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Old 08-20-2017, 10:07 PM
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USS John McCain Collision


http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/na...p-east-n794386

Another collision with a commercial vessel in a short period of time. After the first one I speculated that there was some hacking or tampering with navigation systems. Seems more likely now.
  #2  
Old 08-20-2017, 10:09 PM
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After the first one I speculated that there was some hacking or tampering with navigation systems. Seems more likely now.
No it doesn’t.
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Old 08-21-2017, 12:09 AM
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Another collision with a commercial vessel in a short period of time. After the first one I speculated that there was some hacking or tampering with navigation systems. Seems more likely now.
Quote:
An active-duty Navy officer expressed concern to Fox News over the training of young Navy officers aboard ships.

“It’s not the same level of training you used to get,” the officer said.
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/08...n-pacific.html

Quote:
Military experts said the latest incident, which comes after seven US sailors aboard the USS Fitzgerald died in a collision off the coast of Japan in June, calls into question the Navy's training and will likely lead to a serious shake-up among the Navy's leadership.
http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/20/asia/u...ore/index.html
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Old 08-21-2017, 12:17 AM
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I'm going to take this opportunity to express my disdain for the practice of naming edifices, structures, vessels, and foundations after living persons.

Last edited by kaylasdad99; 08-21-2017 at 12:17 AM.
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Old 08-21-2017, 12:20 AM
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I'm going to take this opportunity to express my disdain for the practice of naming edifices, structures, vessels, and foundations after living persons.
The ship named after the Senator's father and grandfather.
USS John S. McCain
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This warship is named after John S. McCain, Sr., and John S. McCain, Jr., both Admirals in the United States Navy. John S. McCain, Sr., commanded the aircraft carrier USS Ranger, and acted as commander of the Fast Carrier Task Force during the latter stages of World War II. John S. McCain, Jr., commanded the U.S. Navy submarines USS Gunnel and USS Dentuda during World War II. Subsequently, he held a number of posts, rising to Commander-in-Chief of the United States Pacific Command before retiring in 1972. These men were the grandfather and father of Senator John S. McCain III.

Last edited by running coach; 08-21-2017 at 12:21 AM.
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Old 08-21-2017, 12:21 AM
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I'm going to take this opportunity to express my disdain for the practice of naming edifices, structures, vessels, and foundations after living persons.
This warship is named after Senator McCain's father and grandfather, both dead.


Edit: Ninja'd.

Last edited by Velocity; 08-21-2017 at 12:22 AM.
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Old 08-21-2017, 12:27 AM
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Thank you. My disdain for the practice remains, and I am happy to concede that it does not apply to the ship in question.
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Old 08-21-2017, 01:12 AM
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Thank you. My disdain for the practice remains, and I am happy to concede that it does not apply to the ship in question.
Yeah, the fact that we have a USS Gaby Giffords is terrible.
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Old 08-21-2017, 02:08 AM
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Yeah, the fact that we have a USS Gaby Giffords is terrible.
I prefer the term "unseemly," but her status as an admirable figure does not change my position.
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Old 08-21-2017, 05:39 AM
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Also - and this has bothered me for a while - don't give the ship the full name, middle initials included. Just the surname is enough. If it worked for Chester W. Nimitz, it'll work for John S. McCain.
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Old 08-21-2017, 06:46 AM
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Don't all naval vessels have radar and someone watching them? And in this day and age, wouldn't that also include software that would process the data and warn when it's on a collision course? How about merchant vessels- do they have radar as well? Two tragic accidents in a short time- it all seems so avoidable.
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Old 08-21-2017, 06:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Snarky_Kong View Post
Another collision with a commercial vessel in a short period of time. After the first one I speculated that there was some hacking or tampering with navigation systems. Seems more likely now.
You can go all conspiracy theory on us if you like, but the first one has been admitted to have been a crew stuff up. If it involevd hacking or tampering with systems, it seems likely the navy would have said "the collision was caused by a steering failure" or similiar, even if they didn't want to admit to hacking or tampering.

Further, the very fact you are referring to "navigation systems" in this context suggests to me you don't know what you are talking about. Navigation systems have nothing to do with close quarters collision avoidance. Even if every electronic system on the ship was deader than a doornail (or giving wrong information), unless you are assuming that the hacking extended to making everyone on the bridge temporarily blind or comatose, the collisions should not have happened since there are supposed to be several Mark I eyeball systems in full operation.
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Old 08-21-2017, 07:21 AM
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Don't all naval vessels have radar and someone watching them? And in this day and age, wouldn't that also include software that would process the data and warn when it's on a collision course? How about merchant vessels- do they have radar as well? Two tragic accidents in a short time- it all seems so avoidable.
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Originally Posted by Princhester View Post
Navigation systems have nothing to do with close quarters collision avoidance. Even if every electronic system on the ship was deader than a doornail (or giving wrong information), unless you are assuming that the hacking extended to making everyone on the bridge temporarily blind or comatose, the collisions should not have happened since there are supposed to be several Mark I eyeball systems in full operation.
May be examples of overreliance on the technology and past performance leading to complacency. After all how often DO these ships have collisions in those busy waters? I agree questions will be raised about the state of basic mariner's skills. That they are both units of DS15 is going to get some sweat-inducing attention put on Squadron/Fleet leadership.
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Old 08-21-2017, 07:40 AM
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May be examples of overreliance on the technology and past performance leading to complacency. After all how often DO these ships have collisions in those busy waters?
What technology specifically? Collision avoidance is primarily a matter of human judgment and control.

Ship collisions aren't too uncommon. The collision occurred near the Singapore Straits which are some of the most challenging (in terms of the potential for collision) in the world. There are few masters that go through there without at least a small amount of sweat on the upper lip.
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Old 08-21-2017, 08:23 AM
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Don't all naval vessels have radar and someone watching them? And in this day and age, wouldn't that also include software that would process the data and warn when it's on a collision course? How about merchant vessels- do they have radar as well? Two tragic accidents in a short time- it all seems so avoidable.
Maybe the guy watching radar didn't have any coffee.
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Old 08-21-2017, 08:45 AM
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There is a very high probability that both ships knew about the other well before they hit and knew of the risk of a collision and were trying to avoid precisely that when they... didn't.

Radar isn't the point.

One of the reasons maritime "rules of the road" came into being was a concern about the disturbing number of collisions between vessels well aware of one another, that basically manoeuvred into one another while trying to do the opposite.
  #17  
Old 08-21-2017, 09:01 AM
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This warship is named after Senator McCain's father and grandfather, both dead.
Granddad was a hero at the Philippine Sea. Balls of brass run in that family.
  #18  
Old 08-21-2017, 10:25 AM
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This is the fourth serious ship collision in the 7th fleet this year! I wouldn't be surprised to see a shake up in the 7th fleet's command.

The McCain's command would be aware of the Fitzgerald's crash two months ago. It seems like they'd have their best crewmen on duty in crowded waters

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.was...3fa_story.html

Quote:
The collision marks the fourth time this year a Navy vessel with the 7th Fleet has been involved in a major mishap, an embarrassing string that has prompted the service to remove several senior officers from command.

The others include the deadly collision involving the USS Fitzgerald on June 17, a May 9 incident in which the guided-missile cruiser USS Lake Champlain collided with a South Korean fishing vessel east of the Korean Peninsula and a Jan. 31 mishap in which the guided-missile cruiser USS Antietam ran aground in Tokyo Bay, near its home port of Yokosuka.

Last edited by aceplace57; 08-21-2017 at 10:28 AM.
  #19  
Old 08-21-2017, 10:47 AM
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This warship is named after Senator McCain's father and grandfather, both dead.
Other than USS The Sullivans, are there any other people who have to share a ship name?
  #20  
Old 08-21-2017, 12:41 PM
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After the Fitzgerald collision, I read that the protocol was that the captain should have been brought to the bridge anytime a ship gets too close (under 4000 feet?), although that obviously wasn't done in that case.
  #21  
Old 08-21-2017, 12:43 PM
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What technology specifically? Collision avoidance is primarily a matter of human judgment and control.
Most ship collisions in shipping lanes becuase the parties at hand are either misinterpreting nautical right-of-way rules or because one of the vessels is having problems maintaining weigh and not communicating their distress. Collisions die to errors in navigation are still all too frequent despite GPS assistance because skippers overestimate their abilities or just aren't paying attention.

Every time you make something 'foolproof', the fools just take it as a new challenge.

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Old 08-21-2017, 01:06 PM
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The Chief of Navel Operations has ordered a operational pause and a special investigation.

I think it's a very good move. The Navy has to determine why these accidents are occuring and get the problem corrected.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbs...n-the-pacific/
Quote:
CNO Richardson said the review will include -- but not be limited to -- trends in operational tempo, performance, maintenance, equipment, and personnel. It will also focus on surface warfare training and career development, including tactical and navigational proficiency. 

The investigative team will be diverse, including people from across the Navy (both officer and enlisted), and experts from outside the Navy and the private sector.

Last edited by aceplace57; 08-21-2017 at 01:10 PM.
  #23  
Old 08-21-2017, 05:13 PM
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This saddens me again. Seems it should not be possible.
  #24  
Old 08-21-2017, 06:01 PM
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Most ship collisions in shipping lanes becuase the parties at hand are either misinterpreting nautical right-of-way rules or because one of the vessels is having problems maintaining weigh and not communicating their distress.
No not the latter. This would be rare.

Quote:
Collisions die to errors in navigation are still all too frequent...
Allisions, maybe, not collisions. Errors in navigation are where you don't know your position, not errors in collision avoidance.
  #25  
Old 08-21-2017, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Snarky_Kong View Post
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/na...p-east-n794386

Another collision with a commercial vessel in a short period of time. After the first one I speculated that there was some hacking or tampering with navigation systems. Seems more likely now.
McCain is a walking train wreck. It looks like it's carrying over to the ship.

Last edited by Clothahump; 08-21-2017 at 06:37 PM.
  #26  
Old 08-21-2017, 07:32 PM
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The Chief of Navel Operations has ordered a operational pause and a special investigation.
I saw what you did there.
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Old 08-21-2017, 07:41 PM
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Thought maybe I could slip that one in.
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Old 08-21-2017, 07:51 PM
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McCain is a walking train wreck. It looks like it's carrying over to the ship.
Really respectful to the 10 missing sailors. Classy as usual, Clothy.
  #29  
Old 08-21-2017, 07:51 PM
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Knock off the political jabs in this thread. No warning issued.

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McCain is a walking train wreck. It looks like it's carrying over to the ship.
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Old 08-21-2017, 08:16 PM
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Ten missing this time

It is never a convenient time for an "operational pause" of the fleet ('cause you need to have it underway and at the ready, and especially so Aegis platforms in East Asia these days) but the accrual of three collisions within 4 months does call for a check on what's up.
  #31  
Old 08-21-2017, 08:23 PM
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McCain is a walking train wreck. It looks like it's carrying over to the ship.
Christ, you're an asshole.
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Old 08-21-2017, 08:40 PM
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[QUOTE=Princhester;20429736]Allisions/QUOTE]

One of my favorite nautical words.
  #33  
Old 08-21-2017, 08:49 PM
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CNN is has conflicting reports claiming a loss of steering on the McCain.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn...ion/index.html

I'm surprised they haven't recovered any of the ten missing men. They should have an accurate GPS for the accident. How far away could they drift before search planes got there?

I know the chance for survivors is slim.

Last edited by aceplace57; 08-21-2017 at 08:53 PM.
  #34  
Old 08-21-2017, 08:50 PM
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Allisions
One of my favorite nautical words.
It's actually not used much outside the US IME but I know this is a largely US message board so I thought I would throw it in...

Last edited by Princhester; 08-21-2017 at 08:51 PM.
  #35  
Old 08-21-2017, 08:52 PM
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McCain is a walking train wreck. It looks like it's carrying over to the ship.
How fucking dare you? Ten sailors' remains will be sent back to their families in draped caskets (if they're found at all) and you sit there in your political swill w/o a care for them or their families?
Sacrifices are made in the US military for people who are fat, happy and ignorant of it, using those deaths only to hurt the political feelings of others when Gold Star families are living out their worst nightmare.
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Old 08-21-2017, 08:52 PM
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CNN is has conflicting reports claiming a loss of steering on the McCain.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn...ion/index.html
Where's the conflicting part?
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Old 08-21-2017, 08:54 PM
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Two different officials gave different stories.

One says steering out. The other says they had fixed it.

Which official should we believe?

I'm assuming they both were talking off the record.

Last edited by aceplace57; 08-21-2017 at 08:57 PM.
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Old 08-21-2017, 08:56 PM
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Christ, you're an asshole.

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  #39  
Old 08-21-2017, 09:01 PM
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Two different officials gave different stories.

One says steering out. The other says they had fixed it.

Which official should we believe?

I'm assuming they both were talking off the record.
IME media have really tremendous difficulty with keeping the distinction between damage from before and after a marine incident. I've been involved in several where the media has reported that a ship was in a poor state and either implied or outright asserted that this was a cause or potential cause of the incident, when actually the ship was in a poor state because of the incident.

Too early to consider any information to be reliable, IME.
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Old 08-21-2017, 09:03 PM
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Two different officials gave different stories.

One says steering out. The other says they had fixed it.

Which official should we believe?

I'm assuming they both were talking off the record.
Both said the steering went out before the collision.
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Old 08-21-2017, 09:33 PM
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McCain is a walking train wreck. It looks like it's carrying over to the ship.
So nice to see your respect for our military and those who serve. You're all heart, Clothy.

Last edited by Guinastasia; 08-21-2017 at 09:35 PM.
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Old 08-21-2017, 09:38 PM
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So nice to see your respect for our military and those who serve. You're all heart, Clothy.
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Old 08-22-2017, 05:29 AM
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For someone completely ignorant of naval operations, it seems unfathomable that the 7th Fleet has had so many incidents in such a short period of time. The 7th Fleet also has officers implicated in the Fat Leonard Scandal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_Leonard_scandal). Are these accidents a sign of bad leadership, a sign of how crowded the waterways in which they operate are, or just bad luck? Anyone with experience in naval operations able to chime in?
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Old 08-22-2017, 06:34 AM
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BBC is reporting that remains have been found. No further details yet.
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Old 08-22-2017, 07:16 AM
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Maybe the guy watching radar didn't have any coffee.
This may be the case. It may even be a lack of sleep and attention that not even coffee can fix.

On Reddit, I've seen accounts of sailors that have served recently on US ships, some even on destroyers in the 7th fleet (this thread has been particularly informative). They all talk about being overworked, and not getting enough sleep. Normal duty rotations might leave 6 hours for sleep, but that can get cut down to 4, which of course means sailors are lucky to get 3 hours of decent quality sleep. Stories of dozing off during a watch, or making stupid mistakes due to lack of attention, are common.

Apparently there is some Navy research on crew endurance pointing out how this is a terrible way to run a ship, but the culture of overwork is entrenched. And on smaller ships like destroyers, there isn't any room to house enough sailors to keep everything manned with less demanding duty schedules.

There's also some grumbling about slipping training standards, but that's harder to evaluate as a layman reading anecdotes like this.
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Old 08-22-2017, 07:23 AM
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Missed edit:

Here's an article from Navy researchers, on the radical benefits of letting sailors get regular sleep.

This crazy new idea was first tried only a few years ago...
  #47  
Old 08-22-2017, 07:49 AM
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I'm surprised they haven't recovered any of the ten missing men. They should have an accurate GPS for the accident. How far away could they drift before search planes got there?
In the USS Fitzgerald, the remains of all 7 "missing" were found inside the damaged ship, in rooms that were flooded and sealed off.
  #48  
Old 08-22-2017, 07:53 AM
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I've seen accounts of sailors that have served recently on US ships, some even on destroyers in the 7th fleet (this thread has been particularly informative). They all talk about being overworked, and not getting enough sleep.
  #49  
Old 08-22-2017, 08:56 AM
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How common are ship collisions? These two made the headlines because a U.S. warship was involved, but are there lots of other collisions? Or is the U.S. Navy having an unusually bad run?

I wonder what the cause is. Effects lead back to earlier causes and so on, so "poor training" may be the best answer. But then ... what has caused the poor training?

I'm a paranoid conspiracy geek and won't rule out sabotage of some sort. Yes, a trained crew should have recovered from the sabotage but there is a twist involved in redundant systems: If A is "inessential" (due to other independent safety measures) then procedure A might have gotten shabby treatment. Isn't this why the U.S. sub collided with a Japanese boat several years ago? Sonar showed the boat but sonar technician didn't care: Captain was making a Go-NoGo decision with the periscope. And the frazzled Captain, showing off for Congresscritters IIRC, took only a perfunctory look via periscope -- the sonar operator would warn of any nearby craft.
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Old 08-22-2017, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by lazybratsche View Post
On Reddit, I've seen accounts of sailors that have served recently on US ships, some even on destroyers in the 7th fleet (this thread has been particularly informative). They all talk about being overworked, and not getting enough sleep. Normal duty rotations might leave 6 hours for sleep, but that can get cut down to 4, which of course means sailors are lucky to get 3 hours of decent quality sleep. Stories of dozing off during a watch, or making stupid mistakes due to lack of attention, are common.
Came here just to mention this, and beaten to the punch. Still, when I read that yesterday I was astonished that this is acceptable practice. I once worked at a newspaper in the production department and due to a variety of circumstances, I worked several looong days in a row with maybe 3-4 hours of sleep a night. After a few days I was a wreck that wasn’t safe to operate an Xacto knife, much less a warship. I’m confident if that situation went the length of a tour I would have had some sort of mental breakdown. Dunno how they do it.
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