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  #51  
Old 08-12-2019, 01:19 AM
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Pretty soon, Texas Man will rival Florida Man for the top news spots.
Nah, Texas is predictable and screwed up. Florida is super crazy, like driving a riding lawnmower off an overpass while dressed like a giant chicken. Florida stories have that extra something.
  #52  
Old 08-12-2019, 06:30 AM
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I feel like this is a good litmus test. Anyone who can look at this and say, "Yep, not racist" or seriously try to defend it should be given the approximate treatment present in this XKCD comic, if not far, far worse.
  #53  
Old 08-12-2019, 07:14 AM
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I feel like this is a good litmus test. Anyone who can look at this and say, "Yep, not racist" or seriously try to defend it should be given the approximate treatment present in this XKCD comic, if not far, far worse.

Excellent! Actually, I really wish certain groups in the United States would also exercise their second amendment rights. That would be awesome when some jackass shows up at a mosque during Friday prayers with their weapon and sees about forty armed (open carry on private property) people to "welcome" them.

Come to think of it, a year or few back, an American Muslim put it out on social media that he'd be doing just that. The bigots had the best meltdown.

It would've been awesome if the driver in my link upthread had been legally carrying a weapon and then when the jackass on the horse raced towards him and reached like he was reaching for a weapon, yelling "This is a Texas road", the driver whipped out his weapon and said, "Yep, and this here's a Texas weapon. Ain't that nice?"
  #54  
Old 08-12-2019, 03:59 PM
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'cause what we really need is more people pointing guns at each other.
  #55  
Old 08-12-2019, 05:46 PM
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'cause what we really need is more people pointing guns at each other.

Yeah. I know. But fantasies are really all that logical in the first place. I just like the vision of the villains getting their comeuppance.
  #56  
Old 08-13-2019, 02:00 PM
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Stupid? Yes. But the first headline I saw (Slate, I think) read "Cops on horseback drag man through Texas town". I can't find the article now but I'm certain the word "drag" was in the headline. I envisioned a man on his back or knees being, you know, dragged. The picture I saw showed the guy walking with the officers and the rope appeared slack. There was certainly no dragging going on. Maybe there are other pictures I didn't see but those kind of inflammatory headlines are irresponsible, at best. Maybe racist, maybe not. I don't the have ability to tell by a simple snapshot. Apparently, many here do. Just because it reminds people of runaway slaves being captured doesn't make it inherently racist. The way I see it, in order to be considered racist there must be some evidence that a white suspect would not have been treated in the same manner. I fail to see any such evidence. Flamesuit is on. Now I'll go look at the XKCD comic to see what fate awaits me.
  #57  
Old 08-13-2019, 02:03 PM
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... The way I see it, in order to be considered racist there must be some evidence that a white suspect would not have been treated in the same manner. I fail to see any such evidence. ..
So you've looked and haven't found such evidence? Or you haven't looked and haven't found such evidence?
  #58  
Old 08-14-2019, 10:44 AM
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The way I see it, in order to be considered racist there must be some evidence that a white suspect would not have been treated in the same manner. I fail to see any such evidence. Flamesuit is on. Now I'll go look at the XKCD comic to see what fate awaits me.
That's a bad metric, because, in most cases, you will not have a white control to test it against. There won't be a nearly identical situation with the same people but a white person in place of the black person. The only practical way to test if something is racist is simply whether or not it is consistent with other racist acts, and possibly to check if the people involved have a history of racism.

We have white cops reducing the dignity of a black prisoner, treating him like an animal. You have stated that it looks consistent with how lynchings were handled. There has also been no apology that what they did might seem racist. That is the evidence.

Your metric is one that is unlikely to be met. With everything else in life, we look for patterns, and the more patterns we see that coincide, the more sure we are. We can't expect there to be a scientific control to prove that someone would never do the same thing to a white person.

Last edited by BigT; 08-14-2019 at 10:47 AM.
  #59  
Old 08-15-2019, 01:35 PM
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I thought that being racist meant treating or regarding someone differently because of their race. Its racist to make someone sit in the back of the bus because they are black, while whites can sit wherever they want. Or make black drink from a separate water fountain. Or charge higher interest rates or deny housing etc. etc. In each of these cases there is something to compare the treatment to (bad grammar, I know). Its not for me to disprove the claim of racism by seeking examples where whites were treated the same. Its the responsibility of the person claiming racism to support the claim by producing evidence. In the other examples I mentioned there is plenty of evidence to support the claim of racism. In this particular case, not so much.
  #60  
Old 08-15-2019, 01:38 PM
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I thought that being racist meant treating or regarding someone differently because of their race. Its racist to make someone sit in the back of the bus because they are black, while whites can sit wherever they want. Or make black drink from a separate water fountain. Or charge higher interest rates or deny housing etc. etc. In each of these cases there is something to compare the treatment to (bad grammar, I know). Its not for me to disprove the claim of racism by seeking examples where whites were treated the same. Its the responsibility of the person claiming racism to support the claim by producing evidence. In the other examples I mentioned there is plenty of evidence to support the claim of racism. In this particular case, not so much.
It was racist in the context of America and American history. Even if the officers didn't intend it to be racist. By their poor judgment and (possibly) ignorance, they did something racist. Most sorts of every-day racism are from ignorance rather than malice. This is a bit more severe than every-day mundane occurrences, of course.
  #61  
Old 08-15-2019, 01:53 PM
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It was racist in the context of America and American history. Even if the officers didn't intend it to be racist. By their poor judgment and (possibly) ignorance, they did something racist. Most sorts of every-day racism are from ignorance rather than malice.
Exactly. Similarly, if a white legislator meets with a delegation of black constituents and offers them a photo-op luncheon, and what's served at the luncheon is fried chicken and watermelon, the legislator may not have intended to do something racist.

Maybe the legislator in question simply loves fried chicken and watermelon and has it for lunch every day and figured it would be the natural choice to serve anybody else. But given the longstanding use of those foods as symbols in US racist iconography, serving them to those people in those circumstances would definitely come across as racist.
  #62  
Old 08-15-2019, 02:10 PM
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... In the other examples I mentioned there is plenty of evidence to support the claim of racism. In this particular case, not so much.
It would be interesting to know when the last time this treatment was applied to a white guy.
  #63  
Old 08-15-2019, 02:13 PM
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It was racist in the context of America and American history. Even if the officers didn't intend it to be racist. By their poor judgment and (possibly) ignorance, they did something racist. Most sorts of every-day racism are from ignorance rather than malice. This is a bit more severe than every-day mundane occurrences, of course.
I work for the state government (not in Texas) and one thing we’re taught in our ethics training is that as a public employee, it’s not enough to avoid doing something wrong, it’s also important to make sure it doesn’t look like you’re doing something wrong. For example, if you have to perform an inspection at a bar that serves alcohol, you should park your state vehicle a block or two away so that it doesn’t look like you’re drinking on the job.
  #64  
Old 08-15-2019, 02:27 PM
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For example, if you have to perform an inspection at a bar that serves alcohol, you should park your state vehicle a block or two away so that it doesn’t look like you’re drinking on the job.
How do you avoid being seen going into or coming out of the bar?
  #65  
Old 08-15-2019, 02:51 PM
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How do you avoid being seen going into or coming out of the bar?
Unlike your car you don’t have a big sign on you. It’s not like we have uniforms, just badges.
  #66  
Old 08-15-2019, 04:25 PM
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Stupid? Yes. But the first headline I saw (Slate, I think) read "Cops on horseback drag man through Texas town". I can't find the article now but I'm certain the word "drag" was in the headline. I envisioned a man on his back or knees being, you know, dragged. The picture I saw showed the guy walking with the officers and the rope appeared slack. There was certainly no dragging going on.
Wait what?

You seem to be excusing the police because the man was walking, and was not actually exercising passive resistance and being dragged. So a headline used an incorrect word, and this makes it OK then? You think the problem was with the "dragging" part, and the rope around him was no big deal? Huh? Have you just beamed down to the planet?

Last edited by Euphonious Polemic; 08-15-2019 at 04:25 PM.
  #67  
Old 08-15-2019, 04:40 PM
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Wait what?

You seem to be excusing the police because the man was walking, and was not actually exercising passive resistance and being dragged. So a headline used an incorrect word, and this makes it OK then? You think the problem was with the "dragging" part, and the rope around him was no big deal? Huh? Have you just beamed down to the planet?
It’s not okay but being guided by rope as you walk is very different from being dragged. The headline is worthy of scorn like all sensationalized clickbait headlines that are misleading.

But the whole look and what it evokes, given America’s past, is really bad. The incident itself is still not okay, and criticizing a headline doesn’t make it less bad.
  #68  
Old 08-15-2019, 05:03 PM
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All I can think is what that poor man must have been going through. I imagine I'd have gone along with the policemen, led by rope... because they had guns and could kill me if I disobeyed or ran. Yet I'd also be terrified, wondering if I were being led to some worse death. Wondering if there's some chance I could get away safely.

The whole thing is so weird and inappropriate that the idea they were leading me to some more private spot for something awful (and unofficially sanctioned) to happen would seem quite plausible. It's not as though there's no history of this happening.

All they had to do was call a car and wait a little while. Parading a man, especially a black man, bound by rope feels more like a public display. At best, public humiliation as punishment.

Last edited by Trafalgar Laura; 08-15-2019 at 05:04 PM.
  #69  
Old 08-15-2019, 05:14 PM
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I’m wondering if a lawsuit is pending to declare a violation of human rights, particularly a violation of the 8th Amendment prohibition on cruel or unusual punishment.
  #70  
Old 08-20-2019, 03:41 PM
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Wait what?

You seem to be excusing the police because the man was walking, and was not actually exercising passive resistance and being dragged. So a headline used an incorrect word, and this makes it OK then? You think the problem was with the "dragging" part, and the rope around him was no big deal? Huh? Have you just beamed down to the planet?
There was no rope around him. Stop with the exaggerations. The rope was tied to his handcuffs. He was not dragged, he was walked. I don't know what the policy is for handling a resistant person in that situation. Probably wait for a paddy wagon, since that situation is supposed to be crowd control, not general transport.

I'm not saying what they did was right, but exaggerations like above just inflame the situation.

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There has also been no apology that what they did might seem racist.
That is not true. The police chief has admitted that they used poor judgement in this incident.
  #71  
Old 08-20-2019, 08:08 PM
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Irishman has called for the paddy wagon in a thread dealing with the question of police racism. Irony's last words were "Oh, man, I wish I'd thought of that".
  #72  
Old 08-20-2019, 09:23 PM
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So let me get this straight. You're upset not because anything bad actually happened, but because it looks bad? Not because anybody actually got lynched or anything, but because a rope kinda sorta reminds you of a lynching, and horses just seem to antiquated?

You realize cops use horses in 2019, right? And this doesn't matter a good god damn if they remind anybody of the 19th century? And that it also doesn't matter what something looks like because it's not the cops' job to look good?


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What cops do everywhere in the world ? Call for a car/paddy wagon, and wait.
But why? They didn't need a car. They had horses. The suspect could walk. Why would they call for a car? So they don't look bad?
  #73  
Old 08-20-2019, 10:05 PM
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And that it also doesn't matter what something looks like because it's not the cops' job to look good?
Tell it to the Galveston chief of police, or are you claiming you know his job better than he does?
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Chief Vernon L. Hale III of the Galveston police department said the officers “showed poor judgment” [...] Hale’s statement said that this practice is considered acceptable in certain situations but in this instance it was not used correctly.
  #74  
Old 08-20-2019, 10:16 PM
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Tell it to the Galveston chief of police, or are you claiming you know his job better than he does?
He's their boss. It matters what he thinks. I'm not their boss, and neither are you. It doesn't matter what we think. There are about 10,000 people being disciplined and written up by their bosses today, all across America. I don't care about them, either.

I just want to make sure that the SDMB's ire is pretty much based soley on optics, not, y'know, substance. If I'm wrong, if this is some sort of specific call out to some previous instance, something intended to actually have an effect on or "send a message to" the Galveston citizenry or whatever, please tell me.

But so far as I'm aware, the complaint here is that this is visually reminiscent of a general practice from 150 years ago, 50% of which is due to the presence of a horse, something commonplace in 2019 policing, not to mention ranches and races.
  #75  
Old 08-20-2019, 10:34 PM
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He's their boss. It matters what he thinks. I'm not their boss, and neither are you. It doesn't matter what we think. There are about 10,000 people being disciplined and written up by their bosses today, all across America. I don't care about them, either.

I just want to make sure that the SDMB's ire is pretty much based soley on optics, not, y'know, substance. If I'm wrong, if this is some sort of specific call out to some previous instance, something intended to actually have an effect on or "send a message to" the Galveston citizenry or whatever, please tell me.

But so far as I'm aware, the complaint here is that this is visually reminiscent of a general practice from 150 years ago, 50% of which is due to the presence of a horse, something commonplace in 2019 policing, not to mention ranches and races.
Yes. This is the problem. It’s a pretty big problem. As a public servant myself, if my agency had done something the equivalent of something this it would be a huge scandal and we’d probably be getting special training and messages against it for years.
  #76  
Old 08-20-2019, 10:41 PM
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He's their boss. It matters what he thinks.
Right, and what he thinks is that these officers violated correct standards of practice and "showed poor judgement". Presumably there are official policies backing up his assessment of the situation, unless you think the Galveston police chief is an arbitrary despot who gets to just rebuke his officers as a matter of irrational whim.

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But so far as I'm aware, the complaint here is that this is visually reminiscent of a general practice from 150 years ago
If you think lynching in the US ended 150 years ago, no wonder you're confused about why people are indignant about this incident.

Last edited by Kimstu; 08-20-2019 at 10:42 PM.
  #77  
Old 08-20-2019, 11:19 PM
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If you think lynching in the US ended 150 years ago, no wonder you're confused about why people are indignant about this incident.

No kidding. And there are threats often enough, even in 2019, such as hanging nooses around schools to show that the idea of lynching someone is a nifty weapon for the bigots.

Last edited by Monty; 08-20-2019 at 11:20 PM.
  #78  
Old Yesterday, 08:49 AM
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Lynching ended 150 years ago? Tell that to the relatives of Emmett Till and James Byrd jr.
  #79  
Old Yesterday, 09:09 AM
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For the most part, lynching didn't end a 150 years ago; it started 150 years ago. Lynching was a means to an end - the end being confining newly-freed blacks to lower class status.
  #80  
Old Yesterday, 09:55 AM
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So let me get this straight. You're upset not because anything bad actually happened, but because it looks bad?
Yeah. Because when it comes to race and public perception, what something looks like is a pretty big deal. This looks like an old-timey reenactment of a minstrel show.

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You realize cops use horses in 2019, right? And this doesn't matter a good god damn if they remind anybody of the 19th century? And that it also doesn't matter what something looks like because it's not the cops' job to look good?
You know how "All cops are bastards" used to mostly be used by ganster rappers and not, y'know, liberal white guys? And then this happened? And this happened? And this happened? And now trust in the police keeps going down among everyone who isn't white, republican, and an asshole?

Yeah, see, this is why it is absolutely the cops' job to "look good". If your community does not trust you, policing that community because hard to impossible. Pulling shit like this doesn't just look bad. It's extremely humiliating for the person involved, and for anyone who can identify with that person. It will give them yet another in a long list of very good reasons to not trust or go to or snitch to or help the cops in any given situation; yet another in a very long list of reasons to see cops not as "Officer Friendly, the helpful community safety officer" and as "Office Punisher, the guy with the itchy trigger finger who has some very strong subconscious biases about the place of the negro".

Last edited by Budget Player Cadet; Yesterday at 09:56 AM.
  #81  
Old Yesterday, 10:14 AM
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So let me get this straight. You're upset not because anything bad actually happened, but because it looks bad?
Yes, appearances matter. As Atamasama said, it's not enough to be ethical, one must preclude the appearance of being unethical. That was the lesson at my place of work for a government contractor as well.

Quote:
And that it also doesn't matter what something looks like because it's not the cops' job to look good?
It is important for cops to look good. A key part of their role is being a trusted part of the community to enforce laws and protect people. It's hard to do that role when they aren't trusted by a large segment of the community.

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But why? They didn't need a car. They had horses. The suspect could walk. Why would they call for a car? So they don't look bad?
Why should the suspect have to walk? Punishment? Of course they should have called for a car. The point was that the cars were all busy, so they decided not to wait. But they should have waited. Or else let the suspect ride double. Yeah, that's happening. Or let the suspect ride and walk the horse? No, not happening. I know, throw the suspect over the saddle like a pair of saddle bags. Yeah!
  #82  
Old Yesterday, 10:49 AM
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He's their boss. It matters what he thinks. I'm not their boss, and neither are you. It doesn't matter what we think.
With respect to the police, "we" are a mixture of customer and boss. We, as taxpayers, setup and fund the police force to work on our behalf to keep the peace and enforce the laws.

If the police use the power we have granted to them in ways that abuse the public, (without being necessary to keep the peace or enforce the law) what we think about it matters, and it should matter a whole hell of a lot.
  #83  
Old Yesterday, 10:50 AM
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And neverminding the way this makes the cops look, they should not do this also as a matter of respect for the accused. Lead a black man down the road with a rope? In light of what this means with respect to American history, rocks are truly required to be In the heads of anyone that doesn't see the inhumane aspect of this. The top cop saw it right away.
  #84  
Old Yesterday, 08:11 PM
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So let me get this straight.

Yes. Let's.

Quote:
You're upset not because anything bad actually happened, but because it looks bad?

Something bad did happen. White LEOs put used a rope to force a Black man to walk through town. It actually does not matter if the cops were on horseback, were walking alongside him, or were in an automobile while holding the free end of the rope. Well, that last one is definitley worse than the others. One would hope you do not need an explanation for that.

It looks bad because it is bad.

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Not because anybody actually got lynched or anything, but because a rope kinda sorta reminds you of a lynching, and horses just seem to antiquated?

"Or anything". Guess what. "Or anything" actually happened, and it is bad. No, the Black man was not actually lynched. But there sure is history--quite modern history, too, mind you--of Blacks getting lynched, even in Texas. Guess what all those lynchings had in common?

Quote:
You realize cops use horses in 2019, right? And this doesn't matter a good god damn if they remind anybody of the 19th century? And that it also doesn't matter what something looks like because it's not the cops' job to look good?

That's not the fucking issue here.

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Originally Posted by Chessic Sense View Post
But why? They didn't need a car. They had horses. The suspect could walk. Why would they call for a car? So they don't look bad?

They should call for a car so they don't give the impression that they're tying a fucking rope around a Black man and parading him through town. They should call fo r a car for transport. This might shock you, but it's not the suspect's responsibility to transport himself to the hoosegow. If a fucking car is not available, here's a nifty idea: put the suspect on the horse with the cop.

Are you actually that unaware of the country's modern history?
  #85  
Old Yesterday, 08:22 PM
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I'm honestly trying to figure out why a police department would even have a policy "for escorting a prisoner through town with a rope tied to his handcuffs and/or shackles while the escorting officer is mounted on a horse".
  #86  
Old Yesterday, 08:50 PM
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I'm honestly trying to figure out why a police department would even have a policy "for escorting a prisoner through town with a rope tied to his handcuffs and/or shackles while the escorting officer is mounted on a horse".
Because it’s in Texas.
  #87  
Old Yesterday, 11:27 PM
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Because it’s in Texas.
Thread decrying racism makes bigoted, stereotypical statement for about the 8th time.

Come on....this could have happened in....well....Arizona too. Louisiana if it were an escaped prisoner.
  #88  
Old Today, 12:17 AM
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Thread decrying racism makes bigoted, stereotypical statement for about the 8th time.

Come on....this could have happened in....well....Arizona too. Louisiana if it were an escaped prisoner.
I don’t disagree.

Or Florida, but anything can happen there.
  #89  
Old Today, 12:29 AM
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But only if Florida Man is involved.
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