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Old 06-10-2017, 10:44 AM
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What is money laundering?


I'm thinking of current events and investigations, obviously. Feel free to move this thread wherever it needs to be.

In what way would this work, using our president as an example?

For instance he sold his Florida home for a 60 million dollar profit, after owning it for two years, to a russian oligarch (who proceeded to tear it down.) It was a 150% profit and the highest single home sale record for the US.

Donald has denied ever meeting this man, but FAA records say that their planes have been in the same airports many times etc.

In the case of russian oligarchs, what is their motive for these transactions? What is it accomplishing in terms of financial and legal aims?

Last edited by drad dog; 06-10-2017 at 10:44 AM.
  #2  
Old 06-10-2017, 10:55 AM
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I will stay out of politics in GQ. Money laundering is simply taking illegally gotten money and creating a clean, legal trail for it.

One example is taking a lot of illegally gotten cash to a casino, playing conservatively for a few hours and then cashing out. You don't even care if you lose a little. What you do care about is being able to show all the money you "won" come tax time.

Another common way to do it is to operate a cash business like a laundromat or car wash. You just report illegal money as legal cash income from your business.

Fortunately or unfortunately, the feds also know about these tactics so they aren't guaranteed to work.
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Old 06-10-2017, 10:56 AM
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What is your real question? Your post doesn't say anything about money laundering. Trump sold a house to a guy who tore it down and broke even selling off three subdivided parcels of land. Trump bought it in a distressed bankruptcy sale and the pool of buyers for $40 million homes isn't that big. He saw an opportunity and took it.

This has nothing to do with money laundering, which is taking profits from illegal activities and making them appear legitimate, such as depositing cash into a business bank account and claiming it as cash receipts for the business.
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Old 06-10-2017, 11:08 AM
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US banks are required to have software that checks for transactions that might be money laundering.
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Old 06-10-2017, 11:13 AM
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"Here it is. To conseal the source of money as by channeling it through an intermediary."
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Old 06-10-2017, 05:28 PM
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"Here it is. To conseal the source of money as by channeling it through an intermediary."
I canít believe what a bunch of nerds we are. Weíre looking up money laundering on the SDMB.
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Old 06-10-2017, 05:40 PM
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I canít believe what a bunch of nerds we are. Weíre looking up money laundering on the SDMB.
No shit. I just googled money laundering and I got this: "I canít believe what a bunch of nerds we are. Weíre looking up money laundering on the SDMB."
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Old 06-12-2017, 02:10 PM
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"Here it is. To conseal the source of money as by channeling it through an intermediary."
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I canít believe what a bunch of nerds we are. Weíre looking up money laundering on the SDMB.
I am surprised it took that long to get there. https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/...4/71612844.jpg
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Old 06-10-2017, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by drad dog View Post
I'm thinking of current events and investigations, obviously. Feel free to move this thread wherever it needs to be.

In what way would this work, using our president as an example?

For instance he sold his Florida home for a 60 million dollar profit, after owning it for two years, to a russian oligarch (who proceeded to tear it down.) It was a 150% profit and the highest single home sale record for the US.
Why would we use the president as an example? He bought a house and sold it later at a profit. In what manner is that money laundering? I'll grant that it was a great opportunity for a snarky cheapshot at him, but he was a bad example to use in terms of the question asked.
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Old 06-10-2017, 11:23 AM
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What is your real question? Your post doesn't say anything about money laundering. Trump sold a house to a guy who tore it down and broke even selling off three subdivided parcels of land. Trump bought it in a distressed bankruptcy sale and the pool of buyers for $40 million homes isn't that big. He saw an opportunity and took it.

This has nothing to do with money laundering, which is taking profits from illegal activities and making them appear legitimate, such as depositing cash into a business bank account and claiming it as cash receipts for the business.
I think the OP's point was, if a Russian wanted to bribe the president, he can't openly hand the guy a briefcase full of cash without raising a lot of questions -- but if he buys something for a lot more than its market price, then he would in effect be handing the guy money in what looks like a legitimate transaction, complete with a paper trail and everything, such that the income can be openly reported as if it were unremarkable.
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Old 06-10-2017, 11:33 AM
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I think the OP's point was, if a Russian wanted to bribe the president, he can't openly hand the guy a briefcase full of cash without raising a lot of questions -- but if he buys something for a lot more than its market price, then he would in effect be handing the guy money in what looks like a legitimate transaction, complete with a paper trail and everything, such that the income can be openly reported as if it were unremarkable.
Sounds right. It's a form of bribery still, but using the same technique that may be used in money laundering to inflate the value of an otherwise legitimate transaction. Money laundering more often is based on non-existent transactions, the car wash posting income based on hundreds of more cars per week than were actually washed as an example. But the car wash could also wash 100 cars a week at $10 a wash and record $20 per wash as the payment. Either way, the car wash owner has an explanation for where the money came from, and he'll pay taxes on the inflated amount. It's the IRS at all levels of government that has the best opportunity to find financial irregularities and if they don't find tax-avoidance they're unlikely to investigate any further or notify other areas of law enforcement.
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Old 06-10-2017, 11:47 AM
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I'm OK with this going into Barbecue Pit or Elections, but there is nothing "right" about donalds conections with lots of big money coming from russia. I don't agree that this is what capitalism looks like when it's done right. Sorry.

Now if these putative things fall into other categories than "money laundering" that is also the subject of the OP: To clarify the motives and methods and definitions, of what donalds connections with plutocrats, criminals, oligarchs and authoritarian leaders are exactly. Other related acts such as bribery, and corruption, exist in a continuum with money laundering too. Since we are in the middle of an investigation into this it seems timely to ask. Unless you have a problem with this. Money laundering is most certainly a part of the investigative picture now, except on only one cable network, which is increasingly isolated.

I'm trying to assess the motives of the counterparties to transactions like this.

The one line definition of money laundering is not what I'm looking for. I'm trying to see how it works in the world we live in, now. Maybe it's all bribery, or corruption, and ML is not in play. But money is fungible and fluid. That's why you ask the questions.

Anyone else want this in the Pit? Speak up.

Want to change the OP to "What should we be investigating financially with the current administration?" I don't have a problem with that. Sorry for any confusion. I didn't know how sensitive this might be, actually, believe it or not. I'm usually on the other networks, but I do scan them all.
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Old 06-10-2017, 04:03 PM
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I'm OK with this going into Barbecue Pit or Elections, but there is nothing "right" about donalds conections with lots of big money coming from russia. I don't agree that this is what capitalism looks like when it's done right. Sorry.

Now if these putative things fall into other categories than "money laundering" that is also the subject of the OP: To clarify the motives and methods and definitions, of what donalds connections with plutocrats, criminals, oligarchs and authoritarian leaders are exactly. Other related acts such as bribery, and corruption, exist in a continuum with money laundering too. Since we are in the middle of an investigation into this it seems timely to ask. Unless you have a problem with this. Money laundering is most certainly a part of the investigative picture now, except on only one cable network, which is increasingly isolated.

I'm trying to assess the motives of the counterparties to transactions like this.

The one line definition of money laundering is not what I'm looking for. I'm trying to see how it works in the world we live in, now. Maybe it's all bribery, or corruption, and ML is not in play. But money is fungible and fluid. That's why you ask the questions.

Anyone else want this in the Pit? Speak up.

Want to change the OP to "What should we be investigating financially with the current administration?" I don't have a problem with that. Sorry for any confusion. I didn't know how sensitive this might be, actually, believe it or not. I'm usually on the other networks, but I do scan them all.
Your frustration is completely understandable and likely shared by a majority on this board. There's very little that is normal about POTUS 45 and the current situation is extremely fluid. The main thing to consider is that there are two Congressional committees & a FBI Special Investigator that are focused on this matter and that it will take time for anything concrete to emerge. (Senate Judiciary and House Judiciary will be looking into the Comey firing for potential obstruction of justice findings, which would be separate from the Russia investigation.)

With that said, there's quite a bit of unsourced stories on Trump, Russia, and money laundering. For example, one bit of theorycrafting involves Deutsche Bank (which was busted for laundering 10 billion in Russian money) funneling some of that cash to it's favorite customer, Donald J Trump. We'll have to wait and see if this theory has any basis in fact.

Somewhat tangentally related to all this was last year's Panama Papers event. Here's a decent writeup by the Guardian on how the Russians do money laundering.
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Old 06-10-2017, 11:52 AM
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Why would we use the president as an example? He bought a house and sold it later at a profit. In what manner is that money laundering? I'll grant that it was a great opportunity for a snarky cheapshot at him, but he was a bad example to use in terms of the question asked.
Who did he sell it to? Did he know this person. Where did this person get his money and what and why does he want to do this with it? How did he hook up with donald?

Donald couldn't subdivide? I thought that was his business. He left 100 Million on the table cause he was too busy doing what?

You might think it's a crummy thing to do to ask this. I think it's normal day at the office for the FBI, and frankly for any taxpayer at this point.

Last edited by drad dog; 06-10-2017 at 11:53 AM.
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Old 06-10-2017, 11:22 AM
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I'm thinking of current events and investigations, obviously. Feel free to move this thread wherever it needs to be.

In what way would this work, using our president as an example?

For instance he sold his Florida home for a 60 million dollar profit, after owning it for two years, to a russian oligarch (who proceeded to tear it down.) It was a 150% profit and the highest single home sale record for the US.

Donald has denied ever meeting this man, but FAA records say that their planes have been in the same airports many times etc.

In the case of russian oligarchs, what is their motive for these transactions? What is it accomplishing in terms of financial and legal aims?
The real estate sale that you reference and that Trump did has nothing whatsoever to do with money laundering.

Jesus H Christ on a popsicle stick. When are you liberal Nanny Staters gonna quit whining about a hugely-successful capitalist being your new POTUS?

I am sure that if a socialist prez did the same deal but then dumped his profits into a welfare fund for, say, illegal immigrants or unwed mothers, you would have no complaints. Right?

You might want to take a look at exactly what it is about somebody making huge profits in a very legal way that so disturbs you. Doing so might serve as a positive motivational factor for you.

Cheers.
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Old 06-10-2017, 11:55 AM
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The real estate sale that you reference and that Trump did has nothing whatsoever to do with money laundering.

Jesus H Christ on a popsicle stick. When are you liberal Nanny Staters gonna quit whining about a hugely-successful capitalist being your new POTUS?

I am sure that if a socialist prez did the same deal but then dumped his profits into a welfare fund for, say, illegal immigrants or unwed mothers, you would have no complaints. Right?

You might want to take a look at exactly what it is about somebody making huge profits in a very legal way that so disturbs you. Doing so might serve as a positive motivational factor for you.

Cheers.
Reported.
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Old 06-10-2017, 12:19 PM
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Reported.
I am wondering why?

Couldnt you rebut me?

I welcome a separate thread on this issue or a related one where you and I can debate this line of thought. That being: I claim that most of Trump's detractors do so only in view of his wealth. If he was less wealthy, say, about that of the overage POTUS over the past three decades, his detractors and amount of negative press would be halved.

Let me know.

Thanks.
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Old 06-10-2017, 12:31 PM
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That being: I claim that most of Trump's detractors do so only in view of his wealth. If he was less wealthy, say, about that of the overage POTUS over the past three decades, his detractors and amount of negative press would be halved.
What? Have you never listened to the man? I know it's hard to bear sometimes, but what he says (and we know because it's recorded) and does is more than enough to account for his negative feelings and press.
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Old 06-12-2017, 01:30 PM
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I am wondering why?

Couldnt you rebut me?

I welcome a separate thread on this issue or a related one where you and I can debate this line of thought. That being: I claim that most of Trump's detractors do so only in view of his wealth. If he was less wealthy, say, about that of the overage POTUS over the past three decades, his detractors and amount of negative press would be halved.
Are you also extremely wealthy? Because if not, I'm curious how, as a person of ordinary means, you think your interests align with Donald Trumps.




Quote:
In what way would this work, using our president as an example?

For instance he sold his Florida home for a 60 million dollar profit, after owning it for two years, to a russian oligarch (who proceeded to tear it down.) It was a 150% profit and the highest single home sale record for the US.

Donald has denied ever meeting this man, but FAA records say that their planes have been in the same airports many times etc.

In the case of Russian oligarchs, what is their motive for these transactions? What is it accomplishing in terms of financial and legal aims?
This is not necessarily "money laundering" just because he sold an expensive house to a Russian billionaire for a large profit. However, it could be if the intent was to use the sale to hide the true source of the money.



I think there is also a bit of confusion here between "money laundering" which is the concealing of the source of money and "racketeering" which is the conducting of a fraudulent or illegal business itself.
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Old 06-10-2017, 12:09 PM
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The real estate sale that you reference and that Trump did has nothing whatsoever to do with money laundering.

Jesus H Christ on a popsicle stick. When are you liberal Nanny Staters gonna quit whining about a hugely-successful capitalist being your new POTUS?

I am sure that if a socialist prez did the same deal but then dumped his profits into a welfare fund for, say, illegal immigrants or unwed mothers, you would have no complaints. Right?

You might want to take a look at exactly what it is about somebody making huge profits in a very legal way that so disturbs you. Doing so might serve as a positive motivational factor for you.

Cheers.
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Lickety Split, political potshots are not permitted in General Questions. This is an official warning. Do not do this again.

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Old 06-10-2017, 11:41 AM
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Jesus H Christ on a popsicle stick. When are you liberal Nanny Staters gonna quit whining about a hugely-successful capitalist being your new POTUS?
Maybe when we get a hugely-successful capitalist as President.
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Old 06-10-2017, 06:00 PM
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Maybe when we get a hugely-successful capitalist as President.
Points!
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Old 06-10-2017, 11:58 AM
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Money laundering, as mentioned several times, is the art of converting proceeds from crime - often cash - to digits in the banking system that appear to be legitimate income. A million dollars a year from drug sales is useless if you get arrested for tax evasion and you money and assets are seized as soon as you try to buy a car or house.

Money launderers love cash-based businesses. As mentioned, car wash (Breaking Bad) or a bakery (Weeds) was a good way to try and pump those bills in as daily deposits from a legitimate business. Pizza parlors, bars, vending machines - all will allow you to deposit wads of cash and pretend it came from real business.

However, the IRS and DEA aren't stupid. They come and look at the books - did you buy enough flour and cheese to sell that many pizzas? If they watch the business, will they see to foot traffic or listen to enough phone orders to justify the result? Did enough cars drive into the car wash? More sophisticated, is your cash vs. credit/debit receipts consistent with comparable businesses in the area?

If someone buys a house for $40M he may be trying to bribe or influence the seller; but if he turns around and sells the subdivided land to break even, odds are they are both just shrewd businessmen... unless the 3 lot buyers are also foreign buyers, which adds another level of suspicion. (Were they? Probably not.)

However, the question is where the $40M came from. Since it likely was a bank transfer from Russia or some such, it's not proceeds of retail crime looking to get legit. It was and is already in the banking system. No money laundering necessary.
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Old 06-10-2017, 12:03 PM
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The cost to donald was 40 Mill in 2004. He sold it for 100 Mill in 2008, to Vladimir Putins colleague.

It's reportedly a 55 million profit.
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Old 06-10-2017, 04:28 PM
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Money laundering, as mentioned several times, is the art of converting proceeds from crime - often cash - to digits in the banking system that appear to be legitimate income. A million dollars a year from drug sales is useless if you get arrested for tax evasion and you money and assets are seized as soon as you try to buy a car or house.

Money launderers love cash-based businesses. As mentioned, car wash (Breaking Bad) or a bakery (Weeds) was a good way to try and pump those bills in as daily deposits from a legitimate business. Pizza parlors, bars, vending machines - all will allow you to deposit wads of cash and pretend it came from real business.

However, the IRS and DEA aren't stupid. They come and look at the books - did you buy enough flour and cheese to sell that many pizzas? If they watch the business, will they see to foot traffic or listen to enough phone orders to justify the result? Did enough cars drive into the car wash? More sophisticated, is your cash vs. credit/debit receipts consistent with comparable businesses in the area?

If someone buys a house for $40M he may be trying to bribe or influence the seller; but if he turns around and sells the subdivided land to break even, odds are they are both just shrewd businessmen... unless the 3 lot buyers are also foreign buyers, which adds another level of suspicion. (Were they? Probably not.)

However, the question is where the $40M came from. Since it likely was a bank transfer from Russia or some such, it's not proceeds of retail crime looking to get legit. It was and is already in the banking system. No money laundering necessary.
I think in an authoritarian state or other kleptocracies what is illegal gains can be fluid or redefined according to the whims of certain people. Also the motives for parking your money in different places in the world can vary.

I'm sure this environment is very attractive to "kings of debt" in the US.

Anyone doubt that donald will be a natural kleptocrat if we let him?
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Old 06-10-2017, 12:16 PM
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Let me phrase it in another question: What would a convergence of interests between a russian oligarch and donald be based on? Who's doing what to whom and why? What does donald need from him and what does he need from donald?

Could it be partisan to ask this?
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Old 06-10-2017, 12:26 PM
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Let me phrase it in another question: What would a convergence of interests between a russian oligarch and donald be based on? Who's doing what to whom and why? What does donald need from him and what does he need from donald?

Could it be partisan to ask this?
Using gross generalities to hide specifics, in a way that makes it clear what your bias is, sounds partisan to me.

In a way, though, it sort of serves as an example that fits the thread. In that it's an excellent example of PROPAGANDA LAUNDERING, which is similar to money laundering. Taking something of value, which is tainted by illegality or by bias, and then "adjusting" it so that it can be passed off as valuable but NOT tainted, is certainly what this kind of "laundering" is all about.
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Old 06-10-2017, 12:51 PM
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Using gross generalities to hide specifics, in a way that makes it clear what your bias is, sounds partisan to me.

In a way, though, it sort of serves as an example that fits the thread. In that it's an excellent example of PROPAGANDA LAUNDERING, which is similar to money laundering. Taking something of value, which is tainted by illegality or by bias, and then "adjusting" it so that it can be passed off as valuable but NOT tainted, is certainly what this kind of "laundering" is all about.
The idea that it would be "propaganda" to ask about this is an example of a "big lie." I'm not going to live in or support a political "bubble."

The laundering of information that is occurring has to do with the normalization of a disturbed personality for politics, regardless of any presence or absence of financial crimes.

Last edited by drad dog; 06-10-2017 at 12:54 PM.
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Old 06-10-2017, 12:31 PM
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Let me phrase it in another question: What would a convergence of interests between a russian oligarch and donald be based on? Who's doing what to whom and why? What does donald need from him and what does he need from donald?

Could it be partisan to ask this?
From a non-partisan view point, Russian oligarchs need to get their money out of Russia so it can't just be taken away from them in a system which doesn't recognize the concepts of ownership the way we do. Whatever happens to him or his holdings in Russia he now owns a piece of property in the US, as rock solid an investment as you can find anywhere in the world. Any capitalist will want to make deals that enrich themselves, I'd sell my home to a Russian oligarch for a $60 million profit if it was legal, I'll find some way to alleviate any feeling of guilt based on the source of the money. You could look for all sorts of political motivations in any particular case but profit alone can be the sole motivation.

You would need to ask in a different forum if you want to delve into the possible additional motivations.
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Old 06-10-2017, 12:41 PM
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OP was poisoned by the example used. Moved from General Questions to IMHO.

samclem, moderator.
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Old 06-10-2017, 01:16 PM
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When a person sales a property for what appears to be 150% profit. That does not make it a case of money laundering. I paid $42,000 for my house if I sell it for $785,000 (according to Zillow I could) does that mean I would be guilty of money laundering? And there are a lot of properties being sold to foreign investors for those kinds of prices. Does that make for a lot of money laundering? It looks like according to you it would.

The kind of questions and information in your OP show a biases.

Trump on his own can make himself look bad without trying to make him look bad for doing business.

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Old 06-10-2017, 03:26 PM
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When a person sales a property for what appears to be 150% profit. That does not make it a case of money laundering. I paid $42,000 for my house if I sell it for $785,000 (according to Zillow I could) does that mean I would be guilty of money laundering? And there are a lot of properties being sold to foreign investors for those kinds of prices. Does that make for a lot of money laundering? It looks like according to you it would.

The kind of questions and information in your OP show a biases.

Trump on his own can make himself look bad without trying to make him look bad for doing business.
How long did you hold your home? Did you sell it to a rich oligarch who is a putin friend?

Do you really think this sale is normal?

So at the end of this, if it is "funny," are you going to be shocked?
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Old 06-10-2017, 06:28 PM
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How long did you hold your home? Did you sell it to a rich oligarch who is a putin friend?

Do you really think this sale is normal?

So at the end of this, if it is "funny," are you going to be shocked?
You gave an example of a sale that has happened more than once with large properties, and are only calling it odd because the seller made a large profit. It happens and that does not mean it is money laundering. There are other questions to aszk before asking if it is a case of money laundering.
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Old 06-10-2017, 06:33 PM
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You gave an example of a sale that has happened more than once with large properties, and are only calling it odd because the seller made a large profit. It happens and that does not mean it is money laundering. There are other questions to aszk before asking if it is a case of money laundering.
What are you trying to say?

I'm trying to say that money laundering is one of a number of corrupt practices which are adjacent to each other. The more money involved, the stranger any transaction, and the more lies around it, the more we need answers.

Last edited by drad dog; 06-10-2017 at 06:37 PM.
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Old 06-10-2017, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by drad dog View Post
Who did he sell it to? Did he know this person. Where did this person get his money and what and why does he want to do this with it? How did he hook up with donald?

Donald couldn't subdivide? I thought that was his business. He left 100 Million on the table cause he was too busy doing what?

You might think it's a crummy thing to do to ask this. I think it's normal day at the office for the FBI, and frankly for any taxpayer at this point.
Trump left nothing on the table. He bought the property in a distressed sale and flipped it for a big profit. People do this every day, though not at that scale. He sold it at market price, evidenced by the buyer's ability to sell only the land at about the same price.

You have provided no facts to show that this was anything but a completely legitimate transaction. There was no prior relationship with the buyer. There was no motivation by the buyer to inflate the sale price to benefit Trump. The sale happened in 2008, before he was even a presidential candidate. There is no factual indication this was money laundering in any form. What's your point?
  #36  
Old 06-10-2017, 03:58 PM
drad dog is offline
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Cooking with gas: Cite for these things?

It was a record price for a single family home in the US, in a downward market, to a russian oligarch and putin friend. Who he denies having met, although this mans plane has been known to follow trumps travel schedule.

You know donalds russian connections go back a long way, yes, before the election. So what? That's the whole point here. It is not a sudden event.

I'm saying that I don't know the motives involved but that any taxpayer needs to know more.

This is why they say "follow the money." Not because they are defining "money laundering" as in or out of the picture so they can move on into obliviousness, but because corruption takes many forms and is as fungible as money is.

If this is not smoke, then you have to buy the alternate reality of one news network above the crowd sourced journalistic efforts of everyone else.

Last edited by drad dog; 06-10-2017 at 03:59 PM.
  #37  
Old 06-10-2017, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by drad dog View Post
Cooking with gas: Cite for these things?

It was a record price for a single family home in the US, in a downward market, to a russian oligarch and putin friend. Who he denies having met, although this mans plane has been known to follow trumps travel schedule.
Is your claim that the price the oligarch paid was inflated over market value?

I say it wasn't, and my cite is: the oligarch sold the property for that same price. That's pretty much the definition of market value.

So be specific: what are you saying happened, and how is it illegal?
  #38  
Old 06-10-2017, 03:52 PM
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It's reportedly a 55 million profit.
Which is probably the first time in his life that one of Trump's business deals made money. No wonder he cottons to Putin so much.

But it's not money laundering, not in the slightest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by samclem View Post
Moved from General Questions to IMHO.
Hooray!! Bring on the political snarks!
  #39  
Old 06-10-2017, 04:10 PM
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Which is probably the first time in his life that one of Trump's business deals made money. No wonder he cottons to Putin so much.

But it's not money laundering, not in the slightest.


Hooray!! Bring on the political snarks!
OK and I regret my thread title. I meant a broader overview. I think I might make another thread. We'll see. Every day is a new surprise in this new great america.
  #40  
Old 06-10-2017, 04:37 PM
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A terrific amount of expensive properties in London and the Home Counties --- and I have no doubt in America and France --- were sold to massively wealthy Russians from the 1990s to now. Were all these sellers being bribed or wanting contacts with Dread Vladimir ?


You would have done better to make a thread on Trump's property deals and leave money laundering out of it.
  #41  
Old 06-10-2017, 06:37 PM
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A terrific amount of expensive properties in London and the Home Counties --- and I have no doubt in America and France --- were sold to massively wealthy Russians from the 1990s to now. Were all these sellers being bribed or wanting contacts with Dread Vladimir ?


You would have done better to make a thread on Trump's property deals and leave money laundering out of it.
I agree with this statement. The money laundering comment shows an ax to grind no matter what the facts are. If he sold the property at market value does not hold up. Money can be made by flipping property large money.
  #42  
Old 06-10-2017, 06:39 PM
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I agree with this statement. The money laundering comment shows an ax to grind no matter what the facts are. If he sold the property at market value does not hold up. Money can be made by flipping property large money.
Can I ask where you are from?
  #43  
Old 06-10-2017, 08:28 PM
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Can I ask where you are from?
California where people who make money in real estate are considered evil.

Where are you from?
  #44  
Old 06-10-2017, 05:10 PM
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This is the thing about dictatorships. They define what's illegal. So specific, and picayune arguments about the illegality of any act, or the definition of any act as "illegal" is moot. Sorry lawyers. And these ends are also served by muddying the idea of truth, and making false equivalencies out of any issue. Using "fake news," crying 'fake news" at others, and lots of strategies are in play.

This is from quimpers first link (Thanks very much quimper) : “He takes what he wants. When you are president of Russia, you don’t need a written contract. You are the law.” So who wants to argue what's illegal and what's not? Not me. Yet. Give me some time.

Things that stink aren't necessarily illegal. Impeachable offenses aren't either. But govt needs to avoid this.

Last edited by drad dog; 06-10-2017 at 05:11 PM.
  #45  
Old 06-10-2017, 05:57 PM
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This is the thing about dictatorships. They define what's illegal.
The United States and each state also define what's illegal, and they are not dictatorships. So while it's true that dictatorships define what's illegal, so do other forms of government.

Quote:
So specific, and picayune arguments about the illegality of any act, or the definition of any act as "illegal" is moot. Sorry lawyers. And these ends are also served by muddying the idea of truth, and making false equivalencies out of any issue. Using "fake news," crying 'fake news" at others, and lots of strategies are in play.
The only one muddying anything here is you. You've gone from a vague assertion about one crime to mumbling about fake news and dictatorships without forming a single clear argument.

What, specifically, is your argument?

Last edited by Bricker; 06-10-2017 at 05:58 PM.
  #46  
Old 06-10-2017, 06:31 PM
drad dog is offline
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The United States and each state also define what's illegal, and they are not dictatorships. So while it's true that dictatorships define what's illegal, so do other forms of government.



The only one muddying anything here is you. You've gone from a vague assertion about one crime to mumbling about fake news and dictatorships without forming a single clear argument.

What, specifically, is your argument?
I'm fairly confident with the idea that US and it's subdivisions lawmaking is not analogous to russia or other authoritarian dictatorships. That's just my taste.

I'm also pretty sure that, by US standards, most of the gains of russian oligarchs are ill-gotten. So if donny has chasing them we have a civic problem.

The thread should probably have been based around this as it's topic:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreig..._Practices_Act
  #47  
Old 06-10-2017, 07:15 PM
Evan Drake is offline
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Thus, Trumpo buys a building; Trumpo sells that building; [ At this point a miracle occurs ]; Trumpo has so committed money laundering; this means Trumpo has committed a number of allied corrupt practices; we demand answers; Trumpo is impeached for his property selling to a RUSSIAN; Trumpo is sent to jail for the rest of his natural.


Hillary is acclaimed Winner and is president for life !






And no-one knows who Dmitry Rybolovlev is.
  #48  
Old 06-10-2017, 08:46 PM
Wesley Clark is offline
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Originally Posted by drad dog View Post
In the case of russian oligarchs, what is their motive for these transactions? What is it accomplishing in terms of financial and legal aims?
All we can do is speculate. What would the oligarch get out of it? I don't think much, however Putin has the oligarchs on a leash and he has supposedly worked with Trump for years according to Christopher Steele (Steele claims that Trump has spied on powerful Russians in the US and given that info to Putin).

Steele said that Trump didn't take up sweetheart deals that the Russians offered him FWIW.

But I really don't know what an oligarch gets out of paying 2x more for a home. Generally the person laundering the money is the one that buys something cheap and sells it more expensively. Not the person who buys it expensively.
  #49  
Old 06-11-2017, 12:14 PM
drad dog is offline
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All we can do is speculate. What would the oligarch get out of it? I don't think much, however Putin has the oligarchs on a leash and he has supposedly worked with Trump for years according to Christopher Steele (Steele claims that Trump has spied on powerful Russians in the US and given that info to Putin).

Steele said that Trump didn't take up sweetheart deals that the Russians offered him FWIW.

But I really don't know what an oligarch gets out of paying 2x more for a home. Generally the person laundering the money is the one that buys something cheap and sells it more expensively. Not the person who buys it expensively.
I think we're in a new normal that consists of the super rich and connected greasing the skids for each other in many ways.

We're at a crossroads. We can either use common sense and "follow the money" or else lie down and play dead by saying "but there is no law against that thing you just cited, on the books right now"

I don't think we have time to do that.
  #50  
Old 06-11-2017, 12:26 PM
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Also Wesley: The oligarch, in the most simple scenario, may be an emissary of putin and doing his bidding in the relationship between one leader and another, when they both are acting in the interests of themselves and not the nations they are leading. It doesn't take a very vivid imagination to see that these things have motives to them.
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