Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #51  
Old 08-14-2019, 12:46 PM
cmkeller's Avatar
cmkeller is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: New York, NY, USA
Posts: 13,414
ASL v 2.0:

Quote:
Well, I mean, thereís also the bit about how if a master beats his slave and the slave dies, itís okay as long as a couple days passed between the beating and the death.
Not exactly. The master is only off the hook for the death if the slave was able to stand up under his own power within 24 hours of the beating. If the slave died without ever having enough health to stand up again, the master is liable to the death penalty no matter how many days elapsed.

Quote:
Oh, and how even a fellow Israelite can be enslaved indefinitely, so long as you give them a wife and they decide they donít want to leave the wife you have them in exchange for their freedom. Because the wife is the slaveowner's property no matter what.
The key word above is and they decide. If the Israelite slave opts for continued servitude (and that's whether or not the master had given him a wife), then this arrangement is allowed. He cannot be enslaved indefinitely against his will.

ftg:

Quote:
Another reference in the OT to limiting slavery are some passages suggesting that slaves were to be freed either in Sabbatical years or Jubilee years. (Or after 7 years in general. Or maybe it applied only to indentured servants. Or ...)

These sort of things implied a negative view of permanent slavery.
That's specifically with Israelite slaves, though. And the reasoning given is that Israelites are servants of G-d based on the covenant at Sinai, and therefore no human being may consider them to permanently be "his" servant/slave. There's no such negative view of the institution of slavery in general in the Bible.
__________________
"Sherlock Holmes once said that once you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the answer. I, however, do not like to eliminate the impossible. The impossible often has a kind of integrity to it that the merely improbable lacks."
-- Douglas Adams's Dirk Gently, Holistic Detective
  #52  
Old 08-14-2019, 01:23 PM
ASL v2.0 is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmkeller View Post
The key word above is and they decide. If the Israelite slave opts for continued servitude (and that's whether or not the master had given him a wife), then this arrangement is allowed. He cannot be enslaved indefinitely against his will.
But, in the case of a wife and/or children being involved, there would be significant coercion. I donít think we disagree in generalóthat the Bible isnít exactly anti-slaveryóand I think those caveats in Exodus that basically lay out how a shrewd master can hope to coerce a male slave (again, the women and children didnít even have this option open to them) into a lifetime of servitude are important to bring up when someone points to the preceding verse(s) as if to suggest that biblical slavery was no worse than indentured servitude or imprisonment of POWs/criminals.
  #53  
Old 08-14-2019, 01:37 PM
MrDibble's Avatar
MrDibble is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Cape Town, South Africa &
Posts: 25,877
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alessan View Post
I'm not saying the systems are the same - obviously, what we have now is much, much better. I'm saying that it's a sliding scale, (vastly) different degrees of the same basic concept.
Possibly. But serfdom and slavery are hard against each other at one end of it, and there's a lot of scale before you get to modern taxes.
Quote:
And I disagree that the serfs got nothing in return for their labor: they got government.
The fact that other people got the same thing without having to do forced labour gives the lie to that notion, IMO.
Quote:
They got courts
The court of first recourse for a serf being his owner...can't see much wrong with that idea
Quote:
and roads
...that they couldn't use to travel away without permission...
Quote:
and rudimentary economic planning
What? Like they couldn't think for themselves without their Lord doing it for them?
That sounds like how some people talk about people on welfare today.
Quote:
and walls to hide behind
Generally not. That's the difference between living on the manor and living in a city or as a courtier.
Quote:
and other things civilization needed in order to exist. In retrospect, it wasn't that great a system, but it was a system, which is better than no system at all.
False dilemma. The alternative to serfdom was not anarchy, it was a society of free men and voluntary exchange of labour for value. Not something completely unknown, even in that time and place.

Last edited by MrDibble; 08-14-2019 at 01:40 PM.
  #54  
Old 08-14-2019, 01:51 PM
ASL v2.0 is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrDibble View Post
That sounds like how some people talk about people on welfare today.
Slavery too in some circles. As in, "Plantation life wasn’t so bad. They got fed, they got shelter, and some of the masters even allowed them a degree of self-government (subject to the master's kindly oversight, of course). Way better than what factory owners provided to Irish immigrants in places like New York, barely scraping by from day to day and never knowing if they'd have work or food tomorrow."

The usual sort of pro-slavery apologetics.

Not that I think Alessan falls into that category (the pro-slavery or slavery apologist category), but I think it’s informative that the arguments presented in favor of serfdom being unlike slavery in key respects sound an awful lot like the arguments put forth for how slavery "wasn’t so bad."

Last edited by ASL v2.0; 08-14-2019 at 01:53 PM.
  #55  
Old 08-14-2019, 02:28 PM
cmkeller's Avatar
cmkeller is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: New York, NY, USA
Posts: 13,414
ASL v2.0:

Quote:
But, in the case of a wife and/or children being involved, there would be significant coercion.
Only if the slave gets too attached to them - and more so than to (possibly) the family he had on the outside.

The Torah expects that an Israelite should not feel greater emotional attachment to master-owned slaves than to returning to being a free member of Israelite society, nor to servitude to a human master rather than being answerable only to G-d. But the Torah does understand that human beings can develop non-ideal feelings, and allows one who has developed such attachment to stay enslaved.
__________________
"Sherlock Holmes once said that once you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the answer. I, however, do not like to eliminate the impossible. The impossible often has a kind of integrity to it that the merely improbable lacks."
-- Douglas Adams's Dirk Gently, Holistic Detective
  #56  
Old 08-14-2019, 02:44 PM
ftg's Avatar
ftg is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Not the PNW :-(
Posts: 19,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmkeller View Post
That's specifically with Israelite slaves, though. And the reasoning given is that Israelites are servants of G-d based on the covenant at Sinai, and therefore no human being may consider them to permanently be "his" servant/slave. There's no such negative view of the institution of slavery in general in the Bible.
Again, it's the Bible. Interpretations for everything are all over the place. I couched my post in such a way that I was aware of such vagaries.

A post asserting a specific interpretation doesn't hold much water with me. A lot, and I mean a lot, of people, including experts, will disagree with what you wrote.

Oh, another place where the Bible isn't so positive about slavery regards the Hebrews in Egypt thing. How they ended up as slaves, how they were treated and what they did about it. And how they continued to remember these events to this day. That makes up a pretty large chunk of the Pentateuch.
  #57  
Old 08-14-2019, 02:54 PM
ASL v2.0 is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmkeller View Post
The Torah expects that an Israelite should not feel greater emotional attachment to master-owned slaves than to returning to being a free member of Israelite society, nor to servitude to a human master rather than being answerable only to G-d. But the Torah does understand that human beings can develop non-ideal feelings, and allows one who has developed such attachment to stay enslaved.
Gosh, thatís real compassionate, making allowances for us flawed humans to love our families and so be enslaved with them for our lifetime rather than be split apart. Ainít choice grand!
  #58  
Old 08-14-2019, 02:55 PM
cmkeller's Avatar
cmkeller is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: New York, NY, USA
Posts: 13,414
ftg:

Quote:
How they ended up as slaves, how they were treated
Sure, the Bible definitely frowns on MISTREATMENT of slaves, but not necessarily on owning them.

Quote:
and what they did about it. And how they continued to remember these events to this day. That makes up a pretty large chunk of the Pentateuch.
Well, because "they" didn't do anything about it, G-D freed them, and they're supposed to remember that, because a special, personal-level relationship with G-d is what the Israelite/Jewish religion is all about. The emphasis is our personal gratitude toward G-d, not simple condemnation of the fact of their slavery in general.
__________________
"Sherlock Holmes once said that once you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the answer. I, however, do not like to eliminate the impossible. The impossible often has a kind of integrity to it that the merely improbable lacks."
-- Douglas Adams's Dirk Gently, Holistic Detective
  #59  
Old 08-14-2019, 03:28 PM
Derleth is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Missoula, Montana, USA
Posts: 21,174
Quote:
Originally Posted by ftg View Post
Oh, another place where the Bible isn't so positive about slavery regards the Hebrews in Egypt thing. How they ended up as slaves, how they were treated and what they did about it. And how they continued to remember these events to this day. That makes up a pretty large chunk of the Pentateuch.
Right: Slavery is unconscionable when it's part of the origin myth of the favored people. When it's the favored people doing the enslaving, well, that's just time and place and as long as you don't literally beat anyone to death, it isn't anything a deity would turn your water into blood over. Truly a moral for our times.
__________________
"Ridicule is the only weapon that can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them."
If you don't stop to analyze the snot spray, you are missing that which is best in life. - Miller
I'm not sure why this is, but I actually find this idea grosser than cannibalism. - Excalibre, after reading one of my surefire million-seller business plans.
  #60  
Old 08-14-2019, 03:30 PM
Little Nemo is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Western New York
Posts: 81,386
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrDibble View Post
Personally, I think saying paying taxes are a form of slavery is both disingenuous and pretty insulting to actual slaves.
And I feel the same way about you comparing serfdom to genuine slavery. It reminds me of the old southern apologists who compared the lives of factory workers in the north to slavery.
  #61  
Old 08-14-2019, 03:34 PM
Little Nemo is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Western New York
Posts: 81,386
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrDibble View Post
The alternative to serfdom was not anarchy, it was a society of free men and voluntary exchange of labour for value. Not something completely unknown, even in that time and place.
I absolutely agree there are better forms of government. But to repeat my argument from earlier, people living in China have an oppressive government - but they're not slaves.
  #62  
Old 08-14-2019, 03:36 PM
MrDibble's Avatar
MrDibble is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Cape Town, South Africa &
Posts: 25,877
Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
And I feel the same way about you comparing serfdom to genuine slavery. It reminds me of the old southern apologists who compared the lives of factory workers in the north to slavery.
Depending on the factory, it was comparable to slavery.

But hey, a child making 50c for a ten-hour day and constant risk of death and injury, that's just like you working to pay taxes...
  #63  
Old 08-14-2019, 03:39 PM
MrDibble's Avatar
MrDibble is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Cape Town, South Africa &
Posts: 25,877
Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
I absolutely agree there are better forms of government. But to repeat my argument from earlier, people living in China have an oppressive government - but they're not slaves.
I agree (mostly - there's still forms of slavery in China) but that isn't my point - saying "but at least serfs had a government" is not a positive. They'd have had a government of some sort regardless. Having a government doesn't necessitate serfdom.
  #64  
Old 08-14-2019, 06:06 PM
Little Nemo is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Western New York
Posts: 81,386
I still think you're trivializing slavery.
  #65  
Old 08-14-2019, 07:41 PM
Sage Rat's Avatar
Sage Rat is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Howdy
Posts: 21,668
Quote:
Originally Posted by ASL v2.0 View Post
Slavery too in some circles. As in, "Plantation life wasn’t so bad. They got fed, they got shelter, and some of the masters even allowed them a degree of self-government (subject to the master's kindly oversight, of course). Way better than what factory owners provided to Irish immigrants in places like New York, barely scraping by from day to day and never knowing if they'd have work or food tomorrow."

The usual sort of pro-slavery apologetics.

Not that I think Alessan falls into that category (the pro-slavery or slavery apologist category), but I think it’s informative that the arguments presented in favor of serfdom being unlike slavery in key respects sound an awful lot like the arguments put forth for how slavery "wasn’t so bad."
From a theoretical standpoint, one might make the argument. This gets well into GD territory but, I think, the key difference is the psychological impact.

If you were untouchable or eta in Asia, for example, you are being told every day of your life that you're unclean, disgusting, and vile. And while I haven't seen any first person accounts from someone in that class, I would have to imagine that being treated in that way takes its toll on you and how you look at the world.

A serf, in Europe, might be forced to marry someone that they don't want to by their master, they might be whipped for not working or not producing what product was demanded, etc. all based simply on the whims of the master. But society and their overlords still largely viewed them as adults. The Lord of the land is more like a mayor than like a dad or a jailor.

I don't know what medieval slavery was like, so I can't much opine on how the experience would have differed there. But with American slavery you're getting all your meals, you're being whipped for not working, and so on, but you're probably being whipped more and with less a sense of being treated like a human. You're being whipped in the way that an animal is whipped for misbehaving rather than as an adult who has broken a decree. If you're a woman, your body is being used as a fleshlight - you're just a mildly aware object that's warm. Your owners view you and train you to think of yourself as a child or beast of burden rather than as a human being with all the same abilities and potential of any other human.

Imagine living your while life being told that you're only able to develop to the level of a 5 year old, and being treated as though that were so.

Food and shelter, corporal punishment, etc. all be as it may, the way that society treats you and tells you to view yourself is quite arguably (IMO) to have been the most damaging aspect. I would expect that to be the key factor of differentiation between serfs and slaves.

And while it may be that, in history, some slaves in some societies were teachers and well respected. Of course, the Lord probably could and did whip or beat those people as well, if they weren't showing proper respect. Older societies were strange. Respect and immunity from suddenly finding yourself being treated like a child were not correlated.

Some sex slaves might have been more like living fleshlights in the eyes of their owner, and lived their lives viewing themselves as having no value except to have their body used. Others, in other societies, might have been more like concubines with the chance to hold a somewhat meaningful position within the court.

You would really need to narrow down to a specific situation and try to wrap your brain around the differences in culture and how that might impact you. Judging how people would have felt about things based on how we would in modern day is probably misleading - like thinking about Roman sexuality in terms of gay vs straight instead of receiver vs giver. Having not lived in a strongly class-based society, it's probably hard to envision how the people would have interpreted things like this. But we can certainly say, knowing that human beings are all capable of holding the same level of respectability as any other person of any race or gender, that it was supremely fucked up that our ancestors convinced probably 99% of the population that they were inherently capped out at a certain level, punished them in all cases where someone argued otherwise, and yet that it was all just arbitrary.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 08-14-2019 at 07:42 PM.
  #66  
Old 08-14-2019, 09:29 PM
Johnny Bravo's Avatar
Johnny Bravo is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: The Swamp
Posts: 7,758
Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
And I feel the same way about you comparing serfdom to genuine slavery. It reminds me of the old southern apologists who compared the lives of factory workers in the north to slavery.
There's no such thing as "genuine slavery."

What you mean is "chattel slavery," which is one particular (and particularly egregious) form of forced labor. But not the only kind. Not by far. And it's not trivial to differentiate between different forms of forced labor.

If anything is problematic, it's saying that chattel slavery is the only "genuine slavery," because it's the only form of slavery which has been more or less eliminated from society. All the other kinds are still going strong, all over the world.
  #67  
Old 08-15-2019, 02:56 AM
MrDibble's Avatar
MrDibble is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Cape Town, South Africa &
Posts: 25,877
Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
I still think you're trivializing slavery.
I think you're trivializing serfdom.

Once again, where I'm coming from - I'm a Lumper. As far as I see it, there's 2 broad categories of people - Worker, and Parasite, and it only serves the interests of the Parasites for Workers to subdivide themselves into groupings defined by picayune distinctions (Le droit du pauvre est un mot creux) when the only distinction that matters is whether you are free or not.

Paix entre nous, guerre aux tyrans!
  #68  
Old 08-15-2019, 03:03 AM
MrDibble's Avatar
MrDibble is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Cape Town, South Africa &
Posts: 25,877
One thing - when I'm saying "slavery", I do mean slavery as the whole institution, ancient and modern, but when I said feudalism was basically a rebranding of slavery, I mean specifically of the old Roman estate slavery. So, not American chattel slavery specifically, which was at the shittier end of the slavery spectrum (but still not Congo Free State- or Roman mines-level bad)

Last edited by MrDibble; 08-15-2019 at 03:03 AM.
  #69  
Old 08-15-2019, 03:05 AM
Sage Rat's Avatar
Sage Rat is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Howdy
Posts: 21,668
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrDibble View Post
I think you're trivializing serfdom.

Once again, where I'm coming from - I'm a Lumper. As far as I see it, there's 2 broad categories of people - Worker, and Parasite, and it only serves the interests of the Parasites for Workers to subdivide themselves into groupings defined by picayune distinctions (Le droit du pauvre est un mot creux) when the only distinction that matters is whether you are free or not.

Paix entre nous, guerre aux tyrans!
I fail to see what that has to do with anything.

Children are all children, ergo there's no difference between cutting the feet off some to make stew of and not others. It's all the same diff since they're all in the same lump.

I presume (or at least hope) that's not your stance, but I'm not seeing how to get from what you said to some argument that makes sense to the topic.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 08-15-2019 at 03:05 AM.
  #70  
Old 08-15-2019, 06:47 AM
Xema is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 12,177
Quote:
Originally Posted by md2000 View Post
... the point is, we see slavery through the model of the southern plantation system - as a distinctive separate ethnic group that was considered subhuman by the slave owners and they were treated like cattle.

To my mind this was unique. There were plenty of societies where slaves were as subjugated and devoid of rights, but none I can think of where this was associated with the same determination that the slave race was significantly inferior (beyond the usual jingoistic feelings); certainly few where slaves were exclusively one foreign race.
To view this as unique you must be ignoring the realities of slavery in South America, which definitely was implemented along racial lines, and involved far more people being treated generally much more brutally.
  #71  
Old 08-15-2019, 06:55 AM
engineer_comp_geek's Avatar
engineer_comp_geek is offline
Robot Mod in Beta Testing
Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 24,509
Moderator Action

This has strayed out of GQ territory. Since the OP has been pretty well covered factually, instead of trying to steer this thread back into GQ territory, I am going to move it to GD instead.

Moving thread from GQ to GD.
  #72  
Old 08-15-2019, 07:25 AM
MrDibble's Avatar
MrDibble is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Cape Town, South Africa &
Posts: 25,877
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sage Rat View Post
I fail to see what that has to do with anything.

Children are all children, ergo there's no difference between cutting the feet off some to make stew of and not others. It's all the same diff since they're all in the same lump.

I presume (or at least hope) that's not your stance, but I'm not seeing how to get from what you said to some argument that makes sense to the topic.
Sorry, what the fuck is that stupid analogy supposed to even mean?
  #73  
Old 08-15-2019, 09:51 AM
md2000 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 14,905
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xema View Post
To view this as unique you must be ignoring the realities of slavery in South America, which definitely was implemented along racial lines, and involved far more people being treated generally much more brutally.
I think in several previous posts I referred to the tropical Americas model of slavery, not just the US south. But yes, there are degrees - the sugar plantations of the Caribbean were notorious for working slaves to death in a matter of years.

Whereas, the problem with southern cotton plantations was the opposite. there was little to do for months, then there was the cotton harvest which apparently was a dirty hellish job - something I read said "cotton-pickin' hands" referre to the fact cotton was sharp and prickly and fingers got covered with painful bloody pricks and became heavily calloused very quickly. No free men wanted to wait around unpaid for 8 months and then do such crappy work.

The distinction is that slavery in different societies and conditions ranged from basically free live-in servants with room and board, to badly mistreated human cattle. Roman slaves could own property, save money, buy their freedom, eventually become citizens. They were essentially humans with a different living arrangement. It should be no surprise that some social models accepted additional provisos, such as freedom after 7 years.

The tropical Americas model relied on the concept that black Africans were subhuman, mentally unfit, and suited only to be treated as cattle. It was based on the premise that if the ruling class repeated this often enough to themselves, it would become true. (Needless to say, the Dred Scott case showed that this was not the case for many white people, regardless what the courts decided. Dred Scott was left in charge of property management for his mistress.).

Neither model is desirable, but both are not the same.
  #74  
Old 08-15-2019, 09:58 AM
MrDibble's Avatar
MrDibble is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Cape Town, South Africa &
Posts: 25,877
Quote:
Originally Posted by md2000 View Post
Roman slaves could own property, save money, buy their freedom, eventually become citizens.
Not ALL Roman Slaves...
  #75  
Old 08-15-2019, 10:06 AM
Sage Rat's Avatar
Sage Rat is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Howdy
Posts: 21,668
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrDibble View Post
Sorry, what the fuck is that stupid analogy supposed to even mean?
Sage Rat: You said something that makes no sense. It sounds like <thing that makes no sense>
MrDibble: That makes no sense. WTF?
Sage Rat: Yes.
  #76  
Old 08-15-2019, 11:36 AM
MrDibble's Avatar
MrDibble is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Cape Town, South Africa &
Posts: 25,877
OK, just commenting to be heard, I get it now.

What I said made perfect sense. Even the French bits.
  #77  
Old 08-15-2019, 12:33 PM
Little Nemo is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Western New York
Posts: 81,386
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrDibble View Post
I think you're trivializing serfdom.
I have no problem with that. I think that the suffering a serf experienced, while it certainly existed, was trivial in comparison to the suffering a slave endured.

Keep in mind that when you say that serfdom was as bad as slavery, you're also saying that slavery was no worse than serfdom.
  #78  
Old 08-15-2019, 12:36 PM
iiandyiiii's Avatar
iiandyiiii is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 34,976
Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
I have no problem with that. I think that the suffering a serf experienced, while it certainly existed, was trivial in comparison to the suffering a slave endured.

Keep in mind that when you say that serfdom was as bad as slavery, you're also saying that slavery was no worse than serfdom.
We don't have a lord. We're an autonomous collective. We're an anarcho-syndicalist commune. We take it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week. But all the decisions of that officer have to be ratified at a special biweekly meeting. By a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs, but by a two-thirds majority in the case of more...
  #79  
Old 08-15-2019, 01:40 PM
Sage Rat's Avatar
Sage Rat is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Howdy
Posts: 21,668
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrDibble View Post
OK, just commenting to be heard, I get it now.
No, I'm asking what does "there are only two kinds of people: Crooks and Joe-blows" have to do with "serfs were treated better than slaves"? I genuinely fail to see the relationship between these two statements, let alone how one is somehow an argument against the other.

I'm not doubting that you're making an argument, I'm simply saying that I'm not following.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 08-15-2019 at 01:42 PM.
  #80  
Old 08-15-2019, 02:13 PM
MrDibble's Avatar
MrDibble is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Cape Town, South Africa &
Posts: 25,877
Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
I have no problem with that. I think that the suffering a serf experienced, while it certainly existed, was trivial in comparison to the suffering a slave endured.
You sure you want to go with "trivial"?
Quote:
Keep in mind that when you say that serfdom was as bad as slavery, you're also saying that slavery was no worse than serfdom.
Overall, collectively, I'm saying they're not really distinguishable in any way that matters. So yes, I am saying that.

Last edited by MrDibble; 08-15-2019 at 02:14 PM.
  #81  
Old 08-15-2019, 02:22 PM
MrDibble's Avatar
MrDibble is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Cape Town, South Africa &
Posts: 25,877
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sage Rat View Post
No, I'm asking what does "there are only two kinds of people: Crooks and Joe-blows" have to do with "serfs were treated better than slaves"? I genuinely fail to see the relationship between these two statements, let alone how one is somehow an argument against the other.
I'm saying the differences between serfs and slaves, and treatment of either, is so tiny that it doesn't bear serious consideration, compared to the differences between both as a class, and their Lords/Masters.

So any argument that attempts to emphasize their petty differences, rather than their similarities, is a counterproductive distraction, and only serves the interests of their oppressors (or their oppressors' good names, at any rate) and all current oppressors of that same ilk.
Quote:
I'm not doubting that you're making an argument, I'm simply saying that I'm not following.
That's clear.
  #82  
Old 08-15-2019, 02:30 PM
Derleth is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Missoula, Montana, USA
Posts: 21,174
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrDibble View Post
As far as I see it, there's 2 broad categories of people - Worker, and Parasite
Hm. I never knew you were anti-welfare.
  #83  
Old 08-15-2019, 03:34 PM
MrDibble's Avatar
MrDibble is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Cape Town, South Africa &
Posts: 25,877
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derleth View Post
Hm. I never knew you were anti-welfare.
I'm totally for welfare.
But then you know I don't think anyone on welfare is a Parasite, so this is just performance art on your part. How droll! What fun it is to mock the exploited! Such a laugh!
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:22 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright © 2018 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017