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  #251  
Old 07-27-2019, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
And pay the receptionist on the way out.

And here's the problem. Incels, and it appears you, seem to have trouble seeing women as people with brains, feelings and emotions. They see women as breasts and vaginas. These women are supposed to feel so grateful about being objectivized that they'll give the incels whatever they want.
I think most of us would not be happy with even a very realistic sex robot, since a real relationship is about a lot more than sex.
Therapists who are legal and who don't screw their clients could help incels with this if they wanted to be helped.
You've also got evolutionary psychology (not Social Darwinism) all wrong. If a guy refuses to reproduce because the women he wants rejects him, he is not successful in evolutionary terms. He's giving himself a non-violent long term Darwin Award. Well deserved.
I worked in a field famous for having lots of people on the autism spectrum. Almost all of us managed to find partners and reproduce. So don't use that as an excuse.
You misunderstand what I mean by sex dolls. I don't mean artificial vaginas. We have those already. I said 50 years because I mean a walking, talking robotic person that can talk to you about your day and sit with you on the couch to watch a movie together and then have sex and sleep with. That's a long way off. But as I see it it's the only permanent solution if you recognize that hypergamy does seem to exist and some men will always get cut out at the bottom. Even some women may be getting cut out and want this too.

As another example, take India and China:

"Men outnumber women by 70 million in China and India. The consequences of having too many men, now coming of age, are far-reaching..."

https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/04/...-too-many-men/

Unless women start taking on two husbands/boyfriends at a time over there, there's absolutely no amount of working on yourself that can solve that problem.

By definition even in a 1:1 pairing you will end up with 70 million men left over, some of whom may be happy being alone but a large percent may also be incel.

Last edited by TheFuture; 07-27-2019 at 02:46 PM.
  #252  
Old 07-27-2019, 02:46 PM
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The world will always have ugly jobs to be done. The capitalist solution in general is to compensate people according to supply and demand, so the fewer people willing or able to do a job, the higher the pay scale is to compensate. It makes sense here as much as anywhere else.
Now your argument boils down to women must supply sex to men, but we'll pay them. Or the government will, because it's a basic need.

You take an awfully long time to make a ridiculous, yet horrendous, argument.
  #253  
Old 07-27-2019, 02:47 PM
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Then what standard do you use for allowing people to make decisions if they're not allowed to rationalize their own circumstances how they choose to? The government rationalizes for you?

Nonsense. All I'm saying is, just because a person can rationalize or even justify their oppression doesn't mean it's not oppression. And taking them at their word is naive at best, cynically exploitative at more realistic.
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  #254  
Old 07-27-2019, 02:47 PM
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Then what standard do you use for allowing people to make decisions if they're not allowed to rationalize their own circumstances how they choose to? The government rationalizes for you? Should the government rationalize all those men out of back-breaking work too? Or that's cool because they have good tunes to listen to? Or rationalize people out of having to clean up bloody remains at crime scenes? Or rationalize people out of working in sewers?

The world will always have ugly jobs to be done. The capitalist solution in general is to compensate people according to supply and demand, so the fewer people willing or able to do a job, the higher the pay scale is to compensate. It makes sense here as much as anywhere else.

Prostitution already has its own capitalist equilibrium where the payscale is established for average male clients accordingly. It's just on the blackmarket now, socially stigmatized, and there's no real niche to it like what that sex worker was describing that might given incel men the kind of feeling for connection or ongoing relationship they might want.
Let's roll with your analogy. So everyone must obey market forces. Supply and demand. Train for the skill set in demand by the economy. Adjust and improve to compete. But not incels. Because, reasons?
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  #255  
Old 07-27-2019, 02:51 PM
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Now your argument boils down to women must supply sex to men, but we'll pay them. Or the government will, because it's a basic need.

You take an awfully long time to make a ridiculous, yet horrendous, argument.
I didn't say that at all. Prostitution is legal in many countries and what I described is already happening for example with that sex worker I linked. Why is that horrendous?

What does "need" even mean? I think you could say sex, relationships, and love are important. In terms of happiness, some people probably do need to experience them to be happy. Some people probably don't need them. In terms of survival, most people would not need these things to survive, but some people might blow their brains out over not having them.

I don't think the word "need" has anything to do with it.
  #256  
Old 07-27-2019, 02:52 PM
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Let's roll with your analogy. So everyone must obey market forces. Supply and demand. Train for the skill set in demand by the economy. Adjust and improve to compete. But not incels. Because, reasons?
I do believe incels are subject to the same market forces as everyone else. I am saying we could add new market forces like legalized sex therapy to help balance the forces.
  #257  
Old 07-27-2019, 02:53 PM
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An idea, for TheFuture...

It's Saturday. Turn off the electronica, get dressed, and go outside. "Outside" outside, the mall "outside", wherever.

Your assignment, should you choose to accept it: As you are walking, catch five (5) "acceptable" women in the eye, nod, smile, and walk on. Say nothing. Make note of what they do.

I don't care what you do after this, but at least you're out of the house, making the *slightest* effort at communicating, positively, with women. It's a start.

Or, again, you can stay here and whine. Your choice.
  #258  
Old 07-27-2019, 02:55 PM
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An idea, for TheFuture...

It's Saturday. Turn off the electronica, get dressed, and go outside. "Outside" outside, the mall "outside", wherever.

Your assignment, should you choose to accept it: As you are walking, catch five (5) "acceptable" women in the eye, nod, smile, and walk on. Say nothing. Make note of what they do.

I don't care what you do after this, but at least you're out of the house, making the *slightest* effort at communicating, positively, with women. It's a start.

Or, again, you can stay here and whine. Your choice.

Dude if I want to get laid I'll just make a Bumble account again. Took me 4 days to get a girl last time. She wasn't the best but she was okay. Or I could do speed dating again. Last time got follow up with two girls from one event. That has nothing to do with anything I'm talking about here.

But I will agree this is wasting my time.

Last edited by TheFuture; 07-27-2019 at 02:57 PM.
  #259  
Old 07-27-2019, 02:58 PM
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Letís start with the crucial questions.

TheFuture, have you 1) read through all the papers and articles that are cited in those claims? 2) Have you evaluated those papers and articles for whether the claims accurately summarize the findings? 3) Have you evaluated the basic worth of those studies to determine whether they adequately can be generalized and applied to the larger population which was not studied? 4) Have you searched out and read the additional work on the subject that may correct, debunk, obsolete, update, or expand upon those studies?

My guess is that the answers are no, no, no, and no.

I once spent several months of my life in the basement of a medical school library, where the old, bound journals were stored, reading through every study ever published on lactose intolerance for a book I was writing. I quickly understood that not all studies were equal, even though every one was in a respected, peer-reviewed journal. Some used too few subjects, or drew them from too narrow a base, or studied them for too short a time. Some applied only to the world of the laboratory and not to the everyday eating experience, in which many foods were mixed together, leading to differing digestive outcomes. Some were not double-blind studies or used statistics that might not have been the most apt. Many studied similar experiences but did so with different approaches so that they could not be combined to make a larger point. I needed to become expert enough as an evaluator to judge which I let through my filter and cited as meaningful information to consumers rather than small data points in the pointillistic tapestry of science and medicine. Evaluating the data is a significant and essential part of science, as important as data collection is.

There is a name for sites that dump a gigantic vat of studies at the reader: the Gish Gallop. RationalWiki describes it.

Quote:
The Gish Gallop is the fallacious debate tactic of drowning your opponent in a flood of individually-weak arguments in order to prevent rebuttal of the whole argument collection without great effort. The Gish Gallop is a conveyor belt-fed version of the on the spot fallacy, as it's unreasonable for anyone to have a well-composed answer immediately available to every argument present in the Gallop. The Gish Gallop is named after creationist Duane Gish, who often abused it.
Not surprising that a creationist perfected this technique. Creationism is absolute nonsense designed to prove a religious belief true, an oxymoronic task. But it is structurally identical to all other conspiracy theories, like moon-hoaxing, birtherism, truthers, and whatever QAnon is inventing today. They are form letters, i.e., identical content with blanks to be filled in with whatever Gish Gallop claims will overwhelm skeptics. All CTs look and read and sound and feel the same. This is why CTers find it so easy to pick up on additional CTs. They are all alike. All real science is also alike, though in a totally different way, and thatís why real scientists can pick up on other real science. Both sides can be identified immediately by anyone who has studied them. That Incel page is a classic example of a Gish Gallop. It can be safely rejected out of hand.

But what of the evidence, you ask? Thereís an answer to that common to every Gish Gallop ploy. You tell us what the evidence is. You go though the Gish Gallop. You go through the four questions I asked at the beginning. You tell us what gets through the filter that is important, you tell us how you know it is accurate and meaningful, you tell us what all the other opposing research says, you tell us why your interpretation is sounder than the other sideís. This is generally known in science as a review study: you review the literature and try to make sense of all those individual dots without forcing them artificially into a pattern. It is very powerful when done correctly. Thatís perhaps why no CTer ever does one.

If all you do is point to a Gish Gallop and tell us we have to read it before you will approve us into your little discussion club, then either you do not understand the most basic necessities of scientific discourse or else or you are disingenuously pushing an ideological point down our throats. There is no third alternative.

You poisoned your own thread by starting with a Gish Gallop. No one who does one can ever be trusted to have a rational debate on a subject. If you're wondering why people here reflexively negate everything you say, it's because they're learned through hundreds of arguments with CTers. All your arguments do is dig you deeper into that hole.
  #260  
Old 07-27-2019, 02:58 PM
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You misunderstand what I mean by sex dolls. I don't mean artificial vaginas. We have those already. I said 50 years because I mean a walking, talking robotic person that can talk to you about your day and sit with you on the couch to watch a movie together and then have sex and sleep with.


Don't date robots!
  #261  
Old 07-27-2019, 03:01 PM
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Let’s start with the crucial questions.

TheFuture, have you 1) read through all the papers and articles that are cited in those claims? 2) Have you evaluated those papers and articles for whether the claims accurately summarize the findings? 3) Have you evaluated the basic worth of those studies to determine whether they adequately can be generalized and applied to the larger population which was not studied? 4) Have you searched out and read the additional work on the subject that may correct, debunk, obsolete, update, or expand upon those studies?

My guess is that the answers are no, no, no, and no.
Okay. I'll keep reading the studies on my own then. The ones I've read so far have been fine though. eg. The height one we already dissected here in this thread and it was fine. I also read the paternity one for example and it just copied the data table directly out. Only one here in the thread has been invalidated (the prison rape one).

Just because something involves a lot of information doesn't mean it's automatically false, does it? That would be equally dumb as assuming it must be right because there is a lot of information.

Last edited by TheFuture; 07-27-2019 at 03:03 PM.
  #262  
Old 07-27-2019, 03:01 PM
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Dude if I want to get laid I'll just make a Bumble account again. Took me 4 days to get a girl last time. She wasn't the best but she was okay. Or I could do speed dating again. Last time got follow up with two girls from one event. That has nothing to do with anything I'm talking about here.

But I will agree this is wasting my time.
... sez the guy who just spent 26 obsessive hours in this very thread...
  #263  
Old 07-27-2019, 03:02 PM
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I do believe incels are subject to the same market forces as everyone else. I am saying we could add new market forces like legalized sex therapy to help balance the forces.
Is the crux of the incel issue that they can't even get hookers to fuck them? Or is it that they are not capable of forming functional relationships with women and your solution is that they'd happily settle for the legalized 60 minute girlfriend experience?
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Last edited by QuickSilver; 07-27-2019 at 03:03 PM.
  #264  
Old 07-27-2019, 03:06 PM
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Just because something involves a lot of information doesn't mean it's automatically false, does it? That would be equally dumb as assuming it must be right because there is a lot of information.
You keep spelling the word "bullshit" wrong.
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  #265  
Old 07-27-2019, 03:08 PM
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... sez the guy who just spent 26 obsessive hours in this very thread...
Sex is not everything in life, at least not for me. I'm not young anymore. I've already done all that when I was. I don't plan for a family, so I don't really care about the usual stuff most people care about. I'm quite happy dating a girl once every few months or so for a bit. I like my independence.

But yes, I have a problem with leaving discussions when I feel like I am being baited constantly in general. I am mildly compulsive. I should probably stay off web forums in general.
  #266  
Old 07-27-2019, 03:10 PM
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You misunderstand what I mean by sex dolls. I don't mean artificial vaginas. We have those already. I said 50 years because I mean a walking, talking robotic person that can talk to you about your day and sit with you on the couch to watch a movie together and then have sex and sleep with. That's a long way off. But as I see it it's the only permanent solution if you recognize that hypergamy does seem to exist and some men will always get cut out at the bottom. Even some women may be getting cut out and want this too.
I took my first AI class nearly 50 years ago, and if you think there will be sexbots with agency in 50 years, I'd make you a bet but I won't be around to collect it.
If a bot had agency, and was not a slave, if the incels act as they act now she'd walk out on him. If not, anyone with any need for a true relationship would not be satisfied.
I've asked you a couple of times about why they don't use prostitutes who are readily available. I'd guess it is because they don't fulfill the need for connection. Neither will a sex therapist, whose job should be getting them to meet real women. (And I'm all in favor of legalization with regulation.)
Quote:
As another example, take India and China:

"Men outnumber women by 70 million in China and India. The consequences of having too many men, now coming of age, are far-reaching..."

https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/04/...-too-many-men/

Unless women start taking on two husbands/boyfriends at a time over there, there's absolutely no amount of working on yourself that can solve that problem.

By definition even in a 1:1 pairing you will end up with 70 million men left over, some of whom may be happy being alone but a large percent may also be incel.
Now that's a real problem. I wonder if the mistress culture in France, say, was the result of so many eligible men getting blown up in WW I.
But it has nothing to do with incel culture in the US, where there is no imbalance. Except for very old women and men, that is. I understand that very old men have it good. My father-in-law had a girlfriend at 100, so this might be right.
  #267  
Old 07-27-2019, 03:12 PM
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You keep spelling the word "bullshit" wrong.
Okay. Let's look at one together. Here's one:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4631383/

Here are the quotes they quoted:

Quotes:

Asian women were half as likely as Asian men to be unpartnered (i.e., 18% versus 35%).
Asian men, but not black or Hispanic men, exhibit significantly lower odds of involvement than white men. Specifically, they have roughly half the odds of current involvement as white men.
We found no evidence that socioeconomic resources or physical characteristics were driving the lower levels of involvement among Asian men. Instead, our findings are consistent with the notion that Asian American men are at the bottom of the racial hierarchy when it comes to the different-sex dating market.
If “Asian cultural values” account for differences in romantic partnership formation, we would have found similar patterns for Asian women as Asian men. In fact, the opposite was true.
A racial hierarchy explanation suggests that Asian American men will be less likely than Asian American women to be partnered, as Asian American men face gendered cultural stereotypes barring them from entry into romantic partnerships.


Where is the bullshit? Seriously? If this is all wrong, I will sleep better at night. So how is it wrong?

Last edited by TheFuture; 07-27-2019 at 03:12 PM.
  #268  
Old 07-27-2019, 03:18 PM
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I took my first AI class nearly 50 years ago, and if you think there will be sexbots with agency in 50 years, I'd make you a bet but I won't be around to collect it.
If a bot had agency, and was not a slave, if the incels act as they act now she'd walk out on him. If not, anyone with any need for a true relationship would not be satisfied.
I've asked you a couple of times about why they don't use prostitutes who are readily available. I'd guess it is because they don't fulfill the need for connection. Neither will a sex therapist, whose job should be getting them to meet real women. (And I'm all in favor of legalization with regulation.)

Now that's a real problem. I wonder if the mistress culture in France, say, was the result of so many eligible men getting blown up in WW I.
But it has nothing to do with incel culture in the US, where there is no imbalance. Except for very old women and men, that is. I understand that very old men have it good. My father-in-law had a girlfriend at 100, so this might be right.
Yes I agree the need for connection is an important part, which is why I was saying I don't think they need just regular slam-bang prostitutes. But rather sex workers who can provide that sense of connection.

As for the west, if there is even a slight degree of female hypergamy which does seem to be backed by the evidence that top level men are having more sex than ever while more of the total men are becoming celibate, that would imply there is an artificial gender imbalance being created. Ie. For every one guy juggling two girls, there is one guy left out. Jordan Petersen has talked about this before in terms of what marriage was - enforced monogamy to a prevent polygamous society. As I said, I don't think there's any way to go back to that, so I think there have to be other solutions.

When do you estimate there could be walking even dumb basically interactional sex robots by? Ie. Just "how was your day" and walking around an apartment or assuming sex positions?
  #269  
Old 07-27-2019, 03:31 PM
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Legalizing prostitution wouldn't really change anything for incels (though I'm still in favor of it, and other proposals to give more rights and dignity to sex workers). Prostitution is still ubiquitous in America and most other places, and unless you're a complete idiot, very easy to utilize without getting in trouble (in my understanding, not my personal experience ). If incels are consumed with anger and bitterness over a lack of sex with women, and nothing else, then it would be trivially easy, with a relatively low risk (or no risk if they take a vacation to Nevada), to hire a prostitute.

Fair, but impractical for many, about Nevada. IDK about the rest as I have not engaged the services of a sex worker (not even a stripper) within the U.S. But the example of Bob Kraft makes me wonder.
  #270  
Old 07-27-2019, 04:12 PM
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Why don't you think sex surrogates should be legal or why don't you think they'd help at least some men?
Okay. I'll state it directly. I don't want my tax dollars paying for your entertainment. But apart from that caveat, bang all the hookers and sex robots you want. It should be totally legal starting today. Science says it's OK. You win.

Does that mean you're done here? I have this sneaking feeling that this pitch doesn't end with legal sex robots and legal prostitution.
  #271  
Old 07-27-2019, 04:17 PM
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Yeah and we can find ways to make people's suffering less. Did you read the Mirror article I linked?

What would be wrong with permitting the existence for example an industry of Sex Therapists like her who enjoy and take pride in her work because it gives people something they can't get otherwise?
Why didn't you just ask this at the outset? It has now, after torturous contortions, become clear that this is what's been on your mind the whole time. Why did you dilly-dally so?
  #272  
Old 07-27-2019, 04:20 PM
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Man, this entire "well, people could change themselves, but it's too hard, so other people should be forced to have sex with them" thing is getting old.
  #273  
Old 07-27-2019, 04:22 PM
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Why didn't you just ask this at the outset? It has now, after torturous contortions, become clear that this is what's been on your mind the whole time. Why did you dilly-dally so?
I'm thinking out loud. Discussion forces you to establish, defend, and solidify your positions. That's why we do it. I proposed my initial thoughts for solutions in the first or second page within a few hours of starting the thread. I was hoping to get some other unbiased opinions first, because sometimes if you bias someone first, they won't give you another idea but rather just stick to that one. It turns out that fear was unfounded since almost no one here is capable of providing any ideas at all on the subject besides "they need to work on themselves" or social Darwinism. Or to claim everything is "bullshit" without actually demonstrating how. Like I said, waste of time except that I suppose it made me reflect more on the subject, and I do now think that is the best temporary solution along with reducing stigma for sex work, reducing societal pressure for sex in the media, and working towards a future where undesirable men can just get a sex robot and be done with it.

Last edited by TheFuture; 07-27-2019 at 04:23 PM.
  #274  
Old 07-27-2019, 04:27 PM
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Okay. I'll state it directly. I don't want my tax dollars paying for your entertainment. But apart from that caveat, bang all the hookers and sex robots you want. It should be totally legal starting today. Science says it's OK. You win.

Does that mean you're done here? I have this sneaking feeling that this pitch doesn't end with legal sex robots and legal prostitution.
I agree. I am in favor of as low taxes as possible. If it were up to me I would cut a lot of social services. I said legalize not subsidize. If you have a better idea post it. This thread is high on personal attacks and low on actual ideas.

Last edited by TheFuture; 07-27-2019 at 04:28 PM.
  #275  
Old 07-27-2019, 05:28 PM
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My advice to incels: if you feel frustrated and pissed off that your looks, height, race, or indeed even your personality, are making it impossible for you to get laid, please try to take that feeling and channel it into a guitar or a drum set. (Not a bass though, as playing the bass properly requires alpha status, so you have no shot, don't even try.) Anyway shred the shit out of your guitar or bash the hell out of that drum kit and keep telling yourself that if you're good enough to get on stage and play in front of an audience, women will want to fuck you even if you're short and have a small dick. Someday you may even be able to play the bass. Please just do this and don't shoot me.
  #276  
Old 07-27-2019, 05:32 PM
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I agree. I am in favor of as low taxes as possible. If it were up to me I would cut a lot of social services. I said legalize not subsidize. If you have a better idea post it.
How about this idea: Prostitution and sex robots should be legalized. Go forth and bang all the hookers and sexbots you want.

Good enough?
  #277  
Old 07-27-2019, 05:37 PM
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Sweet Lazy Jesus. Two different boards in one day.

"But I can't think of any ideas, so I'm demanding that everyone else here come up with them for me and I'm getting quite irate that you all refuse to do it for me!"

Go use one of these as an anal dildo while you ponder your own answers to this mystery and stop getting angry at total strangers for not doing it for you.
  #278  
Old 07-27-2019, 05:55 PM
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Yes I agree the need for connection is an important part, which is why I was saying I don't think they need just regular slam-bang prostitutes. But rather sex workers who can provide that sense of connection.

As for the west, if there is even a slight degree of female hypergamy which does seem to be backed by the evidence that top level men are having more sex than ever while more of the total men are becoming celibate, that would imply there is an artificial gender imbalance being created. Ie. For every one guy juggling two girls, there is one guy left out. Jordan Petersen has talked about this before in terms of what marriage was - enforced monogamy to a prevent polygamous society. As I said, I don't think there's any way to go back to that, so I think there have to be other solutions.

When do you estimate there could be walking even dumb basically interactional sex robots by? Ie. Just "how was your day" and walking around an apartment or assuming sex positions?
There are women keeping several men on a string also, so I think it might balance out a bit.
A sex bot who could have Siri loaded and assume various positions on command is a mechanical engineering problem, but nothing as fundamental as strong AI, so long before 50 years, no doubt.
But here's the thing. I guy who this kind of bot would satisfy is demonstrating exactly the problem I was talking about. Clearly that person wants who fulfills his purely sexual - but not emotional - needs. I'd like to think that no incel would be truly satisfied with this kind of sexbot but perhaps I'm giving them too much credit.
I'm sure that there are men who are convinced that a higher priced prostitute feels for them. That's a good talent for the woman to have. But your therapist is not your friend and your sex therapist is not your real lover.
I'm fine with men banging away at their sex toy or palm or liver or unaware sexbot. But if any of this is what satisfies them in terms of a connection to another person, they have serious emotional problems.
  #279  
Old 07-27-2019, 06:06 PM
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It turns out that fear was unfounded since almost no one here is capable of providing any ideas at all on the subject besides "they need to work on themselves"

A guy goes up to a fancy restaurant. He is refused entrance because he isn't dressed properly, doesn't have a reservation, and a quick credit check shows he can't afford dinner there anyhow.
He stands outside, offended. A friend comes up and hear his sob story.
"There is a good diner down the street. Why not go there?"
"Don't want to, it is beneath me."
"Well, why not save up some money, get some decent clothes, make a reservation and then come back?"
"Don't want to. They should just let me in. All restaurant owners are pigs."
The guy stays outside and starves to death. But first he ate pictures of the food in the restaurant that ran with the reviews. Didn't nourish him, though.
  #280  
Old 07-27-2019, 06:06 PM
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That's more social Darwinism. Again do you believe in social Darwinism across the board? Or just in this area?

A social Darwinist should believe:

- You are not entitled to welfare.
- You are not entitled to health care.
- You are not entitled to housing.
- You are not entitled to job training.
- You are not entitled to education.
- You are not entitled to protection from crime/fire.

ie. Everyone has to survive and accomplish everything on their own merit and no one deserves help with anything.

But in most countries we decided people WERE entitled to those things because it made sense to try to help them and give those things to everyone. Why can't we extend that to love, sex, and relationships and try to make that work?

You also seem to suffer from the same diseased and mentally crippled notion that this means "someone has to get raped". I already said sex robots for example would be a perfect solution. So why would that be a problem? I also suggested therapeutic sex workers like they have in Britain and support groups might help. Why wouldn't that be better than just telling people to suffer until they kill themselves and quit whining about it?

Porn is not even necessarily good for people. Search "depression porn" and you will find lots of people saying porn causes depression. It's been a common subject in the media lately. A lot of guys are trying to quit porn.

But go ahead and tell me how evil I am for saying we ought to try to help these people. Your perspective of just telling them to go jerk off and die in a corner is so much more compassionate.

Sex is welfare?

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Now your argument boils down to women must supply sex to men, but we'll pay them. Or the government will, because it's a basic need.

You take an awfully long time to make a ridiculous, yet horrendous, argument.

It's that personality. And he wonders why women don't want to have sex with him and his ilk.

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Dude if I want to get laid I'll just make a Bumble account again. Took me 4 days to get a girl last time. She wasn't the best but she was okay. Or I could do speed dating again. Last time got follow up with two girls from one event. That has nothing to do with anything I'm talking about here.

But I will agree this is wasting my time.

Didn't somene recently get modded for posting a "find your hooker here" site?

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... sez the guy who just spent 26 obsessive hours in this very thread...



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Sex is not everything in life, at least not for me. I'm not young anymore. I've already done all that when I was. I don't plan for a family, so I don't really care about the usual stuff most people care about. I'm quite happy dating a girl once every few months or so for a bit. I like my independence.

But yes, I have a problem with leaving discussions when I feel like I am being baited constantly in general. I am mildly compulsive. I should probably stay off web forums in general.

Aren't the cops fully aware that "date" isn't an effective code word?
  #281  
Old 07-27-2019, 06:29 PM
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Okay. I'll keep reading the studies on my own then. The ones I've read so far have been fine though. eg. The height one we already dissected here in this thread and it was fine. I also read the paternity one for example and it just copied the data table directly out. Only one here in the thread has been invalidated (the prison rape one).

Just because something involves a lot of information doesn't mean it's automatically false, does it? That would be equally dumb as assuming it must be right because there is a lot of information.
OK, so we've established you don't have even a minimal basic understanding of how science works. That's an increase in our knowledge.
  #282  
Old 07-27-2019, 07:42 PM
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Sweet Lazy Jesus. Two different boards in one day.

"But I can't think of any ideas, so I'm demanding that everyone else here come up with them for me and I'm getting quite irate that you all refuse to do it for me!"

Go use one of these as an anal dildo while you ponder your own answers to this mystery and stop getting angry at total strangers for not doing it for you.
I provided ideas from within 2-3 hours of starting the thread. You are just a troll.
  #283  
Old 07-27-2019, 07:44 PM
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OK, so we've established you don't have even a minimal basic understanding of how science works. That's an increase in our knowledge.
If you understand science so much better than me you just want to insult me, why don't you tell me why the studies are wrong like this one?

https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...&postcount=269

Just trolling as well?
  #284  
Old 07-27-2019, 07:48 PM
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There are women keeping several men on a string also, so I think it might balance out a bit.
A sex bot who could have Siri loaded and assume various positions on command is a mechanical engineering problem, but nothing as fundamental as strong AI, so long before 50 years, no doubt.
But here's the thing. I guy who this kind of bot would satisfy is demonstrating exactly the problem I was talking about. Clearly that person wants who fulfills his purely sexual - but not emotional - needs. I'd like to think that no incel would be truly satisfied with this kind of sexbot but perhaps I'm giving them too much credit.
I'm sure that there are men who are convinced that a higher priced prostitute feels for them. That's a good talent for the woman to have. But your therapist is not your friend and your sex therapist is not your real lover.
I'm fine with men banging away at their sex toy or palm or liver or unaware sexbot. But if any of this is what satisfies them in terms of a connection to another person, they have serious emotional problems.
Well I guess we'll have to wait and see. I don't think it does balance out because the scales show male celibacy is rising much faster than female celibacy, and given that guys are still flooding online dating sites more than women I don't think the men have stopped trying overall.

Again if we are going to become like Japan celibacy and isolation will rise for both genders and then the loneliness will hit everyone. Either we find ways to reconnect as people at that stage or we adopt surrogates.

Thanks for actually taking the subject seriously and providing some discussion. I'm about done here since no one else seems to be capable of it.

Finally, I don't think it's necessary for anything to be 100% fulfilling the same as a relationship to "work". Even if it provides 50% of the feeling of a relationship, maybe that's enough to keep someone happy enough and go on with their life.
  #285  
Old 07-27-2019, 08:12 PM
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Sorry bro, but the sex robots won't want to fuck you either... What happens when they refuse?
  #286  
Old 07-27-2019, 09:06 PM
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I don't think it does balance out because the scales show male celibacy is rising much faster than female celibacy
But not all of that rise is involuntary celibacy, as this article discusses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFuture
and given that guys are still flooding online dating sites more than women
Not much more, though: users of online dating are about 52% male and about 48% female.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFuture
Again if we are going to become like Japan celibacy and isolation will rise for both genders and then the loneliness will hit everyone.
Sounds like we'd get much better results addressing the actual problems underlying disconnection and unhappiness, to wit:

- Stop the bullying of autistic children by other children.

- Teach both boys and girls that women are autonomous individuals just as much as men are, and that nobody has any right to expect that any other individual owes them sex or love or friendship.

- Teach both boys and girls that sexual behavior is a matter of individual choices by consenting adults, and we shouldn't be harassing or denigrating people for making different choices from ours as long as they're not hurting anyone. Slut-shaming, virgin-shaming, and all other picking on people for their sex lives is unhealthy and needs to stop.

- Teach both boys and girls to value non-superficial attributes in a partner. If you think it's embarrassing or humiliating to have a girlfriend who's not beautiful or young, or a boyfriend who's not rich or tall, that's a problem with your attitude, not with your attractiveness level. Fat-shaming, poor-shaming, height-shaming, etc., is just as toxic and counterproductive as slut-shaming and virgin-shaming.

- Teach both boys and girls to recognize and value the many joyful aspects of life that don't involve sex and relationships. Feeling sorry for yourself or resentful of others because of your lack of a mate, when you could instead be enjoying life in all sorts of ways that don't require a mate, is a problem with your attitude, not with society's "failure" to provide you with a mate.

That's the sort of thing we should be doing (which btw has a lot of overlap with what you unreasonably denigrate as "SJW culture wars"), instead of just sitting around wishing for sexbots or inventing ways for society to "provide" unhappy men with better access to sex. Addressing the root causes of the unhappiness rather than the secondary phenomenon of the sexlessness will be better for everybody in the long run.

Of course, even if we (very unrealistically) manage to fix all those problems, it will doubtless still be true that unattractive people, on average, will have more difficulty finding sex partners than attractive people. But at least they won't be constantly stewing in resentment over it and taking it out on other people, and they'll be better equipped to lead a fulfilling life in other respects.

In particular, it will undercut the "misogyny terrorism" attitude prevalent in so much of inceldom. If a bunch of men believe that being hateful and self-destructive and sexist and dangerous will motivate society to try to encourage women to have sex with them in order to make them feel better, then of course those men are incentivized to go on being hateful and self-destructive and sexist and dangerous.

But nobody should be encouraging women to have sex with men who are hateful and self-destructive and sexist and dangerous. Society should be trying to fix the traditional toxic attitudes about sex that end up making people unhappy, sure. But if a person who's unhappy about not having sex chooses to become hateful and self-destructive and sexist and dangerous over it, he's forfeited his claim on other people's consideration. We should save our concern and compassion for the unhappy people who aren't taking out their frustrations on others.
  #287  
Old 07-27-2019, 11:22 PM
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::mic drop::

Phenomenal post, Kimstu.
  #288  
Old 07-27-2019, 11:40 PM
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Thanks! Really cheeses me off how incel apologists are constantly telling us how imperative it is that society Take Action of some kind to relieve the intolerable sexlessness of all these sad (and Potentially Dangerous) young men, and seem not to give a rat's ass about Taking Action to fix any of the societal pathologies that are helping make them sad in the first place.

No, they want to believe that incels' sadness is irrevocably ordained by evolution, but at the same time outrageously unjust and unendurable, so all society can or should do about it is to try to persuade people to have sex with them as a sacrifice for the common good. (And that's when they're not more or less openly advocating some form of forcing people to have sex with incels instead of just persuading them.)
  #289  
Old 07-27-2019, 11:45 PM
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Are they really trying to exert leverage, or just lashing out in nihilistic frustration?
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  #290  
Old 07-27-2019, 11:50 PM
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They're pathetically whining about how hard their lives are and demanding that other people fix it for them instead of changing themselves or their perspectives.

"No, no, no one will have sex with me so you people have to fix this for me!"

Talk to the hand.
  #291  
Old 07-28-2019, 12:06 AM
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Are they really trying to exert leverage, or just lashing out in nihilistic frustration?
Are tantrumming toddlers really trying to get something they want, or just melting down in frustrated anger?

I think the answer in both cases is "Some of each". Sure, some of it is just childish entitlement and lack of self-discipline fueling a rage reaction, but they also genuinely feel that they are owed the thing they want and try to exert pressure to get it. The present OP, for example, doesn't seem to be having a nihilistic frustrated lash-out: he honestly thinks that society should be doing something specifically to facilitate incels' desire for sex, and he's trying to persuade us to agree with him.
  #292  
Old 07-28-2019, 12:15 AM
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TheFuture, have you 1) read through all the papers and articles that are cited in those claims? 2) Have you evaluated those papers and articles for whether the claims accurately summarize the findings? 3) Have you evaluated the basic worth of those studies to determine whether they adequately can be generalized and applied to the larger population which was not studied? 4) Have you searched out and read the additional work on the subject that may correct, debunk, obsolete, update, or expand upon those studies?
Have you (TheFuture) understood that "a trend" does not equal "100% of cases"? No.
Have you understood that "women" aren't something you buy in a supermarket? Apparently, but you wish you could buy women-like tools that would behave exactly as you wish, including switching off.
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  #293  
Old 07-28-2019, 12:25 AM
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There's at least one traditional culture, the Basque, in which many of the traits which are now called "on the spectrum" aren't just viewed as acceptable but desirable; a lot of our customs are based on expectations of things such as obsesiveness, nitpicking, low tolerance for social situations... but women and men have been on a more-equal footing than those in surrounding areas, too (when a whole culture views nitpicking or being obsessive about hobbies as fine things, they're not done only by half that culture). One of the biggest reasons for "Basque endogamy" is simply that any self-respecting Basque woman (i.e., all of us) will refuse to have sex with, much less marry, a guy who expects her to be his servant. Incels want sex serfs, not partners. They want women who are top-shelf in looks, bottom-self in self-respect, and who in the morning prepare breakfast to perfection and silently, already made up and wearing stiletto heels.

No worky.

Last edited by Nava; 07-28-2019 at 12:25 AM.
  #294  
Old 07-28-2019, 12:38 AM
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Are the incels right about everything or not, because I got some math I don't want to do and I was hoping to pass it off.
  #295  
Old 07-28-2019, 12:38 AM
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Well I guess we'll have to wait and see. I don't think it does balance out because the scales show male celibacy is rising much faster than female celibacy, and given that guys are still flooding online dating sites more than women I don't think the men have stopped trying overall.

Again if we are going to become like Japan celibacy and isolation will rise for both genders and then the loneliness will hit everyone. Either we find ways to reconnect as people at that stage or we adopt surrogates.

Thanks for actually taking the subject seriously and providing some discussion. I'm about done here since no one else seems to be capable of it.

Finally, I don't think it's necessary for anything to be 100% fulfilling the same as a relationship to "work". Even if it provides 50% of the feeling of a relationship, maybe that's enough to keep someone happy enough and go on with their life.
Having successfully met someone via online dating I would say that the incels are somewhat correct. If you aren't a doctor hunk, you're going to have a pretty steep hill to climb. But, I think, there's also a strong position for guys who seem fun to hang out with - and, I suspect, most incels haven't noticed that.

But more importantly is the question of "why"?

Ugly and serious guys can successful meet people in real life. The incel view breaks down if you're willing to go to a bar and engage in small chat, and able to come across as "not a creep".

That's the issue is that, on the Internet, all guys are creeps. You immediately have a +10 creep factor hanging around your neck like an albatross and, simply, if you don't have the other raw stats to appeal to a woman then you're done.

This isn't a matter of women being shallow or whatever else, it's that they don't want to get raped or assaulted. If they meet you in person, in a crowded place, and you're able to successfully seem like a reasonable human being who understands how to behave like a human being, you're immediately at -10 creep factor. It's no longer the criteria being measured. But online, women have a fairly justified predisposition to expect that dudes be crazy. I'll even go ahead and throw myself under the bus and admit that, unknowingly and unintentionally, I've been an online creep. It takes experience and practice hanging out with other human beings in real life to figure out how to behave appropriately and the Internet teaches you a different set of rules of behavior from what works in person.

Part of that is accepting that you're an idiot and that probably you're doing things wrong without being aware of it. And the other part is abandoning the internet and finding hobbies that women do and trying to be clear up front and in advance, should you befriend any of them, that you're a moron who never learned to human, and to ask them to slap you if you do something stupid and set you straight.

If you want to meet someone, first make sure that you mean that in the sense that you want to have a wholesome, genuine, open, honest, and equal relationship and secondly find and embrace humility. Accept that you're going to look like an idiot and be horribly embarrassed in some situations, but so it goes.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 07-28-2019 at 12:41 AM.
  #296  
Old 07-28-2019, 01:36 AM
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Well I guess we'll have to wait and see. I don't think it does balance out because the scales show male celibacy is rising much faster than female celibacy, and given that guys are still flooding online dating sites more than women I don't think the men have stopped trying overall.

Again if we are going to become like Japan celibacy and isolation will rise for both genders and then the loneliness will hit everyone. Either we find ways to reconnect as people at that stage or we adopt surrogates.

Thanks for actually taking the subject seriously and providing some discussion. I'm about done here since no one else seems to be capable of it.

Finally, I don't think it's necessary for anything to be 100% fulfilling the same as a relationship to "work". Even if it provides 50% of the feeling of a relationship, maybe that's enough to keep someone happy enough and go on with their life.
I agree with your last paragraph. There is no relationship that is 100% fulfilling, and I've been happily married for 41 years. I wouldn't put a number on it, but way above 50%. But even 50% is a lot better than nothing.
Do you agree that a solution to the incel "problem" would be for them to approach women differently?
I went to college in the real hotbed of celibacy in Cambridge MA. I knew plenty of guys who had zero dates in 4 years. None of them blamed women for this, none of them were misogynist. They pretty much all eventually got married. Now some of them might have thought it, but the rest of us wouldn't respond too well to this attitude. This was long before the Internet and the echo chamber anyone can find to magnify their worst characteristics.
I only knew one volcel - he became a priest - but no one would probably have called themselves incels which implies someone is forcing that status on you.
So, do you agree or disagree that incels would be much better off if they stopped thinking about paying or building someone to have an emotional relationship with them, and stopped thinking that women are somehow obligate to have an emotional relationship with them, and get out there and do the work involved in having an emotional relationship, the way the rest of us do.
  #297  
Old 07-28-2019, 01:52 AM
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The present OP, for example, doesn't seem to be having a nihilistic frustrated lash-out: he honestly thinks that society should be doing something specifically to facilitate incels' desire for sex, and he's trying to persuade us to agree with him.
But even he doesn't think the incels' problem is lack of sex, since he rejects prostitution as an answer. The sex therapist he does see as an answer is a simulacrom of a real relationship, with the therapist being paid to act as if she was emotionally invested in the person. Plus sex. I got that the benefit he saw in this was the fake relationship, not that the therapist might push the incel into real relationships. Which a non-sex therapist could do also. Probably better.
  #298  
Old 07-28-2019, 08:10 AM
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Since when is Straight Dope's ideology anything but the pursuit of truth?
My, you sure seem to know a lot about us for someone who joined this month...
  #299  
Old 07-28-2019, 08:19 AM
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The sex therapist he does see as an answer is a simulacrom of a real relationship, with the therapist being paid to act as if she was emotionally invested in the person. Plus sex.
What does he think an expensive whore does, jump on the john's cock?
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  #300  
Old 07-28-2019, 08:32 AM
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My, you sure seem to know a lot about us for someone who joined this month...
Ain't that suspicious?

An option not suggested is that the incels give bisexuality a try. It doubles the dating pool (of people to shut them down). "Oh, but I'm not into guys," they might say, but they indulge in too many online circle jerks to convince me.
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