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  #1  
Old 10-07-2019, 09:54 AM
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We Have Betrayed the Kurds


I am sick to my heart. We have handed our allies over to the Turks. There will be a bloodbath.


They were fools to trust us.


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  #2  
Old 10-07-2019, 10:06 AM
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Republicans have been criticizing Trump's decision - even Lindsey Graham.

Lindsey Graham:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindsey Graham
I don’t know all the details regarding President Trump’s decision in northern Syria. In process of setting up phone call with Secretary Pompeo.

If press reports are accurate this is a disaster in the making.
...
* Ensures ISIS comeback.
* Forces Kurds to align with Assad and Iran.
* Destroys Turkey’s relationship with U.S. Congress.
* Will be a stain on America’s honor for abandoning the Kurds.
...
Also, if this plan goes forward will introduce Senate resolution opposing and asking for reversal of this decision. Expect it will receive strong bipartisan support.
...
The most probable outcome of this impulsive decision is to ensure Iran’s domination of Syria.

The U.S. now has no leverage and Syria will eventually become a nightmare for Israel.
...
I feel very bad for the Americans and allies who have sacrificed to destroy the ISIS Caliphate because this decision virtually reassures the reemergence of ISIS. So sad. So dangerous.

President Trump may be tired of fighting radical Islam. They are NOT tired of fighting us.
...
Finally, this decision makes it difficult for the U.S. to recruit allies against radical Islam.
...
By abandoning the Kurds we have sent the most dangerous signal possible – America is an unreliable ally and it’s just a matter of time before China, Russia, Iran, and North Korea act out in dangerous ways.
Nikki Haley:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikki Haley
We must always have the backs of our allies, if we expect them to have our back. The Kurds were instrumental in our successful fight against ISIS in Syria. Leaving them to die is a big mistake. #TurkeyIsNotOurFriend
Sen. Mitt Romney:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sen. Mitt Romney
The President’s decision to abandon our Kurd allies in the face of an assault by Turkey is a betrayal. It says that America is an unreliable ally; it facilitates ISIS resurgence; and it presages another humanitarian disaster.
  #3  
Old 10-07-2019, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Walken After Midnight View Post
Republicans have been criticizing Trump's decision - even Lindsey Graham.

Lindsey Graham:
Nikki Haley:

Sen. Mitt Romney:
Uh oh, I hope they're prepared. Trump is going to tweet on his phone insulting nicknames for all of them.
  #4  
Old 10-07-2019, 10:23 AM
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Britain and France, both of whom have military forces in Syria, had no idea Trump had green-lighted Erdogan's invasion.
  #5  
Old 10-08-2019, 05:42 AM
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Republicans have been criticizing Trump's decision - even Lindsey Graham.

Lindsey Graham:
A former opponent of Trump, then a craven supporter (see his almost unhinged comments on the whistleblower scandal) and, days later, a critic again. Mr. Graham, please reconsider your political choices.
  #6  
Old 10-07-2019, 10:09 AM
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Russia - a win for their client state, Syria
Iran - a win, eliminating a threat on their border
Turkey - a win, removing the possibility of more support for Turkish Kurds
Isis - a win, probably leading to release/escape of captive fighters

United States - world humiliation and distrust
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  #7  
Old 10-07-2019, 11:05 AM
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Russia - a win for their client state, Syria
Iran - a win, eliminating a threat on their border
Turkey - a win, removing the possibility of more support for Turkish Kurds
Isis - a win, probably leading to release/escape of captive fighters

United States - world humiliation and distrust
Sure, but Hillary Clinton had a private email server. Thumbs up, Trump voters!
  #8  
Old 10-07-2019, 11:18 AM
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Sure, but Hillary Clinton had a private email server. Thumbs up, Trump voters!
How will they ever heal if you keep bringing up that painful memory for them?
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  #9  
Old 10-07-2019, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by jasg View Post
Russia - a win for their client state, Syria
Iran - a win, eliminating a threat on their border
Turkey - a win, removing the possibility of more support for Turkish Kurds
Isis - a win, probably leading to release/escape of captive fighters

United States - world humiliation and distrust
Agreed.

And add:

Kurds - a disastrous loss
European allies of USA - you absolutely can't trust the current US President
  #10  
Old 10-11-2019, 10:17 AM
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Agreed.

And add:

Kurds - a disastrous loss
European allies of USA - you absolutely can't trust the current US President
especially when Trump said ISIS members would head to Europe (like they would feel good about him un-caring about their safety).

But dumb comments that 'Kurds did not help at Normandy"?? How could they have helped 2000 miles away?
  #11  
Old 10-11-2019, 10:36 AM
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e
But dumb comments that 'Kurds did not help at Normandy"?? How could they have helped 2000 miles away?
I mean, their leadership have been willing to join with every damn imperialist at the drop of a hat so was probably an oversight.
  #12  
Old 10-12-2019, 04:50 PM
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I mean, their leadership have been willing to join with every damn imperialist at the drop of a hat so was probably an oversight.
I felt this was worth quoting. AK84, you are Pakistani, correct? So therefore you do in fact have an educated opinion on what it's like to be a slave state, then an Imperialist client state, then an independent. In other words, a traditional "area of the world" where your tribes assimilated into what you have today. The Kurds are no different, but because they are stateless, and in some areas practice the "wrong" form of Islam, they are vilified...as I am sure the Brits once (and in some cases, continue to) do to people from your culture, many of which are English/British educated.

Would you trade all of that to be in the Kurd's position right now? Turkey is a nominal ally of yours, India, not so much. This is all happening in your part of the world. I am extremely interested in an opinion from that part of the world. Your comment about them "willing to join every imperialist at the drop of a hat" is a bad start man, especially considering what Pakistani culture went through to get where they are. If Kurdistan was a nation, and Pakistanis "just" an ethnic group with no country, would you feel the same way?
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  #13  
Old 10-09-2019, 04:42 AM
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Originally Posted by jasg View Post
Russia - a win for their client state, Syria
Iran - a win, eliminating a threat on their border
Turkey - a win, removing the possibility of more support for Turkish Kurds
Isis - a win, probably leading to release/escape of captive fighters

United States - world humiliation and distrust
Accurate, except for that last bit.

United States - business as per usual. sadly.
  #14  
Old 10-09-2019, 05:38 AM
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Accurate, except for that last bit.

United States - business as per usual. sadly.
I think that Trump's appalling behaviour makes this situation much worse than usual.
Public statements about how incredibly wonderful he is and threats to destroy an allies' economy must make everyone shudder.
  #15  
Old 10-12-2019, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by jasg View Post
Russia - a win for their client state, Syria
Iran - a win, eliminating a threat on their border
Turkey - a win, removing the possibility of more support for Turkish Kurds
Isis - a win, probably leading to release/escape of captive fighters

United States - world humiliation and distrust
I hate to beat this drum, or feather your cap because this sucks, but got it in one. Evry bit of it is true.
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  #16  
Old 10-07-2019, 10:13 AM
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Again.
Short-sighted and cruel, but what can we expect?
Argh.
  #17  
Old 10-07-2019, 10:26 AM
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I find myself of 2 minds on this one.

1) Yes, we have betrayed the Kurds. He also said the Kurds,have been paid “massive amounts of money and equipment” by the U.S. That is a truly despicable statement.

2) Trump said, “It is time for us to get out of these ridiculous Endless Wars, many of them tribal, and bring our soldiers home.” Arguably, he is not wrong about this.

It seems to me that once again Trump is doing something that is at least arguably good in the worst possible way and for the worst possible reasons. And in a way that is guaranteed to cause the most amount of harm to others.
  #18  
Old 10-07-2019, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Paul in Qatar View Post
I am sick to my heart. We have handed our allies over to the Turks. There will be a bloodbath.


They were fools to trust us.


-=Link=-
They were fools to trust us again.
  #19  
Old 10-07-2019, 10:45 AM
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They were fools to trust us again.
Again, again. This is at least the 3rd time in less than 30 years. At this point, the only reliable thing about us asking for their help is the end result being that we hang them out to dry in return.
  #20  
Old 10-07-2019, 12:23 PM
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They were fools to trust us again.
It’s fucking awesome to fight “just wars”. As long as someone else’s house is destroyed and someone else’s son dies.
  #21  
Old 10-07-2019, 03:02 PM
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They were fools to trust us again.
Agreed. This is like the third or fourth time we've betrayed them.
  #22  
Old 10-10-2019, 01:36 AM
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I find myself of 2 minds on this one.

1) Yes, we have betrayed the Kurds. He also said the Kurds,have been paid “massive amounts of money and equipment” by the U.S. That is a truly despicable statement.

2) Trump said, “It is time for us to get out of these ridiculous Endless Wars, many of them tribal, and bring our soldiers home.” Arguably, he is not wrong about this.

It seems to me that once again Trump is doing something that is at least arguably good in the worst possible way and for the worst possible reasons. And in a way that is guaranteed to cause the most amount of harm to others.
The second one sounds like a nice sentiment, but in this case it's actually bullshit.

As the LA Times editorial points out:
Quote:
Even if you sympathize — as this page does — with the desire to keep the U.S. out of quagmires, unwinnable conflicts and “endless wars” that don’t affect vital American interests, the stabilizing role played by U.S. forces in Syria is not an example of intolerable overreach. It’s a markedly more modest and less dangerous commitment than the continued U.S. military mission in Afghanistan and it serves two purposes: protecting the Syrian Kurds from Turkey (which sees them as terrorists aligned with Kurdish insurgents from Turkey) and preventing the resurgence of Islamic State.

There is a danger that U.S. troops might stay too long in Syria and become hostages to regional politics. But decisions on whether and when to withdraw those forces should be made by the president after respectful consultation with experts and allies, the sort of deliberative process Trump disdains. This episode is a reminder that, whether or not Congress concludes that Trump committed “high crimes and misdemeanors” deserving of impeachment, he is operatically incompetent in discharging the duties of the presidency.
  #23  
Old 10-10-2019, 01:42 AM
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Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham of South Carolina and Democratic Sen. Chris Van Hollen of Maryland on Wednesday announced a framework to place immediate sanctions on senior Turkish government officials, ban all US military business and military transactions with Turkey, and immediately activate 2017 sanctions on the country until Ankara stops its operations against the Kurds.
Hey here's an idea Senator Graham:

How about if you work to remove the FUCKING MADMAN who started this whole shit-show off with his insane tweet that gave the go-ahead for the slaughter?

It's not hard - simply work with the Democrats to release EVIDENCE for Trump's impeachment investigation? You don't even have to do anything difficult. You just have to do WHAT IS LEGAL AND MORAL. Think you can manage that, you pustule?
  #24  
Old 10-07-2019, 10:30 AM
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It's only a matter of time and 10,000 ISIS fighters will "escape". I seriously doubt Turkey will keep them secured.

It is deeply troubling to see the US turn our backs on an ally. The Kurds have been very reliable and deserve better than this betrayal.

I see many Rep Senators are already speaking out. I hope they will get this terrible decision reversed.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbs...te-house-says/

Quote:
The White House statement Sunday said Turkey would take custody of foreign fighters captured in the U.S.-led campaign against ISIS who have been held by the Kurdish forces supported by the U.S.

The prisoners include about 2,500 highly dangerous foreign fighters from Europe and elsewhere whose native countries have been reluctant to take them back, and another 10,000 or so captured fighters from Syria and Iraq.

Last edited by aceplace57; 10-07-2019 at 10:34 AM.
  #25  
Old 10-07-2019, 10:48 AM
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The instances in which we have not betrayed the Kurds have been few and far between, and fleeting, and both preceded and succeeded by disappointing betrayals.

I won't be surprised if Turkey uses the detainees as sort of reverse-hostages: "Europe, give us ________, or else we'll send your foreign fighters back".

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 10-07-2019 at 10:49 AM.
  #26  
Old 10-07-2019, 10:58 AM
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Anyone feel better after Trump's latest Tweets?

Quote:
As I have stated strongly before, and just to reiterate, if Turkey does anything that I, in my great and unmatched wisdom, consider to be off limits, I will totally destroy and obliterate the Economy of Turkey (I’ve done before!). They must, with Europe and others, watch over...

....the captured ISIS fighters and families. The U.S. has done far more than anyone could have ever expected, including the capture of 100% of the ISIS Caliphate. It is time now for others in the region, some of great wealth, to protect their own territory. THE USA IS GREAT!
I guess his "great and unmatched wisdom" makes it all better now
  #27  
Old 10-07-2019, 11:16 AM
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Anyone feel better after Trump's latest Tweets?



I guess his "great and unmatched wisdom" makes it all better now
Is there no beginning to his "great and unmatched wisdom"?
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  #28  
Old 10-07-2019, 01:34 PM
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Is there no beginning to his "great and unmatched wisdom"?
The story is more fun if you start from when Dorothy's house lands on The Wicked Witch of The East... and not when she, The Tin Man, The Scare Crow, and The Cowardly Lion go to visit Trump.
  #29  
Old 10-07-2019, 02:10 PM
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The story is more fun if you start from when Dorothy's house lands on The Wicked Witch of The East... and not when she, The Tin Man, The Scare Crow, and The Cowardly Lion go to visit Trump.
"I need a brain!"

"I need a heart!"

"I need courage!"

"Gentlemen, you are shit out of luck."
  #30  
Old 10-07-2019, 02:22 PM
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Is there no beginning to his "great and unmatched wisdom"?
Love it!
  #31  
Old 10-07-2019, 11:38 AM
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Anyone feel better after Trump's latest Tweets?



I guess his "great and unmatched wisdom" makes it all better now
I went and double-checked this on Twitter, because I can't tell the difference between parody and Trump anymore. He sounds like he's playing the Wizard. Not for the first time, I question his fitness for office.
  #32  
Old 10-07-2019, 12:25 PM
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Anyone feel better after Trump's latest Tweets?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunny Daze View Post
I went and double-checked this on Twitter, because I can't tell the difference between parody and Trump anymore. He sounds like he's playing the Wizard. Not for the first time, I question his fitness for office.
Ditto. I can't believe that any sane person would refer to their "great and unmatched wisdom." And then he goes on to threaten to "destroy and obliterate the Economy of Turkey (I’ve done before!)"?

On a daily basis, Trump seems to try to break his old record for lunacy. He sounds more and more deranged as time goes by.
  #33  
Old 10-08-2019, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by jasg View Post
Anyone feel better after Trump's latest Tweets?

Quote:
As I have stated strongly before, and just to reiterate, if Turkey does anything that I, in my great and unmatched wisdom, consider to be off limits, I will totally destroy and obliterate the Economy of Turkey (I’ve done before!). They must, with Europe and others, watch over...

....the captured ISIS fighters and families. The U.S. has done far more than anyone could have ever expected, including the capture of 100% of the ISIS Caliphate. It is time now for others in the region, some of great wealth, to protect their own territory. THE USA IS GREAT!
I guess his "great and unmatched wisdom" makes it all better now

I dont' feel better, but I do find myself wondering when he had a casino in Istanbul.
  #34  
Old 10-15-2019, 11:48 PM
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Anyone feel better after Trump's latest Tweets?



I guess his "great and unmatched wisdom" makes it all better now
He... he...actually said that?
  #35  
Old 10-07-2019, 11:23 AM
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I, for one, am looking forward to the mass uptick in Kurdish terrorism in Turkey following this particular stupidity.
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Last edited by Grey; 10-07-2019 at 11:24 AM.
  #36  
Old 10-07-2019, 11:27 AM
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"As I have stated strongly before, and just to reiterate, if Turkey does anything that I, in my great and unmatched wisdom, consider to be off limits, I will totally destroy and obliterate the Economy of Turkey (I’ve done before!). ..."
Yup. Ol' boy's got it together, don't he?
  #37  
Old 10-07-2019, 11:48 AM
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I, for one, am looking forward to the mass uptick in Kurdish terrorism in Turkey following this particular stupidity.
It'll be interesting to see Leopards and M60s burning on the side of Syrian roads rather than the regular T-XX trash.
  #38  
Old 10-07-2019, 12:15 PM
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The fun will start when idiots begin threatening to eject Turkey from NATO. You then wind up with Russia spinning up weapons sales to a country choked full of American tech and further encircling Ukraine. Should be a thrill a minute.
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  #39  
Old 10-07-2019, 12:35 PM
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Deciding to stop fighting endless wars is “deranged”.?
Of course considering it’s Trump, its not brilliance it’s it’s more a case of the the child who said the Emperor has no clothes.

It’s darkly hilarious. Pro War progressives and an far right peace party.
  #40  
Old 10-07-2019, 12:58 PM
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Deciding to stop fighting endless wars is “deranged”.?
Of course considering it’s Trump, its not brilliance it’s it’s more a case of the the child who said the Emperor has no clothes.

It’s darkly hilarious. Pro War progressives and an far right peace party.
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  #41  
Old 10-07-2019, 01:41 PM
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Deciding to stop fighting endless wars is “deranged”.?
No...a president of the United States referring to his own supposed "great and unmatched wisdom" and threatening to "destroy and obliterate the Economy of Turkey (I’ve done before!)" is deranged.
  #42  
Old 10-07-2019, 12:51 PM
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What? Trump screws someone once he's gotten what he wanted? Do tell. Has Turkey started an investigation or something?
  #43  
Old 10-07-2019, 01:00 PM
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Sens. Romney and Murphy:
Quote:
"Barring a reversal of this decision, the Admin must come before the Senate Foreign Relations Cmte. and explain to the American people how betraying an ally and ceding influence to terrorists and adversaries is not disastrous for our national security."
  #44  
Old 10-07-2019, 01:10 PM
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Pelosi and McConnell can agree on one thing:
Quote:
Minutes apart, Speaker Pelosi and Majority Leader McConnell call on Trump to reverse on Syria

Pelosi: "Decision... sends a dangerous message to Iran and Russia"

McConnell: “A precipitous withdrawal of U.S. forces from Syria would only benefit Russia, Iran, and the Assad regime"
  #45  
Old 10-07-2019, 01:19 PM
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(Current) Secretary of Defense Mark Esper:
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DOD does not endorse a Turkish operation in Northern Syria. We will work w/our @NATO allies & Coalition partners to reiterate to Turkey the possible destabilizing consequences of potential actions to Turkey, the region, & beyond. Full statement here:
  #46  
Old 10-07-2019, 02:11 PM
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Cornfielded?
  #47  
Old 10-07-2019, 02:15 PM
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Cornfielded?
Yep. It didn't sound like the Secretary of Defense/Department of Defense were on the same page as the Commander-in-Chief, so it looks like the statement's been pulled.
  #48  
Old 10-07-2019, 02:25 PM
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Yep. It didn't sound like the Secretary of Defense/Department of Defense were on the same page as the Commander-in-Chief, so it looks like the statement's been pulled.
The DoD's job is to follow the President's (legal) orders.
  #49  
Old 10-07-2019, 02:32 PM
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The DoD's job is to follow the President's (legal) orders.
Exactly. It's an indicator of just how extraordinary and ill-advised Trump's decision was that such a statement was made.
  #50  
Old 10-07-2019, 04:00 PM
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Yep. It didn't sound like the Secretary of Defense/Department of Defense were on the same page as the Commander-in-Chief, so it looks like the statement's been pulled.
Interestingly, the post is still on the DoD Twitter page as coming from a Jonathan Raff Hoffman (Assistant to the Secretary of Defense for Public Affairs) which links to a similar statement on defense.gov.
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