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Old 07-15-2019, 12:01 PM
Bijou Drains is offline
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Ways to avoid PKs to get a winner in football/soccer


Many people say PKs are bad but there is no other way to get a winner after 120 minutes are played since players are too tired.

What other ideas have been tried to avoid using PKs when the game is tied? A simple suggestion is sudden death - first goal in OT wins the game. Used in the NHL for the playoffs and I think other hockey leagues.

Last edited by Bijou Drains; 07-15-2019 at 12:04 PM.
  #2  
Old 07-15-2019, 12:10 PM
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We pretty much have this thread already in this forum, it’s still on the page:
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...d.php?t=878356
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Old 07-15-2019, 12:14 PM
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What other ideas have been tried to avoid using PKs when the game is tied? A simple suggestion is sudden death - first goal in OT wins the game.
That's been tried as the Golden Goal. Teams played ultra-defensively, so it didn't really work out.

One suggestion is to have the PKs after 90 minutes, and then play the extra-time. At least one side has to really go for it then
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Old 07-15-2019, 12:19 PM
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One suggestion is to have the PKs after 90 minutes, and then play the extra-time. At least one side has to really go for it then
Not clear on what your saying here- do mean 0-0 after 90, Pk's go 5-4, you start extra time with the score 5-4?

I prefer sudden death/golden goal even with its problems- it seems wrong in a sport with goals so hard to come by, you could have extra time and have someone score, and still be tied at the end.

Or I think extra time with 10 v 10 or 9 or 9 the first 15, and 8 v 8 or so the next 15- more space, more likely to score.

To get really out there? Keepers cant use their hands in extra time!

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Old 07-15-2019, 12:19 PM
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That's been tried as the Golden Goal. Teams played ultra-defensively, so it didn't really work out.

One suggestion is to have the PKs after 90 minutes, and then play the extra-time. At least one side has to really go for it then
And for a brief period the Silver Goal. For about a decade back then FIFA really did their best to ruin tournament football.
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Old 07-15-2019, 12:26 PM
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you have a sport where it's very hard to score and then you decide a game by a method where it's very easy to score? Not very logical to put it nicely.
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Old 07-15-2019, 12:34 PM
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you have a sport where it's very hard to score and then you decide a game by a method where it's very easy to score? Not very logical to put it nicely.
Well if looking for a method to increase the chance of determining a winner without PK's through normal play, without resorting to stats like who had more shots or more possession, how else could you go about it without changing the basic play in extra time somewhat? The players are exhausted after 90- allowing more subs perhaps?

Tweaking the offside rule has been mentioned as a possibility, but not sure how to best go about that? I think the 1970's NASL at first for the entire game had the offside rule at 35 yards instead of midfield?

If there was an easy answer, if would be in effect by now

Last edited by Helmut Doork; 07-15-2019 at 12:36 PM.
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Old 07-15-2019, 12:45 PM
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Phase one: corner kicks. Both teams send five players to each end zone. Goalies stay put. First player of one team picks a corner, does the corner kick, play continues for ten seconds. Once time runs out, at the other end of the field, first player of other team picks a corner, does the corner kick, play continues for ten seconds. Repeat for second through fifth players of each team. After all ten corner kicks, if tie is broken, game over. Otherwise, the goalies (and no one else) switch ends. Repeat corner kicks for the next set of players. After everyone (except goalies) has taken corner kicks, either tie is broken, or move on to second phase.

Phase two: free kicks. Keep the same five-five-goalie split of each team. First player of one team picks any spot on the field out side the box, free kicks from that spot, play continues for ten seconds. Once time runs out, do same thing at other end of the field. After five free kicks from each team, either tie is broken or goalies only swap ends, and play continues with next set of free kicks. After everyone has take a free kick, either tie is broken, or move on to third phase.

Phase three: penalty kicks. Same as current tie breaker.

The idea behind this set of tie-breakers is that play changes from most like regular play to least like.
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Old 07-15-2019, 12:54 PM
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I think the PK spot is too close. The shot comes so quickly that random luck is a bigger factor than skill. I think they should have the shot be taken farther out so it becomes more a matter of skill rather than a guessing game of which side to go for. A lot of poor kicks can go in if the goalie jumps one way and the ball goes the other. So here's what I would suggest:

- Have several rounds of PK, where each round is closer to the goal. First round the kicker can place the ball anywhere along the penalty box (the large box around the goal). If score is tied, ball goes to a spot half way between current PK spot and penalty box for the next round. If it's still tied, then ball is on the regular PK spot for the last round.

When the shot is taken farther away, skill becomes a bigger factor. The kicker has to be more precise and the goalie has more time to actually react. I think something like that would ensure the winner was the team which had more skill versus the team which was better at guessing.
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Old 07-15-2019, 01:53 PM
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Not clear on what your saying here- do mean 0-0 after 90, Pk's go 5-4, you start extra time with the score 5-4?
The idea is that the team that loses on PKs has to win in extra time. The tie-break is decided in advance kind of thing. Who knows if it would work in reality though.
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Old 07-15-2019, 01:56 PM
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I think the best idea is the penalty shoot-out after 90, then the extra time. It seems to offer the best balance of fairness.
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Old 07-15-2019, 02:06 PM
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I like the Korean K-League's version: All tie games settled by PKs after just 90 minutes. No extra periods.
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Old 07-15-2019, 02:08 PM
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But yes, if PKs have to be avoided, then a Golden Goal is the best solution. Unlike American football, in which having the ball first in the (past-era) sudden death OT was a huge advantage, in soccer there is a fair amount of turnovers.
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Old 07-15-2019, 02:19 PM
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But yes, if PKs have to be avoided, then a Golden Goal is the best solution. Unlike American football, in which having the ball first in the (past-era) sudden death OT was a huge advantage, in soccer there is a fair amount of turnovers.
Agree, to go through thirty extra minutes, actually have additional goals scored, and *still* have the chance of a tie score and PK's is madness.
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Old 07-15-2019, 04:00 PM
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But yes, if PKs have to be avoided, then a Golden Goal is the best solution. Unlike American football, in which having the ball first in the (past-era) sudden death OT was a huge advantage, in soccer there is a fair amount of turnovers.
It has been tried, extensively. All it does is encourage defensive play and a general dissatisfaction. The players didn't like it and the fans didn't like it.

Apart from that........yeah, perfect solution.
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Old 07-15-2019, 04:01 PM
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Agree, to go through thirty extra minutes, actually have additional goals scored, and *still* have the chance of a tie score and PK's is madness.
So you'd have the extra time continue indefinitely until there is a goal scored?
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Old 07-15-2019, 04:08 PM
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It has been tried, extensively. All it does is encourage defensive play and a general dissatisfaction. The players didn't like it and the fans didn't like it.

Apart from that........yeah, perfect solution.

No, I also like the golden goal- I know the complaints about it are common and not unique to you, but I don't see it- if you play full extra time, teams can also play defensive to get to PK's. A big club vs a minnow is going to push for goal, golden or not, not wanting to risk the uncertainty of penalties, whereas a minnow is going to play defensive either way, hoping to get to penalties.

It may not result in attractive soccer, but it highly increases the chance the match is settled by goals, not PK's, which is the aim.

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Old 07-15-2019, 04:11 PM
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So you'd have the extra time continue indefinitely until there is a goal scored?
NHL does it that way but they score more goals. Rare to have 1-0 or 0-0 NHL game. And they have around 60 shots per game (30 per team) vs. some soccer games with less than 10 shots .
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Old 07-15-2019, 04:24 PM
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NHL does it that way but they score more goals. Rare to have 1-0 or 0-0 NHL game. And they have around 60 shots per game (30 per team) vs. some soccer games with less than 10 shots .
They also have free substitution, which would seem to be necessary if you're going to allow extra time to just keep going and going until there's a winner.
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Old 07-16-2019, 01:56 AM
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No, I also like the golden goal- I know the complaints about it are common and not unique to you, but I don't see it-
It has been done, it didn't work. It was a good thing to try because it was thought that it would pan out as you suggest. It didn't. Why do you think it would work differently now?
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Old 07-16-2019, 02:04 AM
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They also have free substitution, which would seem to be necessary if you're going to allow extra time to just keep going and going until there's a winner.
Which is my simple idea. I've been touting it for years. Go to SUnday League substitution after 90 minutes. Play 9 v 9 too if you need to.


By the way...just to show the disrespect Soccer got in the USA when i was a teen: In our city we had the first all high school tourney. One day we had to play two games in one day. One poor team had to play THREE FUCKING GAMES in one day.

Can you imagine the shit-fit if they made a gridiron football team play three games in one day??
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Old 07-16-2019, 02:49 AM
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You can't just keep going until someone scores as that could last indefinitely (even with reduced numbers of players, which in itself could descend into farce - more so than PKs, in my view). It's not uncommon for games to finish 0-0 after 90 or even 120 minutes, to carry on for another indefinite period after that would be ridiculous.

It's like democracy as a system of government - it's the worst way, except all the other ways that have been tried.

I do agree that PKs after 90 minutes (with the winner of the shootout gaining one goal) is (the only suggestion) worth a trial.
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Old 07-16-2019, 05:29 AM
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you have a sport where it's very hard to score and then you decide a game by a method where it's very easy to score? Not very logical to put it nicely.
The kicks can't decide it, the game is already over. They're deciding something else at that point.

Strictly speaking, Kicks From The Penalty Mark (KFTPM) aren't soccer.* They look kinda like soccer, what with that goal-frame, the referee, and a soccer ball, but they're not soccer.

For one thing, there's no way to score a goal during KFTPM and you need goal(s) to win a soccer game. KFTPM can not decide the winner of a match because if a match goes to KFTPM that means it's already ended in a draw after 120 minutes. Game over, final result: 0-0, or 2-2 or whatever. A draw.

But in a knockout competition (like the World Cup, e.g.) there has to be a way to determine which of the two teams that drew will advance in the competition (or win it all if it's the championship match).

Now, it used to be they would draw lots to determine who advanced. Other times I believe they simply re-played the match on a different day. At some point it was changed to KFTPM. I like the kicks best, even though it's not soccer.




*They are not even Penalty Kicks. PKs can only happen during the actual game, not afterward. That's why the above are called Kicks from the Penalty Mark, not Penalty Kicks... I wasn't just being pedantic. I believe if people learn the correct terms it can help them better understand the concepts behind the terms.

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Old 07-16-2019, 05:41 AM
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I think the best idea is the penalty shoot-out after 90, then the extra time. It seems to offer the best balance of fairness.
As I've said in the many other threads about this Uniquely American* concern, I also believe the kicks after 90 thing is the best option for replacing KFTPM.





*Full disclosure: I am 100% American.
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Old 07-16-2019, 10:24 AM
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kicks after 90 or 120 is tantamount to settling a tied basketball game with best of five free throws.
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Old 07-16-2019, 11:55 AM
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kicks after 90 or 120 is tantamount to settling a tied basketball game with best of five free throws.
No point in comparing basketball to football. The high-scoring nature of the former means that ties are easily broken or avoided under normal play.
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Old 07-16-2019, 12:20 PM
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Granted that the kicks (whatever you call them) aren't Real Soccer, but they're still a heck of a lot closer to Real Soccer than coin-flips are.
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Old 07-16-2019, 12:28 PM
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By the way...just to show the disrespect Soccer got in the USA when i was a teen: In our city we had the first all high school tourney. One day we had to play two games in one day. One poor team had to play THREE FUCKING GAMES in one day.

Can you imagine the shit-fit if they made a gridiron football team play three games in one day??
I played soccer in high school and it can physically wear you out, and can be painful. I had injuries, I even broke a toe once in practice. Itís not table tennis.

But you canít compare it to gridiron football. In soccer you run around somewhat, you might get pulled muscles, occasionally youíll collid with something or someone. Football is full-on contact, itís just shy of hand-to-hand combat. You might literally kill people asking them to play 3 games in a day. Thatís not a respect thing, itís a safety thing.

Baseball though, I could see 3 games in a day. (As long as youíre not pitching 27 innings.)
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Old 07-16-2019, 12:29 PM
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Sudden-death extra time with no goalies would make for frenetic, hectic soccer......but would probably give an unfair advantage to the team that had possession of the ball first.
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Old 07-16-2019, 12:31 PM
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It has been tried, extensively. All it does is encourage defensive play and a general dissatisfaction. The players didn't like it and the fans didn't like it.

Apart from that........yeah, perfect solution.
I would have thought it would have encouraged the exact opposite; full-on offensive aggression.
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Old 07-16-2019, 12:44 PM
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What about some sort of situation like 2 forwards against the goalie, but with some restrictions to make it competitive. For example, kick shots can only be taken outside the penalty box. Within the box, a player can only use their body above the waist. If a player touches the ball with their foot within the box, the ball has to go outside the box before a shot can be taken. Something like that would have the two forwards either trying to drill it in from outside the box, or come up with some sort of trick play to get a header in.
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Old 07-16-2019, 01:43 PM
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I want 10-minute overtime periods, no sudden death. Every 10 minute period that ends without a winner, each side loses a player. OT1, full 11-on-11. OT2, 10-on-10. OT3, 9-on-9, and so on, all the way down to 3-on-3. If you somehow can't get a winner out of all that, PKs at that point seem much less unfair.

.

Last edited by DCnDC; 07-16-2019 at 01:45 PM.
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Old 07-16-2019, 02:59 PM
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I want 10-minute overtime periods, no sudden death. Every 10 minute period that ends without a winner, each side loses a player. OT1, full 11-on-11. OT2, 10-on-10. OT3, 9-on-9, and so on, all the way down to 3-on-3. If you somehow can't get a winner out of all that, PKs at that point seem much less unfair.

.
Sounds bloodthirsty, and youíd probably have to hold matches on floating platforms in international waters to avoid law enforcement interference, but I support it.
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Old 07-16-2019, 03:26 PM
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a way to reduce ties is to increase offense but they seem to have no interest in that.
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Old 07-16-2019, 03:31 PM
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You can't just keep going until someone scores as that could last indefinitely (even with reduced numbers of players, which in itself could descend into farce - more so than PKs, in my view). It's not uncommon for games to finish 0-0 after 90 or even 120 minutes, to carry on for another indefinite period after that would be ridiculous.
This may be a cultural thing, for all I know, but when a winner is required all four of our major professional sports leagues keep playing until someone wins. This is less a concern with basketball or football, but both baseball games and hockey games can go on for truly staggering amounts of time.

Thus, you end up with things like this:
Quote:
1936: Mud Bruneteau scores at 16:30 of the sixth overtime to give the Detroit Red Wings a 1-0 win against the Montreal Maroons at the Forum in what remains the longest game in NHL history.

The Red Wings and Maroons play the equivalent of nearly three full games.

<snip>

Though shots on goal aren't an official NHL statistic, Red Wings goalie Normie Smith, who loses 12 pounds of body weight during the game, reportedly makes 92 saves.
And this:
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The longest American League game, and tied for the longest major league game by innings which ended with one team winning, was a 7Ė6 victory by the Chicago White Sox over the Milwaukee Brewers in 25 innings, at Comiskey Park in Chicago in 1984. The game began at 7:30 p.m. on May 8, 1984, and after scoring early runs both teams scored twice in the 8th inning; but the game was suspended after 17 innings with the score tied 3Ė3 due to a league curfew rule prohibiting an inning from beginning after 12:59 a.m. The game was continued the following evening, May 9, 1984, and both teams scored three times in the 21st inning to make the score 6Ė6; finally, in the bottom of the 25th, the White Sox' Harold Baines hit a walk-off home run to end the contest. Tom Seaver was the winning pitcher in relief. A regularly scheduled game followed, meaning both nights saw 17 innings played; Seaver also started, and won, the second game. The official time of the entire 25-inning game was 8 hours, 6 minutes, also a major league record.
Coincidentally, this also comes out as close to three full regulation games in length.
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Old 07-16-2019, 03:34 PM
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I want 10-minute overtime periods, no sudden death. Every 10 minute period that ends without a winner, each side loses a player. OT1, full 11-on-11. OT2, 10-on-10. OT3, 9-on-9, and so on, all the way down to 3-on-3. If you somehow can't get a winner out of all that, PKs at that point seem much less unfair.

.
I like this
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Old 07-16-2019, 03:50 PM
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the NHL had regular season ties until 2005. They played a 5 minute OT but they could still end up in a tie . College FB had ties until the 90s. So for a long time those 2 sports were OK with ties. (the NFL can have ties now but they are not common. )
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Old 07-16-2019, 04:17 PM
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Sure. And association football/soccer also has ties, of course.

What I mean is that when a winner must be determined, association football uses extra time and then PKs, while MLB/NFL/NHL/NBA all keep playing extra time with something analogous either to a golden goal (NFL1, NHL) or to a silver goal (MLB, NBA), but without restrictions on the amount of extra time required.

1 More or less. NFL overtime rules are slightly more complicated essentially because there are multiple ways to score.
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Old 07-16-2019, 04:22 PM
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until 2018 the US Open golf had an additional 18 holes of golf to break a tie. They played the extra round the next day. Now they use 2 holes total score to break a tie.

The world cup could continue a tie championship game the next day when players are rested but I think the odds of that being tried are close to 0.
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Old 07-16-2019, 04:32 PM
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until 2018 the US Open golf had an additional 18 holes of golf to break a tie. They played the extra round the next day. Now they use 2 holes total score to break a tie.

The world cup could continue a tie championship game the next day when players are rested but I think the odds of that being tried are close to 0.
Shockingly to me, UK soccer cup finals in the early 20th had full game replays if the final ended tied:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1911%E2%80%9312_FA_Cup

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Old 07-16-2019, 07:08 PM
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Shockingly to me, UK soccer cup finals in the early 20th had full game replays if the final ended tied:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1911%E2%80%9312_FA_Cup
Actually, they had an FA cup final replay as recently as 1993. The rules were changed for Finals and Semi-final draws to be decided by extra-time and penalties in 1999. All earlier rounds still have replays.
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Old 07-17-2019, 12:24 AM
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Granted that the kicks (whatever you call them) aren't Real Soccer, but they're still a heck of a lot closer to Real Soccer than coin-flips are.
Yes. I also prefer KFTPM to a coin-flip or some of the other dubious suggestions.
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Old 07-17-2019, 12:30 AM
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I like this
In a real-life Hunger Games or Running Man kind of way, yeah. I dig it. Next big reality show, for sure!
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Old 07-17-2019, 02:35 AM
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I would have thought it would have encouraged the exact opposite; full-on offensive aggression.
TPTB at the time thought the same; it didn't turn out that way. Which is why you will have to forgive the frustration among some of us who see this suggested every fucking year as if it were a wonderful solution. Nothing has changed to suggest the outcome would be any different if it were tried again.

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Sudden-death extra time with no goalies would make for frenetic, hectic soccer......but would probably give an unfair advantage to the team that had possession of the ball first.
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What about some sort of situation like 2 forwards against the goalie, but with some restrictions to make it competitive. For example, kick shots can only be taken outside the penalty box. Within the box, a player can only use their body above the waist. If a player touches the ball with their foot within the box, the ball has to go outside the box before a shot can be taken. Something like that would have the two forwards either trying to drill it in from outside the box, or come up with some sort of trick play to get a header in.
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I want 10-minute overtime periods, no sudden death. Every 10 minute period that ends without a winner, each side loses a player. OT1, full 11-on-11. OT2, 10-on-10. OT3, 9-on-9, and so on, all the way down to 3-on-3. If you somehow can't get a winner out of all that, PKs at that point seem much less unfair.
If the main complaint against KFTPM is that it isn't like normal football, I don't think any of these suggestions address that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bijou Drains View Post
a way to reduce ties is to increase offense but they seem to have no interest in that.
Happy to see new proposals on this - have you got any? With the emphasis on "new", i.e. not making the goals bigger or removing the offside rule.

Quote:
Originally Posted by g8rguy View Post
This may be a cultural thing, for all I know, but when a winner is required all four of our major professional sports leagues keep playing until someone wins. This is less a concern with basketball or football, but both baseball games and hockey games can go on for truly staggering amounts of time.

Thus, you end up with things like this:


And this:

Coincidentally, this also comes out as close to three full regulation games in length.
This is exactly what TPTB want to avoid. The only game of baseball I have been to was tied after 9 innings. We had to leave during the 10th inning (just when the game was getting exciting) as it was getting late. How many people were in the stands at 1am for that longest game? How many were able to come back the next day to see its conclusion? It's not so bad for a regular season game where there is time in the schedule to catch up, but at the end of a long tournament like a World Cup, it's just way to disruptive to countenance any system that extends play for more than an hour or so beyond the expected finish time.
  #45  
Old 07-17-2019, 08:38 AM
Bijou Drains is offline
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baseball games that go very late into the night are rare. In the past they would stop play and resume the game the next day if the 2 teams were playing the next day - before the scheduled game that day. I don't know if they still do that .
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