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Old 07-11-2016, 07:05 AM
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Ignorant Bigots Raise Racist Flag Yet Again


So, who didn't see this coming? Seriously, what is it with the love affair with those who pretend the south was hunky dory and that damn rag?
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Old 07-11-2016, 07:11 AM
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Private group of assholes, thankfully -- not the state or local government. Private groups of assholes are free to demonstrate. A shame, but not surprising.
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Old 07-11-2016, 07:43 AM
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When will the Civil War finally be over?
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Old 07-11-2016, 08:00 AM
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Private group of assholes, thankfully -- not the state or local government. Private groups of assholes are free to demonstrate. A shame, but not surprising.
I think displaying the Confederate battle flag is usually a not-even-trying-to-be-subtle act of rebellion. It shouldn't be a "free speech" issue, just like conspiracy or espionage isn't "free speech."
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Old 07-11-2016, 08:08 AM
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When will the Civil War finally be over?
When The North surrenders!
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Old 07-11-2016, 08:28 AM
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I think displaying the Confederate battle flag is usually a not-even-trying-to-be-subtle act of rebellion. It shouldn't be a "free speech" issue, just like conspiracy or espionage isn't "free speech."
Strongly disagree. I think it would be an incredibly bad idea (and unconstitutional and fundamentally unAmerican) to arrest people for flying a certain flag, no matter the flag.

Very much a free speech issue.
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Old 07-11-2016, 08:29 AM
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I think displaying the Confederate battle flag is usually a not-even-trying-to-be-subtle act of rebellion. It shouldn't be a "free speech" issue, just like conspiracy or espionage isn't "free speech."
The confederate flag is disgusting, but I tend to see an individual's flying of the flag as a free speech right.

One of the advantages of free speech is that it allows ignorant and racist individuals to proclaim their ignorance and racism to the world. When I see the confederate flag, I immediately know I do not want to associate myself with the displayer of that flag in any way. It's like an advertisement for "stupid."
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Old 07-11-2016, 09:03 AM
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Nothing says: "Here's to a hopeful future" like inbreds raising a confederate battle flag!

Last edited by bobot; 07-11-2016 at 09:04 AM. Reason: more civil rhetoric
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Old 07-11-2016, 09:34 AM
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Strongly disagree. I think it would be an incredibly bad idea (and unconstitutional and fundamentally unAmerican) to arrest people for flying a certain flag, no matter the flag.

Very much a free speech issue.
It's on government property. That's the stupid part here. Wear whatever belt buckle you like. Sport your classy 'stars-n'-bars' wife beater if it makes you happy. Fly massive flags from multiple mounts on your dually with the Back Off! Yosemite Sam mud flaps and trailer hitch testicles.

Keep the fucking rebel flag off of government flag poles.

Last edited by Sitnam; 07-11-2016 at 09:34 AM.
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Old 07-11-2016, 09:44 AM
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It's on government property. That's the stupid part here.
...
Keep the fucking rebel flag off of government flag poles.
This was not a government flag pole. It was a privately-owned, temporary pole raised as part of a legal demonstration on public property. In terms of speech-regulation, it is equivalent to, for example, the large wooden signs erected on the National Mall by any number of different interest groups over the years.

You are correct that the rebel flag does not belong on government flagpoles. But not because of its specific content, whatever someone might feel that to be. It would be equally inappropriate to fly a "POW/MIA" flag, or a rainbow, or a Jolly Roger.
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Old 07-11-2016, 10:01 AM
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I think displaying the Confederate battle flag is usually a not-even-trying-to-be-subtle act of rebellion. It shouldn't be a "free speech" issue, just like conspiracy or espionage isn't "free speech."
Nothing subtle at all, indeed. This was raised by people calling themselves a Secessionist Party.
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Old 07-11-2016, 10:13 AM
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Hell, yeah!!!
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Old 07-11-2016, 11:58 AM
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"South Carolina Secessionist Party"? That would be a fine idea. Take out the US Military Bases and the entire economy would be based on selling Beef Jerky on the roadside...
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Old 07-11-2016, 12:20 PM
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I think speaking of rebellion is perfectly fine, and I do so fairly frequently. That's a thing different from "materially participating" in rebellion, which is rightfully outlawed. Better to let the morons speak their shit than it would be to repress them underground. If we don't let the fools speak their outrage, then they will express themselves violently.
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Old 07-11-2016, 12:26 PM
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"South Carolina Secessionist Party"? That would be a fine idea. Take out the US Military Bases and the entire economy would be based on selling Beef Jerky on the roadside...
Wait, are you telling me that the money South of the Border pulls in isn't enough?
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Old 07-11-2016, 12:37 PM
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When will the Civil War finally be over?

Texas is talking about succeeding again.
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Old 07-11-2016, 12:47 PM
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"South Carolina Secessionist Party"? That would be a fine idea. Take out the US Military Bases and the entire economy would be based on selling Beef Jerky on the roadside...

Boiled Peanuts. Can't ignore the economic impact of the Boiled Peanut Roadside Vendors.
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Old 07-11-2016, 12:48 PM
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Texas is talking about succeeding again.
If Texas wants to be taken seriously, they should first learn to spell the damn word.

Last edited by QuickSilver; 07-11-2016 at 12:49 PM.
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Old 07-11-2016, 12:50 PM
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Texas is talking about succeeding again.
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If Texas wants to be taken seriously, they should first learn to spell the damn word.
I won't complain if they succeed at seceding.
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Old 07-11-2016, 12:51 PM
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When will the Civil War finally be over?
When The North surrenders!
Given that in certain circles it's still known as the "War of Northern Aggression," John Mace's answer would seem to be appropriate for these worthies.

Re: protest, free speech, etc, about the only line I remember from the movie The Quiet Man is courtesy of Barry Fitzgerald: "I think I'll go on down to the pub and talk a little treason." Perfectly encompasses the mid-20th century Irish attitude toward authority in general, and seems somehow apropos here.
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Old 07-11-2016, 12:57 PM
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Strongly disagree. I think it would be an incredibly bad idea (and unconstitutional and fundamentally unAmerican) to arrest people for flying a certain flag, no matter the flag.

Very much a free speech issue.
This is the flag of an enemy nation. Why isn't it a form of treason to fly the flag of an enemy nation? Is it because we're no longer at war with them, or the nation doesn't exist anymore? Personally, I think there's a difference between flying the flag of a nation we were once at war with, as an act of open rebellion, and my Swedish roommate having a little Swedish flag in the pencil holder on her desk, or me having a shirt with the Slovak flag on it that my mother bought because she was in Slovakia when Czechoslovakia divided into two republics. (My grandparents are from Slovakia, and we still go occasionally to visit relatives there.)
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Old 07-11-2016, 01:16 PM
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This is the flag of an enemy nation. Why isn't it a form of treason to fly the flag of an enemy nation? Is it because we're no longer at war with them, or the nation doesn't exist anymore? Personally, I think there's a difference between flying the flag of a nation we were once at war with, as an act of open rebellion, and my Swedish roommate having a little Swedish flag in the pencil holder on her desk, or me having a shirt with the Slovak flag on it that my mother bought because she was in Slovakia when Czechoslovakia divided into two republics. (My grandparents are from Slovakia, and we still go occasionally to visit relatives there.)
Why would flying another flag -- be treason? How does it harm the interests or security of the US?

A bit surprised that more than 1 American Doper is okay with the idea of jailing people because they fly a piece of cloth on the end of a pole.
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Old 07-11-2016, 01:19 PM
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This was not a government flag pole. It was a privately-owned, temporary pole raised as part of a legal demonstration on public property. In terms of speech-regulation, it is equivalent to, for example, the large wooden signs erected on the National Mall by any number of different interest groups over the years.

You are correct that the rebel flag does not belong on government flagpoles. But not because of its specific content, whatever someone might feel that to be. It would be equally inappropriate to fly a "POW/MIA" flag, or a rainbow, or a Jolly Roger.
Well, see I don't know that I agree with part I bolded up above. The battle flag was appropriated and popularized by the KKK and so it does have some meaning beyond being just a flag of the losing side in the Civil War.

I'm guessing a privately-owned, temporary cross raised as part of a legal demonstration on public property would be objectionable once it was doused with gasoline and lit it on fire. Same thing with this in my mind.
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Old 07-11-2016, 01:31 PM
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This is the flag of an enemy nation. Why isn't it a form of treason to fly the flag of an enemy nation? Is it because we're no longer at war with them, or the nation doesn't exist anymore? Personally, I think there's a difference between flying the flag of a nation we were once at war with, as an act of open rebellion, and my Swedish roommate having a little Swedish flag in the pencil holder on her desk, or me having a shirt with the Slovak flag on it that my mother bought because she was in Slovakia when Czechoslovakia divided into two republics. (My grandparents are from Slovakia, and we still go occasionally to visit relatives there.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Constitution of the United States
Article III
Section 3.

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.
Note that "aid and comfort" isn't any old thing that gives America's enemies a warm fuzzy. It means material aid, not just mouthing off on twitter.
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Old 07-11-2016, 01:35 PM
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Well, see I don't know that I agree with part I bolded up above. The battle flag was appropriated and popularized by the KKK and so it does have some meaning beyond being just a flag of the losing side in the Civil War.

I'm guessing a privately-owned, temporary cross raised as part of a legal demonstration on public property would be objectionable once it was doused with gasoline and lit it on fire. Same thing with this in my mind.
Objectionable, sure, but objectionable doesn't mean illegal, necessarily. Ccross burning has gone in front of the supreme court before, and the SC ruled that cross burning can be outlawed if intent to intimidate is demonstrated, but not if such intent to intimidate is not proven.
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Old 07-11-2016, 01:47 PM
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Well, see I don't know that I agree with part I bolded up above. The battle flag was appropriated and popularized by the KKK and so it does have some meaning beyond being just a flag of the losing side in the Civil War.
I'm saying it doesn't matter what the meaning is.

You do realize that in America it is legal to wear and display actual KKK emblems in otherwise legal demonstrations? Also, you don't want to assign too much weight to the appropriation of a symbol by the Klan (notice how the police are here protecting the Klan's expression).

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I'm guessing a privately-owned, temporary cross raised as part of a legal demonstration on public property would be objectionable once it was doused with gasoline and lit it on fire. Same thing with this in my mind.
There might well be an issue with the fire part, depending on local ordinances and the terms of the demonstration's permit. The meaning of the symbol should not be relevant.
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Old 07-11-2016, 01:57 PM
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Iíll ask this question here rather than start a thread on it. I live in southern, rural, Appalachian Ohio. I see trucks featuring the image of the Confederate flag almost daily, and I drive by some houses out in the sticks that fly that flag. For some reason these sightings surprise me much more in Ohio than they would further south.

What do you think these hillbillies are trying to convey by these displays?
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Old 07-11-2016, 02:07 PM
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Iíll ask this question here rather than start a thread on it. I live in southern, rural, Appalachian Ohio. I see trucks featuring the image of the Confederate flag almost daily, and I drive by some houses out in the sticks that fly that flag. For some reason these sightings surprise me much more in Ohio than they would further south.

What do you think these hillbillies are trying to convey by these displays?
"We hate black people. We are also too stupid to be allowed to breed."
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Old 07-11-2016, 02:07 PM
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This is the flag of an enemy nation. Why isn't it a form of treason to fly the flag of an enemy nation? Is it because we're no longer at war with them, or the nation doesn't exist anymore? Personally, I think there's a difference between flying the flag of a nation we were once at war with, as an act of open rebellion, and my Swedish roommate having a little Swedish flag in the pencil holder on her desk, or me having a shirt with the Slovak flag on it that my mother bought because she was in Slovakia when Czechoslovakia divided into two republics. (My grandparents are from Slovakia, and we still go occasionally to visit relatives there.)
The USA has been at war with Great Britain, Mexico, Germany, Italy, and Spain in its history, the last 3 more recently than the Civil War. Should flying any of those flags be illegal?
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Old 07-11-2016, 02:13 PM
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Iíll ask this question here rather than start a thread on it. I live in southern, rural, Appalachian Ohio. I see trucks featuring the image of the Confederate flag almost daily, and I drive by some houses out in the sticks that fly that flag. For some reason these sightings surprise me much more in Ohio than they would further south.

What do you think these hillbillies are trying to convey by these displays?
I've seen rebel flags within 50 miles of the Canadian border.

Without additional information I don't think it can be pinned down. There are three possible (independent) messages that come immediately to my mind as most likely, but only one of those is necessarily racist. The others are, approximately, "I like the South," and "I'm a rebel/badass/rugged individualist." The latter is equivalent to the (likely) modern message of a Gadsden flag or sticker.
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Old 07-11-2016, 02:18 PM
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This is the flag of an enemy nation. Why isn't it a form of treason to fly the flag of an enemy nation? Is it because we're no longer at war with them, or the nation doesn't exist anymore? Personally, I think there's a difference between flying the flag of a nation we were once at war with, as an act of open rebellion, and my Swedish roommate having a little Swedish flag in the pencil holder on her desk, or me having a shirt with the Slovak flag on it that my mother bought because she was in Slovakia when Czechoslovakia divided into two republics. (My grandparents are from Slovakia, and we still go occasionally to visit relatives there.)
Was the CSA ever considered an enemy nation, though? Didn't the government of the US consider the rebellious states to still be part of the Union and not a separate country?
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Old 07-11-2016, 02:45 PM
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...me having a shirt with the Slovak flag on it that my mother bought because she was in Slovakia when Czechoslovakia divided into two republics. (My grandparents are from Slovakia, and we still go occasionally to visit relatives there.)
Yeah? Well I'm half-Czech! And we were HUMILIATED to be associated with you people for all those years! You know why? Because your dumplings SUCK. And your beer SUCKS.

Thank you for this moment of gratuitous Slovak hate, thumbing my nose from Prague where the beer and dumplings are DELICIOUS. Wave that flag; wave it wide and high -- summertime's done, come and gone my oh my
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Old 07-11-2016, 04:03 PM
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It says the group raising the flag was re-enactors. Looking at them, they are clearly dressed in period uniforms. But the sponsoring group is labeled "confederate flag supporting". Is the re-enactment just a cover? I have been to civil war battle reenactments and was never offended by the confederate flags flying in the camps and on the battlefields there.
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Old 07-11-2016, 04:29 PM
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"South Carolina Secessionist Party"? That would be a fine idea. Take out the US Military Bases and the entire economy would be based on selling Beef Jerky on the roadside...
Well, there could also be speed traps to nab some bux from families driving down to Disney World...
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Old 07-11-2016, 04:39 PM
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It says the group raising the flag was re-enactors. Looking at them, they are clearly dressed in period uniforms. But the sponsoring group is labeled "confederate flag supporting". Is the re-enactment just a cover?
Maybe. According to the article:
Quote:
The rally was organized by the South Carolina Secessionist Party, and supporters held their own flags. Some dressed as a Confederate Memorial Honor Guard. They saluted as the flag rose up the pole, and the crowd applauded and cheered, with some shouting ďLeave it there!Ē
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Old 07-11-2016, 06:33 PM
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I can legally fly a swastika if I wish too, as long as I'm on my own property. Like it or not, the same should be said for a rebel flag. Speech is not just for popular ideas. Yes, the CSA were a bunch of traitors. Guess what -- expressing support for them isn't treason (especially since they're long gone).

These people aren't even advocating to rebel against the government. They're just being a bunch of assholes. They're not using government property to do so -- they brought their own flag pole and their own flag. It's not illegal to be a douchebag.

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This was not a government flag pole. It was a privately-owned, temporary pole raised as part of a legal demonstration on public property. In terms of speech-regulation, it is equivalent to, for example, the large wooden signs erected on the National Mall by any number of different interest groups over the years.

You are correct that the rebel flag does not belong on government flagpoles. But not because of its specific content, whatever someone might feel that to be. It would be equally inappropriate to fly a "POW/MIA" flag, or a rainbow, or a Jolly Roger.
A Jolly Roger? WTF would be wrong with that?
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Old 07-11-2016, 06:53 PM
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A Jolly Roger? WTF would be wrong with that?
It is, after all, the official flag of the Republican Party.
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Old 07-11-2016, 07:00 PM
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Yeah, but in their case, it represents the Jolly Good Rogering.
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Old 07-11-2016, 07:25 PM
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Seriously, wouldn't this flag be more appropriate/accurate?
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Old 07-11-2016, 07:56 PM
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I like it when I'm on a road trip, and I come up on a Good Ol' Boy in a rusty pickup with the Not-Quite-The-Actual Confederate Flag. It's like a label saying "I'm not a genius, and might be drunk, and I'm fer sure angry as hell, so you might want to keep your distance!"

And so I do. Hit the far lane and get about a mile ahead just to be safe.



ETA: Then I put on NPR and swig some Vernor's with my pretzels... and celebrate my Union heritage.

Last edited by digs; 07-11-2016 at 08:01 PM.
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Old 07-11-2016, 07:58 PM
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A Jolly Roger? WTF would be wrong with that?
Clear lack of respect for our Somali brethren.
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Old 07-11-2016, 08:35 PM
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. . . A Jolly Roger? WTF would be wrong with that?
According to one reference I found, by case law (international law) a skull-and-crossbones flag indicates an intention to commit piracy, and can be met with force by government ships ... on the open seas. Within U.S. waters, the Coast Guard can make a minor fuss over it, but generally it's a free speech issue. Beyond the territoriality limits, someone could take it sufficiently amiss to open fire on you.

(My uncle flew a Jolly Roger in international waters, and was advised by a U.S. Navy officer that it was a bad idea, and that he should not do it. No cite available.)

Here's a link to a discussion board taking on the matter.

Last edited by Trinopus; 07-11-2016 at 08:36 PM.
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Old 07-11-2016, 09:09 PM
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According to one reference I found, by case law (international law) a skull-and-crossbones flag indicates an intention to commit piracy, and can be met with force by government ships ... on the open seas. Within U.S. waters, the Coast Guard can make a minor fuss over it, but generally it's a free speech issue. Beyond the territoriality limits, someone could take it sufficiently amiss to open fire on you.

(My uncle flew a Jolly Roger in international waters, and was advised by a U.S. Navy officer that it was a bad idea, and that he should not do it. No cite available.)

Here's a link to a discussion board taking on the matter.
Wait. If you have a reference to case law, why not post a link to the actual case law, instead of a link to a hobbyist website, where the last post in the thread you quoted was more than 10 years old?
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Old 07-11-2016, 09:26 PM
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The USA has been at war with Great Britain, Mexico, Germany, Italy, and Spain in its history, the last 3 more recently than the Civil War. Should flying any of those flags be illegal?
Nope. But the Confederate battle flag today represents no one except those adhering to enemies of the United States, deservedly dead and in obloquy, true, but that isn't in the language. Every other flag you name may be allied with or opposed to the U.S. for any reason: only the flag of white-supremacy treason is unalterably opposed to the national reason for our existence as a free country
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Old 07-11-2016, 09:30 PM
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A Jolly Roger? WTF would be wrong with that?
It's not the flag of the government the office represents.
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Old 07-11-2016, 09:35 PM
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Originally Posted by The King of Soup View Post
Nope. But the Confederate battle flag today represents no one except those adhering to enemies of the United States, deservedly dead and in obloquy, true, but that isn't in the language. Every other flag you name may be allied with or opposed to the U.S. for any reason: only the flag of white-supremacy treason is unalterably opposed to the national reason for our existence as a free country
Please. Bullshit from those who want to pretend their hands aren't bloody. This country was built on slavery.

Last edited by Peremensoe; 07-11-2016 at 09:36 PM.
  #47  
Old 07-11-2016, 10:07 PM
Tim@T-Bonham.net is online now
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Originally Posted by John Mace View Post
When The North surrenders!
OK, OK -- we surrender!

Let the Confederate states go away*. It'd be the best move for our economy in the past 75 years. Even if we have to build a wall across the Mason-Dixon line to keep refugees from that poverty-stricken hellhole from wetbacking into the USA.

* And they can take the cow states with them!
  #48  
Old 07-11-2016, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Guinastasia View Post
I can legally fly a swastika if I wish too, as long as I'm on my own property.
Won't your parents get angry?
  #49  
Old 07-11-2016, 10:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Peremensoe View Post
It's not the flag of the government the office represents.
Well then I suppose most of Pittsburgh is gonna be considered traitors. (My neighbor's got a huge one hanging next to his door)

Last edited by Guinastasia; 07-11-2016 at 10:27 PM.
  #50  
Old 07-11-2016, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
Objectionable, sure, but objectionable doesn't mean illegal, necessarily. Ccross burning has gone in front of the supreme court before, and the SC ruled that cross burning can be outlawed if intent to intimidate is demonstrated, but not if such intent to intimidate is not proven.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peremensoe View Post
I'm saying it doesn't matter what the meaning is ***SNIP***
I suppose I was less than clear but I didn't suggest flying the Stars & Bars should be illegal. My problem was the word "equivalent". I see it as being something used today primarily to intimidate and be inflammatory, particularly since the decision to remove it from a variety of public places over the last year.

You wanna fly it on your property? I could care less. On public property my tax dollars support? I'm going to object.

Last edited by Kolak of Twilo; 07-11-2016 at 10:28 PM.
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