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  #51  
Old 12-24-2019, 04:00 PM
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Just because we don't have a sure cure for cancer, that doesn't make mud and leeches an improvement.
  #52  
Old 12-24-2019, 04:55 PM
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Dehumanizing people isn’t the answer. Having an actual solution to their problem that doesn’t fit the “fuck em” narrative that they are being told your side has just pushes them away. This is how Trump is re-elected as far as I can tell.
I'm not dehumanizing them at all. I'm just refusing to assign intelligence to people that are given an actual solution to their problems and elect Trump instead.
  #53  
Old 12-24-2019, 06:13 PM
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Would you rather win elections and make policy by working with our countrymen, or lose elections and stamp you feet about how stupid everyone else is? I would prefer to win elections.
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  #54  
Old 12-24-2019, 08:51 PM
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Stamp my feet?

The discussion started with "ACA didn't work for the people that actively sabotaged it, so Democrats focusing on healthcare is bad."

Would you rather win elections and help Americans, or blow billions on SPACE FORCE and A WALL and have more and more of your minority citizens fearful for their lives and safety due to increased hate crimes because someone said you're not the brightest bulb in the box?
  #55  
Old 12-24-2019, 09:20 PM
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Would you rather win elections and make policy by working with our countrymen, or lose elections and stamp you feet about how stupid everyone else is? I would prefer to win elections.
This is a nonsequitur.

Did you read that ad? "They are coming for you". This isn't "they've neglected you", "they've failed to bring you solutions". This is a 100% abject simpleminded appeal to fear.

If you want to ask how to reach the theorized economic-issue Trump voter, that's a different and legit question, but that's not what this ad about. Maybe you should start a separate thread on that.

If you want to ask how to reach voters who are going to respond to the message "they're coming to get you" ad, those people are beyond reach. Their self-described defining characteristic is that they're out of reach.

These 2 groups of people may overlap in some ways, but don't conflate these different angles.
  #56  
Old 12-24-2019, 09:25 PM
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So you are not really committed to winning elections? Policy will be made by those who have that drive.
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  #57  
Old 12-24-2019, 09:34 PM
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So you are not really committed to winning elections? Policy will be made by those who have that drive.
What is the policy response to "they are coming for you?"
  #58  
Old 12-24-2019, 09:37 PM
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Reaching out to those who feel threatened by progressive values by giving them some of the things they really want and not taking all the things we really want.


Excuse me, I have to go buy Christmas donuts for everyone at the office.
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  #59  
Old 12-24-2019, 10:03 PM
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Some of my countrymen, it appears, are eager to put brown children in cages and deny them decent medical care. So, what I need to do, then, is find some reasonable compromise between my humanity and their utter lack of it?
  #60  
Old 12-24-2019, 10:35 PM
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This is an excellent point. Some people are os wrong that we would rather lose than gain their votes.
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  #61  
Old 12-24-2019, 11:53 PM
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Reaching out to those who feel threatened by progressive values by giving them some of the things they really want and not taking all the things we really want.
You mean like moderate health care reform such as the ACA?
  #62  
Old 12-25-2019, 12:29 AM
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This is an excellent point. Some people are os wrong that we would rather lose than gain their votes.
Do you think there is no such line as "too wrong" to compromise? Say a segment of voters outright believed that unicorns secretly controlled the economy... should we craft some unicorn-based policies as a compromise, or just recognize that's bullshit and try to get on without them?

There's just 1 binary choice here, either you acknowledge that some beliefs are too wrong to entertain, or not.

If you argue that you can't answer the hypothetical because it's too wrong to take seriously, this is an admission that the same is true in real life, some beliefs are too wrong to consider in any case.

Which one is it?
  #63  
Old 12-25-2019, 08:16 AM
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I do not worry if people are wrong. I am sure I am wrong about many things. I am concerned with advancing my political agenda. To do that I am happy to break bread with people much different from me. I am happy to make alliances with those who only agree with me on a few tings. I am willing to give up less-important things to gain more-important things.
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  #64  
Old 12-25-2019, 08:57 AM
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Would you rather win elections and make policy by working with our countrymen, or lose elections and stamp you feet about how stupid everyone else is? I would prefer to win elections.
I doubt very seriously that any of us really have much control over how others vote. If someone decides to switch his vote because I think Trump voters are stupid, I can live with that because that voter was never too committed to voting for a progressive anyway. To a certain extent, people do vote to impose their beliefs and attitudes on the rest of the country - not everyone does so thinking of themselves as an authoritarian, but there's a miniature authoritarian in all of us; it's just that in a true democracy, power is shared.

I am not going to blame myself for someone's ignorance. I am going to be angry at those who repeatedly refuse to get off their asses and educate themselves, particularly when getting the right information is as easy as doing some Googling. I don't give a damn how they feel about it. I can understand anxieties that people have of living in an increasingly complex society, but when people become suckers for culture wars instead of having a thirst for understanding the world around them...that's on them.

'We' will probably lose more elections in the future because democracy is hard work and too many people - even a lot of progressives, as I've pointed out before - take too many of our institutions for granted. Worse, our collective ignorance will lead to worse leadership, with worse outcomes, and further deepening the frustration that we feel, and in turn fueling their desperation for anyone who offers a simple solution. Dictator time.
  #65  
Old 12-25-2019, 09:20 AM
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I intend to work to preserve our system. Again, it saddens me when people give up.
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  #66  
Old 12-25-2019, 09:31 AM
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I intend to work to preserve our system. Again, it saddens me when people give up.
Our system shouldn't be preserved; it needs to be modified so that it is promotes greater equality. Historically, however, our political system has promoted capitalist-based inequality and exploitation, and in particular, exploitation of people of color. That system doesn't need to be preserved; it warrants major change. The problem is, it's hard to change the system - any system - without breaking it completely. It's even harder when major substantive changes require near consensus across 50 states that are culturally quite different from each other. My conclusion is that the country will eventually collapse as a result of conflict if this isn't self-corrected. It nearly happened in the 1860s. We were fortunate enough that the morally correct side won. But geography made it easier for that conflict to be resolved and for reconciliation to occur. That won't be so easy if there's another conflict in the future.
  #67  
Old 12-25-2019, 10:57 AM
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I am willing to give up less-important things to gain more-important things.
Yes, clearly you are the only person on earth willing to make priority decisions and the rest of us are crazed absolutists.

Or perhaps it's really easy to talk about trading away priorities in the abstract, without talking specifics. Perhaps it's really easy to talk about trading away priorities that are important to other people. Perhaps that's why you're very careful to avoid specifics that might demonstrate your sincerity or lack thereof.
  #68  
Old 12-25-2019, 11:31 AM
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I think that if you are sure that your way is the best, a little PR shouldn’t be that hard to pull off.
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  #69  
Old 12-26-2019, 04:57 PM
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Or perhaps it's really easy to talk about trading away priorities in the abstract, without talking specifics. Perhaps it's really easy to talk about trading away priorities that are important to other people. Perhaps that's why you're very careful to avoid specifics that might demonstrate your sincerity or lack thereof.

No. Politics and compromise are endless and very, very hard to do. It is easier to decide you are too pure to dirty yourself with the cynical horse-trading required by self-government. Being absolute is much easier, but pretty well useless in the real world.
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Last edited by Paul in Qatar; 12-26-2019 at 04:59 PM.
  #70  
Old 12-26-2019, 05:06 PM
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New York Post just ran an article on what the OP is talking about:

https://nypost.com/2019/12/21/donald...rce=reddit.com
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With a likeness to the Uncle Sam “I want you” poster, the disrupter-in-chief reaffirms in 14 words
14 words? Heh, where have I heard that before?
  #71  
Old 12-26-2019, 09:05 PM
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Thank you for the link. I am afraid I agree. This is a powerful message that will really resonate with supporters of the President.
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  #72  
Old 12-26-2019, 09:23 PM
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It doesn't take a lot to resonate with supporters of Trump. You could make Trump supporters vibrate like tuning forks by blowing a kazoo.
  #73  
Old 12-26-2019, 09:38 PM
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It doesn't take a lot to resonate with supporters of Trump. You could make Trump supporters vibrate like tuning forks by blowing a kazoo.

Cool. So find us a slogan that will help the Good Guys win over these folks. Thanks.
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  #74  
Old 12-27-2019, 12:58 AM
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Heck,with sensible and reasonable people like you on our side, what's have we got to worry about?
  #75  
Old 12-27-2019, 01:10 AM
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I think some people in this thread are talking at cross purposes, because things like thoughts on the meme, opinions of trump supporters, and discussion of election strategy are all getting conflated.
So let's try to separate them.

IMO Trump is a dreadful person and president, and if he gets as far as the elections, I want him to lose decisively. And I would like that to happen by many former Trump supporters realizing that he does not have their best interests in mind (and lacks the intellect to understand social problems anyway).
I am not saying this as a die-hard Dem -- I would love for someone smart, that embraces reality, to primary Trump, and then have a genuine debate next Nov.

However, I am not going to lie to try to win an election: I am not going to pretend that all the concerns that trump supporters have necessarily make sense. Or that all their views about what is happening to the country, and what happened under Obama, are grounded in reality.
And I sure as hell am not going to move the Overton window over -- shift my views over to the right to appear "moderate" compared to the modern GOP.

But yeah it's best to avoid insulting Trump supporters, just as it's best not to insult people in general. When I debate with trump supporters I try to emphasize critical thinking and explain specifically why each belief does not pass scrutiny. But honestly, it's tough. The psychology of trump supporters would be a good thread in itself.

Last edited by Mijin; 12-27-2019 at 01:12 AM.
  #76  
Old 12-27-2019, 01:28 AM
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... And I would like that to happen by many former Trump supporters realizing that he does not have their best interests in mind (and lacks the intellect to understand social problems anyway).
I am so pleased to find someone who I agree with here.

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I am not going to pretend that all the concerns that trump supporters have necessarily make sense. Or that all their views about what is happening to the country, and what happened under Obama, are grounded in reality.
And I sure as hell am not going to move the Overton window over -- shift my views over to the right to appear "moderate" compared to the modern GOP.

Further, it is good that someone else here realizes that supporters of the President do have concerns we can and should consider. Still, the idea of not insulting people seems quite radical hereabouts.
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  #77  
Old 12-27-2019, 11:38 AM
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PR is everything. I am hoping when the primaries are over there is a distinct message that can counteract the “they are coming for you” messaging. Like “they already fucked you, here is how”. Populist messaging works for small minds. It would seem to me that there is a populist message on both sides perhaps?
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  #78  
Old 12-27-2019, 12:00 PM
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They already fucked you!
Warren 2020

Looks good on a bumper sticker.
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