessary.

Rather, the Messiah is someone who physically leads and rescues -- originally, simply leads and rescues the Jews (as in Cyrus the Persian, who rescued the Jews from Babylonian captivity and is identified as a "messiah" in Isaiah, even though he himself was of course not Jewish, but Zoroastrian). Later, the concept was broadened into someone who will lead and rescue the world.

Christianity can be seen as a further abstraction of messiah-dom, from a physical leader and rescuer to a universal spiritual "redeemer". This is however very different from the Jewish notion and draws on concepts alien to Judaism (not least, that a human could be in a sense also divine - Judaism is very much not into that idea).
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Old 04-16-2018, 09:33 PM
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OK, to address the OP first - What is the Jewish Messiah supposed to do, exactly?

As many have noted, the word "Messiah" literally means "annointed", i.e., had oil poured on their heads in a ritual manner, and the term has been applied by the Bible to several offices (high priest/Kohen Gadol, King of Israel, King of Judah) and to several individuals (e.g., Cyrus, as many have noted). However, when the modern Jew refers to the Messiah, he is referring to the descendant of David, whose primary function will be to gather the exiled Jews (or their descendants) and unite the nation under his banner, in fulfillment of the prophecy in Isaiah chapter 11. (It should be noted that the word "Messiah" is not used in the Bible that way. In much Talmudic literature, this "Messiah" figure is referred to as "the son (i.e., descendant) of David. Not sure when this became synonymous with the term "Messiah".) In some way connected to him (but not necessarily his direct action, the world will experience some form of spiritual renaissance in which people understand more about G-d than ever before, and there will be universal peace even between long-time enemies (it's debatable whether the "lion and lamb" references are meant literally or are symbolic references to warring nations).

That, the re-unification of the Israelite nation from exile, is the focal point by which other prophecies can be recognized as Messianic. For example, Isaiah 56:7-8 mentions the bringing of sacrifices in the Holy Temple as something that will accompany the gathering of the exiles. This implicitly states that at the time the Messiah - the scion of David - will gather the exiles, there will be a Temple in which sacrifices can, according to Jewish law, be offered. It doesn't necessarily say he will be the one to build it or bring about its construction, but simply that at that time, there will be one, and there will be active sacrificial service. This also means that such pre-conditions as the birth of a red heifer to purify those who are currently assumed impure will also have occurred. (this also answers a later post by tim314.)

Delicious:

Quote:
So all Jews require a red cow to be ritually pure, not just the Messiah?
In order to do things that require ritual purity, yes. There is not a requirement in Jewish law to always be ritually pure. Which connects to your next question...

Quote:
Or is this one of the things that only applies once the temple is rebuilt?
For most Jews, yes, only entering the Temple complex (or its former location, but why go there with no Temple?) or handling Temple-consecrated sacrifices. For Kohanim, a consequence is that the portion of the produce that is due to them (called Terumah in Hebrew) and the similar portion of dough/bread (Hallah, like the Jewsh braided bread) cannot be eaten in a state of impurity and are in modern times destroyed by the farmer/baker instead.

Quote:
Also does this mean red cows used to be readily available but are now extinct?
They were always a rare variation of the species. According to the Talmud, there were only nine used for purification in the history of Temple service.

kaylasdad99:

Quote:
Put more broadly, does Judaism include any expectation that a Redeemer will come who will, once and for all, reverse/negate the consequences of the Fall?
If by "consequences" you mean "Original Sin", Judaism does not believe in that. If by "consequences" you mean the loss of an idyllic existence as per Eden, as I said earlier, some commentators take such statements as "the lion will lie with the lamb" literally, in which case, the answer is yes, and some say they do not refer to the literal animals - Maimonides is very clear that he thinks the course of nature will remain unchanged after the coming of the Messiah, and the only change will be the Jewish kingdom and the non-Jewish nations acting subservient to it.
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  #83  
Old 04-24-2018, 08:19 PM
TonySinclair TonySinclair is offline
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Originally Posted by kaylasdad99 View Post
In my (Catholic school) religious instruction, I was given to understand that when Adam and Eve were ejected from the Garden, a promise of eventual redemption was given by God; and that one of the elements of that promise was an explicit assertion that God would be sending His own son to carry out the redemption.

So, for any Christian Bible scholars, could you please point me to the verse where the assertion is explicitly made (if one exists; I'm not prepared to accept that Gen 3:15 meets the standard of explicitness I'm asking about)?
I'm afraid that's as explicit as it gets. In other words, no, there's nothing in Genesis, or the entire Hebrew Bible, that explicitly agrees with your Catholic school teachers.
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Old 04-26-2018, 08:23 PM
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"I'm the messiah!
The one true messiah!
I feel so much better now!
Dr Finkman was right.
He's my therapist."

I can never remember the name of the prayer. But, one of the daily prayers includes the lines "May Your Temple be speedily rebuilt. There we will serve Thee with awe." To the average Jew, the Temple being rebuilt equates to the coming of moshiach.
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  #85  
Old 04-30-2018, 03:27 AM
kaylasdad99 kaylasdad99 is online now
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Originally Posted by TonySinclair View Post
I'm afraid that's as explicit as it gets. In other words, no, there's nothing in Genesis, or the entire Hebrew Bible, that explicitly agrees with your Catholic school teachers.
Thanks to all who responded to my questions re: Gen. 3:15. Although I checked Wikipedia and learned that Christianity and Judaism have different interpretations of the verse, I’m still a bit confused about what exactly the Jewish interpretation is. It almost seems like it might mean nothing more that “People won’t like snakes, and will try to stomp on them; and snakes won’t like being stomped on, so they’ll bite.” That, at least fits well with the idea that it’s a “just so” story.

Also, do Jews see Adam and Eve as being Jews or Gentiles? How about Noah? Predating Abraham as they do, one supposes that neither term could be said to apply. But I have a feeling that expecting for Talmudic scholars to have ever left a question unexplored is practically the definition of an unwarranted assumption.

Last edited by kaylasdad99; 04-30-2018 at 03:31 AM.
  #86  
Old 04-30-2018, 05:42 PM
CCitizen CCitizen is offline
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Messiah will come to Earth at latest in 2240 Common Era. The vast majority of people will live forever without any suffering. No one will have any inclination to commit any sins. Non-Jews who kept the Seven Laws of Noah will also receive some eternal reward.

Out of all people who ever lived less then 1 in 10,000 will suffer eternally.
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Old 04-30-2018, 05:44 PM
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Also, do Jews see Adam and Eve as being Jews or Gentiles? How about Noah?
They are Gentiles, but they will get eternal reward.

Some Christians believe that most non-Christians will get eternal suffering.
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Old 05-01-2018, 08:28 AM
Malthus Malthus is offline
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Originally Posted by kaylasdad99 View Post

Also, do Jews see Adam and Eve as being Jews or Gentiles? How about Noah? Predating Abraham as they do, one supposes that neither term could be said to apply. But I have a feeling that expecting for Talmudic scholars to have ever left a question unexplored is practically the definition of an unwarranted assumption.
It's actually a very important point in Judaism - Noah was, of course, not Jewish (though in the mythology he was the actual ancestor of everyone who is alive today - Jew and non-Jew alike).

Yet Noah was, famously, a "good man". God himself confirms it; Noah and family is saved by God himself, when the wicked are not.

Therefore - and the logic is inescapable - it is possible in Judaism to be a "good person" and not be Jewish.

Now, God issued some commandments to Noah in the Bible, which have been codified by Jewish scholars into the so-called "Noahide Laws", that is, the laws for being a "good person" (like Noah) but not Jewish ... these are probably the first attempt in history to create a truly universal set of moral laws, laws that are, in theory at least, binding on all of humanity regardless of religion, tribe, etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Laws_of_Noah

The laws are as follows:

Quote:
1.Not to worship idols.
2.Not to curse God.
3.To establish courts of justice.
4.Not to commit murder.
5.Not to commit adultery or sexual immorality.
6.Not to steal.
7.Not to eat flesh torn from a living animal.
Note that a positive belief in God is not required (you can't "curse God" or "worship Idols", though). The only positive injunction is to "establish courts of justice".

(As an aside, modern Jews have very different interpretive approaches to what "worshiping idols" means - one approach I like is that this is the transgression of mistaking the fake for the real, and extends further than mere religion ... similarly,, the injunction against eating living flesh torn from an animal is generalized to an injunction against unnecessary animal cruelty).

Interestingly, a non-Jew who obeys these is said, by Jewish scholars, to be just as "righteous" as a practicing Jew who obeys all the Jewish laws, and will "have a place in the world to come" - a very different position from the other great monotheistic faiths (such as Christianity), which tend to require conversion to their religion to obtain such status.
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Old 05-01-2018, 03:38 PM
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Re Righteous Gentiles

OTTOMH

When looking for a stone for the breastplate of the Kohain Gadol, they wanted to buy one from a gentile. He agreed to sell for 1000. He went home to get the stone. His elderly dad was taking a nap, with his feet up on the chest containing the stone. The man goes back to the buyers to explain he can't wake dad just to make money and they'll have to wait. The buyers interrupt when he says they can't have the stone yet. "Fine, we'll pay 10,000!". The righteous gentile refuses. He explains the situation and says 'I cannot take money just for being respectful of my father.'


When Jonah is on a boat, fleeing G-d and heading away from Nineveh, there is terrible stormy weather and rough seas. The rest of the men on board guess that one among them is cursed. They perform a lottery as diviniation. Jonah keeps drawing the short straw. They ask him what's going on. He tells them "The Lord is mad at me. The storms and rough seas will calm only if you throw me overboard." The crew refuses. They say that if they throw Jonah overboard, he'll surely die. Jonah has to convince them to throw him in order to save their own lives. As for the folk of Nineveh, we know they turned from wickedness. I don't know what the exact wording is and whether they became righteous gentiles or converted en masse to Judaism.

In modern times, the Holocaust Memorial in Israel has an avenue of trees and plaques to commemorate righteous gentiles like KIng Christian II of Denmark.
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Old 05-01-2018, 03:58 PM
CCitizen CCitizen is offline
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Originally Posted by Malthus View Post
Interestingly, a non-Jew who obeys these is said, by Jewish scholars, to be just as "righteous" as a practicing Jew who obeys all the Jewish laws, and will "have a place in the world to come" - a very different position from the other great monotheistic faiths (such as Christianity), which tend to require conversion to their religion to obtain such status.
Not as righteous -- someone who has 613 Laws has a much more difficult task and much greater reward.

But most people are destined for eternal reward. Very few people will suffer eternally.
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Old 05-02-2018, 08:14 AM
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Not as righteous -- someone who has 613 Laws has a much more difficult task and much greater reward.

But most people are destined for eternal reward. Very few people will suffer eternally.
As usual, two Jews have three opinions between them.

Way I understood it, there were no gradations of righteousness - you either were or weren't - and so observing Jews don't get a greater reward.

Reasoning: if observing Jews got a greater reward, then it would be a good deed to spread that message, so that others would be motivated to obtain that reward by following the 613 laws; yet Jews do not seek converts from non-Jews - on the contrary, they tend to dissuade them. Nor is it suggested that Noahides follow those 613 laws.

The idea, as I understood it, was that observing Jews follow the 613 laws not out of hope of surpassing the reward available to righteous non-Jews (who need only obey the necessary 7 Noahide Laws), but for two other reasons:

1. Because of the covenant - God will look out for the Jews as a people, ensuring they are never extinguished, if the laws are fulfilled; and

2. To act as an example to other peoples, a light unto the world. The glory all the more, because it is not done for personal benefit.
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Old 05-02-2018, 09:17 AM
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Not as righteous -- someone who has 613 Laws has a much more difficult task and much greater reward.
I've never heard this either. Righteous is righteous, there are no degrees.
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Old 05-02-2018, 11:18 AM
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I agree with Malthus and Telemark. I've never heard of Jews getting a greater reward.
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Old 05-02-2018, 10:26 PM
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The notion of "reward" (and punishment) is something of an illustration to simplify understanding of the afterlife experience for the unsophisticated. The reality (theologically speaking, in the eye of believers) is more metaphysical than that.

The notion of commandments (both Jew-specific or Noahide) in Judaic theology is that observing them is how human beings can best emulate the attributes of G-d, and thereby reach an understanding of G-d. The effect that this has on the soul is that a deeper such emulation/understanding that one has achieved during one's lifetime, the better prepared that person's soul is for the experience of interfacing with G-d (which is a pleasure for the soul) after separation from the body. Righteous gentiles who have observed the seven Noahide commandments certainly have an interface with G-d, but it is not the refined, nuanced understanding that Jews who observe all the commandments of the Torah are able to manage. It is not a matter of more or less reward deserved/earned/received, it is a matter of the degree to which one has sensitized him/herself to the Divine. (To contrast, one who has been decidedly evil will have developed a revulsion for G-d in his/her soul, which will, after death, be a painful experience.)
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Old 05-03-2018, 05:23 AM
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The term is often used alongside the term savior (in the old and new testaments), which has a very much a military connotation. as in a general who saves his nation from peril by his military victorys.

The Greek word for savior, soter is actually formal title bestowed on generals by the people he saved (e.g.
Antigonus Soter)

Last edited by griffin1977; 05-03-2018 at 05:27 AM.
  #96  
Old 05-03-2018, 06:51 AM
Czarcasm Czarcasm is online now
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Originally Posted by CCitizen View Post
Messiah will come to Earth at latest in 2240 Common Era. The vast majority of people will live forever without any suffering. No one will have any inclination to commit any sins. Non-Jews who kept the Seven Laws of Noah will also receive some eternal reward.

Out of all people who ever lived less then 1 in 10,000 will suffer eternally.
How did you arrive at that date?
edited to add: 10,640,000 are going to suffer for eternity?

Last edited by Czarcasm; 05-03-2018 at 06:53 AM.
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