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  #51  
Old 10-07-2019, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic View Post
When the best they can do is to say "Ha ha, those insane tweets from the whitehouse? Ummmmm... a Joke! Ya, that's the ticket, it was a funny joke"
There aren't many moments of levity in this debacle, but it is actually extremely funny to suggest that Trump, a man who doesn't laugh, is joking. That's true comic genius.

Anyway I'm out before I'm tempted to dogpile. Trump is clearly a stooge. He's using every tool in his formidable arsenal to block investigation that would reveal such documentary evidence, therefore I find it patently ridiculous for the OP to challenge me, Joe SDMB Poster, to furnish that documentary evidence. I guess it's a safe arguing position, but what's the point?
  #52  
Old 10-08-2019, 03:25 AM
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This may prove unsatisfactory to all concerned, including myself, because it's 0400 here on the East Coast of the US and I'm not particularly cogent nor particularly ambitious at the moment. There will be no supporting documentation in this post, although much exists on the IntraWebz and if need be I may be willing to dredge some up later on.

I'm convinced that Trump spent a decade or more engaged in shady (read: likely illegal) business deals with Russian oligarchs. After his father's estate was distributed and he could no longer run to Daddy to bail him out of his disastrous real estate deals, and after almost all banks learned not to lend him money, DeutscheBank became his lender of first and last resort. DeustcheBank, it should be noted, has some massive legal problems with regard to laundering Russian money. Also, in this period, Trump's businesses have done a great deal of business with Russians; while I imagine some of these must have been straightforward transactions, some of them raise eyebrows even among the jaded. Steve Bannon, IIRC, even went on record saying that the Mueller investigation would turn out to be "all about money laundering."

Can I prove any of this? Nope. But if the OP is looking for explanations of how/why Trump may be considered a Russian asset, my answer, based upon much circumstantial evidence and Trump's behavior patterns, would be: "He laundered money for Russian mobsters/oligarchs because he needed the payoffs to stay afloat, and Putin knows this because he is the greatest Russian mobster of all. This is why we will never see Trump's tax returns -- well, this and all the other, domestic tax fraud he's been up to lo these many years. And while the pee tape incident may not have occurred, I'd bet a bottle of mid-shelf that Trump is afraid of something having been videotaped in a hotel room."

Last edited by mjmlabs; 10-08-2019 at 03:28 AM.
  #53  
Old 10-08-2019, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by JohnT View Post
The Trump Administration is considering pulling out of the Open Skies Treaty, which allows the United States and our allies and partners in Europe to monitor Russian military deployments. The House Foreign Affairs sent a letter to the head of the NSC today protesting this move:

https://foreignaffairs.house.gov/_ca...eaty-final.pdf

I still guess we need to see that signed agreement, eh, Fiddle Peghead?
Ignoring your mockery, you have linked to a letter essentially arguing that it's a bad idea to withdraw from Open Skies. Have you bothered to look into why Trump may think this is a good idea, or are you just assuming it's because of what Putin wants? This is the key question I would ask anyone when something like this comes up.
  #54  
Old 10-08-2019, 07:38 AM
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Missed edit window.

ETA: Being that I'm starting work, I don't have any more time right now for this, other than to say the first few links I saw don't even say how they know Trump wants to do this. This for instance says nothing specific. Anyway, will look at it later.
  #55  
Old 10-08-2019, 07:52 AM
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Newsweek's website says that there's been nothing from the White House one way or another as to whether it's true, or what the rationale would be regarding such a move.
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  #56  
Old 10-08-2019, 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Fiddle Peghead View Post
Missed edit window.

ETA: Being that I'm starting work, I don't have any more time right now for this, other than to say the first few links I saw don't even say how they know Trump wants to do this. This for instance says nothing specific. Anyway, will look at it later.
Imagine this...

... Imagine that the Chair of the House Foreign Affairs Committee may have sources unavailable to rando SDMB posters.

... Imagine he, like a whistleblower, hears shit coming out of the White House.

... Imagine he confirms what he's hearing.

... Imagine he writes a letter condemning what he's hearing and asks for reassurances that this is not the developing policy.

... Imagine that the WH & State Departments are not responding to requests.

https://amp.businessinsider.com/us-p...report-2019-10

Imagine all this, FP, and then ask yourself

Who knows more: me, doing a quick Google search b4 work, or the Chair of the House Foreign Affairs Committee?

Last edited by JohnT; 10-08-2019 at 08:06 AM.
  #57  
Old 10-08-2019, 08:15 AM
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Trump is a Russian intelligence asset in the sense that he is a corrupt and deeply stupid man who wants to open hotels in Moscow. He doesn't understand how he is doing Putin's bidding, but he clearly is. All of his major foreign policy actions have been catering to Russian interests: undermining NATO and fostering divisions within our alliances strengthens Russia's position in the world. Look at Ukraine, Trump resisted providing aid to the Ukrainians as long as he could and when he could no longer hold it off, he tried to cash it in for personal gain. There's a good article in Politico on how the Ukraine scandal helps Russia.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/st...ne-call-229243
Quote:
The biggest beneficiary of this latest Trump-derived scandal is the Kremlin. This isn’t some theoretical future calculus. It has an immediate impact on U.S. security and our strategic outlook. And it enhances the ability of the Kremlin to keep stirring chaos inside the United States.
Trump is bargaining away U.S. security for conspiracy theories about Ukraine and the Bidens that he hopes will not only strengthen his position for his reelection, but will also erase the evidence that Kremlin intervention helped to elect him president. It’s actually hard to know which part of all this makes the Kremlin most happy.
I actually think that some of the people he has surrounded himself with are straight up Russian assets, including the man who was briefly the Nat Security Advisor.

Last edited by madmonk28; 10-08-2019 at 08:19 AM.
  #58  
Old 10-08-2019, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by madmonk28 View Post
He doesn't understand how he is doing Putin's bidding, but he clearly is.
I think he does understand. He wants hotels in Russia so he'll help Putin's agenda. It's quid pro quo just without actually saying those words.
  #59  
Old 10-08-2019, 09:12 AM
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I think he does understand. He wants hotels in Russia so he'll help Putin's agenda. It's quid pro quo just without actually saying those words.
You may be right, I just mean I don't think he's meeting an FSB handler in a DC park or anything. He's just a profoundly corrupt person who is committing crimes right out in the open.
  #60  
Old 10-08-2019, 09:38 AM
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You may be right, I just mean I don't think he's meeting an FSB handler in a DC park or anything. He's just a profoundly corrupt person who is committing crimes right out in the open.
He doesn't need to. The corruption & collusion has been baked in for years. Now that Trump Tower meetings are out of the question, he's got Rudy as his errand boy for any additional communication.
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  #61  
Old 10-08-2019, 09:51 AM
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I'm with this. I have no idea whether Russia has some tangible advantage or compromising materiel over Mr. Trump. It could plausibly be true - or not. I haven't personally been made aware of evidence demonstrating any advantage Russia has over the President, so I assume the President just has a few misplaced priorities which happen to coincide with Russian interests. In my opinion, it's the simplest explanation.

~Max
Just to go on record, and as others have said similar things, this is my feeling too as of now. And the fact that the interests do coincide means that Trump is an asset. It doesn't necessarily mean he is an agent of Russia, and I wish I had used that term in the OP.
  #62  
Old 10-08-2019, 09:53 AM
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He doesn't need to. The corruption & collusion has been baked in for years.

This is one of the things where I smacked my head and said to myself "Well of course."

What's the best way to give money to a hotel owner if you want to gain favor as well as keep it above board? You reserve a bunch of rooms, then don't use them.

https://www.politico.com/news/2019/1...y-rooms-016763
  #63  
Old 10-08-2019, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by HMS Irruncible View Post
Anyway I'm out before I'm tempted to dogpile. Trump is clearly a stooge. He's using every tool in his formidable arsenal to block investigation that would reveal such documentary evidence, therefore I find it patently ridiculous for the OP to challenge me, Joe SDMB Poster, to furnish that documentary evidence. I guess it's a safe arguing position, but what's the point?
Even though you are "out", I would still ask exactly how you define "stooge"? As for Trump using such tools to hide evidence, no doubt that is true. That does not mean documentary evidence of blackmail is necessarily there, even though there is that possibility. He might be trying to hide something else.
  #64  
Old 10-08-2019, 10:19 AM
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Can I prove any of this? Nope. But if the OP is looking for explanations of how/why Trump may be considered a Russian asset, my answer, based upon much circumstantial evidence and Trump's behavior patterns, would be: "He laundered money for Russian mobsters/oligarchs because he needed the payoffs to stay afloat, and Putin knows this because he is the greatest Russian mobster of all. This is why we will never see Trump's tax returns -- well, this and all the other, domestic tax fraud he's been up to lo these many years. And while the pee tape incident may not have occurred, I'd bet a bottle of mid-shelf that Trump is afraid of something having been videotaped in a hotel room."
What I am looking for is why people believe Trump may be being blackmailed by Putin and/or other foreign powers. Thanks for stating your case using something other than a link and saying, here, go see for yourself. I can't have a discussion with a link.

Now, you say you can't prove any of that. By the same token, I can't disprove it. So let's assume this pretty much nails what Trump has been doing with the Russians all these years. I am not clear if you think Trump behaves in the way he does because he knows Putin has the goods on him and that is enough to explain it, or if Putin is actively blackmailing him. Whatever the case is, it seems that people who have been posting here think the former is more likely. Fine. As I alluded to in the OP, finding direct evidence of blackmail will be difficult, so I am happy to just drop that part if no one else has any comments. Either way.
  #65  
Old 10-08-2019, 10:25 AM
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"Your Honor, yes, my client was found in the kitchen of his house, cooking the bodies of his family, the tools of the crime found hidden in his backyard. But nobody saw him butcher them, did they?"

"Damn, man. You got me. Case dismissed!"
  #66  
Old 10-08-2019, 10:27 AM
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Imagine this...

... Imagine that the Chair of the House Foreign Affairs Committee may have sources unavailable to rando SDMB posters.

... Imagine he, like a whistleblower, hears shit coming out of the White House.

... Imagine he confirms what he's hearing.

... Imagine he writes a letter condemning what he's hearing and asks for reassurances that this is not the developing policy.

... Imagine that the WH & State Departments are not responding to requests.

https://amp.businessinsider.com/us-p...report-2019-10

Imagine all this, FP, and then ask yourself

Who knows more: me, doing a quick Google search b4 work, or the Chair of the House Foreign Affairs Committee?
Don't imagine this, because you don't have to. You just did it: You, making a false implication that I think I know more than the Chair of the House Foreign Affairs Committee. It was something I noticed, and I made no other claims about it.

If you want to discuss this without the mockery, then let's do it. Otherwise, what's the point?

Last edited by Fiddle Peghead; 10-08-2019 at 10:27 AM.
  #67  
Old 10-08-2019, 10:27 AM
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My worthless two pennies:

We are never going to truly know if he is or not. I would imagine that people high in the Defense Department and stuff like that have an idea whats going on, but I don't think that the nation as a whole benefits from outing him as a slime ball in cahoots with the KGB.

If they find something bad or are in the middle of something bad, I would imagine he gets kicked out over some tax stuff or money stuff that ISN'T tied to the KBG or DRPK or some other sinister letters. Or maybe he needs to retire or has a health reason to bail. Why would we advertise that any country with a few tens of thousand dollars can put Larry, Moe, or Curly in the White House? That doesn't sound wise to me to let it out, true or not.
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  #68  
Old 10-08-2019, 10:29 AM
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"Your Honor, yes, my client was found in the kitchen of his house, cooking the bodies of his family, the tools of the crime found hidden in his backyard. But nobody saw him butcher them, did they?"

"Damn, man. You got me. Case dismissed!"
Being sure this time to put the emoji outside of the quote:

  #69  
Old 10-08-2019, 10:32 AM
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My worthless two pennies:

We are never going to truly know if he is or not. I would imagine that people high in the Defense Department and stuff like that have an idea whats going on, but I don't think that the nation as a whole benefits from outing him as a slime ball in cahoots with the KGB.

If they find something bad or are in the middle of something bad, I would imagine he gets kicked out over some tax stuff or money stuff that ISN'T tied to the KBG or DRPK or some other sinister letters. Or maybe he needs to retire or has a health reason to bail. Why would we advertise that any country with a few tens of thousand dollars can put Larry, Moe, or Curly in the White House? That doesn't sound wise to me to let it out, true or not.
Not worthless at all, since you make an actual point. And I would agree that it's unlikely info would come out now. This seems like on of those instances that if it happened, it will come out only decades from now, say when classified info is released.
  #70  
Old 10-08-2019, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Fiddle Peghead View Post
Ignoring your mockery, you have linked to a letter essentially arguing that it's a bad idea to withdraw from Open Skies. Have you bothered to look into why Trump may think this is a good idea, or are you just assuming it's because of what Putin wants? This is the key question I would ask anyone when something like this comes up.
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Originally Posted by Fiddle Peghead View Post
Missed edit window.

ETA: Being that I'm starting work, I don't have any more time right now for this, other than to say the first few links I saw don't even say how they know Trump wants to do this. This for instance says nothing specific. Anyway, will look at it later.
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Originally Posted by Fiddle Peghead View Post
Don't imagine this, because you don't have to. You just did it: You, making a false implication that I think I know more than the Chair of the House Foreign Affairs Committee. It was something I noticed, and I made no other claims about it.

If you want to discuss this without the mockery, then let's do it. Otherwise, what's the point?
LOL, your second quoted post literally denies the House Foreign Affairs Committee's letter on what is happening, and then you accuse me of making a "false implication" that you know better than Chairman Engle?

Last edited by JohnT; 10-08-2019 at 10:38 AM.
  #71  
Old 10-08-2019, 11:50 AM
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What I am looking for is why people believe Trump may be being blackmailed by Putin and/or other foreign powers.
And you have been given what you are looking for.

People people believe Trump may be being blackmailed by Putin and/or other foreign powers because his actions are indistinguishable from someone who is being blackmailed by Putin and/or other foreign powers.
  #72  
Old 10-08-2019, 11:57 AM
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Yes.

I don't know if Putin has any material on Trump but there's a lot of evidence about their connections nonetheless.

https://themoscowproject.org/collusi...ter/chapter-1/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Busine...rump_in_Russia


Trump Tower has or had a server connected to Russia:

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_a...th_russia.html

Trump is selling Florida property to Russian Oligarchs:

https://www.newsweek.com/trump-sold-...ocratic-802613

Last year, Trump literally said that he trusts Putin over US intelligence agencies. And don't forget his son bragged on Twitter about his "Russian meeting." It confounds me that anyone would dismiss this as "Fake News."
There is strong evidence that Trump laundered dirty Rubles via his Atlantic City casino.
  #73  
Old 10-08-2019, 03:19 PM
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I doubt that Putin and Trump have conspired to do anything.
I do not doubt that Putin has fed Trump bullshit that would encourage Trump to behave (more) stupidly.

Putin is too smart to actually engage Trump in a way that Trump might invoke Putin's name while either proposing something evil or trying to throw Putin under the bus for an action in which Trump was caught.
  #74  
Old 10-08-2019, 03:33 PM
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There is strong evidence that Trump laundered dirty Rubles via his Atlantic City casino.
What's the evidence?
  #75  
Old 10-08-2019, 03:41 PM
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Sometimes the perception overtakes the reality and it becomes a question of what the subjects responses are on the ground. trimp is acting like he is being "kept," even after it has been pointed out that he needs to go easier on the putin love. The only way to understand it is to prepare for the worst and investigate his behavior down to the last twitch.
  #76  
Old 10-08-2019, 03:46 PM
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What's the evidence?
FinCEN Fines Trump Taj Mahal Casino Resort $10 Million for Significant and Long Standing Anti-Money Laundering Violations
  #77  
Old 10-08-2019, 03:52 PM
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Pfft, that's only evidence if you believe it.
  #78  
Old 10-08-2019, 03:54 PM
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I doubt that Putin and Trump have conspired to do anything.
I do not doubt that Putin has fed Trump bullshit that would encourage Trump to behave (more) stupidly.

Putin is too smart to actually engage Trump in a way that Trump might invoke Putin's name while either proposing something evil or trying to throw Putin under the bus for an action in which Trump was caught.
turnp is not strong or dependable enough to enter into a conspiracy with putin. But the "feeding him BS" explanation isn't adequate. There is a middle way and it is all about trpnis ambition to be a "populist" leader and his naivete about a lot of other things. he is emulating and chasing the populist anti-democratic movements all over the world under putins sponsorship. He is bound to an electoral base who are putins base too in effect. Putin feeds him BS that strokes his narcissism about being the disruptor of the US government. DT has made many many antidemocratic statements since we have known about his "friendship" with vlad. This feels like coercion/pressure and not just feeding bs to an idiot. He gestures towards this constantly, (Pushing nato leaders out of the way etc. etc.) like he is obsessive compulsive.

Trumps base is putins base, for the US. It is his only religion. He is thinking of them all the time, and it's guiding his bad decisions one after the other.
  #79  
Old 10-08-2019, 04:00 PM
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And this CNN article ties the money laundering to Russia.
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Old 10-08-2019, 04:49 PM
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And this CNN article ties the money laundering to Russia.
FWIW, HurricaneDitka asked for evidence of money laundering in a different thread a year and a half ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
Same question for you: what's your basis for this belief?
He was provided these exact links (and more) by these exact posters and never acknowledged receiving them or reading them.
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Old 10-08-2019, 05:31 PM
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*yawn*

Quote:
The Trump Organization is a group of approximately 500 business entities of which Donald Trump is the sole or principal owner. ...

The Trump Organization, through its various constituent companies and partnerships, has or has had interests in real estate development, investing, brokerage, sales and marketing, and property management. Trump Organization entities own, operate, invest in, and develop residential real estate, hotels, resorts, residential towers, and golf courses in various countries. They also operate or have operated in construction, hospitality, casinos, entertainment, book and magazine publishing, broadcast media, model management, retail, financial services, food and beverages, business education, online travel, commercial and private aviation and beauty pageants. Trump Organization entities also own a New York television production company that produced the reality television franchise The Apprentice. Retail operations include or have included fashion apparel, jewelry and accessories, books, home furnishings, lighting products, bath textiles and accessories, bedding, home fragrance products, small leather goods, vodka, wine, barware, steaks, chocolate bars, and bottled spring water.
You want to turn some record-keeping errors and reporting failures at one of those entities into "strong evidence that Trump laundered dirty Rubles". I'm unconvinced. Most large organizations are going to have paperwork errors and code violations. It happens, and it's usually not taken as evidence of some criminal conspiracy on the part of the owners, most of whom aren't involved at the day-to-day operations level where they're even aware of these sort of things usually. But of course, in this case, the owner is President Trump, and so partisan hatred demands that "orange man bad" must press on and insist that he personally did the dirty deed. *shrug*
  #82  
Old 10-08-2019, 05:43 PM
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*yawn*



You want to turn some record-keeping errors and reporting failures at one of those entities into "strong evidence that Trump laundered dirty Rubles". I'm unconvinced. Most large organizations are going to have paperwork errors and code violations. It happens, and it's usually not taken as evidence of some criminal conspiracy on the part of the owners, most of whom aren't involved at the day-to-day operations level where they're even aware of these sort of things usually. But of course, in this case, the owner is President Trump, and so partisan hatred demands that "orange man bad" must press on and insist that he personally did the dirty deed. *shrug*
Number one, what the fuck are you quoting and what does it have to do with anything?

Number two, the largest fine in the history of FinCen was not given for paperwork errors or code violations.

If you don't consider a ten million dollar fine as evidence of wrongdoing, I'm not sure I can take your position seriously.
  #83  
Old 10-08-2019, 06:03 PM
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Number one, what the fuck are you quoting and what does it have to do with anything? ...
Wikipedia


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Originally Posted by Lance Turbo View Post
... Number two, the largest fine in the history of FinCen was not given for paperwork errors or code violations. ...
How confident are you about that "the largest fine in the history of FinCen" claim? They issued a $75M fine against another casino a few months later, and they issued a $110M fine a couple of years ago against BTC-e. Check your facts.

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Originally Posted by Lance Turbo View Post
... If you don't consider a ten million dollar fine as evidence of wrongdoing, I'm not sure I can take your position seriously.
I never said I don't consider it evidence of wrongdoing. I said I don't think record-keeping errors and reporting failures are "strong evidence that Trump laundered dirty Rubles", and that I don't think all the mistakes of an organization that employs many thousands of people can be laid at the feet of its owner as if the owner personally committed them.

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 10-08-2019 at 06:05 PM.
  #84  
Old 10-08-2019, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Intergalactic Gladiator View Post
This is one of the things where I smacked my head and said to myself "Well of course."

What's the best way to give money to a hotel owner if you want to gain favor as well as keep it above board? You reserve a bunch of rooms, then don't use them.

https://www.politico.com/news/2019/1...y-rooms-016763
This is exactly why the Constitution has an emoluments clause. He is not only using his properties to receive bribes, he also has US agencies spend money at his properties.

Last edited by madmonk28; 10-08-2019 at 09:01 PM.
  #85  
Old 10-08-2019, 11:07 PM
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How confident are you about that "the largest fine in the history of FinCen" claim?
It was the largest fine in the history of FinCEN at the time it was issued. Pointless nitpick.

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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
I said I don't think record-keeping errors and reporting failures are "strong evidence that Trump laundered dirty Rubles", and that I don't think all the mistakes of an organization that employs many thousands of people can be laid at the feet of its owner as if the owner personally committed them.
The fine was not issued for record-keeping errors. It was issued for, "significant and long standing anti-money laundering violations," and things that last for over a decade and result in ten million dollar fines can absolutely be laid at the feet of the owner. There's no blaming Rick Perry for this one.
  #86  
Old 10-09-2019, 08:57 AM
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LOL, your second quoted post literally denies the House Foreign Affairs Committee's letter on what is happening, and then you accuse me of making a "false implication" that you know better than Chairman Engle?
My second quote (and the others as well) are accurate. The links I read, and the one I gave here, didn't mention Trump's motivation. I made no claims about knowing better than Engle. Seriously, WTF?
  #87  
Old 10-09-2019, 09:03 AM
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And you have been given what you are looking for.

People people believe Trump may be being blackmailed by Putin and/or other foreign powers because his actions are indistinguishable from someone who is being blackmailed by Putin and/or other foreign powers.
Agreed, I have been given reasons and that's all good. But even assuming his actions are like someone who is being blackmailed doesn't mean he is actually being blackmailed. Would you agree with that? ETA: I ask because your use of the word "indistinguishable" suggests, only suggests so please correct me if I'm wrong, that you are fairly sure this is happening.

Last edited by Fiddle Peghead; 10-09-2019 at 09:07 AM.
  #88  
Old 10-09-2019, 09:21 AM
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That seems a bizarre interpretation of the word indistinguishable eh.
  #89  
Old 10-09-2019, 09:29 AM
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That seems a bizarre interpretation of the word indistinguishable eh.
Sure. I'll accept that. Hence the "suggest" part. Just trying to understand precisely what Lance is saying.
  #90  
Old 10-09-2019, 09:38 AM
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Agreed, I have been given reasons and that's all good. But even assuming his actions are like someone who is being blackmailed doesn't mean he is actually being blackmailed. Would you agree with that?
I'm going to say this is a distinction without a difference. If he is behaving as if he's being blackmailed, then he needs to be investigated as if he's being blackmailed.

It doesn't matter if there's an explicit written blackmail contract. He's acting as if he is being coerced by foreign powers. That's enough to use blackmail as an operating assumption and figure out the details in a congressional or criminal investigation.
  #91  
Old 10-09-2019, 09:38 AM
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My two cents on the money laundering:

Regarding the FinCEN link: It is clearly evidence of money laundering crimes/violations. It is not evidence of the laundering of rubles. Rubles aren't even mentioned. The CNN link says

Quote:
"Taj Mahal was the preferred gambling spot for Russian mobsters living in Brooklyn, according to federal investigators who tracked organized crime in New York City. They also occurred at a time when the Taj Mahal casino was short on cash and on the verge of bankruptcy."
This suggests (weakly, IMO) that rubles may have been laundered. But let's just say if this were presented in a court of law, I'm not sure the judge would allow it.
  #92  
Old 10-09-2019, 09:41 AM
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I'm going to say this is a distinction without a difference. If he is behaving as if he's being blackmailed, then he needs to be investigated as if he's being blackmailed.

It doesn't matter if there's an explicit written blackmail contract. He's acting as if he is being coerced by foreign powers. That's enough to use blackmail as an operating assumption and figure out the details in a congressional or criminal investigation.
I generally agree with this. I'm not exactly sure what your standard of "behaving as if he's being blackmailed" entails, but that is for the person charged with doing the investigating to decide.
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Old 10-09-2019, 09:44 AM
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I think he does understand. He wants hotels in Russia so he'll help Putin's agenda. It's quid pro quo just without actually saying those words.
Which is how mobsters operate. Instinctively they understand that everything they do is prosecutable unless they have plausible deniability of intent. That's why they hide everything they do, and communicate via jokes, hints, insinuations, vague meanings, and symbolic gestures, even for stuff that doesn't really need concealing.

That's why we're unlikely to see any explicit "quid pro quo". That's why we need transparency and professional investigators to discover the facts of the case and construct intent.

Last edited by HMS Irruncible; 10-09-2019 at 09:45 AM.
  #94  
Old 10-09-2019, 09:51 AM
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Agreed, I have been given reasons and that's all good. But even assuming his actions are like someone who is being blackmailed doesn't mean he is actually being blackmailed. Would you agree with that? ETA: I ask because your use of the word "indistinguishable" suggests, only suggests so please correct me if I'm wrong, that you are fairly sure this is happening.
I already stated I see no significant difference between these situations, but it's not just a binary choice either. Suppose Putin is not blackmailing Trump but Trump is afraid that Putin will because he is compromised. It's tacit blackmail, unspoken in the mob style that Trump uses, and I'm sure Putin understands and uses outside of Russia where he can get away with anything.

You don't need to commit a crime to be guilty of a conspiracy, nothing need change hands to establish a quid pro quo, and you may care about intentions at an emotional level but when it comes to national security and what we should do to protect it then there is no difference between malfeasance, misfeasance, and nonfeasance, we need to put an end to it and then the talking heads can spend the rest of their lives arguing about which it is.
  #95  
Old 10-09-2019, 10:21 AM
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Well said. The most important thing is to stop such as you mentioned from happening.
  #96  
Old 10-09-2019, 10:43 AM
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This suggests (weakly, IMO) that rubles may have been laundered. But let's just say if this were presented in a court of law, I'm not sure the judge would allow it.
That's just one article. A quick search also brings up Newsweek and the Washington Post.
  #97  
Old 10-09-2019, 10:55 AM
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That seems a bizarre interpretation of the word indistinguishable eh.
Concur.
  #98  
Old 10-09-2019, 11:03 AM
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Here's a post of mine from the thread mentioned earlier that touched on Trump money laundering.

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Originally Posted by Lance Turbo View Post
More on money laundering...

Maybe Trump is innocent, but there sure does appear to be an awful lot of money laundering going on in buildings with Trump's name on them.

Trump’s Russian Laundromat

It's a long article and worth a read. Here's a sample paragraph...

Quote:
But even without an investigation by Congress or a special prosecutor, there is much we already know about the president’s debt to Russia. A review of the public record reveals a clear and disturbing pattern: Trump owes much of his business success, and by extension his presidency, to a flow of highly suspicious money from Russia. Over the past three decades, at least 13 people with known or alleged links to Russian mobsters or oligarchs have owned, lived in, and even run criminal activities out of Trump Tower and other Trump properties. Many used his apartments and casinos to launder untold millions in dirty money. Some ran a worldwide high-stakes gambling ring out of Trump Tower—in a unit directly below one owned by Trump. Others provided Trump with lucrative branding deals that required no investment on his part. Taken together, the flow of money from Russia provided Trump with a crucial infusion of financing that helped rescue his empire from ruin, burnish his image, and launch his career in television and politics. “They saved his bacon,” says Kenneth McCallion, a former assistant U.S. attorney in the Reagan administration who investigated ties between organized crime and Trump’s developments in the 1980s.
Besides that article there's also this guy who may know what he's talking about. "You realize where this is going. This is all about money laundering. Mueller chose [senior prosecutor Andrew] Weissmann first and he is a money-laundering guy. Their path to f***ing Trump goes right through Paul Manafort, Don Jr., and Jared Kushner. . . . It's as plain as a hair on your face," Wolff quotes Bannon saying.
  #99  
Old 10-09-2019, 11:09 AM
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That's just one article. A quick search also brings up Newsweek and the Washington Post.
From the Washington Post link:

Quote:
I’m no fan of Putin’s, but he was right about one thing: Swaths of American society are corrupt. If we want to protect our most precious institutions, we should examine new regulations in a wide range of sectors. The House Intelligence Committee, the House Oversight Committee and the House Judiciary Committee have geared up for hearings and investigations. They had better move fast. We have a president who has a long, tangled history with figures connected to Russian organized crime — all of it, apparently, perfectly legal.
If what Unger says in his article is true, the saddest part about the whole thing is that it's perfectly legal.
  #100  
Old 10-09-2019, 11:10 AM
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Concur.
Got it.
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