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  #201  
Old 07-15-2019, 03:46 PM
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Epstein's lawyers are arguing that he should be allowed house arrest in his Upper East Side mansion because he has been obeying the rules of his prison release. But isn't the fact that investigators found tons of videos of underage girls proof that he has, in fact, committed a crime for every day that he was in possession of those illegal materials?
https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/11/us/je...ail/index.html
One would think.

Also, the fact that investigators found a fake (albeit expired) passport, and lots of cash and diamonds would seem to indicate a predisposition to flee.

I'm not the judge hearing the bail motion, obviously, but it absolutely seems to me that there's no way he should get bail, or even house arrest.
  #202  
Old 07-15-2019, 09:49 PM
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Lol, here is KAC hanging around with one Mr Larry Visoski, December 28, 2018:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BOkJSYUjMNA/

"Who is he", you ask? Why, none other than one Jeffery Epsteins chief personal pilot:

https://twitter.com/soychicka/status...566397442?s=19

I mean, I'm sure pedo man was spending a quiet new years at home and gave his pilot the entire christmas-nyd period off, but this is weird coincidence, that his pilot was taking pictures with a woman who is a top-tier power in the current White House, right?

Or could it be that Epstein was visiting Trump?

I'm sure it's the weird coincidence thingy. Has to be. Wish someone could explain this to me

Last edited by JohnT; 07-15-2019 at 09:51 PM.
  #203  
Old 07-15-2019, 10:20 PM
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This, too, is... I'm sure... mere coincidence.

So, on November 7th, an airplane with the "call sign" N212JE, flew to Slovakia, stayed for a couple of days, then flew to Paris, staying there through the 10th. Slovakia is a well-known source for trafficked young girls.

This plane is owned by the subject of this thread, Mr. Epstein, and possibly piloted by Mr. Visoski, above.

Oddly enough, another plane... N284CC, this time... leaves Washington and also flies to Paris, arriving November 10th. This plane is owned by one Thomas Barrack, Trump Inauguration Committee fundraising chair and one of the three people, along with Trump and Epstein, whom Michael Woolf called a “set of nightlife musketeers”, playing together during the 1980s and ‘90s.

November 10th... November 10th... where was the President?

Oh, that's right: That was the day Trump, while in Paris, suddenly cancelled a visit to a US cemetary because of rain.

I'm sure this is ALL a BIG coincidence.

Right?

Last edited by JohnT; 07-15-2019 at 10:21 PM.
  #204  
Old 07-15-2019, 10:38 PM
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This, too, is... I'm sure... mere coincidence.

So, on November 7th, an airplane with the "call sign" N212JE, flew to Slovakia, stayed for a couple of days, then flew to Paris, staying there through the 10th. Slovakia is a well-known source for trafficked young girls.

This plane is owned by the subject of this thread, Mr. Epstein, and possibly piloted by Mr. Visoski, above.

Oddly enough, another plane... N284CC, this time... leaves Washington and also flies to Paris, arriving November 10th. This plane is owned by one Thomas Barrack, Trump Inauguration Committee fundraising chair and one of the three people, along with Trump and Epstein, whom Michael Woolf called a “set of nightlife musketeers”, playing together during the 1980s and ‘90s.

November 10th... November 10th... where was the President?

Oh, that's right: That was the day Trump, while in Paris, suddenly cancelled a visit to a US cemetary because of rain.

I'm sure this is ALL a BIG coincidence.

Right?
Interesting. Hopefully, the press sees that and the pool reporters who were there that day have better notes on what time of the day they did and did not see Trump that day.
  #205  
Old 07-15-2019, 10:43 PM
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I'm also searching for corroboration for that last. There is a subset of Twitter which do nothing but track the aircraft of the rich and infamous, so I should find something soonish. (Like, tomorrow - it's late at night, here!)
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Old 07-15-2019, 10:51 PM
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Here are the logs from ADSBExchange.com about this flight. Looks like it checks out.

https://flight-data.adsbexchange.com...tration=N212JE

An article explaining how Epsteins aircraft is being tracked:

https://www.insider.com/jeffrey-epst...ht-data-2019-7
  #207  
Old 07-15-2019, 11:03 PM
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It looks like Colony Capital was crashing under the leadership of Richard Saltzman. On the 7th (November, 2018), it was announced that Tom Barrack was returning as CEO to try and save the company.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...er-shares-fall

It looks like this is also the point in time where Trump was deciding who to replace Jeff Sessions with:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...l?srnd=premium
  #208  
Old 07-15-2019, 11:11 PM
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Something formatted a little nicer than Twitter for you:

https://publius2point0.wordpress.com...-day-in-paris/

Last edited by Sage Rat; 07-15-2019 at 11:13 PM.
  #209  
Old 07-16-2019, 12:22 AM
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Tracking through the flight history, Epstein seems to have a pretty set pattern of going back and forth along this route over the course of a few weeks or months:

Paris - New York - Florida - Bahamas

Finding him in Paris isn't too impressive but private flying tends to be very seasonal so let's check how regularly he is in Paris during the crappy months (November-Februrary). The website doesn't have winter of this year yet (obviously) and 2017 is back further than they have. From his historic flight logs, here are the dates that he went to LFPB:

Feb 10, 2002 (stays 3 days)
May 11, 2002
May 30, 2002
June 27, 2002
July 10, 2002
Aug 28, 2002
Sep 29, 2002
Nov 19, 2002 (stays 3 days)
Feb 13, 2003 (stays 4 days)
Apr 6, 2003
Oct 30, 2003 (stays 5 days)
Feb 12, 2003 (stays 5 days)

Overall...we would expect him to be there around that time of the year for that period of time.

In the case of Barrack, we only have the flight logs from the previous 365 days. He seems to mostly do:

Mexico (usually Baja) - LA - Aspen - New York - Middle East

It looks like he might have some business in London, but otherwise any stops in Europe seem purely incidental while on the way to or back from the Middle East (excepting once trip to the South of France for vacation).

At any rate, outside of the November 10 flight, I don't see any other trips to Paris. There's a few stop-overs, but that's it.

Pretty clearly, he went to Paris to meet with someone. It's just not part of his MO to go to there and come back, otherwise.

That Trump took a holiday from Presidenting makes it seem pretty likely that he was meeting with someone, clandestinely, as well. Barrack seems like the most obvious choice. Clearly, it wasn't to go sneak off and talk to the President of France in secret - since he wasn't with the President of France. Who else would be in France that he needed to go sneak off to talk to?

Epstein could simply have been in the area.

The odds are the one of the two following is true:

1) There was some emergency that Barrack needed to talk to Trump about, in secret. This could be anything from finances to Middle East nonsense (leaving Syria?)
2) The crew realized that Trump and Epstein were just going to happen to be together at the same time, and had some things they knew they were going to need to deal with, so Barrack flew over. This could be anything from finances to Middle East nonsense to figuring out a plan for running offense against the coming scandals around Epstein and Saudi Arabian influence.
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Old 07-16-2019, 12:28 AM
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Both of which lead to the question "... and what was so important the President had to cancel an Armistice Day memorial to meet in secrecy?" and one of which leads to the question "... and what was so important the President had to cancel an Armistice Day memorial to meet with a known pedophile in secrecy?"
  #211  
Old 07-16-2019, 06:19 AM
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Curiouser and curiouser. Watching this thread with interest.

What happens if Trump is implicated in a pedophilia scandal? Will we see Republicans defending, or at least minimizing, pedophilia? At this point I wouldn't be surprised.
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  #212  
Old 07-16-2019, 07:13 AM
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Absolutely the Republicans will defend Trump. You don't go all in on white nationalism if you are going to get squeamish about your leader's flaws.
  #213  
Old 07-16-2019, 07:53 AM
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FAKE NEWS. It never happened! And when it did happen, it wasn't a crime! And when the crimes were committed, Trump wasn't there! And when Trump was directly involved... OBAMA! HILLARY!

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  #214  
Old 07-16-2019, 01:30 PM
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Both of which lead to the question "... and what was so important the President had to cancel an Armistice Day memorial to meet in secrecy?" and one of which leads to the question "... and what was so important the President had to cancel an Armistice Day memorial to meet with a known pedophile in secrecy?"
So, when Trump says to his Secret Service detail, guys, I'm just gonna go in this back room and meet up with someone, trust me, it will be fine, no need for you to go in there and check things out, they all just agree to it?

Hold on, let me check on something. Yep, this is the Pit: You are fucking nuts.
  #215  
Old 07-16-2019, 01:54 PM
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What happens if Trump is implicated in a pedophilia scandal? Will we see Republicans defending, or at least minimizing, pedophilia? At this point I wouldn't be surprised.
When you get down to it, laws against pedophilia are just one more government regulation. I can see them framing it as a choice between freedom and socialism. Abhorrent, but we have seen this movie before.

I like to think that some pubbies, somewhere, still have some standards. But what are the odds?
  #216  
Old 07-16-2019, 02:10 PM
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Curiouser and curiouser. Watching this thread with interest.

What happens if Trump is implicated in a pedophilia scandal? Will we see Republicans defending, or at least minimizing, pedophilia? At this point I wouldn't be surprised.
It's pretty optimistic to believe that he will be (though, obviously one can always hope that he is caught if he has done something like that). But I do think that there's something to be said for creating doubt.

If it was just Epstein then, minus photos, you're probably never going to get past "yeah, I never saw underaged women with him, regardless of what he might have done on his own".

It's when you point out that Trump has worked with and been friends with 3 people arrested for child sex trafficking, an additional 2 who seem likely to have been guilty of it as well, that you can hope that people start to ask what the odds of that are? How many people have close to them five pedophiles, not by blood relation?

The longer the focus stays on Epstein, the greater the chance that someone will finally make that point in the news and once that starts to become a real question being asked, that's where Trump finally goes away.

It's unlikely that you're going to find conclusive proof of any poor behavior on his part towards underaged girls. But that's not what the media should be aiming for and I really hope that they'll stop being so straight-up moronic and just make some simple points and ask some real, meaningful questions:

Who knows five pedophiles, not by blood relation? Is that something that can really just happen by bad luck?
  #217  
Old 07-16-2019, 02:16 PM
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Both of which lead to the question "... and what was so important the President had to cancel an Armistice Day memorial to meet in secrecy?" and one of which leads to the question "... and what was so important the President had to cancel an Armistice Day memorial to meet with a known pedophile in secrecy?"
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Originally Posted by Fiddle Peghead View Post
So, when Trump says to his Secret Service detail, guys, I'm just gonna go in this back room and meet up with someone, trust me, it will be fine, no need for you to go in there and check things out, they all just agree to it?

Hold on, let me check on something. Yep, this is the Pit: You are fucking nuts.
As described above, that would be fucking nuts. But telling the detail to leave the room once they’re both there isn’t implausible at all.

Last edited by kaylasdad99; 07-16-2019 at 02:19 PM.
  #218  
Old 07-16-2019, 02:18 PM
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...It's unlikely that you're going to find conclusive proof of any poor behavior on his part towards underaged girls...
Walking in on the Miss Teen USA (or whatever it was) dressing rooms?
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  #219  
Old 07-16-2019, 02:45 PM
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As described above, that would be fucking nuts. But telling the detail to leave the room once they’re both there isn’t implausible at all.
It's quite implausible to me that Trump would set up a clandestine meeting with a known sex offender, on a trip where the whole world is watching his every move. Trump is a moron. He is not a fool. Okay, he IS a fool too, but I hope you get my meaning.
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Old 07-16-2019, 03:00 PM
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To me, it's sort of like the Clinton/Loretta Lynch (AG) meeting on that airport runway in broad daylight, but in reverse. There is no way Clinton would have set up or gone to a meeting with her that day to dream up some nefarious plot, the details of which I now forget he was said to have wanted done, literally in broad daylight. He would have called her secretly on the phone, or emailed her, or communicated by carrier pigeon. Not do it where everyone would be aware, and give his enemies ammo to attack him with. No, if Trump wanted to talk with anyone secretly, he would have done it in a way that would be nearly impossible to trace. And I have no good idea how he could have done even that. I am quite comfortable in saying that I guarantee Trump will never be shown to have done any such thing.

Last edited by Fiddle Peghead; 07-16-2019 at 03:03 PM.
  #221  
Old 07-16-2019, 03:16 PM
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Trump has done such things. The only question is why.
  #222  
Old 07-16-2019, 03:30 PM
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Aside from his addiction to Twitter, Trump strikes me as an old-school mob boss. He'd rather have a sit-down than use the phone or any other technology for talking "business."
  #223  
Old 07-16-2019, 03:43 PM
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It's quite implausible to me that Trump would set up a clandestine meeting with a known sex offender, on a trip where the whole world is watching his every move. Trump is a moron. He is not a fool. Okay, he IS a fool too, but I hope you get my meaning.
Agent Orange Ass-clown has met with Putin in secret meetings with the world watching and then joked about Russia interference in US elections surrounded by reporters.

You think he's beyond setting up a meeting with Epstein just to check if the child trafficker destroyed that video like he promised he would?
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Old 07-16-2019, 04:45 PM
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So there’s this right wing meme I’ve been seeing on Twitter

https://mobile.twitter.com/someguy22...541440/photo/1

Don’t click the link if you are susceptible to the crazy. It’s a link of names out of Epstein’s address book. Selectively Democrats and show biz types. Bill Clinton is at the top.

But something seemed wrong. I went back to the address book. Bill Clinton is NOT listed. Nor is Hillary. Not even a short listing. There is a listing for the White House but it’s two lines and seems to consist of the general information phone number and the address,
I guess they weren’t THAT close.
  #225  
Old 07-16-2019, 04:48 PM
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Walking in on the Miss Teen USA (or whatever it was) dressing rooms?
What political party are the four (out of something like forty) people who said that he did it?

Of course, the media should be asking, "What are the odds that a man with three provable pedophile associates and two other probables would also be accused, independently, of ogling naked tweens?"

You can't just report stuff in isolation. If you just mention that Trump flew on a plane with Epstein once and you don't also mention Epstein and Nader and Arif and Miss Teen USA, then you're just not doing your job as a reporter. People aren't going to remember this stuff on their own. You have to tie it together.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 07-16-2019 at 04:50 PM.
  #226  
Old 07-16-2019, 04:51 PM
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Agent Orange Ass-clown has met with Putin in secret meetings with the world watching and then joked about Russia interference in US elections surrounded by reporters.

You think he's beyond setting up a meeting with Epstein just to check if the child trafficker destroyed that video like he promised he would?
LOL, the vaunted Secret Service allowed Trump to meet, alone, with Russians in the Oval Office.

The idea that the Secret Service wouldn't "allow" these meetings... when the Director serves at the pleasure of the sitting President... is preposterous. And how many Directors have the SS had under Trump? Four, in two years.

And given that the Secret Service was a hot mess under Obama, I cannot imagine that they've gotten better under the Trumpster Fire.
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Old 07-16-2019, 04:53 PM
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It's quite implausible to me that Trump would set up a clandestine meeting with a known sex offender, on a trip where the whole world is watching his every move. Trump is a moron. He is not a fool. Okay, he IS a fool too, but I hope you get my meaning.
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To me, it's sort of like the Clinton/Loretta Lynch (AG) meeting on that airport runway in broad daylight, but in reverse. There is no way Clinton would have set up or gone to a meeting with her that day to dream up some nefarious plot, the details of which I now forget he was said to have wanted done, literally in broad daylight. He would have called her secretly on the phone, or emailed her, or communicated by carrier pigeon. Not do it where everyone would be aware, and give his enemies ammo to attack him with. No, if Trump wanted to talk with anyone secretly, he would have done it in a way that would be nearly impossible to trace. And I have no good idea how he could have done even that. I am quite comfortable in saying that I guarantee Trump will never be shown to have done any such thing.
Trump doesn't email and he doesn't say anything over the phone that can't be said on TV. He only has discussions of import in private and in person.
  #228  
Old 07-16-2019, 04:56 PM
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What political party are the four (out of something like forty) people who said that he did it?

Of course, the media should be asking, "What are the odds that a man with three provable pedophile associates and two other probables would also be accused, independently, of ogling naked tweens?"

You can't just report stuff in isolation. If you just mention that Trump flew on a plane with Epstein once and you don't also mention Epstein and Nader and Arif and Miss Teen USA, then you're just not doing your job as a reporter. People aren't going to remember this stuff on their own. You have to tie it together.
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On an appearance on The Howard Stern Show in 2005, published on Sunday by CNN, Trump described going backstage at the beauty pageants while the contestants were undressed. “Before a show, I’ll go backstage and everyone’s getting dressed, and everything else, and you know, no men are anywhere, and I’m allowed to go in because I’m the owner of the pageant and therefore I’m inspecting it,” he said. “You know, I’m inspecting because I want to make sure that everything is good.”

“You know, they’re standing there with no clothes. ‘Is everybody okay?’” he continued. “And you see these incredible looking women, and so, I sort of get away with things like that.”

According to interviews BuzzFeed News conducted with former Miss Teen USA contestants, Trump did just that in 1997. Four women who were competing in the pageant that year — including one who was 15 at the time — recalled that Trump walked into the dressing area while they were changing.
  #229  
Old 07-16-2019, 05:38 PM
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Actually, they met in the basement of a Parisian pizza place. You can google map it: there’s like three within 49 minutes of that runway. Coincidence? Hmmmm
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Old 07-16-2019, 05:49 PM
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Oh, so Trump said it. In that case it's probably just fake news, you can't believe anything that guys says.

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  #231  
Old 07-16-2019, 06:02 PM
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To me, it's sort of like the Clinton/Loretta Lynch (AG) meeting on that airport runway in broad daylight, but in reverse. There is no way Clinton would have set up or gone to a meeting with her that day to dream up some nefarious plot, the details of which I now forget he was said to have wanted done, literally in broad daylight. He would have called her secretly on the phone, or emailed her, or communicated by carrier pigeon. Not do it where everyone would be aware, and give his enemies ammo to attack him with. No, if Trump wanted to talk with anyone secretly, he would have done it in a way that would be nearly impossible to trace. And I have no good idea how he could have done even that. I am quite comfortable in saying that I guarantee Trump will never be shown to have done any such thing.
You're ignoring the difference between Clinton and Trump -- about 50 IQ points.
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Old 07-16-2019, 06:04 PM
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On an appearance on The Howard Stern Show in 2005, published on Sunday by CNN, Trump described going backstage at the beauty pageants while the contestants were undressed. “Before a show, I’ll go backstage and everyone’s getting dressed, and everything else, and you know, no men are anywhere, and I’m allowed to go in because I’m the owner of the pageant and therefore I’m inspecting it,” he said. “You know, I’m inspecting because I want to make sure that everything is good.”

“You know, they’re standing there with no clothes. ‘Is everybody okay?’” he continued. “And you see these incredible looking women, and so, I sort of get away with things like that.”

According to interviews BuzzFeed News conducted with former Miss Teen USA contestants, Trump did just that in 1997. Four women who were competing in the pageant that year — including one who was 15 at the time — recalled that Trump walked into the dressing area while they were changing.
Trump brags to Howard Stern that he get to look at nude underage girls. Makes a point to say that no other men are there. Well of course not, a man would not do that.
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Old 07-16-2019, 06:17 PM
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Agent Orange Ass-clown has met with Putin in secret meetings with the world watching and then joked about Russia interference in US elections surrounded by reporters.

You think he's beyond setting up a meeting with Epstein just to check if the child trafficker destroyed that video like he promised he would?
He can explain meeting with Putin. The president is expected to meet with foreign leaders. I don't know how he would explain a meeting with Epstein if it were found out, and it would be found out.

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LOL, the vaunted Secret Service allowed Trump to meet, alone, with Russians in the Oval Office.

The idea that the Secret Service wouldn't "allow" these meetings... when the Director serves at the pleasure of the sitting President... is preposterous. And how many Directors have the SS had under Trump? Four, in two years.

And given that the Secret Service was a hot mess under Obama, I cannot imagine that they've gotten better under the Trumpster Fire.
My point was not "allowing", it was that Secret Service agents would know about it, and Trump would not be dumb enough to let anyone know he was meeting with Epstein. It would be too risky that the info would be leaked.
  #234  
Old 07-16-2019, 06:22 PM
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You're ignoring the difference between Clinton and Trump -- about 50 IQ points.
Maybe you're joking, or not, I don't know. But I am not ignoring anything. It is preposterous that Trump would be so stupid as to meet with a known sex offender that he has ties with and is known to have been social with, that he presumably has no good explanation for if it were found out, half way around the world in the middle of a conference that has most if not all of the world's biggest leaders in attendance, on a trip that would have been planned months in advance, and where the president's time would have been laid out to the second.

Utterly preposterous. How many people would have to have been in on this? Too many to hide it, that's how many.

Last edited by Fiddle Peghead; 07-16-2019 at 06:26 PM.
  #235  
Old 07-16-2019, 11:47 PM
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Maybe you're joking, or not, I don't know. But I am not ignoring anything. It is preposterous that Trump would be so stupid as to meet with a known sex offender that he has ties with and is known to have been social with, that he presumably has no good explanation for if it were found out, half way around the world in the middle of a conference that has most if not all of the world's biggest leaders in attendance, on a trip that would have been planned months in advance, and where the president's time would have been laid out to the second.

Utterly preposterous. How many people would have to have been in on this? Too many to hide it, that's how many.
I commend you for your anti-conspiracy instincts, and it is probably more likely that he only met with Barrack and that Epstein's presence in Paris was happenstance. That said, though, you are basically describing exactly the sort of thing that the Secret Service is famous for. They specialize in sneaking people in and out of the White House, hotels, or wherever it is the President usually would be, to go meet with a mistress, party with some prostitutes, purchase some heroin, or whatever it might be, and ensure that no one beyond the agents involved are ever aware of that event and none of them will ever spill those beans.

Using the example of a mistress, certainly Trump has taken off time to go meet with a few of his special ladies while in office, having the secret service spirit him across whatever city he's in to whatever her hotel room might be, without anyone - not hotel staff, not nobody - being aware that it was happening; no reporting in the press, no rumors that it's going on.

I don't know how they accomplish that but, as said, it is the sort of thing that the Special Service has had over a century figuring out how to pull off and they genuinely do seem to be amazing at it.

If Trump's sex life is completely under wrap, it's fair to say that he could figure out how to get into the same room as two men with powerful connections to hold a clandestine meeting.

There's no question that he's met with George Nader. Epstein is worse but, so far as a Secret Service agent is concerned, working with shady figures that have funky connections to other foreign leaders, operate as CIA sources, etc. is not uncommon. Maybe one of them would break and leak rumor if Trump tried diddling an 8 year old right in front of them but, so far as I understand what they do, setting up a meeting between the President and an unsavory figure and doing it in a way where there's no hint of that event having ever occurred is exactly their task and they're very good at it.

By no means is that evidence that Trump has met with Epstein. But I don't think that your objection is a real one.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 07-16-2019 at 11:49 PM.
  #236  
Old 07-16-2019, 11:57 PM
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Maybe you're joking, or not, I don't know. But I am not ignoring anything. It is preposterous that Trump would be so stupid as to meet with a known sex offender that he has ties with and is known to have been social with, that he presumably has no good explanation for if it were found out, half way around the world in the middle of a conference that has most if not all of the world's biggest leaders in attendance, on a trip that would have been planned months in advance, and where the president's time would have been laid out to the second.

Utterly preposterous. How many people would have to have been in on this? Too many to hide it, that's how many.
Trump's time isn't laid out to the second. He's a spoiled lazy toddler. He spends six hours a day watching FOXNews.

Not that I'm thinking it happened, but I'm pretty sure they schedule like an hour or two a day of actual work.
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Old 07-17-2019, 02:09 AM
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The affair has hit an unexpected target of opportunity: former Israeli Prime Minister (and Bibi Netanyahu's nemesis) Ehud Barak, who's in the middle of an attempted political comeback. Israeli media is in an uproar.

Strange days indeed.

Last edited by Alessan; 07-17-2019 at 02:10 AM.
  #238  
Old 07-17-2019, 02:39 AM
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The affair has hit an unexpected target of opportunity: former Israeli Prime Minister (and Bibi Netanyahu's nemesis) Ehud Barak, who's in the middle of an attempted political comeback. Israeli media is in an uproar.

Strange days indeed.
I'd vote that Israel should try looking for an option 3.
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Old 07-17-2019, 03:04 AM
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You don't have to convince me.
  #240  
Old 07-17-2019, 04:01 AM
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You don't have to convince me.
After 5 minutes of Googling, I'll throw my hat in for Abraham Neyman. Give the guy a background check and if he passes a corruption sniff, give it to him.

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  #241  
Old 07-17-2019, 05:43 AM
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The affair has hit an unexpected target of opportunity: former Israeli Prime Minister (and Bibi Netanyahu's nemesis) Ehud Barak, who's in the middle of an attempted political comeback. Israeli media is in an uproar.

Strange days indeed.

Yikes. So now you guys get to choose between a guy who eats babies and another who merely fucks them ? And I thought my political landscape was screwy...
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  #242  
Old 07-17-2019, 07:48 AM
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I commend you for your anti-conspiracy instincts, and it is probably more likely that he only met with Barrack and that Epstein's presence in Paris was happenstance.
Nah, there's no evidence he met with Barrack either.
Quote:
That said, though, you are basically describing exactly the sort of thing that the Secret Service is famous for. They specialize in sneaking people in and out of the White House, hotels, or wherever it is the President usually would be, to go meet with a mistress, party with some prostitutes, purchase some heroin, or whatever it might be, and ensure that no one beyond the agents involved are ever aware of that event and none of them will ever spill those beans.

Using the example of a mistress, certainly Trump has taken off time to go meet with a few of his special ladies while in office, having the secret service spirit him across whatever city he's in to whatever her hotel room might be, without anyone - not hotel staff, not nobody - being aware that it was happening; no reporting in the press, no rumors that it's going on.
Do you have any evidence of any of these claims, especially about Trump? In any case, let's assume the Secret Service does indeed do all these things, and it completely refutes my original statement about the Secret Service. Fine. Do you have any actual evidence that Trump met with Epstein during the conference, or any other time since he became president? Otherwise, this is just conspiracy, if you will excuse me, nonsense.

Quote:
There's no question that he's met with George Nader. Epstein is worse but, so far as a Secret Service agent is concerned, working with shady figures that have funky connections to other foreign leaders, operate as CIA sources, etc. is not uncommon. Maybe one of them would break and leak rumor if Trump tried diddling an 8 year old right in front of them but, so far as I understand what they do, setting up a meeting between the President and an unsavory figure and doing it in a way where there's no hint of that event having ever occurred is exactly their task and they're very good at it.
So? Who cares about George Nader and what does he have to do with Epstein?
Quote:
By no means is that evidence that Trump has met with Epstein. But I don't think that your objection is a real one.
My objection is indeed a real one, and will be until you supply evidence of any of your conspiracy claims.
  #243  
Old 07-17-2019, 07:50 AM
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Trump's time isn't laid out to the second. He's a spoiled lazy toddler. He spends six hours a day watching FOXNews.

Not that I'm thinking it happened, but I'm pretty sure they schedule like an hour or two a day of actual work.
Oh believe me, I am quite sure that Trump isn't actually doing anything during those all those seconds, but somebody knows where he is every second of the day.
  #244  
Old 07-17-2019, 08:22 AM
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Nah, there's no evidence he met with Barrack either.
There isn't. But the odds are good that he met with someone and whoever it was, was secret, and wasn't part of the French government.

The only other real alternative is that he wanted to sit in and take a nap rather than go out in the bad weather.

Either he was lazy or a crook. Neither is inconceivable. Even if on November 10th he didn't do something criminal or nefarious and it's just happenstance that he was well placed to do so, there's still the other 364 days of the year. He's certainly met with Barrack and done compromising things for him.

With Epstein, it's harder to say.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 07-17-2019 at 08:23 AM.
  #245  
Old 07-17-2019, 08:27 AM
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This is strange.

I’ve read several mainstream media articles about Epstein’s little black book. Most of them, including this one, mention an extensive Bill Clinton entry with 21 numbers.

http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/...aintances.html

But I’ve thumbed through the entire 92 page book several times, including twice just now, and I do not see any entry for Bill or Hillary Clinton. Nothing. Nada. Zip. Am I blind or is the entire news media just echoing instead of fact checking?
  #246  
Old 07-17-2019, 08:33 AM
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Utterly preposterous.
One might fill a book -- in fact, several people have -- with Trumpy behavior that anyone in the BeforeTime (i.e. three years ago) would have dismissed as "utterly preposterous" but which nevertheless have in fact occurred.
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  #247  
Old 07-17-2019, 08:43 AM
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Do you have any actual evidence that Trump met with Epstein during the conference, or any other time since he became president? Otherwise, this is just conspiracy, if you will excuse me, nonsense.
Everything is evidence of everything. You exist on Earth and John F. Kennedy existed on Earth before he was assassinated, ergo, I have evidence that you assassinated JFK. If I only had two suspects and the other person had never been on Earth, I would choose you as the culprit.

There is no such thing as proof, only the multiplication of probabilities, when you're trying to establish the facts of some event. What is the probability that this, that, and the other thing would all happen in conjunction under normal circumstances vs. under the hypothesized circumstances that we're inquiring about?

The definition of evidence is not "I have video tape footage of this guy doing this thing". It's, "there was a speck of dirt over here, even though the maid came yesterday and the rest of the floor is spotless." TV has convinced people that "evidence" means "smoking gun". That's not what evidence is.

That Epstein was in Paris at the same time as Trump is evidence that Trump met with him. That Trump's discrete location can't be established at that time is evidence that he met with him. But both of those are different statements from saying, "Trump met with Epstein". Neither I nor anyone else said that Trump met with Epstein.

A conspiracy theory is when you ignore evidence and are dishonest with your evidence, trying to support some hypothesis that you have decided is true, all reality be damned.

Neither I nor anyone else has decided that it is true that Trump met with Epstein, nor have we been dishonest with the evidence.

But, you build a case by forming hypotheses and accumulating evidence that will go towards or against that hypothesis. There's exactly zilch wrong with saying that it hypothetically possible that Trump met with Epstein, nor is it to work to collect and categorize any evidence that you see along the line.

Being dishonest with the evidence, yes, that's bad. Ignoring evidence, that's also bad. But stating hypotheses and aggregating information is good. It's what you do. You don't say, "Well this evidence that I have today, July 17th of 2019 is insufficient to make any real case. As such, clearly this all didn't happen and I'm just a crazy person." If that's how the police worked, they would never catch anyone because they would give up after an hour of taking the case, having decided that even though that drug addict who was pounding on the victim's door at 2am last night sure smells fishy, it's just a theory that he's the guilty party, and the one report that the guy was knocking on the door isn't conclusive.

There's no time limit. You can just keep digging eternally and, so long as the evidence still reasonably allows for the case to be made, there's always the chance that you might find more evidence of sufficient quality that you can start to lock things down. Setting up some arbitrary deadline by which you have to have a smoking gun is stupid and that's not how things work. Trying to shout people down for doing the work of assembling evidence and candidly discussing its provenance and quality because the current state of the evidence is not sufficient to make the case isn't conspiracy theory. That's just you not liking the subject.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 07-17-2019 at 08:46 AM.
  #248  
Old 07-17-2019, 08:45 AM
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There isn't. But the odds are good that he met with someone and whoever it was, was secret, and wasn't part of the French government.

The only other real alternative is that he wanted to sit in and take a nap rather than go out in the bad weather.

Either he was lazy or a crook. Neither is inconceivable. Even if on November 10th he didn't do something criminal or nefarious and it's just happenstance that he was well placed to do so, there's still the other 364 days of the year. He's certainly met with Barrack and done compromising things for him.

With Epstein, it's harder to say.
But why are those the "odds"? Why isn't the second thing, the nap, or even some other simple explanation, more likely?
  #249  
Old 07-17-2019, 08:48 AM
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One might fill a book -- in fact, several people have -- with Trumpy behavior that anyone in the BeforeTime (i.e. three years ago) would have dismissed as "utterly preposterous" but which nevertheless have in fact occurred.
Okay, but this sounds to me like an argument leading to the conclusion that nothing is preposterous when it comes to Trump. Surely there is something.

Last edited by Fiddle Peghead; 07-17-2019 at 08:49 AM. Reason: Spelling
  #250  
Old 07-17-2019, 09:02 AM
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But why are those the "odds"? Why isn't the second thing, the nap, or even some other simple explanation, more likely?
What odds do you want to give? I'm ambivalent.

Continuing my previous post, majority odds are not necessary for proof.

Take for example the possibility that there's a 5% chance that Trump sexually assaulted Stormy Daniels or any other person. But, at the same time, there are 20+ people who have that 5% possibility. If that's the case, because of the 20 in the math, the odds that he has sexually assaulted no one is 36%. Which is to say, there's a 64% chance that he assaulted at least one of them.

(For the record, the FBI has found that the false reporting rate of sexual assault is about 8%. 92% of cases that they have investigated, they established as factual. Trump's actual innocence, at 92% likelihood of guilt, across 20 separate cases, is 0.00<sixteen zeroes>0015%)

Last edited by Sage Rat; 07-17-2019 at 09:06 AM.
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