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  #51  
Old 07-11-2016, 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by D'Anconia View Post
Wait. If you have a reference to case law, why not post a link to the actual case law, instead of a link to a hobbyist website, where the last post in the thread you quoted was more than 10 years old?
That was the reference, you doofus.

ETA: Oh, wait, it's D'Anconia. You twisted sick shit-faced gob of buzzard puke, you lying sack of dung, you toad-felching pustule, you imbecile.

Last edited by Trinopus; 07-11-2016 at 10:29 PM.
  #52  
Old 07-11-2016, 10:32 PM
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Please. Bullshit from those who want to pretend their hands aren't bloody. This country was built on slavery.
No. It's bullshit from those who no longer want to enshrine or celebrate the actions of a horrible past generation.

'This country was built on slavery' - Agreed. Seems appropriate the full extent of that fact is taught in schools then. How about more than just during February.
  #53  
Old 07-11-2016, 10:38 PM
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Well then I suppose most of Pittsburgh is gonna be considered traitors. (My neighbor's got a huge one hanging next to his door)
No, that's fine. As I've been saying all along, people can wave whatever flags they like. Free speech. Actual public institutions, on the other hand, should display only the symbols they actually embody. United States federal buildings should fly the United States flag, period. State buildings should fly the correct national and state flags, and no other. Take the job seriously.
  #54  
Old 07-11-2016, 10:40 PM
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You do realize that in America it is legal to wear and display actual KKK emblems in otherwise legal demonstrations?
And I read plenty of Europeans and Americans who are stunned (the former, mostly) and confounded by this.

I do sometimes wonder how Europeans have such trust in their government that they reject the "slippery slope" idea, and why this particular "slippery slope" isn't more derided (ie more like the usual invocation of the fallacy) in average discussion.

ETA: I also know that some consider the KKK to be an actual terrorist group. Who determines that kind of status for the sake of exceptions to laws?

Last edited by Leaper; 07-11-2016 at 10:41 PM.
  #55  
Old 07-11-2016, 10:46 PM
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No, that's fine. As I've been saying all along, people can wave whatever flags they like. Free speech. Actual public institutions, on the other hand, should display only the symbols they actually embody. United States federal buildings should fly the United States flag, period. State buildings should fly the correct national and state flags, and no other. Take the job seriously.
Oh, during baseball season, you'll see it on government property too. We take our civic pride VERY seriously.
  #56  
Old 07-11-2016, 10:59 PM
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That was the reference, you doofus.
I realize that cites are not required in the BBQ Pit, but what you posted was in no way, shape, or form a "reference".

Do you have an actual cite that flying the Jolly Roger is against international law?
  #57  
Old 07-11-2016, 11:36 PM
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Objectionable, sure, but objectionable doesn't mean illegal, necessarily. Ccross burning has gone in front of the supreme court before, and the SC ruled that cross burning can be outlawed if intent to intimidate is demonstrated, but not if such intent to intimidate is not proven.
Burning a cross in another person's yard, which the KKK did during the 50s, 60s and 70s, was also surely a violation of trespassing laws.
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The USA has been at war with Great Britain, Mexico, Germany, Italy, and Spain in its history, the last 3 more recently than the Civil War. Should flying any of those flags be illegal?
Well, the flag Germany flew when we were at war with them is no longer the flag of the nation, and FWIW, I think it's the case that you can't actually fly the swastika flag in Germany. We have officially reconciled with the UK, and have allied with them during several wars, and they have embassies and consulates here.

I have an Israeli flag that I put in my window in Israeli Independence day, and Holocaust Remembrance Day, but I also put up a US flag on US holidays. My husband earned one in Iraq, so we might as well use it. On Holocaust Remembrance Day, we hang both flags, because the US was one of the countries that liberated the camps, and we hang it higher than the Israeli flag. (Yes, I know Israeli was not a country yet, but the flag looks like a tallit with a Magen David, so it's a good symbol of the Jewish people.)

Anyway, I get flying other flags, but I can't believe people who fly the Stars & Bars aren't, on some level, hoping to offend.
  #58  
Old 07-11-2016, 11:52 PM
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...Anyway, I get flying other flags, but I can't believe people who fly the Stars & Bars aren't, on some level, hoping to offend.
Or at the very least, intimidate anyone who may have been a bit "uppity" of late.
  #59  
Old 07-11-2016, 11:52 PM
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And I read plenty of Europeans and Americans who are stunned (the former, mostly) and confounded by this.

I do sometimes wonder how Europeans have such trust in their government that they reject the "slippery slope" idea, and why this particular "slippery slope" isn't more derided (ie more like the usual invocation of the fallacy) in average discussion.

ETA: I also know that some consider the KKK to be an actual terrorist group. Who determines that kind of status for the sake of exceptions to laws?
What part of free speech is confounding?
  #60  
Old 07-12-2016, 12:04 AM
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Anyway, I get flying other flags, but I can't believe people who fly the Stars & Bars aren't, on some level, hoping to offend.
Just spent the weekend with a friend from 'Dahn Sah'th'. Based on his attitudes on everything from Uppity Wimmens to The Gummint, I know what he'd say.

He'd say "Heee-yah, you bet we're offending! And the more you PC Yankees getcher britches in a twist, the more we sit on back with our coon dogs and our flag and just smahhhhhhle..."
  #61  
Old 07-12-2016, 01:02 AM
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. . . Do you have an actual cite that flying the Jolly Roger is against international law?
Well, here's another discussion board, where a guy says his ship was boarded by the Coast Guard for flying that flag. I also mentioned the Navy Officer who told my uncle to pull down the flag. There was a third reference to this in my previous link.

So all I've got is indirect testimony from three people who have been told by military officers that it is illegal.
  #62  
Old 07-12-2016, 01:14 AM
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Well, here's another discussion board, where a guy says his ship was boarded by the Coast Guard for flying that flag. I also mentioned the Navy Officer who told my uncle to pull down the flag. There was a third reference to this in my previous link.

So all I've got is indirect testimony from three people who have been told by military officers that it is illegal.
That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard of. If they asked me that, I'd tell them to show me the specific law.
  #63  
Old 07-12-2016, 03:41 AM
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That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard of. If they asked me that, I'd tell them to show me the specific law.
I seem to remember the Navy ship I was on flying the "Jolly Roger" during a "Crossing the Line" ceremony back in the 1980s.

ETA: Oh, I'd also ask that Navy officer who he thinks he is and what he thinks he's pulling.

Last edited by Monty; 07-12-2016 at 03:42 AM.
  #64  
Old 07-12-2016, 08:25 AM
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Yeah? Well I'm half-Czech! And we were HUMILIATED to be associated with you people for all those years! You know why? Because your dumplings SUCK. And your beer SUCKS.

Thank you for this moment of gratuitous Slovak hate, thumbing my nose from Prague where the beer and dumplings are DELICIOUS. Wave that flag; wave it wide and high -- summertime's done, come and gone my oh my
You can call this song
The "Czech No Slovak Blues."
  #65  
Old 07-12-2016, 08:27 AM
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"Treason doth prosper; what's the reason?
For if it prosper, none dare call it treason."*

*or if you wrap yourself in the Confederate flag, apparently, you get to beat the rap too.
It's still hard for me to believe that Davis, Stephens, Lee, and the rest of those fuckers didn't get strung up for the treasonous criminals they were.
  #66  
Old 07-12-2016, 08:37 AM
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"We hate black people. We are also too stupid to be allowed to breed."
This is the meaning that occurred to me.

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Originally Posted by Peremensoe View Post
I've seen rebel flags within 50 miles of the Canadian border.

Without additional information I don't think it can be pinned down. There are three possible (independent) messages that come immediately to my mind as most likely, but only one of those is necessarily racist. The others are, approximately, "I like the South," and "I'm a rebel/badass/rugged individualist." The latter is equivalent to the (likely) modern message of a Gadsden flag or sticker.
I'm going to substitute the Gadsden flag in my mind's eye when I see the rebel flag. It's a somewhat more palatable sentiment, and I like rattlesnakes.
  #67  
Old 07-12-2016, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by RivkahChaya View Post
Well, the flag Germany flew when we were at war with them is no longer the flag of the nation, and FWIW, I think it's the case that you can't actually fly the swastika flag in Germany. We have officially reconciled with the UK, and have allied with them during several wars, and they have embassies and consulates here.

I have an Israeli flag that I put in my window in Israeli Independence day, and Holocaust Remembrance Day, but I also put up a US flag on US holidays. My husband earned one in Iraq, so we might as well use it. On Holocaust Remembrance Day, we hang both flags, because the US was one of the countries that liberated the camps, and we hang it higher than the Israeli flag. (Yes, I know Israeli was not a country yet, but the flag looks like a tallit with a Magen David, so it's a good symbol of the Jewish people.)

Anyway, I get flying other flags, but I can't believe people who fly the Stars & Bars aren't, on some level, hoping to offend.
We're in the United States, not Germany, so it's perfectly legal to fly a swastika flag here.

Otherwise, I get what you're saying - I think anyone flying the confederate flag is an asshole too. I just don't think it rises anywhere near the level of needing to be an exception to the 1st Amendment.
  #68  
Old 07-12-2016, 09:14 AM
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I seem to remember the Navy ship I was on flying the "Jolly Roger" during a "Crossing the Line" ceremony back in the 1980s.

ETA: Oh, I'd also ask that Navy officer who he thinks he is and what he thinks he's pulling.
I would be curious where the flag was flown. (If it was flown as a burgee or a jack, it is unlikely to have had any negative reactions. If it was flown as an ensign, well, who in these days is going to challenge a warship of the USN?)

= = = =

The ensign position, a staff projecting from the stern of a ship or flown from the gaff of a sailing vessel so equipped, is the location of the national emblem, (i.e. ensign), and I could see a Jolly Roger getting a lot of negative attention for that.

The jack position is at the bow of the ship. That is usually reserved for a second national flag or ensign, but not all navies follow that tradition. So while it could garner negative attention, I am not sure that it would.

Courtesy flags, (flags of a nation being visited, flown by the visiting ship), are flown from the starboard yard* or spreader** of the most forward mast. However, on powered ships and boats (that do not have masts to hold sails) the courtesy flag is flown from the "mast" on which the navigation lights are placed and and on sloops (where there is only a single mast), the courtesy flag is flown on a spreader for that mast.

The last point gets confusing, because the burgee, (indicating a club with which the ship or boat is associated), is often flown from the same line, below the courtesy flag if there is one. So some joker flying the Jolly Roger from the position of the courtesy flag in or near the waters of the nation in which the vessel is registered--thus not needing to fly a courtesy flag--might simply claim that it is a club burgee.
(Flying the Jolly Roger in place of a courtesy flag, if sailing in the waters of another nation, would be regarded as a grave insult, at best.)

(There is also a house flag, (indicating the corporation of individual who owns the ship), that generally flies from the mainmast (or the mizzen for a ketch or yawl), but which might be flown on the port side on a sloop or powered vessel that had only a single mast.)

* yard: the horizontal or diagonal spar from which a sail is hung.
** spreader: a small spar-like device to keep the sail lines away from the mast on masts that do not carry yards.

Last edited by tomndebb; 07-12-2016 at 09:16 AM.
  #69  
Old 07-12-2016, 09:38 AM
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A Jolly Roger? WTF would be wrong with that?
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It's not the flag of the government the office represents.
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Originally Posted by Guinastasia View Post
Well then I suppose most of Pittsburgh is gonna be considered traitors. (My neighbor's got a huge one hanging next to his door)
HIS door. Not the door of the government offices.
  #70  
Old 07-12-2016, 10:13 AM
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On a Marconi rigged sailboat, you can use the back-stay to fly the ensign.

As far as the jolly roger, piracy laws are pretty old, however.... flying the jolly roger in international waters can get you boarded by any navy or other ship because pirates are offered no protection under the maritime laws. So not a good idea no matter how funny you think it may be to fly it.

Inside national/coastal waters, specifically Canada and US, it's just disrespectful, at worst. The coast guard or local harbour police can ask you to take it down but there really are no specific laws that say you must. However, international water laws apply in that you may be boarded.

In practice, the rest of the boating community just thinks you're a douche bag.
  #71  
Old 07-12-2016, 10:52 AM
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HIS door. Not the door of the government offices.
Okay, I think maybe I'm being too subtle. For those who aren't baseball fans, the Pittsburgh Pirates' emblem is the Jolly Roger. Don't any other cities have their sports' teams flags or anything hanging up during the playoffs, or whatever? (Even at publically owned spots)

(Of course, this probably depends on how we're defining "government property")
  #72  
Old 07-12-2016, 10:55 AM
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In practice, the rest of the boating community just thinks you're a douche bag.
Or a British submariner. They've been flying the Jolly Roger when coming back to port since WW1, when some high admiral called them "underhanded, unfair and damned un-British" and opined they should all be hanged as pirates.
  #73  
Old 07-12-2016, 10:59 AM
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Courtesy flags, (flags of a nation being visited, flown by the visiting ship), are flown from the starboard yard* or spreader** of the most forward mast. However, on powered ships and boats (that do not have masts to hold sails) the courtesy flag is flown from the "mast" on which the navigation lights are placed and and on sloops (where there is only a single mast), the courtesy flag is flown on a spreader for that mast.
The marina where we have our pontoon currently has a beautiful display of hundreds of courtesy flags flying. The owner bet me I couldn't guess the significance. I studied them for a while, then guessed:



He was surprised, gave me a beer!

SPOILER:
I had earlier observed him securing an Olympic flag to his boat, so it was an obvious guess.
  #74  
Old 07-12-2016, 11:23 AM
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That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard of. If they asked me that, I'd tell them to show me the specific law.
I suppose... But if a policeman pulls you over for speeding, do you demand he shows you the specific law?
  #75  
Old 07-12-2016, 12:57 PM
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Okay, I think maybe I'm being too subtle. For those who aren't baseball fans, the Pittsburgh Pirates' emblem is the Jolly Roger. Don't any other cities have their sports' teams flags or anything hanging up during the playoffs, or whatever? (Even at publically owned spots)

(Of course, this probably depends on how we're defining "government property")
I know they don't hang out Cubs flags In Chicago.
  #76  
Old 07-12-2016, 02:17 PM
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Congressman Steve King, of Iowa, keeps a Confederate flag on his desk, next to a Don't Tread On Me flag and the US flag (and something else that I think is the Iowa state flag, but I'm not sure). And what's that other flag, something to do with the Vatican?
http://gawker.com/why-does-birther-c...der-1783507988
  #77  
Old 07-12-2016, 04:37 PM
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Congressman Steve King, of Iowa, keeps a Confederate flag on his desk, next to a Don't Tread On Me flag and the US flag (and something else that I think is the Iowa state flag, but I'm not sure). And what's that other flag, something to do with the Vatican?
http://gawker.com/why-does-birther-c...der-1783507988
Ugh, Steve King. The only thing that makes sharing the same state is the fact that I'm on the opposite side of Iowa. Western Iowa, and particularly northwestern Iowa, is a scary land of hardcore Christian conservatives who don't need none of that liberal gummint nonsense, thankyouverymuch.


Looks like he has the American flag, the Iowa state flag, the Gadsden flag, the Confederate flag, and the papal flag. Cause nothing says "good friend of Catholics and the Pope" like the good old CSA flag.




He's such a maroon. A Democrat can't get any votes in his district, and the sane Republicans can't run anyone who can beat him in a primary.
  #78  
Old 07-12-2016, 06:06 PM
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So, who didn't see this coming? Seriously, what is it with the love affair with those who pretend the south was hunky dory and that damn rag?
Could it be that, whilst having no wish to return to the horrors of slavery, they do want to respect their ancestors who fought and died for 'that damn rag', however ignoble the cause. Sure, some of them may be bigots too, but it's a free country. Where's the harm? I can see it might hurt the feelings, and legitimately, of others but there's no law against hurting someone's feelings. At least not yet.

Last edited by aldiboronti; 07-12-2016 at 06:09 PM.
  #79  
Old 07-12-2016, 08:40 PM
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Could it be that, whilst having no wish to return to the horrors of slavery, they do want to respect their ancestors who fought and died for 'that damn rag', however ignoble the cause. Sure, some of them may be bigots too, but it's a free country. Where's the harm? I can see it might hurt the feelings, and legitimately, of others but there's no law against hurting someone's feelings. At least not yet.
Of course, it's a free country. Which means we can say they're complete assholes for doing so.
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Old 07-12-2016, 10:54 PM
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It's on government property. That's the stupid part here.

Keep the fucking rebel flag off of government flag poles.
This.
  #81  
Old 07-12-2016, 11:05 PM
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Could it be that, whilst having no wish to return to the horrors of slavery, they do want to respect their ancestors who fought and died for 'that damn rag', however ignoble the cause. Sure, some of them may be bigots too, but it's a free country. Where's the harm? I can see it might hurt the feelings, and legitimately, of others but there's no law against hurting someone's feelings. At least not yet.
Well, if there's no harm in hurt feelings, there's no harm in me calling these people a pack of traitorous, bigoted, inbred shitfucks.

Right?
  #82  
Old 07-12-2016, 11:50 PM
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This.
Technically though, it wasn't a government pole. It was a privately owned pole brought to the property. Otherwise, I totally agree.

Why anyone wants to continue to fly that stupid flag is beyond me. But hey, you wanna look like an idiot, that's your right. Just like it's my right to think you're a douchebag.
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Old 07-13-2016, 12:31 AM
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Do you even read the stuff you quote?

The incident in that message board post took place in Ontario, Canada. This thread is about flag usage in the United States.
  #84  
Old 07-13-2016, 04:28 PM
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Do you even read the stuff you quote?

The incident in that message board post took place in Ontario, Canada. This thread is about flag usage in the United States.

No, the highjack is about flag usage in international waters.

I've written to the Coast Guard to ask for clarification. (Would you believe, there's no email portal to the USCG to ask general questions? Hmpf! What kind of public service do you call that?)

Also, because you're D'Anconia, you're a fucking ignorant piece of dog shit.
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Old 07-13-2016, 09:18 PM
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No, the highjack is about flag usage in international waters.
If it was a "highjack" (sic) it's you're own doing. No one else was talking about international waters.

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Originally Posted by Peremensoe View Post
You are correct that the rebel flag does not belong on government flagpoles. But not because of its specific content, whatever someone might feel that to be. It would be equally inappropriate to fly a "POW/MIA" flag, or a rainbow, or a Jolly Roger.
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A Jolly Roger? WTF would be wrong with that?
  #86  
Old 07-13-2016, 09:33 PM
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I've written to the Coast Guard to ask for clarification. (Would you believe, there's no email portal to the USCG to ask general questions? Hmpf! What kind of public service do you call that?)
Did your City Council Member from the other thread write you back?
  #87  
Old 07-13-2016, 10:03 PM
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If it was a "highjack" (sic) it's you're [sic] own doing.
Nitpick: "Highjack" is an earlier and still technically correct alternative spelling of "hijack". First cast out the beam out of thine own eye, eh?
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Old 07-13-2016, 10:08 PM
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Nitpick: "Highjack" is an earlier and still technically correct alternative spelling of "hijack".
You're too kind.

I'm surprised s/he hasn't taken a broom to the mouse right there on the desk!!!!
  #89  
Old 07-13-2016, 10:16 PM
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If it was a "highjack" (sic) it's you're own doing. No one else was talking about international waters.
The Pirate flag was mentioned by someone else. The setting of International waters is relevant, because the Pirate Flag is totally legal in U.S. waters, where the First Amendment holds sway. Outside U.S. waters, different rules are involved, and so that's why I mentioned it.

Your spelling is as bad as your reasoning.

Also, no, I haven't heard back from my city council member yet (re a different discussion, over in the General Questions forum, in case anyone was curious.)
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Old 07-13-2016, 10:24 PM
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What rule/law/regulation "outside United States waters" prohibits merely flying the so-called "Jolly Roger"? AFAIK, piracy is determined by actions, not by displaying what is essentially a memento.
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Old 07-13-2016, 10:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Trinopus View Post
Your spelling is as bad as your reasoning.
Oh, do tell. Where are all of my spelling errors?
  #92  
Old 07-14-2016, 12:26 PM
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What rule/law/regulation "outside United States waters" prohibits merely flying the so-called "Jolly Roger"? AFAIK, piracy is determined by actions, not by displaying what is essentially a memento.
It's more of an old maritime tradition. What kind of dumbass pirate now a day would announce they are a pirate by flying an ensign to that effect? Anyway, everybody knows a pirate's chief weapons are fear & surprise. And pillaging!.... Chief, among a pirate's weapons are: fear, surprise & pillaging... and a fanatical devotion to buggery & rum.
  #93  
Old 07-14-2016, 03:00 PM
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They'll take away my buggery and rum when they pry them from my cold, dead...ah...er... Never! Never, I say!
  #94  
Old 07-14-2016, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Trinopus View Post
They'll take away my buggery and rum when they pry them from my cold, dead...ah...er... Never! Never, I say!
See post #91. Where are my alleged spelling errors?
  #95  
Old 07-14-2016, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by D'Anconia View Post
See post #91. Where are my alleged spelling errors?
Your kidding, right?

[edit: btw]

Last edited by Left Hand of Dorkness; 07-14-2016 at 04:23 PM.
  #96  
Old 07-14-2016, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by D'Anconia View Post
See post #91. Where are my alleged spelling errors?
Quote:
Originally Posted by D'Anconia View Post
If it was a "highjack" (sic) it's you're own doing. . . .
"You're" which should have been "your."
  #97  
Old 07-14-2016, 05:00 PM
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"You're" which should have been "your."
Duh!

Can I blame it on my phone, like everyone else does?

  #98  
Old 07-14-2016, 06:00 PM
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Everyone blames your phone? Odd.
  #99  
Old 07-14-2016, 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Monty View Post
What rule/law/regulation "outside United States waters" prohibits merely flying the so-called "Jolly Roger"? AFAIK, piracy is determined by actions, not by displaying what is essentially a memento.
That's pretty ironic.

And why don't you pit something truly evil like whatever inspired the mass murderer in Nice?
  #100  
Old 07-14-2016, 09:03 PM
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...
And why don't you pit something truly evil like whatever inspired the mass murderer in Nice?
Are you in the wrong thread? This thread is about inbreds.
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